Bob Bagby: How Sponsorships Are Changing in the Fishing Industry

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 360, Bob Bagby...

Bob Bagby: The most valuable, I think, falls into a couple of buckets. It's their ability to produce good content in a number of forms that best embodies your brand — that's on brand. And secondly, it's their ability to reach as many of your target consumers as they can. That can happen with them participating in particular tournaments, working shows, doing things with outdoor writers, whether those are national or local — wherever they can partner with somebody, either because they have an audience, an outdoor show as an example, or they're using a vehicle such as an outdoor writer to generate content. I think that's the couple of things in a nutshell you're looking at. How do they take your brand messaging and amplify it — that's the best way to say it, I think.

Bob Bagby: Hey, folks. I'm Bob Bagby, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.

Meet Bob Bagby

Tom Rowland: Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast today. One of the most frequently asked questions that I get is associated with sponsorship. Sponsorship is something that seems to be a big mystery to a lot of people — and it was a big mystery to me too. It was something I had no idea how someone would get sponsored by a company, and I had a lot to learn.

The gentleman we have on the podcast today is one of the people who taught me a tremendous amount about sponsorship — through working with him, giving me a chance, and then showing me the right way to do things, and pointing out some of the wrong ways too. His name is Bob Bagby, and he worked in the industry for over thirty years, managing relationships with Bill Dance, Kevin VanDam, Gerald Swindle, Shaw Grigsby, myself, Rich Tudor, Robert Trussett, and on and on down the line.

He comes to us with a different perspective, being on the other side of the table, and he's been really kind today to give us a little bit of his knowledge. And his knowledge is deep — it can help anybody who listens, either to become better at approaching a company for sponsorship, or to figure out how to align yourself with the right people if you're on the other side of the table. That was the idea for the podcast — that's what I was trying to accomplish, and I hope I did.

Alright, stay tuned for a great conversation with Bob Bagby. Bob Bagby, how you doing, buddy?

Bob Bagby: I'm doing good. How about yourself?

Tom Rowland: Man, can't complain. It's my birthday, actually.

Bob Bagby: It is? Well, happy birthday.

Tom Rowland: Did you know that?

Bob Bagby: No — it's my oldest son's birthday.

Tom Rowland: Is that right? August 19th. Well, now we've dated the podcast.

Bob Bagby: Are you gonna say?

Tom Rowland: Oh, I'll be happy to say — I'm 52. I can't wait to be 55, though.

Bob Bagby: Really?

Tom Rowland: Well, that's because I do those silly fitness competitions, and right now I'm expected to do the same weights as the 18-year-old and 25-year-old elite athletes. Quite honestly, it's more than a little fatiguing. So at 55, the weights drop — I'm really looking forward to that. But this one's not really special, there's no big milestone. I already passed 50, and now I'm just at 52. It's kind of like just another day, honestly.

Bob Bagby: The only weight I'm doing is fifty-pound bags of corn in Deerfield.

Tom Rowland: I can see that — you got Bucky right behind you. Or, though, that might not be Bucky — you got one that you have a nickname for.

Bob Bagby: Yes, and I do silly things with him on social media.

Tom Rowland: I know, I know — I follow you on social media. So just so people are aware — instead of waiting till the very end to give people the guest's social media handles, when there's only two or three people left listening, I've decided it's better to talk about that right now. How does somebody follow you on social media?

Bob Bagby: Well, my company is Lone Arrow Marketing — on Instagram and Facebook. Obviously my company is Lone Arrow Marketing, which is a hunt-fish consulting business. And the reason it's Lone Arrow is because it's me.

Tom Rowland: Well, that's a little bit of a change.

Bob Bagby: Arrow.

Tom Rowland: So just to give you some sort of an introduction — my friend Bob Bagby worked for Zebco for thirty years. Not only that — you did a number of things at Zebco and Quantum, but you managed a lot of the sponsorship relationships and had a very personal relationship with people like Bill Dance, Shaw Grigsby, myself, Kevin VanDam, probably with Major League Fishing and Bassmaster and FLW, and on and on — every magazine writer that's ever written a word about freshwater or saltwater fishing. Probably a very, very extensive résumé in sponsorship.

And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today — other than the funny stories we have in common, and many that we don't, which I want to go over one day — one of the big reasons I wanted to do this podcast is because I want to talk about sponsorship. I have a lot of people who ask about it, and I want to talk about it in a way that serves the companies in the hunting, fishing, and outdoor industry, so that athletes, anglers, hunters, and sportsmen coming looking for sponsorship have a much better idea of what they can give a company that's of value — so nobody's wasting any time. And I also want it to serve the anglers, hunters, and athletes who are seeking sponsorship and don't really understand what that relationship might look like, because it's kind of confusing.

So you're very interesting to me, because it'd be great to talk to Kevin or Bill Dance about sponsorship — they obviously know a tremendous amount about it, but they're on one side of the table. You're on the other side — you're the one making the decision, deciding this is a better fit for our marketing than that guy, or this is a long-term relationship versus that. That's a lot of the stuff I want to talk to you about.

I just want everybody to know — this isn't just a “how-to” on sponsorship. Hopefully both parties, the companies that want sponsorship relationships and the anglers and hunters that want them, will come away with a better idea of how to make that happen.

Bob Bagby: Yep.

What Sponsorship Really Means

Tom Rowland: So let's go back to just — from your perspective, what would you consider sponsorship? You hear that term thrown around a lot — “sponsorship,” or “I've got my sponsors,” or “we sponsor this guy.” In your opinion, from a manufacturing point of view, or now from your consulting point of view — explain that relationship.

Bob Bagby: Well, I'd say if you boil it down to its essence, companies are looking for sponsorships — or any other touch points they have — as an extension of that brand, to convey the essence and the persona of that brand. So if companies take sponsorship as one element of their marketing messaging seriously, they're trying to find the right fit with whoever — an angler, a hunter, an influencer, whatever — that best embodies the personality and persona of their brand. Because with all the touch points available now, that potential sponsored person is going to be seen in a lot of different environments, and they'd better be representing your brand the right way.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. And when you're making that decision — like I remember when we first started our relationship, you and Zebco Quantum had a major goal: to get into saltwater. That's gonna be a major goal — you're gonna have budget behind it, and it's your job to go develop the relationships that help you accomplish your marketing goals. So how would you do that, or how does a company do that, when you have that objective set in front of you?

Bob Bagby: Well, it obviously starts with a marketing plan. We'd typically put together what we'd call a long-range plan — a rolling three-year thing. So, you mentioned saltwater — at some point we said, we're gonna penetrate the more premium side of the saltwater market. What do we need to do from a product development standpoint, a go-to-market standpoint, sales and distribution — though that wasn't necessarily my major focus. You're lining up your goals and objectives, saying, what are we trying to accomplish? If you're entering a new market space, typically the first goal is just impressions — introducing yourself to the market and generating as many quality impressions as you can, so potential consumers know you're in the space.

Tom Rowland: Okay. And how are you gonna do that? Are you gonna specifically say, okay, we need to hook up with some anglers we think are gonna represent the brand the way we want, or are you gonna look to magazines, television shows? What's the plan at that point?

Bob Bagby: Well, the easy answer is yes — all the fancy terminology now, paid media, earned media, things like that. But I don't think anybody, particularly in an enthusiast category, and as you well know, most brands have cut back on traditional media — print and TV. But there's three, if not four or five, dedicated networks to hunting and fishing. The enthusiast category — it's very easy to target that consumer. There's a lot of TV and print that consumers still consume, as well as very targeted social — blogs, whatever the other digital vehicles are. So I still see most brands allocating their marketing dollars all the way from mass communication down to very targeted communication. And that's where pro staff or influencers come in, to me — almost in that grassroots PR, very targeted to a type of fishing, whether that's bass fishing or professional angling, whatever it is, as just part of that overall marketing mix.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. And when you identify some people that you may want, or the type of person you may want, how does that next step happen?

Bob Bagby: Well, I think it's a two-way street. There were cases where folks came to us — a rep in the field, another angler, an outdoor writer, whoever — saying, this person is awesome, you should check them out. The other side is folks reaching out to us directly, and that's what separates the folks who succeed — your ability to market yourself is huge in today's world. It could happen either way. And me personally, we always felt like quality over quantity was the goal. We tended to align with the who's-who in certain categories, folks we thought could generate a large audience — not that we didn't have plenty of discounted product deals with various guides and so on, but there are other brands out there that do more of the “sign up as many folks as I can” approach. I think the mindset there — and I'm not saying it's right or wrong — is that if the consumer sees, “oh my gosh, it seems like everybody's sponsored by this reel company or this lure company, it must be the thing.” There's an element of that. But it all comes down to dollars — your marketing budget, whatever that is: a hundred thousand, a million, ten million dollars. And you've got to decide — if I do this, I can't do that, and where do I think the best bang for the buck is?

Tom Rowland: Well, that's pretty cool as far as how that works. Now, when someone comes to you, what do you think are the most valuable things a person can bring to a company, and what are the least valuable things?

Bob Bagby: Well, in a nutshell, to me the most valuable falls into a couple of buckets: their ability to produce good content in a number of forms that embodies your brand — that's on-brand — and secondly, their ability to reach as many of your target consumers as they can. That can happen through participating in tournaments, working shows, doing things with outdoor writers, national or local, wherever they can partner with somebody — because they have an audience, an outdoor show as an example, or they're using a vehicle like an outdoor writer to generate content. I think that's the couple of things in a nutshell you're looking at — how do they take your brand messaging and amplify it, that's the best way to say it, I think.

How the Internet Changed Sponsorship

Tom Rowland: So as things have changed — certainly from my first sponsorship opportunity to now — we've had significant changes. The internet being a major one. Before the internet, it was basically television shows, newspapers, and magazines. Now you take that and multiply it exponentially with social media, blogs, websites, YouTube, Waypoint — all of those things amplify the message greatly, and give more people the ability to have a large audience, right? So how do you think that changed over your career? How did you start making decisions as these new media platforms became available — are some more valuable than others?

Bob Bagby: You know, one thing I think about — if I think back to the typical pro contract we'd have had fifteen or twenty years ago, it'd be talking about wearing logos of a certain size on your jersey, wearing one of our hats on one day of the tournament, things like that. Contracts today — if somebody's doing what they should be doing — have all these deliverables: social media, what hashtags to use for the brand, this, that, and the other thing. And there's true deliverables, because the facts of digital marketing now mean you can measure everything, including your pro staff's performance, if you're paying attention. There are even online tools that assimilate all the tagged images and posts your pro staff is doing on your behalf. So if you allocate the resources to it, it's very easy to make sure your influencers are executing the deliverables you've set up for them.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So when you have those kinds of tools, it starts to look like — well, that's the direction we should go, because we can see the ROI, whereas traditional media, like a television show, you just had Nielsen ratings. Does one start to lose its value once you get these different reporting tools? Is it the reporting tools that make it more valuable, or is it the platform itself?

Bob Bagby: Well, I think it's ultimately the platform — the reporting tools are just a vehicle. Modern marketers today, regardless of what business you're in, want to measure everything, and the folks they report to want to know, are we getting the bang for the buck? In traditional media that was really hard, particularly for small fishing companies who couldn't spend a fortune on Nielsen ratings or similar things. But if you have the right digital capabilities, or work with an agency that does, you can measure everything — you set up KPIs for what you're trying to accomplish, and then measure those things. So when you structure an influencer or pro staff contract, you're mirroring what the company's trying to accomplish. A pro staff guy isn't tied to sales results, obviously, but they're an element of what you're trying to accomplish — whether that's reaching a target audience, building an email database, whatever it is.

So one piece of advice I'd give somebody starting out is: you've got to do some groundwork first. If you just went out and won a tournament and think, “I should be sponsored now” — you're not, most likely.

Tom Rowland: Well, that's a big misconception —

Bob Bagby: Right.

Tom Rowland: — that as soon as people win a tournament, the sponsors are either gonna be calling, or they deserve to be sponsored.

Bob Bagby: Right, right. So I think it's kind of being patient. It's being realistic, and being willing to put the work in. And by patience, I mean — now you've got high school and college anglers, and that's a heck of a venue to start out, with all kinds of brands aligning with that. What a great way for a talented young angler to start networking — and, of course, we're primarily talking about bass fishing in that scenario. But you've gotta put the work in. Nobody's gonna come to somebody nobody's ever heard of, or a young angler starting out — but you've got more and more opportunities today to start networking and building what I'd call a content library. That's what it's gonna take. So at the point where you're ready to really start reaching out, if you can show evidence — hey, this is the kind of thing I'm doing beyond just performing relatively well in my fishing — boy, that raises you to the top of the heap in a hurry, versus every other high school or college kid or regional tournament pro who's just, “I finished twenty-sixth, seventeenth, third,” you know? So be patient, and be willing to put the work in. I'd strongly advise folks to build their own plan and start executing on it before they get the cart before the horse.

Tom Rowland: It's interesting — as there are more platforms, and more people have a large audience size, there seems to be a real balance between one of the examples you gave — “I finished seventeenth, third, sixteenth, fifth, fourth in these tournaments, but I don't have any social media” — well, I guess if you're good enough, that might be enough with somebody. I don't know — if you're good enough and you win enough tournaments, maybe you're the Vijay Singh of fishing. But there seems to be a real sweet spot: performing well in tournaments, showing you're good at what you do, and also having that content creation side.

Bob Bagby: Right. Well, I'd say this — if you're really, really good, a lot of the content is kind of done for you, because the brands you're already aligned with, and outdoor media, come to you. But by the same token, without mentioning names, I know a few guys way up there in professional tournament fishing who don't take it seriously and aren't very good at it, and it's cost them somewhat. And I know others who are mid-to-average tournament performers who are really good at marketing themselves and representing their brands, and have done exceptionally well with sponsor relationships. So it certainly is a balance — at the end of the day, whether you're a fitness guy, a CEO, or an angler, you've gotta be good enough at your job for somebody to want to align with you. But by the same token, especially if that's what you're gonna do — if you're a college angler going pro, supporting your family or whatever it takes — it's your business. That's how you have to look at it: this is my company. And ultimately, if I'm successful, the folks I'm working with aren't direct employees, they're partners — sponsors or whatever. You really have to look at it like you're running a business. And I think too many young folks are pretty naive about that.

And then you've got some really seasoned guys who, as this unbelievable transition happened in how consumers, anglers, and hunters consume content of their passion, thought, “that's for young people” — but no, it's not. So there's probably a lot of guys who had to retire early, or do other things, because they weren't willing to change and adapt their business. And as you well know — and you're the poster child for this — if you don't adapt, you die, in any business. Just look at the Amazons of the world, folks who came out of nowhere and gave Walmart all they wanted. Nobody would've said Walmart could ever give Sears a run for its money. So you go all the way down — that's what you're looking at: adapt or die.

Tom Rowland: Yeah, you hear that a lot. Walmart was the new kid on the block at one point, and everyone said nobody would ever take down Sears. And Walmart looked at it like — really? People like to shop here? Do you remember how you used to check out at Sears? It was antiquated and ridiculous — cash registers all over the store, you had to find somebody working on commission, and it wasn't a pleasant experience. And all it took was one guy to say, yeah, I think we can change this — let's make it more like a supermarket, where everybody just checks out and goes on their way. And sure enough, that turns out to be what wins.

It's kind of like that Grecian Formula ad — the guy looks in the mirror and says, “wow, it really snuck up on me,” and he's got the white hair on the side. It snuck up on you — it jumped on your shoulder and attacked your head. That's kind of what happens with social media. A lot of the examples you gave, of older folks who were like, “I'm not gonna worry about that, I'm just gonna focus on the tournaments” — well, at first social media wasn't something to be overly concerned about. But once the tide shifted, it really shifted. Kind of like the Blockbuster-Netflix model — Netflix was this little thing for a while, and then it's this giant monster afterward. For people who remember before, the thought of taking down Blockbuster Video was crazy talk. But that's what's happened in every industry — digital, whatever you want to call it, whether that's social media or streaming, has overtaken traditional. It's not just seeming to — now it's clear. So to not pay attention to that is like saying the internet's a fad, like it's probably gonna go away in a couple years. So you saw firsthand that some people who didn't pay attention had to retire, while others who were early adopters were able to extend their careers or create whole new ones.

Bob Bagby: Yeah, and it has a snowball effect — it really does. When a younger angler gets noticed doing a good job of content generation, using digital tools the right way, then — because even though there's fifty million people who fish, the industry is relatively small, and everybody knows everybody. It's almost comical how folks tend to move around — you go to ICAST or whatever, and it's always the same cast of characters. So most of the larger brands know a good number of folks at other brands, and things happen where they join forces on a marketing effort or whatever. So if somebody's starting to build a good relationship with an apparel company, they'll typically say, hey, if you guys are looking for somebody, we love this guy. And it can really snowball quickly for someone — it's just cracking the code and getting your foot in the door, and then it becomes easier and easier as you build that résumé of sponsors, as long as you're doing what that sponsor wants you to do.

Cracking the Code: How to Land a Sponsor

Tom Rowland: Yeah, and what about that — how do you know what a sponsor wants you to do? Especially for a college or high school bass angler, or a first-year guide — and especially now, what if there's not an ICAST this year, or not one next year? How long does it take to lose touch and not understand — you walk into ICAST and think, oh, the trend this year is ultralight fishing rods, or surface lures, or if it doesn't have twelve ball bearings it's worthless. There'd be a trend every year — everybody's getting into saltwater, or everybody's into walleye now. But without ICAST every year, or as one of these young anglers or outdoorsmen — let's not limit it to just fishing — how do you know what a sponsor wants?

Bob Bagby: I'd say the easy answer is: you ask. The first thing I'd do is structure a proposal. The classic thing you'll get from a potential sponsee — that's not even a word — is a résumé. But I think where you raise some eyebrows is when you give a potential sponsor a proposal that says, here's who I am, but here's what I can do for you. And if you can get that dialogue started, then you get into, here's what I see when I look at your brand, and this is what I think I can accomplish for you — does that feel right or not? And if they say, well, this and this, but really we're trying to do this over here, then you've started to make some headway. So it goes without saying — the hard part is getting the dialogue with a potential sponsor, and the competition is fierce. The number of folks reaching out to us, and to other brands in the space, is almost overwhelming — like the best job in the world coming open, and how many résumés you get. So you've gotta think, what can I do to stand out against all these other folks? And I'd say for the most part, the bar isn't that high — there's maybe 10% of potential sponsees doing the kinds of things I'm talking about, and 90% who are just mass-communicating and firing stuff out there, who'd work with any lure company, any whatever company.

And that's the other thing — decide who you wanna be. I'd have no interest in sponsoring somebody just because they were the one who happened to get in the door, versus, what do you want personally as this angler or hunter or content creator? Do you really believe in that brand? Because if you can't really believe in what they're trying to do, it's pretty shallow — it's gonna come through eventually. Nobody's fortunate enough to check off Carhartt, Strike King, and get the perfect portfolio. But be honest with yourself, create that wish list, and if it falls through, go to your next list. You've gotta be able to represent the brand the way they want to be represented. So if you're a real introverted, not very outgoing person, and you've got a really irreverent, loud brand — you're just not a good fit. Be realistic about it. Look at yourself and say, what types of brands would I best align with, and target those.

Tom Rowland: And in today's world, if there isn't an ICAST next year, how do you suggest people target a company? How do you suggest they communicate with the person they're hoping to get time with?

Bob Bagby: Well, there's nothing wrong with reaching out through their customer service portal, firing something out there — typically the customer service folks will pass it along, though whether marketing really looks at it is anyone's guess. It's an avenue. But I'd say the absolute best way to go about it — and there's no cookbook way to do this — is to network. You live somewhere, you're doing things on a regional level, you probably know local business owners, maybe some reps in the area. If you're fishing a lot of local tournaments, there are tournament organizers, folks coming through, folks aligning with local companies. It's just your ability to network. And a lot of brands appreciate what I'd call regional pro staffs on a local level — there aren't as many folks attending consumer shows as there once were, but it's still a thing. At that grassroots level, if you can network with the right folks and be willing to help out with a youth tournament thing, or an in-store promo, whether you're sponsored or not — that's a great way to get in at the ground floor and show a work ethic and a willingness to interact with consumers. There's no shortcut to that.

And that's how it happened with us — Kevin VanDam came that way, oddly enough. He was actually working with one of our rep organizations. He was seventeen or so at the time, and they said, this kid is something, his personality is great — and it was all true. We didn't know Kevin VanDam was gonna be Kevin VanDam, but he had the right work ethic, he was talented, he had the right personality, and we were fortunate enough to work with him for his entire career, up until a couple of years ago. It kind of happened at a grassroots, local level.

Tom Rowland: That's really interesting — I never heard that story about Kevin, about that relationship. Let me ask you this — going back, how many things did Kevin VanDam do for free in the very early days?

Bob Bagby: A lot. And this is one thing I'd say about Kevin — obviously the last twenty-plus years of his career, everybody wants a piece of him, but you can call that guy, and you may not get him, but I promise you, by the end of the day, he's returned your call. That's hard to say about a lot of folks. Or at least you heard from him — got a text: “hey, I'm doing this couple-day photo shoot, is it okay?” He'd acknowledge that you tried to reach him, and he'd always get back to you. For a guy with that many irons in the fire, that's very admirable. And that's the other thing — you can't over-communicate with your sponsors. Brands really appreciate hearing from you, the good and the bad. And if it's bad — there's a product causing a problem — you've gotta be diplomatic about it, but that's what a brand wants to know: what's working and what's not, whether that's the product or some marketing initiative. I've worked with some folks who just said, well, your stuff just sucks — totally one-sided, like, you're really affecting my ability to perform. But all products have issues from time to time, and if brands are doing the right things, they're using their brand ambassadors as a way to get better. So if you're on my side of the fence, on the brand side, that's one thing you ought to be looking at — don't just reach out for the good, reach out for the bad too, as an opportunity to help your product or your marketing improve.

Guides, Tournament Anglers, and the Value They Bring

Tom Rowland: So it's interesting, because I guess a lot of people would be afraid — I don't wanna say anything bad, I don't wanna jeopardize this relationship. But in a lot of ways, that's the only reason you're there. Like — one of the questions I was gonna ask, for the benefit of the audience — how can someone who's just a fishing guide, fishing two hundred days a year, be of value to a company like Kevin VanDam, who's obviously doing something so much bigger? But in a lot of ways, that person out there two hundred days a year might provide value that Kevin VanDam can't, because he doesn't have the time or the bandwidth. So what are your thoughts on that — a fishing guide versus a tournament angler?

Bob Bagby: I think they're both extremely valuable, for different reasons. If you look at guides — they don't have mass touch points necessarily, but they've got folks in their boat every day who are most likely using the equipment they use. So a guide's ability to provide a good experience, and as the opportunity presents itself, subtly recommend and represent the rods, reels, lures, hooks, whatever it is — that person's gonna go back and think, man, I really like that stuff. And word-of-mouth is extremely strong in this industry — it's always one of the highest-ranking reasons in market research that somebody bought something, because someone they trust, an accomplished angler, recommended it. So if that guide recommends it to a client, who recommends it to their family or fishing buddy, there's a lot of residual effect.

The other thing we use guides for a lot is true field testing — the guy fishing two hundred days a year is using and abusing your products, and it's also being used by the more average consumer. So you tend to find things you can't find in your own company field testing or test lab. Some of the guides we worked with really rose to the top as good communicators, and we'd send them tooling and things like that first. That's a skill set you don't see very often — your typical guide, and I'm stereotyping, doesn't tend to be a great communicator. I think I know one of the reasons why — they're up at daylight, it's still dark, they've gotta rig tackle, do all that. They don't wanna sit down and bang out emails or make phone calls.

Tom Rowland: Well, not to mention they just talked to somebody for twelve hours and get home — and that's the end of a lot of guide marriages. You go out, entertain someone for eight to twelve hours, you get home, and the last thing you wanna do is entertain someone else — your wife, the one person who needs to be entertained more than anyone in your life — and she gets neglected. And other communication can too. A lot of fishing guides are great communicators, they just run out of energy. I can't imagine sitting down at that computer right now — that would be horrible.

Bob Bagby: Yeah. Now, it's pretty common to see an organization of guides — somebody's put together a company with six or eight guides working for them, and they end up being the business guy, the communicator. I've seen that be very successful, where somebody with some business savvy — let's say there's a group of flats guides in the Keys somewhere — puts together a well-designed business of six guys or whatever. Your odds of getting sponsors and building a much more successful business than doing it on your own go up exponentially. And if you're one of those six who just wants to look for permit for twelve hours and go home, that's not a bad plan either — align yourself with something that already exists, or if you're five or six guys coming up in the ranks, think about starting your own business.

Tom Rowland: Yeah — and it is possible to be a successful guide and never have a sponsorship relationship. It can help, but a lot of times people get into the sponsorship business when they don't necessarily need to — a fishing guide, for example, who can pay for all their own stuff, makes good money, working hard. And what maybe some people don't realize is that as you develop these sponsorship relationships, there's no free lunch — they're not just gonna send you stuff and expect nothing in return. You may be asked to go to a boat show or a consumer show, maybe attend ICAST, which can have great residual benefits — like when you asked me to come to ICAST for the first time to represent your brand, and that worked out great, I met tons of people. But at the same time, I'm not fishing — so some people might say, well, I'm losing money, I could've booked five days at eight hundred dollars a day, that's a lot of money. So in that situation, maybe it's easier to just buy the tackle, or get on a discount program, and not have the responsibility of doing things for the company, or the chance you'll have to say no once you've struck a deal — “I can't do that, man, that's tarpon season, I'm gonna miss too many days.” But the deal was, we said we'd help you, you said you'd help us, and that's not happening — so this relationship isn't gonna last very long. You could very easily just buy your own stuff at a discount and not have to do those things, and that might be a much better situation for some people.

Bob Bagby: No, I think that's a great point — it comes back to being realistic. What's your goal? To your point, the continuum runs from paying full retail for everything, to maybe a small deal with the marina you work with, to an industry discount, to a free-goods thing, to a true retainer sponsorship. And the higher you go on that ladder, the more expectation the brand has — they own a piece of you, a percentage of the work you're putting in. That comes with the territory. So I think you're exactly right — it's about where you wanna end up and what your end goal is. I've seen it happen — it's almost comical — where we've reached out and said, hey, we'll start you off with a free-goods thing, and in some cases they didn't even have a rod-and-reel sponsorship, and they'd say, no, I need some money on top of the free goods. And I'm thinking, really? This is what we're willing to do, let's see how it goes — and they'd refuse, which is a little bit of a gift-horse-in-the-mouth situation. But again, be realistic about your expectations. The further you move up in your career and sponsorships, the more effort you have to put into those relationships. A lot of younger guys aspire to be Kevin VanDam or Gerald Swindle, guys who probably have sponsor relationships with 25 or 30 different brands — but what you can't appreciate, unless you know them personally, is how much work they do off the water, year-round. It's amazing how many collective days and man-hours those guys put in producing content, attending events, whatever it is, on behalf of their sponsors. Those guys work their tails off, and I think the common denominator for guys who've been very successful in their careers is that work ethic — which obviously translates to fishing too. The best anglers typically have the best work ethics, because they're applying a lot of effort to the craft, and that goes for the sponsorship relationships as well.

Setting Realistic Expectations

Tom Rowland: Yeah, I guess in bass fishing particularly — though there are other types of tournaments, kingfish tournaments were real popular for a while, professional redfish tournaments too — it's very competitive, and in bass fishing there are extremely high entry fees. So the idea of doing one of these tours without any sponsorship — I guess there are people who do it, put the money out themselves, hope they win more than they spend on hotels, food, and entry fees, maybe with no sponsors at all. But it's a very competitive world with very high expenses. So it makes a lot of sense, like we were talking about — you might be a very successful fishing guide and never have any sponsor relationships, because you don't want them — your time is better spent making money on the water than going to a consumer show. There are plenty of people who fit that profile too. But as you move into the bass world, could you even do it without partners and relationships? Kevin VanDam's won a lot of tournaments, but he doesn't win every tournament, and he doesn't expect to. There's a realistic expectation — I may have a great year, I may not, I'm gonna do everything I can. But it comes down to it — it's fishing. You may catch them, you may not, you could have good luck or bad luck. Some people are just way better at it than others, like Kevin, and you see that in his tournament résumé. But without sponsorship, it's gonna be hard for him to make a true living doing what he's doing. So that's one of the incentives for somebody like that to seek sponsorship — it's gonna be hard to do on my own. I have a lot to offer these companies — I'm winning tournaments with their tackle, I believe in their tackle, I have a big social media following, I'm well respected — so it makes sense to engage in this sponsorship relationship. Now that's the angler's perspective. What's the manufacturer's perspective — like, this guy makes sense, what's going on there?

Bob Bagby: I've got a wasp attack going on.

Tom Rowland: Yeah — it's like Brian Regan, talking about watching somebody walk into a spider web from a long way away.

Bob Bagby: I had my wasp spray out earlier, so they're a little angry with me now.

Tom Rowland: Yeah, you saw that one coming for a while — I was watching you check it out. But I do think it's kind of interesting that for some of these careers, sponsorship isn't an option — it's 100% part of it, and you're only gonna be able to fish those tournaments if you have partners supporting you. And then you've gotta do whatever they're asking of you —

Bob Bagby: Right.

Tom Rowland: — to make it a good relationship. So let me ask you this — over all your years of evaluating sponsorships, what's the craziest idea you ever heard? Somebody thought, “you're gonna love this” — it probably started like that.

Bob Bagby: Well, you caught me off guard. Most of the crazy stuff, to be honest with you — yourself not included — was folks who thought they were gonna start a TV show.

Tom Rowland: Well, it could have been me.

Bob Bagby: I don't recall a lot of really crazy stuff with folks looking for sponsorships — it was somewhat comical sometimes just reading their pitch, though I don't remember any specifics, just how crude some of them tended to be. But the joke we always said, and it was true — if you went to ICAST, you'd see this guy looking around your booth, and he'd find somebody, and they'd start pointing at me. And they'd come over and go, “I hear you're the marketing guy,” and I'm like, yeah. And they'd say, “I wanna talk to you about this TV show we're starting,” and I'd internally roll my eyes — every pitch would start with, “this is not like any other TV show you've ever seen.”

Tom Rowland: And —

Bob Bagby: Then you knew it was coming. I don't remember a lot of the specifics, but it was anything from Vegas showgirls to who knows. It was just amazing how many. And that's the only thing I never could wrap my head around — with the number of networks available today, how do these folks justify putting this kind of money into producing a TV show, particularly the ones that aren't very good?

Tom Rowland: Well, that's easy to do — it's easy to put a lot of money into something and have it turn out not very good. Really easy — if you've got all the wrong people working for you, nobody's ever been out on the water before. All your cameramen say, “oh, I've shot all this stuff,” and none of them have ever been out on the water — they all get so sunburned they blister in the first three hours, three of them are throwing up, and you end up with nothing. So it's very easy to do that. Did you ever see something you thought wasn't gonna work, and it ended up working out pretty good?

Bob Bagby: Well, you're asking me hard questions — I'm old, I don't have much of a memory. Well, one thing we really started to do — the school of thought was always, let's engage as many outdoor writers and media folks as we can. It was recommended to me at one point that we spend a fair amount of money, invite a very select few media folks and a select few of our influencers, and do it on the saltwater side — we'd already done it on the freshwater side. And I thought, man, that's a lot of money, and we're really relying on a very few people to do something with this content. It was a ton of money in relative terms, and it worked really, really well — whereas the classic school of thought was, let's have some event and invite a ton of outdoor folks down, with a couple of our pros there, and it turned into more of an entertainment thing.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Bob Bagby: Whereas this was serious — and you know how it worked, because you participated. This writer's with you for half a day, then they're with another saltwater guy we were working with, or Kevin VanDam or Gerald on the freshwater side. And you'd just continue to see that photography or content appear for years and years. So that might be a good example of one where I thought, that sounds like a lot of money and planning with not that many folks involved — is this really gonna work? And it really did. We did that for quite a few years, whereas I knew a lot of other plans that did the classic thing — get a ton of people down because we're spending the money anyway.

Where Outdoor Sponsorship Is Headed

Tom Rowland: Yeah, yeah. What do you think — as we wrap up here — with all the social media now, you said every pitch used to start with, “let me tell you about this TV show.” Today it might start with, “let me show you my YouTube channel.” What do you think the future is here? If you had a crystal ball — I'm not saying conventional television is going away, I don't know if it even matters, because there's gonna be such a fine line that nobody will be able to tell whether they're watching conventional or digital television — it'll just be there. But what do you think the future of outdoor sponsorship is?

Bob Bagby: Well, I think more of the dollars will be put into content creation and content creators, in whatever form that is. And I've gotta say, it's bigger to me on the hunting side, because hunting doesn't have competitive organizations for obvious reasons — there's Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, QDMA, organizations like that. But the folks doing a good job outside of the Bone Collector types and the TV shows are very good content creators, either personally or aligned with somebody who is. So you really see relationships developing now, where brands align with folks who can produce really good, well-edited content that tells a story. I mean, you guys were kind of pioneers in that — you decided very early on, we're gonna get the best videographers, production people, editors, and tell a story — not just catch a bunch of fish. So I think it just continues, and the equipment is relatively cheap now, as you know, and the ability to edit at home — anybody can do it, that's not a barrier anymore. So now it's really the innate talent, the moxie, the willingness to do it and compete with everybody else doing it. If you're a great hunter or angler and you suck creatively, find somebody who's good at it, because that's the only way you're gonna shine above the rest. You don't necessarily have to learn to produce content or be an expert at Facebook and Instagram, but you'd better know somebody who is.

Tom Rowland: And —

Bob Bagby: And there's a ton of guys paying somebody else to help them, and that's okay — nobody cares, as long as it's genuine. And I see too many folks out there where you can tell, just by knowing that individual, that the content being produced isn't really them, and they don't have a lot to do with it. So I'd highly recommend, if you're gonna use a partner, make sure you're intimately involved and it's genuine — it's you, your personality, they're saying things the way you would say them. Not necessarily writing every word, but it has to come across as you, or it falls apart pretty fast.

So I think, in a nutshell, the content is gonna keep getting better and better, and there'll be more and more folks online who are really good at it. And like you said, it's gonna be served up as whatever the next TikTok is —

Tom Rowland: Right.

Bob Bagby: — a year ago. I mean, not that a ton of hunt-fish folks are using it, but look at what it's done. There's just gonna keep emerging different delivery vehicles that you have to adapt to, like we said. But I still believe — and I could be dead wrong — that in this category, being such a passion-enthusiast category, and I'm talking mainly hunt-fish now, traditional media will still have its place. There's still gonna be people who wanna watch TV in whatever form. They're gonna consume print — might be digital print or something like that — but they're gonna consume media. There's still a lot of catalogs published, retail or otherwise, and people like them. So I think what separates our industry from a lot of others is that it's still very down-home, relatively unsophisticated — and that's the appeal of it in a lot of ways, even with trail cameras that send pictures to your cell phone and all the technology we have. It's still that “I just wanna get away from it all” vibe. And I think that's a lot of why some of the traditional ways of doing things still hold up, even though a big part of it has changed rapidly.

Tom Rowland: Yeah, it's interesting. So today there are a lot of really shiny things out there — a television show, a new YouTube channel, one getting seventy or a hundred million views on some video, maybe it's TikTok. So how would a company value a sponsorship relationship where — yeah, you got ninety million views on this video, but either my product wasn't used, or it was used in a way I'm not proud of, or I don't think we sold anything because of it? Where do you draw the line on what's successful — is it just the number of views, or another metric you're looking at?

Bob Bagby: I think it's a little bit of both. There are things you're gonna do that have a very specific methodology for converting somebody, and you're able to track it all the way through. So, say you serve up some content using one of your influencers, and as a result there's a promo code attached — they click through, and you can follow them all the way through. Let's say it was paid social, and you spent a thousand dollars and sold five thousand dollars' worth of stuff — that's a five-to-one return, which honestly isn't that great in today's world. But you're typically doing a lot of those over a planned calendar, and one's gonna be twenty-to-one, another two-to-one, and you've gotta say, okay, I need to do more of the twenty-to-ones and stop doing the two-to-one. But then you've gotta get creative, because it can't all be the same — whatever was effective in that twenty-to-one, you're trying to figure out how to replicate.

But the other side of it — and I would have been the first to say this — the best example is when the Googan Squad first started doing their thing: five young guys doing more irreverent, social-media-based things, not really sponsored, and generating much bigger audiences. I looked at it a year or so ago — some of those guys had a million followers, while Mike Iaconelli and Kevin VanDam had a hundred thousand followers. Ten to one, and you're thinking, I don't get it. And again, I'm an old guy, so I get it less. But there were brands, like Favorite Fishing and others, that spent a ton of money with those kinds of guys. That's the best example I can come up with — it was a bit of a leap of faith, because they weren't brand-centric in a direct sense. It was almost like that was their shtick: “I'm not brand-centric, I'm creating my own persona, I'm the hero, and I happen to be using these things.” There were brands willing to invest and spend with very unique delivery vehicles, and I think they'd look back on it today and say that was a good spend — whereas a very traditional company like Zebco or Pure Fishing would look at something like that, at least back then, and say, we're not touching that with a ten-foot pole.

So I think as it moves forward, you're gonna see those kinds of things emerge, whatever they are, and there'll be companies that take a leap of faith and invest against them — it might work, it might not. And there'll be other things that are more predictable, that you can measure results on a little more traditionally. I feel like marketing is getting harder in a sense, because there are so many things you can do, and there's a little bit of, boy, we can't be in a rut here — there's a certain amount of our marketing mix where we've gotta take some chances. I don't know what those are, and none of us do — but there are a lot of smart people out there who are gonna continue creating new opportunities and delivery vehicles, and some brands are gonna align with that and be very successful, and some aren't.

Tom Rowland: Well, and some will make the right choice and some the wrong choice, and both of those choices will look the same at the time — like if you've got one YouTube channel versus another and you pick this one. Kind of like Blu-ray and HD DVD — they were basically about the same, you place your bet on one of them, and it might turn out to be the one that wins, or it might not. I think you have companies that make the right choice and others making the same choice, but one wins and one doesn't — they basically made the same call, moving away from something they'd been doing for a long time, going in a new direction, but not making the right choice within that direction.

The Content That Actually Performs

Bob Bagby: Interesting. Well, listen, man — I think the last thing I'd say is, whether you're on the influencer side wanting sponsorships, or you're a manufacturer, some of the most effective pieces of content I've ever seen had nothing to do with fishing, hunting, or the brand, in a sense. Because there's so much content out there now, you're really smart to think about doing family-oriented things, or things that relate to the sport but aren't hardcore — how to tie a knot, a fish, a lure — and mix some of that in. Some of the pros we worked with who generated the biggest audiences did a great job of that — it was like you were living vicariously through them, reminiscing about their childhood or whatever. Some of the best-performing content we did was some of the stuff furthest afield, because it stood out, instead of, oh, here comes the next knot-tying video.

Tom Rowland: You know, I have a big bunch of knot-tying videos, don't you?

Bob Bagby: Yes, I know.

Tom Rowland: Like, you're talking about me.

Bob Bagby: You would probably win the knot-tying contest — I always said that about fly fishermen: he who can dress up in the coolest stuff and tie the most knots wins.

Tom Rowland: Well, most people tie the knots while they're casting, which you're not supposed to do.

Bob Bagby: I can do that.

Tom Rowland: Well, man, I appreciate your candor and your willingness to share your knowledge, and I sincerely hope this goes a long way for young anglers looking to do something. It's a confusing time. And for older guys who wonder — is it too late for me to start a YouTube channel, is it too late to start an Instagram — I think the overwhelming answer, for this conversation, is no, it's not. And if you're waiting, you're missing the bus, you're going further behind.

Bob Bagby: Right.

Tom Rowland: Yeah, I mean, look at Roland Martin, what he's done — pretty cool, really. He started a YouTube channel just a couple years ago, and he's all into it. And I talked to Jimmy Houston, same kind of thing — I asked him about his YouTube, and he said, oh, I think that's the future. He's all in. And it's people like that, the pioneers, who can recognize it —

Bob Bagby: Right.

Tom Rowland: — they can recognize it, and both of those guys may be recognizing it a little later, holding on to the traditional a little longer than maybe they should have. But neither one of them are dumb — they wouldn't be where they are if they made it a habit of ignoring something obviously so valuable. And both of them are like, yeah, that's what we need to be doing. Maybe I'm a little late to the party, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna miss the party entirely. And I thought that was pretty cool.

Bob Bagby: Very inexpensive — in the old days, the barrier was, I didn't have enough money to start a TV show. Who did? I had to find sponsors in order to afford to do what I was trying to do. Now there isn't that barrier.

Tom Rowland: Well, that barrier still exists on TV, but what you're saying is YouTube or other places open the gates, and you can put stuff there. Podcasts are the same way — you can start one for zero dollars, maybe a ten-dollar-a-month hosting fee, and you're in business. It's up to you whether you make it really successful or not. When I started the TV show, me and Rich started, there were gatekeepers at the networks, and even if they said it was okay, you had to come up with half a million dollars to get started. And it's like, well, what am I gonna do — even if I put a mortgage on the house, I wasn't gonna get that kind of money. It was a different world, and that led us to the world of sponsorship — we can't do this alone, this is where we want to go, and this is the only way we're gonna get there, so we need to learn this game as fast as possible. And people like yourself were patient enough — I thought it was funny, I almost started laughing when you talked about telling people to send you a proposal. You told me that one time, and I was like, god, I've gotta find some guide for writing proposals, because I don't even know what that is. And I'm calling my dad, saying, somebody told me to write him a proposal, what is that? And he's like — well, I don't know what he wants to see, but I think it's as easy as telling him what you wanna do, and what you want for it. You're proposing something to him. And I'm like, I'm still lost, I still don't get it — but somehow we made it work.

Bob Bagby: To your credit — you guys, and we worked together a long time — you really did see the writing on the wall, and you did a great job, out of necessity, of adapting to the changing world. You were on the leading edge of trying to figure that out, so you didn't let it happen to you. There are too many examples of folks who said, this is what I know, this is what I'm gonna do, and they rode it to the end —

Tom Rowland: Right.

Bob Bagby: — and are no longer doing what they want to do, because they didn't have the foresight. And obviously you learn to do things today that you had no idea how to do ten, fifteen years ago —

Tom Rowland: — or that didn't even exist. What we're doing right now didn't even exist.

Bob Bagby: Right. Or you found the right folks to work with —

Tom Rowland: Exactly.

Bob Bagby: — that were experts, and there's plenty of those around.

Tom Rowland: Yeah, that's really maybe the best advice you gave the whole time — that if you don't know how to do something, that's not your limitation. There are plenty of people who know how to do whatever it is. Hopefully — I guess it could go the other way too — you could have some aspiring filmmaker listening to this who isn't the best fisherman. So if you want to make content for the fishing or hunting industry, you need to align yourself with an awesome hunter who may not be so good at making content, or vice versa. And then you become a team, and you can go out and do amazing things. But —

Bob Bagby: I mean, we're gonna have to wrap, but can you see who's calling me right now?

Tom Rowland: Hey, let's get him on here.

Bob Bagby: Let's don't.

Tom Rowland: Let's don't — we'll never get off. Alright, well —

Bob Bagby: Have you ever seen the five-hour podcast?

Thirty Years With Bill Dance

Tom Rowland: For the audio listener, that's Bill Dance calling my friend Bob Bagby — and I was hoping he'd put him on here, but he's probably right, we're already approaching an hour and twenty-six minutes, and we'd definitely be here for another five hours. But Bob, I'll let you get to Bill Dance. And that's a testament to something we could also take away from this — how long have you been working with Bill Dance, or when did you start?

Bob Bagby: Almost my entire career — I'd say, inclusive of what I'm doing now, it's pushing thirty years as well.

Tom Rowland: So a thirty-year relationship — you're out of the business now, you're no longer doing that, and you're still getting personal calls from people you worked with before. I think that stands as a testament to how a sponsorship relationship should work — that he feels like you became friends more than just working together, and there's mutual respect and a lot of communication. So that's a lot to be learned, just from the fact that thirty years later, he's calling you while you're hanging out at your ranch.

Bob Bagby: Yeah — and that's the last thing I'd tell folks: this industry, what I've typically seen, is that most people in it are personally passionate about it, and it turns into a personal relationship. It's still a business, but the best relationships end up being both professional and personal, with mutual respect. That's typically what you'll see — you're not trying to suck up to somebody, but you'll know it when it happens. And that ends up being the best relationships — it becomes more of a friendship, more of a family feel, than a business relationship.

Tom Rowland: Right on — well, that's what we all aspire to. So, Bob, thanks so much. You guys can check out Bob's consulting business, Lone Arrow — he wanted it to be Lone Wolf, but that one was already taken, so it's Lone Arrow, and you can follow him on Instagram. But again, Bob Bagby has a tremendous amount of experience with all types of sponsorships, and I really appreciate you giving us some of that knowledge. It's been a great pleasure working with you over the years, and I wish you all the best with Lone Arrow.

Bob Bagby: Appreciate it — thanks for having me. And the next time I'm in the Keys, I expect to see you.

Tom Rowland: Right on, we will do it — I'll take you to the same place I took you the first time.

Bob Bagby: You mean the Gar Hole?

Tom Rowland: The Gar Hole — that's where I take all the people I'm afraid are gonna go tell everybody else all my spots. I think the first time was the Guppy Hatch, west of Key West, and I'm pretty sure you did pretty well.

Bob Bagby: That wasn't the first time, but I still tell that story — that was the most epic tarpon bite ever in the history of tarpon bites, and you called it. That was the amazing part — you said, this is going to happen, as we got out there at daylight and didn't see a single tarpon. I'm like, yeah, right.

Tom Rowland: I've seen this story before.

Bob Bagby: It was on.

Tom Rowland: It was on — and I remember that, that was a good day.

Bob Bagby: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Alright, well, we'll have some more good days. Bob, thank you — I hope you enjoy your day at the ranch. Tell Bill we all said hello.

Bob Bagby: I will do that. Alright.

Tom Rowland: See you, buddy.

Bob Bagby: Alright. Yep. See you.