Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 859: Dr. Mike Larkin

In this episode: a bonefish tagged in the Florida Keys and recaptured in the Bahamas, why some professors said it was not true, the current as a barrier, and how to choose the right knots

00:00 · Cold Open

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Dr. Mike Larkin: I just had a couple of professors say, no. It's not true. They're lying to you. They anyway, I'm just got crucified because of the I'm Mike Larkin, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Mike Larkin, you're back.

Dr. Mike Larkin: We're good afternoon. I've been doing a bunch of things. They've been fun. But, just just working, waiting for the, waiting for the wind to die and, get warmer. No kidding. I actually forced my kids to go out a couple weeks ago, and it did it didn't work. It was cold. They were complaining. So winter's been tough been tough, you know, trying to use the around use of the boat, but the weather hasn't been supporting that.

Tom Rowland: Well, the entire state of Florida and most of the other states can can, understand exactly what you're saying. It is super, super cold everywhere right now.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. It's in windy and rainy and it anyway, it's just the the first winter I have abode and now I anyway, I just been and I only really go on weekends Yeah. With my work schedule. So

03:13 · Does Cold, Windy Weather Help the Fishery?

Tom Rowland: So when it's super windy and rainy and cold, is that good for the overall fishery? Does it have any effect on it from a scientist point of view? I know from a fisherman's point of view what I would say, but from a scientist point of view, I know that it can obviously get too cold. We can have fish die offs and stuff like that. But do you think that, the the rough windy weather and and cooler conditions somehow benefit in a way that while we're sitting around watching football on TV instead of fishing that we can we can say, well, at least it's getting better?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Well, from from my perspective, looking at a lot of the data, recreational data specifically, when you have those calm days, you can actually see peaks in the landing. So I kinda like, it's it's it gives gives the fish a break. Right? I mean I mean, I'm you know, again, that there's not a derby out there, people fishing and harvesting fish. And and I I'm like to think I'm one of those people harvesting fish when I can, so I'm not picking any one. But, but it is good. I feel like it gives them a a break and lowers mortality and lowers the harvest even though we'd like to be out there.

Tom Rowland: Well, that from a fisherman's perspective, that's what I would say too is it gives them gives gives them a little break and gives the spots a break and, I don't know, just kinda stirs things up a little bit too.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

04:30 · Hot Seat: Can One Angler Make a Difference?

Tom Rowland: So, okay. So we've done the hot seat questions with you before where we'll ask a whole bunch of different questions. But today, since we've done that a couple times with you, I want to ask you a couple of different questions. And I don't wanna get into a real deep conversation about any of these, but just just kinda curious, and it might give us something to talk about later too. Alright. So we're gonna go with three questions today, to get us started. So number one is, what is one thing that you've learned in your research that surprised you? Like, while you're while you're studying all your all the fish over all these years, is there one thing that stands out or or or one of a few things that stand out that that really surprised you in your finding?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Well, one thing which we're gonna go into today well, I guess the the theory the the the to sum it up, like, we think we know, but we don't really know until we study it. Like, in the thing we're gonna go about today is, the bonefish going from Florida to The Bahamas. That's just an example of like, it really blew me away. You know, I think of you think of bonefish in I mean, they tail. Right? The water is so shallow that their tail sticks out of the water. Right? And yet years of fish moving over a 100 miles over very, very deep water through a gulf stream, making those so so that I guess that's that's you know, you don't know until you study. Like, you think you know. Mhmm. But then when you study, you find out. So that's just an example of that's one thing I found out. So I try to it forces you to keep an open mind because, just look at all angles because if you make an assumption, well, you you could be wrong. And I was wrong. I didn't believe that first, but and we had multiple fish make that movement. We'll go into it later on in the

Tom Rowland: process. Just just briefly, when you, when you're thinking that you know what's going on, it's a shallow water fish that we typically see in shallow water most of the time. You're you were kinda making the assumption that, well, they probably spawn nearby in, you know, shallower water, not way out in the middle of the of the ocean or maybe they don't I mean, some of the the the water that you might cross between the the Florida Keys and Cuba or the Florida Keys and The Bahamas, there's some incredibly deep water there. Like, so it's got

Dr. Mike Larkin: new from the data that they were they were spawning in the, in the reefs area, a little bit beyond the reefs, but I didn't think they were going beyond the reef to different different countries. Right? I mean, they don't I can't. A Okay. Well really, really surprised me.

Tom Rowland: That's interesting for for later. We're gonna talk about that. So one other question is, what is one thing that you have changed your mind on in the last ten years, which might be the bonefish? It might be the bonefish, the same thing that you just talked about.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. But one thing changed my I'm trying to think of a different example. Something I changed my my mind on. And in the scientific field Yeah. I'm freaking out, Tom. I can't really think of something I changed my mind. And I like to think I keep an open mind and look at different angles and different options. So, Yeah. Sorry, Tom. I can't really think of one thing I keep.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, your mind is set. You're rigid That might come back to me. Beliefs. No. I gotcha. Okay. And then the third that I thought was interesting because you you talk about your kids a lot. You're you're with your kids a lot. I wonder if there is a a lesson that you learned through science and through your through your, process of of studying all these different fish over all these different years, if there is a lesson that you have applied to your kids or taught your kids a lesson that you learned in while you're doing your your research.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. We can we can definitely make a difference. So whether it's fishing mortality, whether it's the population, whether it's climate change, we can fix this. I know it's, a big issue now, but I just feel like just keep an open mind, and we can we can reverse things. I've seen that, especially with fish populations where they have crashed. And but they will come back. I mean, it may not happen overnight, but I just feel like keep an open mind. We can fix it. If we've what was that famous prayer with John F. Kennedy said if if man caused a problem, man can fix the problem. But I I truly believe that. If we can we can fix things. So don't think, oh, it's doom and gloom or it's over. It can be fixed. So you It may take time.

Tom Rowland: So and you're you're relating that on a regular basis to your kids in

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, they're they're the yeah. Because they're the future. Right? They well, they they they're gonna have plenty of things to fix. Right? It's like we've screwed up a lot of things, so I need to keep I need them to keep that in mind for their careers and their future and their whole generation. You know? So they can they need they can't fix things, and they will.

09:11 · Into the Bonefish Research

Tom Rowland: Alright. Cool. So as it as as we, move into the Bonefish conversation,

Dr. Mike Larkin: how do

Tom Rowland: you wanna start this? What tell us about the research that you were doing and and, lead us into what we're gonna talk to talk about today.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Sure. Sure. So real recently, it's actually some data that was some of it is pretty old, but, recently published a paper. And the name of it is I can give you a link to it, but bonefish do not respect international borders. And it's really about the connection of of bonefish going from Florida to The Bahamas. Now years ago, fifteen, eighteen years ago, actually, Joe Gonzalez tagged a fish. Well, I guess let me take a step back. We did quite a big, bonefish tagging project in the Florida Keys where we had over 8,000 fish tagged, close to 400 recaptures. So we had a big, long bowfish tagging project. And then during this project, about about four years in, Joe Gonzalez, unfortunately, the late Joe Gonzalez Yeah. He tagged the fish off Key Biscayne. And then about about four months later, it was recaptured in The Bahamas. It was just funny. So the so this the tags have a, this was the first one of the fish that made that movement from Florida to The Bahamas. It was actually Andros. So the tanks have a have a, phone number on it. It looks like a spaghetti tag. So I actually it was funny because we get this I did this guy, name I'll never forget. Name is Brian Harris from Sarasota. He was a dermatologist. He was over in Andros.

Tom Rowland: I used to fish with him.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Really? Yeah. Okay. Small small fishing world. Okay. I've never met somebody, but I talked to a bunch on the phone. But, you know, but I really I sat on it for, like, three days. I didn't tell my adviser. I didn't I didn't tell my my girlfriend who's not my wife. But I, like, what what is going on here? Like, is this true? Is somebody playing a joke on me? You know, I I my I guess I was close minded. This is something I I guess to your point before somebody changed my mind on, but I kinda, like, sat on it, like and I kept calling Brian, asking questions, trying to get more detail about him. And and I even get the point, like, can I see your passport, you know, the same thing? But but I just wanted to know, like, I didn't

11:14 · The Tag That Matched: Key Largo to the Bahamas

Tom Rowland: So tell me this, though. What what you you brought in Brian Harris. Is he the one that caught the fish that Joe Gonzalez Yes.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yes. I'm sorry. He's over there.

Tom Rowland: So Joe Gonzalez catches a fish with one of his clients in

Dr. Mike Larkin: He puts the tag in the fish.

Tom Rowland: Key Largo or or Biscayne. Biscayne. Biscayne. Biscayne. Yeah. And then four months later, Brian Harris, a dermatologist, as I remember, he's from the Tampa area, kind of Sarasota, Tampa, Bradenton area. Yeah. Yeah. I think

Dr. Mike Larkin: look him up still. But yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. He's a terrific fisherman. I used to fish him a bunch of times. Brian Harris, a dermatologist from, as I remember, the Tampa, Bradenton, Sarasota kinda area, he was in The Bahamas. He catches the same fish that Joe Gonzalez had tagged in Key Biscayne four months later.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yep. And everything matches up. The the size matches up. The tag number obviously matches up.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah, the the specific phone number

Tom Rowland: Brian Harris is legit, man. I'm telling you. That if that guy's telling you that he he did this, he did it. There there's no reason for him to there's no reason for him to falsify.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. That's that's that's not the thing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, he's a very respected dermatologist, a very respected angler. He's he has nothing to gain. So that's really super cool. So he that was the first time that you had seen a fish, you know, a 100% sure that that fish traversed over to The

12:34 · Why Some Scientists Refused to Believe It

Dr. Mike Larkin: Bahamas. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then there's a little side note. So at at University of Miami, every year as a grad student, I had to give a presentation to all the faculty at at the the faculty and the students. It's it's brutal because it's painful, but you have to give a presentation. And I presented that, for my, my annual presentation, and I got crucified. Like, I had professors come right up to me and say that is BS. Like, that is not true.

Tom Rowland: Like It couldn't happen? Like, they're just saying there's no way that that happened.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Now certain ones are. Like like, Jerry, I was very supportive of it. There was but to certain I just had a couple of professors say, no. It's not true. They're lying to you. And they they anyway, I'm just got crucified because of it. But, and these are professions which should be open minded. You know? But but, anyway, yeah. So, yeah, that was I sat on it, but then I released it. And I had criticism from, I presented at a at a symposium. You know? Like, some peep which is I mean, you never get a 100% agreement on anything. Right? We know that from politics. Right? So so it's okay. It but, so but, you know, I suck my gun with my guns, and as you pointed out, like, Brian had nothing to gain from this. Right? Like, he's not why would he lie to me? I didn't even know this man. You know? Like, so, and then but then so then then years go on, and then another one happens. So another one, Kenny Knudson, tags one in Almorada. And I don't know if you ever sat down with Kenny Knudson. He would always say, like, I remember back in the day, I saw bonefish leaving the leaving the Florida Keys. They just left. He would always tell me that story. And then Hubba hubba. I I remember I remember yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had the nickname of hubba hubba. But,

14:04 · The Fish That Left: Kenny's Story

Tom Rowland: So he told you the story about the fish leaving. So

Dr. Mike Larkin: yeah. Yeah. He's told a lot of people about his story. Anyone had that's spent some time with Kenny. And I love Kenny. He was a great guy. He is a great guy. So, so, yeah, he always talked about, like, in the, there was a day in The Keys where he saw, like, all these bonefish weaving the weaving the channel One of the channels in The Keys, and they were weaving the Florida Keys, and he thinks they were all going to The Bahamas. And then years later, he goes to tag a bonefish, and then that one goes on to be recaptured also in Andros. So same location. This one, a guy by the name of Charlie Freeman recaptured it. So so, it was great because I got to pick on Kenny like, hey. You're you're right. They did go to The Bahamas. At least that one did, that one that you tagged. And then so so those are the two anchor tags. So think of, like, spaghetti tagged bonefish that went from Florida to The Bahamas. And then and then there's another type of tag called acoustic telemetry. So to go through this real quick, think of, like, a little, like, a little, like, c cell bed no. Not a c cell. It's too big. Like, like, a double a or even a triple a size battery. That's what they look like that you put inside the fish. And this tag gives off a ping, and every tag has a distinct ping. So, you know, okay. This tag is tag this is tag number one. This is tag number two. So, you know, like, okay. I put tag number one in a 23 inch fork length bonefish at this location, and then it goes on to be recaptured. Sorry. I think my computer had a little thing pop up there. But, anyway, so so there was a, acoustic tomography. I did one years ago, then the Bonefish Harpen Trust did a much more detailed, acoustic tomometry project in The Keys. So they were they're looking at spawning, looking at their movements. So therefore so now, one of those fish that they put a tag in, Gabri captured over in The Bahamas as well. This is different. With these, tags, they're getting off a ping and then they're you have to put a receiver in the water. We call them listening stations. Think of like a little tube in the water that listens for them. And it depends how how the distance that it hears the fish depends on the depth of water, depends on the bottom type, and all that stuff. But anyway, but you have to have a listening device in the water to hear the tag. The great thing is, you know, they're listening constantly, you know, twenty four hours a day. So there was a sawfish project in The Bahamas. So so here's a fish tagged in in the Florida Keys with this acoustic swam where we did this pinging tag, and then it's detected over in The Bahamas. So and and the with the bad news, we got a whole bunch of fish tagged in the Florida Keys, and now there was an acoustic technology project going on in The Bahamas in Andros. The bad news is, there was a lot of drama with The Bahamas. They really stopped research in The Bahamas. You might not have heard about this here from in the fishing industry, Tom. But, anyway, there was, like, a cutoff where The Bahamas, like, hey. No more research. Not now. We're not getting any more permits. No research. No nothing. And it was like a two or three year gap. So this that probably had to end. Well, there was some drama. I don't know the details as much as they as I should, but, I think they're just like, Mary, The Bahamas folks were being taken advantage of, or the scientists were communicating as effectively to The Bahamas people doing the permit. It seemed overkill. But anyway, so there was only a seven month The reason I'm going into this, there was a seven month window where acoustic tummy tailed fish were in the Florida Keys swimming around, and they were listing devices in the Florida Keys, and they were listing devices in The Bahamas. Then that project ended. Well, even now it hasn't picked up yet now. That's a whole another drama. I think now The Bahamas is slowly letting research come back to to The Bahamas, but they say, We're not getting any more permits, some more research. But anyway, there was already a seven month window, which is a bummer because I think as the project has more fish were being tagged in the Florida Keys, I like to think there would have been more recaptures of other fish that moved over from Florida to The Bahamas. But anyway, but if you don't have a listening station in the water, you're not going to get any data, you're not going to hear it. You have to have an ear there. There's pros and cons to every tag movement. So we have three right now. So three. So two acoustic two, you know, spaghetti tags and then that acoustic telemetry. But I wanna go into some of the interesting coin coincidence. Well, they're probably not coincidences, but, some of the data we got back from this. So first of all, we've had bonefish go from Duscane Bay all the way down to Key West. So that distance making it over a 100 miles. Well, first of all, you think, well, maybe that's an outlier and outlier as you cut out outlier. You don't you don't include them with your other data. But if you look at it, actually, those were not outliers. Those fish that went from Florida to The Bahamas, to Andros, it was over a 100 miles, but we've seen that distance in Florida. So, it falls at the same distribution. It outlier is usually like, here's a point here, and there's a point way, way, way over here. So it matches up with the distribution that we've seen in Florida. We've certainly seen fish make

19:09 · Acoustic Tags, Spaghetti Tags, and Reporting a Recapture

Tom Rowland: You would know that they the the ones that you know went from Key Largo to Key West, that's an acoustic tag or a spaghetti tag

Dr. Mike Larkin: or both? Spaghetti tags. Spaghetti or both. Actually, now they're singing more with the acoustic telemetry, because now because now there's it it's so I guess I'm gonna give away my age. But when I did it, it was like, okay. I had acoustic telemetry. I I had receivers around Biscayne Bay. But now there's so many different projects going on. It's really exciting just

Tom Rowland: That's what I was gonna ask because I know that in a previous podcast, we had talked about, this with with another scientist, I think the FIU people, and they were talking about Jack Clavels. And they were saying that Yeah. Once you put an acoustic tag in a fish, that any other study that has acoustic listening stations will upload the data, and you might get a notification that your fish was found. And And I guess that's what you were referencing with the sawfish program, that that that's how that was picked up. So you wouldn't even like, the question would obviously be, well, if you don't have a listening station in The Bahamas because no one thought that they went there, then how would you ever know? But it's because there were studies going on for other fish that picked up the the, the acoustic ping that we would know for sure. Alright. Joe, just to just to clarify that for everybody.

Dr. Mike Larkin: And then another thing that was interesting to go on a side note, one of those Florida Keys, tagged bonefish got got detected by one of those devices in Tampa. Tampa? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Only one so far. But so what it really is, it's it's a a brave new world. It's really exciting because there's so many other listening stations around. They're all around The Gulf. There's people doing lobster, doing glides grouper. And then

Tom Rowland: then as a scientist, tell us how that would how you would find out that one of your fish that you're studying or one of a fish that you tagged would show up somewhere else. Like, how does that data get uploaded, and is there you just get an email notification, like, you get a, like, a, like, an email, or, like, what would that be like?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Now there's a there's a website that goes through, and you can you can upload it, and you'll be contacted when they're it's someone that actually organizes and communicates with everyone. And one central place is like, hey. I got you'll get your data. Like, oh, I got tags 52. And it'll go to this website and then, oh, there's a it'll connect at fifty two is, John Smith at this university. So back in the day, you know, it was funny when I was doing it, it was just I had receivers in Biscayne Bay, Biscayne National Park, and there was also a nurse shark one going down in Tortugas. And sure enough, this is I had a tag that was, like, 532. I'm, like, I don't wanna have a bonefish tag 532. Turns out, it was a nurse shark that was tagged in a dry Tortugas that swam up into Biscayne National Park. So back in the old day, you go back and you you contact the tag manufacturer, say, hey. Can you tell me who tag number 532 is? And they'll go back to their database and, oh, that's Wes Pratt from Mote Marine Lab. And I reached out to him and all that. But now it's much more organized. They have a website, you can upload your data and communication, and everyone communicates, Hey, I got this tag. They upload it. It's really fascinating because people are working on lobster, working on fish, working on They're all using the same type of equipment, very similar tags, so they're being detected. So it's it's it's much more exciting now. Okay. And that's how that that sawfish project picked up that that bonefish over there. So

Tom Rowland: That's cool.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But the but the go through so, you know, you you get these an you get a lot more, questions than answers. So we had three bonefish that went over there. So the your first question, like, were they alone? I don't think so. Like, if I'm a bonefish across the Gulf Stream, I sure as hell am not doing it alone. Right? And we know they're schooling fish. Right? They join, you know, other schools. So so I don't think they're doing it alone. And, you know, we think of them as, most of the time, a bottom dwelling fish, but I don't think they're on the bottom. If you look at the the cross section of the the Straits Of Florida there, boil about 200 meters, it gets really, really cold. So and and bonefish have a threshold of about 15 degrees Celsius, so they're they're not on the bottom. They're not they would freeze to death. They're not following the bottom. So they're up in the water column somewhere. I'm really confident of that because there's no way they're going on the bottom of the of the Gulf Stream. It's too cold. So they're up there. And, you know, I always joke, I had a joke years ago, like, I used to hear people, well, yeah, bowfish are great marlin baits. Mhmm. Well, maybe marlin eat them. You know? And maybe maybe they're eating them. And then, Glenda Kelly told me a story. I never was able to verify it, but there was a wahoo someone caught in the Gulf Stream, and in its belly was a bonefish. So, like, I cut in half bonefish. Like, I I always wish I this is before cell phones, and now we have everyone has a a camera in their pocket. Right? But anyway so, so he has a big wahoo and had a bonefish in its belly. It was the story I got from Glenda Kelly from IGFA. But, anyway, so, yeah, they're they're they're probably schooling over there. Cannot going in the bottom. And then then another question is, why Andros? Like, Bimini is closer. Yeah. Right? So if you I think Bimini is, like I mean, it could be 50 to 90 miles from where you are in the Keys. Andros is even, you know, even further away. You know? Like, what maybe

Tom Rowland: What what are the listening capabilities in Bimini?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not aware of any, so you're right. You're right.

Tom Rowland: So maybe that's what it is. Right?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. You're right. You're right. But but also there's, you know, those guides over there, at least the the tag bonefish, whatever, the anchor tagged fish whenever were captured in Bimini. But you're right. But you you

Tom Rowland: Yeah. But, I mean, listen, man. If the whole government is saying, we don't want any more research over here and and you get a guide that catches a fish, I mean, he might just cut that thing off or or be like, I don't know what that is. Or just let it go or not know what to do with it or not care or or feel like if he reports it, then that's somehow gonna be bad for The Bahamas because that's that seems to be what you know, if they if they outline if they outlaw, for whatever their own reasons were, they outlaw, research because they feel like it's not in The Bahamas' best interest for whatever reason. Who knows why? But True.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But that

Tom Rowland: that would be echoed through the guides too, I think, because they listen to the guides. The government listens to the guides in The Bahamas, and they make suggestions, and then they you know, like, that whole thing with the with the fishing license that you were supposed to have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was I don't know.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But but it goes through dummy and reptile, but this was back before this happened. So this is when in the February, when, when when we had the all those fish in swimming through the Florida Keys with those, the anchor tag, you know, spaghetti tag, then there was a lot of research. Bahamas is certainly open, so this was certainly the case. Now now currently yeah. And then I I wouldn't say they're outlawing research, but they stop research. But they're they're slowly I hear stories of them trickling back in. But but, you know, but a lot of goes in the, you know, the spaghetti tag. Right? So one, you have to tag the fish. The person has to report, hey, I tagged this so and so fish, which I think we had great, people that did that in the Florida Keys. But two, the fish has to well, there's a lot of there's other factors. Right? The fish has to be recaptured. So someone in The Bahamas has to recapture it. And then the other factor is they have to report it. Right. Here's a one-eight 100 number, but here, what if somebody is on an ally island in The Bahamas on a sailboat, they catch a tagged fish and, oh, I forgot to write down the tag number. There's a recapture rate, there's a reporting rate, right date to report it, and then there's also a tag shed rate. When I was working on that study at the Miami Seaquarium, I caught bonefish and tagged them. After about a year and a half, the fish lose the tag, and it's not the tag. So I also put tags in concrete and put a put a screen around them. The tags are fine. And I actually I actually saw some some bonefish at the Miami Seaquarium. They would they would rub it off. They would actually go against the side and rub the thing off. So so another thing, the tag has to stay on the fish. Right? So, and they'd suddenly so after about a year and a half, like, 99% of the tags are gone, unfortunately. They just rub it off, or it comes off with algae or whatever. So but but yeah. The the interesting thing is interesting. Like, why were they recaptured there? And everything, of those three fish, the two spaghetti tag and the one acoustic telemetry, they were tagged, like, over over 90 miles from each other in in Florida. But then they were were captured within within about 25 miles from each other. So it's like you have this big area over here where they're they're tagged in different areas, but then they were captured in a smaller space. So I I don't think that's a coincidence. You know, why andros and why in this, like, middle andros bite area, are they being are all three of those fish being recaptured? I don't know the answer why.

27:44 · Andros, Storms, and Why Bonefish Might Move

Tom Rowland: Have you fished andros?

Dr. Mike Larkin: No. No. I always wanna go there. I was pretty well, could they fish

Tom Rowland: I've I've been there to that middle bite right where you're talking about.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Uh-huh.

Tom Rowland: There are a lot of bonefish there. Like, that's that's where they wanna go. Right? It's like like for people. Like, why why is all of a sudden there's this there's this, collection of of a ton of people in February at this one little place? Well, it's the Super Bowl. Right? Like, that's where that's where the people go for whatever reason. And that it seems like I mean, when you know, knowing the guides over there, Andy Smith and some of the other guides over in in Andros, I mean, Middle Bight, that's the that's the spot.

Dr. Mike Larkin: And the other thing is, like, like, what caused them to move over there? Is it spawning? Is there food habitat? There is certainly some documented spawning events, with bonefish over in Andros. During those times between before between the fish were, tagged and recaptured, there were some hurricanes that went by, some storms. And you think of hurricanes, you know, going from east to west.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But not always the case. Like like, Wilma was one of the ones that occurred between when Joe Gonzalez tagged the fish and when it was recaptured by Brian Harris. And Wilma went went west to east. Right. So, I mean, it it it actually pushed right through. I'm not saying that's the reason, but

Tom Rowland: Then you have a ton of storms that come in from the West or from the east. They hit Cuba and then turn almost due north

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And come straight straight up.

Dr. Mike Larkin: There too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I got all these reasons. You know? Is it are they going up for for spawning? Or did a hurricane storm push them over there? These are I don't know the answer to these, but these are all things that we were considering in in discussing in the paper. Another thing, does it really, does a lot of do geologists at University of Miami always talk about Andros has these it's kinda hard to describe these whittings, like these big mining events, in during the wintertime off the, off the West Side Of Andros. So they were saying, like, maybe just take over there for the the these mudding events where the wind will stir up these these mud areas. I've never, physically seen it, but the geologists say there's something real special about the the geology of the West Side Of Andros. And we know bonefish, you know, live in mud, right? They take advantage of mud and and, not not shy of being in in muddy mud situations. But, yeah, is it spawning or but and then also opens the question is, like, how? How does a bonefish you know, they don't have they don't have GPS trackers like we do. Right? Like, how does a bonefish that's in key let's say Joe's, for example, it's in Key West. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Cubiscayne, Cubiscayne. How does it know how to cross the Gulf Stream? How does it know to get to Andros? I've looked in the literature and there's all different examples of fish using landmarks for navigation, using the use of stars, celestial cues for navigation, using the currents, using magnetic fields. Hammerhead sharks are a big example of that. They can detect a magnetic field and use it for navigation. Is it the smell? Is there a certain smell? Is there a sound? Is there a salinity? I don't think it's one thing. I I personally think it's, multiple things. Maybe it's, that current they know they have to go, you know, counter to the to the current of the of the Gulf Stream.

30:57 · Do Bonefish Home Like Salmon?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Maybe it's

Tom Rowland: We've asked these questions, and it's very common for salmon to go to the same place where they were they were born. Right? Like, that's that's Yeah. Now common knowledge. But it when when it comes to something like a bonefish that, oh, I can't believe they go a 100 miles away. I mean, maybe they go a thousand miles away. Who knows? Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: But Yeah. But, we we know that other fish are have, you know, this capability. And then when it comes to tarpon, we know that tarpon migrate because they're easy to see. You can track their movements really easily, through fishing guides and other people that are saying, well, there's tons here now. And then next week, there aren't many there. And but if you go up or down the coast, that's where they that's where they are. So we know that about so many fish. I don't know why it would be any kind of surprise that it that the bonefish would have the same capabilities.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Try to keep an open mind. Right? They go to we know they're captured in Andros, but maybe maybe that's an that's a function of, fishing effort. Right? Maybe there's higher fishing effort there.

Tom Rowland: What about Mexico? Like, if they can go to Andros, they could go right over to the Yucatan. Is there any evidence of that happening?

Dr. Mike Larkin: I have not I have not seen that, but, you know, I've been proven wrong before. You know? And another thing, so, so when this first recapture happened, this this Joe Gonzalez, Brian Harris recapture. You know, I gave a presentation at a scientific conference and published a paper on it, and it really kinda get buzzed and going and a lot more tagging occurred. So in Hawaii, they started tagging bonefish in Hawaii. Same same tags and everything. And in Hawaii, they bonefish down to different species. It's alveoli, I think, vergata, As we have primarily alveoli, volpe is in the keys. But anyway, different species of bonefish, but still in alveoli. But anyway, they bonefish, in Hawaii go between the islands as well. So it's just further evidence that bonefish can make these long distance movements over over deep water.

Tom Rowland: Very cool.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But, yeah, I'm I'm keeping open mind. Maybe they go to all over The Bahamas. You know? Just kinda keep it open. Maybe they go to Mexico. You know? Maybe, you know but it

33:01 · Keeping an Open Mind as a Scientist

Tom Rowland: It's kinda disappointing, actually, to hear you say that that that the the scientists were closed minded about this. Like, no. That can't happen. That guy's lying to you or whatever. It seems like a scientist, the scientific method would be I'll I'll I'll make a judgment of with what the data tells me.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I don't I'm I might go in with a I mean, I think that that would be, like, what a scientist is supposed to do is, like, you don't have any sort of bias. And if you do, then you have to put that aside and just say, wow. You gotta recapture over there? Are we sure that that's the case? I don't know. I mean, does that surprise you? But you see it everywhere. Like, even in the the the Egyptian Pyramids, like, there's some there's some information coming out now that maybe maybe we have, you know, the the timeline that we have on the pyramids might not be correct. And, boy, you'll have some people that are just like, no way. Right? Like, that is not possible.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But Yeah. Yeah. And I gotta admit, it was it was a small number, but I did have two professors at University of Miami come up to me and just say, that's BS. I just, like they just straight up they think I'm they thought I was, like, lying or something. Like anyway. But you're right. You're right. Just sign to me. You gotta keep it open and and, and you want what the data and I'm still trying to keep it open. Right? Like like, what if they go like, this was one way. Right? Florida to The Bahamas. What if they go the other way? Right? Why can't they go from Bahamas to Florida? I'm assuming they keep that open. Like, we would have to tag a bunch of fish over there and see if they come over, but just keep an keep an open mind. Any anything's possible. You know? Well, I

Tom Rowland: mean, I thought that that some, you know, some of the fishermen, do do have an open mind in some of those cases. And it's like, you know, where where why aren't there bonefish in Key West? You know, back when I started guiding in Key West, there were very few bonefish there. And even back then, people were like, man, I don't know. Maybe they go to Mexico or Cuba or something, and they get netted down there. Who knows, man? But they used to be here, and then all of a sudden, there there weren't any. And then now the bonefishing in Key West is is fabulous. It's amazing. It's the best place in all of the Keys to go bone fishing is is now Key West. So how does that happen? Like, there's there's just this resurgence of a of a fishery that once basically didn't really exist, and then it existed before that. Like, there's ebbs and flows of everything, but I always I I thought that at least the fishermen were being open minded enough to go, well, if they if they were here and then all of a sudden they're not, then somebody probably caught them somewhere, like all of them in a big net. You know, maybe they're after a different specie, and they catch them all. Like, it seems like if you're if you have a schooling fish, like a like a redfish or a mullet or a bonefish, and you're out there purse seining, and you happen to get in the right place where this unfortunate giant school of fishes, seems like they're gonna get every one of them. Right?

36:02 · Genetics, Mixing, and How to Manage the Fishery

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. They could. They could. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, just take a step back. I feel like we're we're constantly learning. When, when we first started putting, tags in Bonefish, the belief was it it was say, you know, Almorada and just in Florida, Almorada and Biscayne National Park. Even then, we had we had the first within a year, we had a fish that went from, Biscayne Bay down to Almorada. And that one that's like that one received a lot of criticism like, oh, no. No. No. Somebody or somebody's lying or somebody brought that down. But then we started getting, like like, you know, getting probably a 100 fish that did that. Right? So it did like, eventually, it can't always be one person drying or driving it down, multiple people. And we have fish going back and forth. We have fish going from Almorada up to Biscayne Bay.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Dr. Mike Larkin: So So you look at the mixing rate. So, eventually, that that calmed down. But, you know, I guess when you bring something new, the first response is no. That's crap. You know? But, eventually, as you get more data, you know, you can kinda you can, like, you can criticize me, but this is what I got. I have no I have no reason to not include it. No reason to look at it. And it also makes me wonder, like, I did in my dissertation, just because I wanna go in with, like, committee, I said, okay. Well, a small number of bonefish go from Florida to Bahamas. I don't wanna go go down that rabbit hole. But in reality, I don't know. I don't know if it's less than 5% that make that movement or maybe it's 50%. I really don't don't know. So sorry. I'm like

Tom Rowland: Interesting.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Clicking my phone. But

Tom Rowland: So what does that really mean to us, or do you have more information on this this study?

Dr. Mike Larkin: I think if it's just the key, I think we should for management, we should manage them the same. Like, we should, it shows that you have a maybe you have one unit stock. Like, meaning, maybe our unit stock is a sign of your nerd, but, maybe one population. Right? Like, maybe we always think and I I'm guilty of this. Like, okay, a Florida Keys population and a Bahamas population. But now we have data that's showing mixing, so maybe I think, you know, I do a joint management plan, You know? Similar size limit, similar bag limit, or a lack of or similar regulations. Like, this should be made as this one unit. Like, they do a lot that a lot of that with, tuna because tuna don't respect their national borders either.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You know? I would think, though, that it's like that that the the amount of bonefish that people are keeping through fishing is not the problem in this situation. I would think that the problem is commercial fishing that that in a method that is so effective, like a purse seine, that, you know,

Dr. Mike Larkin: it's not That's cool.

Tom Rowland: Like, if you're gonna hook and line bonefish out in the middle of the ocean, I mean, how many are you gonna catch? Like, okay, that's not going to be detrimental to the population. Like, if you were to see a giant school of fish from a spotter airplane and surround it with a net and you get every single one of them, which is a very common fishing method for certain fish, Seems like bonefish would show up equally as well if they were in the top part of the wall water column. Not that anyone is targeting those necessarily, but you can make cat food out of any fish. Right? Like, so how I mean, that that would seem like the most, detrimental to a spawning population of, like, okay. If we found out that they were spawning in a certain area, would there be a way to maybe regulate a certain type of commercial fishing during that time? And and, you know, those people that are that that are commercially fishing, maybe they're purse seining for something else. They're that's not that's just bycatch, which maybe it's valuable to them at some point, but it's not like all of a sudden you see bonefish showing up on menus everywhere in the in the world because they came across a spawning population of fish. But that seems more like what I would think is is, you know, for the overall population of the fish, if you could protect them against some sort of a fishing technique like that, which I don't know

Dr. Mike Larkin: if it's possible. I'm gonna pick on you, Tom, to keep an open mind. There's a classic example of, snook in Florida where, you know, they closed commercial harvest, but the population was still declining. Because of of just guys like you and me, the recreational fishery can certainly have a significant impact.

Tom Rowland: Oh, I believe it can.

Dr. Mike Larkin: It's fine. If you have if you have a million people, okay, they kill one fish a year, that's a million dead fish. Right? So it's like, so it could be I mean, I'm saying both, but, you know, the recreational fishing, from what I've seen in from my experience and I I criticize myself. I like to consider myself a recreational angler. But, you know, I am I am making a difference. I'm I'm certainly killing fish, even accidentally. Like, catching early, there is release mortality. Right? Right? You have enough people doing it, you could certainly put a dent in the population from that.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And I believe that for sure. So what, other than, managing the population as a whole, would there be any possibility or or I mean, how would someone that thought, well, if they can go to The Bahamas, then could they go to Mexico or could they go to Cuba? Is there any way that I could put listening devices over there or find out if they're listening devices or, like, is there any way that somebody does that, or do you have to get all new funding for a whole new study? Or or maybe there are already listening devices over there, and they're not picking up any fish. I don't know.

41:23 · Tarpon, Satellite Tags, and Drift Vials

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. No. They're, that's a good question. I'm not aware of any listening devices currently in in in Cuba. Like, for example, like Cuba. But I could be wrong. I could just be, just not up to speed on that. So, but, yeah, I mean, I feel like the future looks so bright with with more and more projects going on, and, I know there's some there are some in Puerto Rico. You know? So,

Tom Rowland: so We've never picked up a fish that went from The United States to Puerto Rico?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Not yet.

Tom Rowland: What about tarpon?

Dr. Mike Larkin: What about tarpon? There was a there was a a satellite. See, tarpon, you have the big advantage of, you can do telemetry tagging, and they have done that in so a lot of Memphis in Florida. We also do satellite tagging. But there was, to go back to the spaghetti tag, there was a a long term spaghetti tag project in tarpon. And there was a fish that went from, like, North Carolina to, to Cuba. So there was a tarpon that made that movement. So there's only one, but, you know,

Tom Rowland: but it was just

Dr. Mike Larkin: like one.

Tom Rowland: One one spaghetti tag in a tarpon, and I never got any Really? Okay. I never got any information on it. I still have pictures of that tag, but I never got any information on it.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. I know.

Tom Rowland: You know that it had a numb it had numbers on it, but it didn't have a phone number. It didn't have, like and this is before the Internet or whatever, but I didn't have any way of knowing who I should call. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. And the tag looked really old, and it had a lot of marine growth on it. We got the marine growth off of it, took pictures of it, and I didn't ever know what to do with it. Like, that's there was no phone number. There's nothing to call. There's no way to I didn't know what what it was.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. That goes back to the reporting rate. Right? Like, the recapture rate is one, but the reporting rate, did you I mean, you have to know nowadays, like, you're

Tom Rowland: like I

Dr. Mike Larkin: didn't know

Tom Rowland: who to report it to. I would have been happy to report it, but there's no nothing. No information on that. Now there's you probably scan a QR code on the thing and and and report it. You know, back in those days when I when I caught that, fish with that tag, I also, occasionally, more than once, would find these little glass vials all over the place. And they were obviously scientific, research going on. Someone I think maybe you might have told me before that could have

Dr. Mike Larkin: been at the surface?

Tom Rowland: Yes. They were floating at the surface, and and we were and it was in kinda tarpon season. So we would be out there kinda staked out. And we see these things floating by. I'm like, what are those things? Like, did a cruise ship, like, drop them, or did a container open up with these little little it almost looked like a little, you know, a timer with sand in it where you turn it over and the sand drips down, but a little one. Okay. Like, it was about three inches long, and it was a glass vial with just, like, a little piece of paper in it. And, I didn't know what to do with those either. We we recovered some of them.

Dr. Mike Larkin: There wasn't, like, a phone number? I heard about that project years ago. There was a student that worked in there.

Tom Rowland: Someone told me that that was a project that measured the current. Like, they put those in, in Florida Bay, and they did some sort of study like this I heard about where they they dispersed those all through Florida Bay, and then they were counting where, you know, where it all came out. And and it looked like Long Key Bridge was like the funnel, where most of those from all of Florida Bay that the water flowed out Long Key Bridge most. More so than 7 Mile Bridge? I don't know. It'd be interesting to see that study and see if that's actually true because that's that's total bro science right there that I just heard that from another fishing guide who probably fishes at Long Key Bridge. And he's like, that's why the fish is so good here because more current comes through here than any other place. It's a good story. You know? I don't know if it's true. But anyway

Dr. Mike Larkin: But I read a paper once of that. It might have been the same study where they actually dumped a bunch in the dried Tortugas to look at. Okay. If you have a spawning the the focus was if you have a spawning in the dried Tortugas, where would the larvae go to? Yeah. But it's very it's true. But nowadays, we have much more information because it's like you're you're assuming that that larvae is just a floating blob. Right?

Tom Rowland: Right.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Whereas nowadays, it's great. There's much more there's a the people are incorporating movement dynamics in the fish. Like, meaning, the larvae can swim. Right?

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Dr. Mike Larkin: So, anyway, that was, like, back in the seventies and eighties, they did they did that. Maybe in the nineties. That's interesting that you saw that. But now

Tom Rowland: no one saw it. They would've maybe those little vials would've come from Dry Tortugas because we were in Key West. Right? We're right on the West West of Key West. They could have come from there.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Was that? Do you remember?

Tom Rowland: That would have probably been, like, early two thousands, like, sometime in there.

Dr. Mike Larkin: In fact, the the the some of the people I guess I'm biased because I saw the people do it. You misremind me, but they'll actually take larvae. They'll put them in a big, like, glass they'll put them on the Gulf Stream, and they'll put them in a big glass tube to protect them from some fish eating and put a camera on top. Then to look at those fun look at that swimming dynamic. Like Really? But back in the day, we didn't know that back in the day. It was just a bottle floating like a message in a bottle that it was.

Tom Rowland: Would it be, like, would would the movement of something on the surface be the same as if something was, you know, 50 feet, a 100 feet below the surface or even deeper? Like, I don't know. Like, you have wind and and all kinds of

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Factors. I would think

Dr. Mike Larkin: I would think no. I think there's so much more of these movements, especially, I guess, on my bias, but bonefish and tarpon, larvae are excellent swimmers. So they're they're moving up and down. They're moving left, right. So, some of the fish, I think it would be. You know, it's just essentially the for swimming ability, they are footy. But some of the air fish, I think it'd be drastically different. Yeah. Because of their swimming ability. Yeah. So

Tom Rowland: okay. Well, you got other information in there? You wanna move on to knots?

47:02 · Moving On to Knots

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. I guess move on to knots. That's my summary.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, that's that's really cool, man. I appreciate you bringing that that on. It's interesting. Fun fact, the first story that you told, about Brian Harris, Joe Gonzales, and yourself, all three, podcast alumni.

Dr. Mike Larkin: I was surprised. Oh, actually.

Tom Rowland: Oh, sorry. Brian Harris was not a podcast alumni.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Okay. Okay. Okay. But,

Tom Rowland: he I fished with him. So interesting. Yeah. I had Joe

Dr. Mike Larkin: Small fishing world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Joe Golland. Joe Gonzalez, man. What a legend. RIP. RIP to him for sure.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Anyway, okay. So what about knots? You've been tying knots or what?

Dr. Mike Larkin: I have well, I look at I always look at, you know, your podcast coming out with different knots, and I know you have, I've seen on White Point you have, like, dot videos. Yes. So I wanna, pick your brain. Let me ask you, as your mind changed, As you asked me earlier, how like, are there certain knots used now? Like, now that you know the data, like, oh, I'll never use that knot again. Are you guys can we change the knots that you use?

48:02 · Building a Knot Strength Guide

Tom Rowland: Yes. So, it's very interesting that you asked this because we're right in the middle of of putting this thing together to where it's one thing to learn how to tie all the knots. It's another thing to say that that's a good knot, and it's a third thing to test the knot and actually come up with a percentage breaking strength. And then it's an even different thing to put all this into a, a table to where you can clearly see that, like, you have your your knots that are designed for braid to fluorocarbon, say. Okay. So this one test number one, this one number two, this one number three, and you go to your knot and you're like, like, I like the Aussie quickie, you know, and how did that do? And, wow, that's not anywhere nearly as strong as this other one up here. But, you know, what what I've learned is that those tests have shown me which one is the strongest consistently. But then there are also other factors that you have to, like, a lot of people ask me, like, why do you have to know so many knots? Well, first of all, the double uni knot will will handle most fishing situations, and it is one of the strongest knots that you can tie. It actually won over the f g knot in our in our little tournament. But most of the time when I tie the f g knot and the w uni knot, the f g knot will win, by a a a pretty good margin. Like, that that knot, the FG, is one of the knots that test over a 100% most of the time, which means that if you have 40 pound, fluorocarbon and you have 20 pound braid and you're gonna try to attach these together, it should break more than the 20 pound stated strength of the of the braid. Right? And most knots, if you're tying 20 pound to anything else, you'll get it to where it breaks at 18 pounds or 17 pounds or sometimes 12 pounds. That's a bad knot if it tests at 12 pounds, obviously, because that's that's almost 50%. Right? But then you can have these other ones that test it like a 104% and it broke, but it broke in the braid. The knot didn't break. Like, it broke in the line. And you test it three or four times, it breaks in the line every single time. That's a knot that tells me this knot is stronger than the line. Like, the connection between this and the fluorocarbon leader is stronger than the line itself because it will break in the line every single time. So that's a 100% knot or an over 100 knot. There are only a few of those. I've seen the double uni knot do it, on occasion. The f g knot does it almost every time. It will test over that. But then there are then this is why you would need to know multiple knots because the f g knot is a great knot for you to tie at your tying bench where you have good light. You can sit there and tie it. Now, obviously, if you're if you're a mate and this is the knot that you like and you're tying it 30 times a day every day in every condition, you're gonna get really good at it. But for the rest of the people out there, a double uni is gonna be way easier to tie out on the water than an f g knot.

Dr. Mike Larkin: So I feel like the double uni like, I what about Albright in that mix?

Tom Rowland: An Albright an Albright is a very strong knot, and it will, man, I don't have the, Ben, do you have the the, the the sheet up? Could you pull it up? Maybe we can put it maybe

Dr. Mike Larkin: we can we can,

Tom Rowland: Ben has this, this this sheet that we're working on, and we're gonna make a downloadable guide where it'll be a free download just to help people. And the way that the way that this is really gonna help is, like, it's one thing to go to the YouTube and see me Taiwan and then see somebody else Taiwan and then see somebody else Taiwan and then say, well, I I think I kinda like that one. But what this guide that we're putting together will do, it'll show you every knot that we've tied and how it tested in comparison to the other knots and then links to each video. Right? So so that you can you don't have to sort through YouTube and everything. And this is what it's looking like right now. But I think the, the Albright, do you see the Albright on there? It's really

Dr. Mike Larkin: It's great. You got the you got the line you used. Yeah. You got all the Albright.

Tom Rowland: We haven't done the Albright. Well, it's not in this it's not in this, thing yet, but it will be. But in my experience, the Albright and the Alberto knot are both, in the in the ninety ninety three to 96% knot. So really good, but not as good as the double uni and the, f g, in my opinion, for braid to monofilament. I mean, braid to fluorocarbon or braid to monofilament. So

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Have you seen any difference? Like, does it matter for a carbon mon I think a four carbon mono are very similar. I think it's

Tom Rowland: some differences. And and then when you go to some of these knots, there's differences even in the manufacturer of the line and what what even even within the manufacturer. Say you like you find some, a manufacturer that you really like and you really trust. Like, for me, that's Daiwa. I use Daiwa j fluoro all the time, but they have several different types of j fluoro. They have some that are what they call 16 carrier and eight carrier, and so they'll have, like, smoother lines, and then they'll have what are, like, rougher lines. And so with, like, the a knot like the f g knot, a super slick, real smooth one does not it it it has more likely to slip. I mean, imagine that that you have a surface that's super slick and you try to put something on it, and then you imagine you have a real matte surface and you try to put something on it. One of them is gonna slide off and one of them is gonna hold there. Well, you can find that, you know, for you know, I may really like the way that this other line casts, but my f g knot is stronger with the other line. So I'll use I'll use the the rougher line for the if I have my choice. Right? But, you know, a double uni knot is pretty much that's that's the go to, but there are situations where that's not ideal. In other words, like, where if you're gonna be casting that line in and out of the guides all day long, an f g knot is gonna be way smoother and way cleaner than than the double uni knot. So that's why you really need to learn a lot of different knots is because there are different applications. Maybe maybe you're in a situation to where there's some kinda weird algae on the surface or whatever, and you're you're you know, if you have a knot that has a right angle, tag end to it, like a perfection loop or something like that, it's just catching this stuff all the time. And then you could have another knot that has a tag end that's parallel to the line, the standing line, and it doesn't catch anything. And you you'll just find that, okay, for this application, that knot is not the best one for me. So if you're asking, like, what have I changed my mind on, it changes all the time. Because as lines change and as the finish on fluorocarbon changes and the finish on braid changes, there may be a knot that I really, really liked and I was using a ton. But for whatever reason, that now slips with this certain manufacturer. Or you need to you need to turn, like, I will do, like, five turns on a on a a clinch knot or on a double uni or whatever. And maybe this line is this line, new and improved line for this year, is a little slicker. And now maybe I have to put seven turns in there in order for it to not slip and to get the same testing. So I'm constantly testing and retesting as the new lines come out and deciding if what I was doing is still applicable and still the right knot and the right number of turns and the right application for this new fluorocarbon and the new, braid. And, you know, I I kinda stick to to diawa, but it would be Well,

56:04 · Why a 100 Percent Knot Matters, and When It Doesn't

Dr. Mike Larkin: you'd go crazy if you looked at all the mat. You could.

Tom Rowland: You would you you would go crazy, and it could be a full time job to test them to tie all these knots. What you would need to do is, like, start with one and tie it with every manufacturer. I'm not gonna do that because

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I kinda feel like Yeah. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do it with what what I use so that I know what I'm using

Dr. Mike Larkin: and then I have a 100%

Tom Rowland: confidence in that. But but it may it it makes such a difference because, like, I just go back to all the time that that in fishing like, if you're trying to get good at fishing, there are thing there are so many things that we cannot control. We can't control the weather. We can't control the water clarity. We can't control whether the fish bite or sometimes if they're even there. We can't control a cold front. But then, you know, all of those things are are uncontrollable things. But then there are things that you can control, and that's your tackle and your knots, the type of line that you choose to buy, the type of line that you choose to use, the strength of that line. Those things are controllable. And so when you go out there and you're hoping that you're gonna have the greatest day ever or you've put all this research and time into where you're gonna go and you've bought all the right tackle and you've bought all this and then you choose a knot that is a 50% knot. And you just thought this is a great knot because I saw it on YouTube or Instagram or whatever, but no one ever tested it. And you lose the one fish, you get one bite that day and you lose it. Or even worse, you take your kid fishing and your kid loses the fish. Right?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Now most people, or there's a lot of people that a 50% knot would work fine because they don't understand the mechanics of the fishing rod well enough to actually put a 100% pressure on the fish. Right? So there's either too much bend in the rod. They don't know how to palm the the drag. You see this with a lot with with people that haven't fished in salt water for the first time. And so the first half a day is to teach them how to put more than two pounds of pressure on the fish. And they're pulling as hard as they can, but it's not translating to as hard as they can at the fish. Right?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And so once you know, but when you when you're, you know, going for world records and you're you're, you know, dealing with somebody that that understands how how the pressure on a fishing rod works and to put maximum pressure and you're trying to catch a really large fish on really light tackle, the knots are the is it's it's the most important, the knot and the hook because the hook can be the weak link in the in the system too.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. And in fact, I always when I'm especially on fly fishing, I keep in my pocket, a a hook sharpener. Mhmm. It's probably more of a mental thing than advantage, but I like to have sharp hooks. So when I do get that one bite, I can set the hook.

Tom Rowland: Absolutely.

Dr. Mike Larkin: It it it gives me confidence in my head. You know?

Tom Rowland: For sure. But it'll it'll give you the same confidence to know that, you know, you've tied this this leader or your connection, you know, to to your braid or to your fly line is a 100%. It's as strong as it's gonna get. So, you know, from there, you know, you've you've controlled the things that you can control, and they are as strong as you can possibly tie them. And then maybe you get a bite, maybe you don't. I don't know.

Dr. Mike Larkin: But another note, another thing you like if I'm fishing dock lights, some of them you don't want a 100%. Right? Like, when I fish dock lights, like, that thing's I'm not going into that dock to get that thing. Like, I want it to break off.

Tom Rowland: Right? That's exactly right. And so there are knots like that too where you can purposefully choose a weaker knot, and and you can purposefully choose a weaker knot in a certain place. Like, so you may have fly fishing. You might go from your your fly line to your leader, and you know that knot, you wouldn't want that to be the weakest knot in the whole thing. Because if you break something off, you're losing the fly and the whole leader. Right? Like, that wouldn't make any sense. So you want that not strong.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: You wanted your your tapers down, and then you want, like, the fly. So imagine that you're you're, cast into the bushes. You want the the knot at the fly. If you're gonna have anything fail, it's gonna be right there. So you just lose the fly, you maintain your whole leader and everything like that, and you can choose those knots like a like a home or road loop. That's a 50% knot. Right? So if you got if you got 20 pound test, that's gonna break at about 10. Right? And, but you could tie another knot that's gonna you could slightly change that Homer Road loop, and the next knot is gonna be, you know, 80%. And so when you pull that against a mangrove, you might break your leader way up, and now you gotta tie a whole new leader

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: To get back in the water. Right? So fishing guides have learned this really quick because if you're taking people that don't don't fish a lot and they throw it in the bushes a lot, you just want them to lose the least amount of stuff that's possible. Right? And then, you know, if you but if it breaks at the the braid to fluorocarbon connection on a spinning rod, now you gotta tie that and then tie everything, you know, everything else. So, there are times where you would want a a weaker knot like you're saying.

61:15 · Connecting Fly Line to Leader

Dr. Mike Larkin: Specific question because I just did this last week. I always say when you're doing a fly line to the leader Mhmm. Do you do a nail knot? What do you do?

Tom Rowland: Well, there that's another that's another, place where there are choices. Right? So most fly lines these days come with a welded loop. Right? So they call it a welded loop. It's already turned over, and then then the plastic of the fly line is over the top of it. It's pretty strong. It really is. It's pretty strong. I've tested those too, and they do tend to test almost as strong as the fly line. So but what's gonna happen there is you're gonna have to go for the loop to loop connection. So the next loop that you're gonna tie in the fluorocarbon or monofilament leader is either gonna be like a perfection loop or a double surgeons loop or something, and that not presents a problem because it has a tag end that either is at a right angle, which does not go through. If it, you know, if it's 50 or 60 pound monofilament or fluorocarbon in your butt section, that short little one millimeter tag in gets caught on all the guides coming in. So if you're having to bring that in and you're trying to land fish after fish up, you know, with that or you're reeling in to go to a new spot, now every time you have to get that out. So if that's if if that becomes the chief concern, like, I want a smooth connection going in and out, for whatever reason, I'm gonna be moving a lot of different spots, and I just wanna be able to pull it out. You can cut that welded loop off and go with a go with a nail knot, and then you can even put some glue over the top of it. They have, like, zap a gap or these

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Gap filling glues that will, like, form a little bubble over it. So you can actually create the smoothest connection. Yes. Like a like a smooth super smooth connection there. And that's where it goes back to, well, okay. Now am I gonna do that with tarpon fishing? Probably not. I'm going to maybe cut off the welded loop, and then I'm gonna double the loop over myself, and I'm gonna tie three three nail knots on that because I know from my testing that that will be a stronger connection than the manufactured loop. Or I just look at that and I go, go, am I gonna trust my entire day or week or everything to this? I don't know. I mean, you know, there's probably a fly line manufacturer out there that would challenge me and say, yeah. It's stronger than the line. That connection's stronger than the line. I believe that it might be, but I know that I've never had one fail when I do it myself with three three, you know, blood or three, nail knots. Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: That's but you're still doing a loop to loop connection

Tom Rowland: with it? I I think a loop to loop is is definitely the strongest. But like I say, is if if you are fishing a really long leader and every time that you're landing a fish, you're having to bring that leader all the way to the to the reel. Like, say, you're using a 20 foot leader. You're you've got a nine foot fly rod and you're gonna get it close to the boat. You're gonna be you're gonna be the leader's gonna be all the way in the rod. So if that becomes a real problem to get it back out of the rod, then I'm gonna choose a different knot.

64:12 · Loop-to-Loop and Leader Length

Dr. Mike Larkin: I was always under, I guess, the mindset, which I've never tested, but I guess I've believed that, you know, like, a loop to loop could act as like a, I don't know, a hinge and there may be more flexibility in the leader that may interrupt your accuracy.

Tom Rowland: There could be there could be that. I you know, if you watch it, in slow motion, which you can easily do, like, record a fly cast in slow motion these days, I don't see that it's hinging much. I think that the more important thing is to match the diameter of the fly line and the diameter of the butt section of your leader should be similar. But then you can also have very stiff fluorocarbon or monofilament in relation to the to the fly line. So when I'm gonna choose my butt butt section material, it's gonna be of about the same diameter as the fly line and about the same, stiffness of the fly line so that when that does unroll, that's where I think you're gonna get the the real, hinge effect is like if you're using a super stiff, like, mason hard hard monofilament Oh, I gotcha. On a on a fly line that's very flexible and it goes out there and then all of a sudden you you hit this stiff part, you're gonna have the the leader kinda kick up. But, honestly, most people are lucky to even get the leader to unroll, You know? But but if you do it right and you tie the leader in a way that you it it can enhance your ability to make the the thing unroll, where you can take a a fly caster that's really, really great and he's gonna make any leader unroll. Right? So, of course, that person is super detail oriented because he already knows, like, well, I already I wanna I'm I'm a really good caster, but I also wanna put every advantage in my favor. Right? So I'm gonna use the right butt section. I'm gonna use the right leader. I'm gonna do that where you have these other people that are super worried about, which butt section they use, but they literally can't cast 40 feet and they can't unroll it no matter what the leader is. Right? So there's a there's a fine line there to where you wanna be a good enough caster to get it done and then put as many things in your advantage as possible. Right? So that it makes it easier to to unroll the leader like you like you want.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. I gotcha. Good point. Good point. Because I only I like to I actually go back of of the loop to loop because I have I have one nine weight reel. So, like, if I'm using oh, I have to you know, before I go fishing, the night before, I put a leader on. But But maybe I wanna go with a 10 pound test or, you know, I don't want a thick leader on. I don't wanna shock.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: So I you know, I'm always messing with my leader. But if I loop to loop, I could just okay. I'll unroll unloop this one and put a new one on.

Tom Rowland: You definitely can do that. Yes. For sure. And, and and that makes a big difference. Like, if you were gonna go from fishing for bonefish and you thought, well, maybe I might see some barracudas out there or something like that, you could have a loop to loop, to where you could you could, you know, loop on one that loop on a little butt section that has wire on it and a whole fly. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like, that's how we used to do it with tarpon. Like, we would have the before, we used to have the tarpon stretcher cases, you know, where you have to this is before fluorocarbon came out, but we would use monofilament, and you would have to keep it under tension to keep it perfectly straight. And you would have to stretch it or heat it up with water to get it perfectly straight and so that we would have these these cases where the fly was already on there. Then you would have this the the the shock tippet, and then it would be held by by elastic band to keep it a little bit under tension. Then we would have the the the class tippet all rolled up. And so when we wanted to change a fly, we would just go loop to loop to that, and the old fly would go in the stretcher case and you would and and so a fly wasn't just a fly in the in in your fly box. It was this fly in the stretcher case, and we'd have, like, 24 of those rigged and ready to go. And and it was really fast and quick. But if you wanted to just change the fly, yeah, you know, it was it was

Dr. Mike Larkin: So so I still do that? I have a stretcher. But yeah. Should I not? Like, I feel like if I don't, the waiter won't be straightened. No. No.

Tom Rowland: Well, you can, but that's one of the big advantages of of some of the new materials that have come out. Like, some of the new fluorocarbon, you can just stretch between your knees right there on the boat. And, honestly, like, I've gotten away from all the stretcher cases. I don't use them anymore at all because I'm now using, fluorocarbon that I can easily stretch out. And as the fish have become harder and harder to to get to bite, I'm using lighter and lighter fluorocarbon. So I can easily stretch that on the boat. And if I'm not after a world record or in a tournament or there's you're just out there fishing, you know, what what does it really matter if your leader is 15 inches or 14 inches or 11

Dr. Mike Larkin: inches or Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Or whatever.

Dr. Mike Larkin: You know?

Tom Rowland: I just

Dr. Mike Larkin: wanna catch the fish. Right.

Tom Rowland: You're just trying to catch the fish. So if you have a 15 inch leader like like, back in the leader stretcher days, everything was IGFA. And and in the tournaments, you know, of course, if you're fishing in a tournament, you gotta be within the rules. And if they're saying it has to be a 12 inch leader and it could be shorter than 12 inches but not longer than 12 inches, then you have to respect that. But if you're just out there fishing, you know, I tie a leader that's long enough that I can cut the fly off and and tie a new knot a couple of times, right, before I have to tie a new shock tippet on. Right? Because that's gonna really start to slow you down. And and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now if I can just cut the fly off and tie a new fly on, I can do that really quick with with 40 pound fluorocarbon or or 50 pound fluorocarbon, which is pretty much what we're using these days instead of when I first started guiding, we were I mean, people were using regularly a 100 pound mason, you know, hard mono

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like, for tarpon. I mean, that stuff is like the size of one of the cables attached to my to my computer here. Like, it's, like, massive stuff and super hard to deal with. So that's the kind of thing that you would wanna tie back on the bench with the you know, where you could, you know, somehow pull it with pliers and, you know, the whole deal to get that knot to seat properly. And those days are all over with the with the nice fluorocarbon that we have now, and you can just you don't even have to have gloves on. You just pull it tight.

Dr. Mike Larkin: That's good to know. I'm morning every day, Tom.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's good. I don't

Dr. Mike Larkin: need to have a safe room with my boat. I have I have a stretcher box that I have.

Tom Rowland: I mean, the stretcher boxes are great and and they can be really super fast, but they also take a tremendous amount of time to to To make rig, you know, 24 flies like that. And then what would happen to me all the time is I would get out there and there'd be a hot fly, but I'd only have one of them in the leader stretcher box. So I had 23 other flies that I had Yeah. Yeah. That weren't that they weren't eating. And then it's like, okay. Well, we're having a a knot tying party here for a few minutes while, while I get three or four more flies set up. So I don't know. I think I think these days, you know, longer I use not afraid to use a longer longer shock tippet, and I'm not fishing any tournaments and not trying to set any records on the tarpon and just, you know, just wanna get the bite. You know?

71:18 · Why You Need a Lot of Different Knots

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: Yeah. But that is a part part of it. Right? Like, the, like, I try to, you know what was it? I think Mark Sosin said, like, half your fish are caught the night before. Right? Like, have them all ready. But then stuff happens, then you got cut off or you got broken off. And then, you know, the fishing nearby is your time real fast. You know, what can you tie fast and and comfortably?

Tom Rowland: That's exactly right. That's why you need a lot of knots because there are knots that you tie at home to get ready, which is absolutely the optimum knot. An f g knot is a perfect example of that. And then there are knots when you're when your hands are wet and Yeah. You know, you're you're trying to seat it down properly and it's not getting seated. But there's another knot that you can tie that's really strong, but not as not it's not perfect, You know? So when you show up at the boat for the in the morning, your stuff's perfect. But then throughout the day

Dr. Mike Larkin: Stuff happens.

Tom Rowland: You're gonna do the best you can based upon the conditions and how much time you have. And and, I mean, there's situations where you got fish all around you, and if you stop to tie an f g knot, they're all gone, where you might just tie directly to the braid. Right? Like, I mean, this is the only chance we got. What's going on there?

Dr. Mike Larkin: Sorry. It's my dog barking. Hey. The mailman's come by.

Tom Rowland: That's alright. Well, we're approaching the end, Mike. You got, any other questions about knots? Or

Dr. Mike Larkin: No. I guess that's good. But did that come in Asia's high, bimmy twist, but I would never tie it in the boat. Like, at the night before, tie a bimmy and all that, but you're on the boat and, like, I don't have time for a bimmy twist. Just go. You know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Dr. Mike Larkin: You know, I'm missing on that time. But no. I I just look forward to seeing your your spreadsheet there. That that list of things.

Tom Rowland: We're gonna put it together. If if you want one, and anybody listen listening to this wants to have that, it's gonna be, very available soon. But if you wanna make sure that you get yours, text (305) 930-7346 or send me an email at podcast@saltwaterexperience.com, and I'll save you one and make sure that you get on that list for sending those out when I when I when I have them. But I'll make sure you get one too, Mike. You were inspirational and influential in my scientific method when you told me that I shouldn't just test it once. So all these knots have been tested three times like you suggested. So you you test them three times. You break all three of them, and then you take an average. That's what we've been doing. So

Dr. Mike Larkin: it makes a difference. Difference.

Tom Rowland: Oh, no. It really does make a difference because out of those three knots, one of the things that makes a really big difference is that you realize that not every knot that you tie is good.

Dr. Mike Larkin: The same.

Tom Rowland: Right? Like, they look the same, but you break three of them. One of them breaks at 10 and the other two break at 15. You're like, okay. Well, I obviously tied this one wrong, you know, or something's not right

Dr. Mike Larkin: or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It's not not working right. So but the other two are consistent. And usually, if that happens, I'll tie a a fourth one and throw that in there and just see. And so you have one that breaks at fifteen, one breaks at fifteen point two, one that breaks at ten. It's like, Well, let's tie another one, and then that third one breaks at fifteen point three. Right? So okay. Now I'm gonna call

Dr. Mike Larkin: So they had an issue with that 10 pound.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Something happened. Yeah. Something happened with that one. But anyway, alright, Mike. Well, thanks for being on the show today. I appreciate it and, giving us all this information about bonefish. When you're finished with this, new study, I'd love to have you on and find out what it takes to change regulations, what kind of science we need to to change regulations and how that whole process goes. Sounds like a riveting podcast, but it would be it would be interesting.

Dr. Mike Larkin: That's a very frustrating one too.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. Alright, man. I hope the wind stops blowing for you. You can get out there. As for everybody else, if you want that knot guide, text me (305) 930-7346. Podcast@saltwaterexperience.com. That's the email address, and you can get one of those not guides for yourself. As far as the guests, next week, we'll have another awesome guest just like Mike. Thanks again, Mike, and we will talk to you later. See you.