Transcript
Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 842: Kevin Pavlidis
In this episode: wrestling nuisance alligators and how to react when one bites you, gators vs. crocodiles in Florida, the 198-pound Burmese python that landed on his taxidermy table, catching a “two-hander” in the Everglades, and a record year of 368 pythons.
00:00 · Cold Open
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01:36 · Welcome: The Snakes of the Everglades
Tom Rowland: Hey, Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast today. The snakes in the Everglades. That is a subject that is fascinating and frightening and scary. Some people are all into going out there and catching them. Some people are terrified. We have one that is so passionate about snakes that he calls himself the snake a holler. That's Kevin Pavlidis. We've had him on the podcast before. We're gonna talk to him about all things alligators, crocodiles, and, of course, the Burmese python that is in the Everglades coming up right now.
Kevin Pavlidis: Hi. I'm Kevin Pavlidis, snake allaholic, and this is the Tom Roland podcast.
Tom Rowland: Kevin, what's going on, man? How are you?
Kevin Pavlidis: Good. Doing good. Staying real, real busy, but, loving it, man. Yeah. You've you know, they say, you love what you do. You don't feel like you work a day in your life. And I work every day. I'm tired, but I love what I do, so it doesn't even feel like I really have a job.
Tom Rowland: Well, we've had you on the podcast a number of times, but, refresh. We've got a lot of new listeners. Tell us what you what what are you doing right now? Same are you working at the Everglades Holiday Park? Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Yeah. So I got two main jobs, day job and a night job for the most part. My day job is I'm a professional alligator wrestler and animal handler at Everglades Holiday Park in Fort Lauderdale. And, my nighttime job is I catch pythons for South Florida Water Management. And, I'm pretty good at both of them, but I work full time with Apex Reptiles that just keeps me alive full time with big dangerous reptiles.
03:16 · Nuisance Gators: Why Winter Means More Calls
Tom Rowland: Wow. And how often at that place do you get new animals? Are they the same kind of alligators, or or do they do they rotate in and out of there?
Kevin Pavlidis: It's a it's a little bit of both. We say that the average we have a couple couple animals that are permanent residents, for multiple reasons. Some of them are special needs. They have injuries and stuff. They need special care. Others are important for our social hierarchy. And other individuals, we just really like their personality. They fit in really well. But we handpick based on personality and the way that they interact with us, the main ones that we keep there. But we typically say that most of the time, we rotate the animals in and out about every year and a half. A gator will stay with us for about a year and a half and rotate out to some of the other parks that we work with.
Tom Rowland: Uh-huh.
Kevin Pavlidis: But we do get new ones in fairly steadily. It does change a little bit based on the time of year. So in the winter, we actually get more. Even though the activity pattern is less for alligators so all the alligators that we work with, they're all nuisance alligators, which basically means they cause a problem for people somewhere, somehow. And so in Florida, the way that the trapping works is based on county. So our group has North Broward County. So everything from there, every nuisance alligator that people report in comes to us, and then we get called out to go and get it. So it's based on that. And we actually get more calls in the winter, not because the animals are more active, but because when it's cold, reptiles being ectothermic animals have to sit out in the sunlight. So they very well could have been there all year long, but nobody saw them. And now it's cold. They have to break cover to warm up so people see them, people report them. So we do get more calls in the winter, but it's it's pretty steady. In Florida, gators are always moving around.
Tom Rowland: So when when somebody calls with a nuisance alligator, are you going out to get it, or does somebody else go get it?
Kevin Pavlidis: So we work as a team. Our head trapper is Paul Bedard from the Gator Boys TV show. He's still with us. But it's really up to him who goes out on what. But what we always say is if you're here, if you're on the team, you're on call 247365. Like, if you're not actually in the alligator pit wrestling, they could call you, you get up, you go. And, so it it it varies. Paul takes the majority of them. It's you know, he's been building that team for, you know, god knows how long, probably over ten years now. So it's always up to him. He's the team leader. He decides what goes, but we're always on call twenty four seven.
05:51 · Easy Layups, Getting Bit, and How to React
Tom Rowland: What would be a super easy layup alligator to to get? Like, what would be, like, the dream scenario? Like, oh, you look over there, and you're like, oh, this is gonna be super easy.
Kevin Pavlidis: Well, I know, our favorite ones to film are definitely when they're in a swimming pool. And because it's they they're not going anywhere. I mean, the word it it's the answer is when they can't go anywhere, when they're basically cornered or trapped. Because we know it's it's in and out. We're gonna it's not gonna have to spend hours and hours trying to track it down, get a hand on it, take it from there. Like, when there's no chance of it getting away, we're like, this is gonna be a good one. We can kinda play around. But the swimming pool ones definitely seem to get the most attention, and they're just cool in general. We did have one, not this year, but I think two years ago, we had a a full like, a nine foot alligator in someone's swimming pool. And, I know that it was, Paul was disappointed because he was going in and expecting it to be this huge explosions and everything, and it was pretty lame. He pretty much just walked in and just noosed it and just pulled it out, and it, like, barely fought him. And he was like, really? Alright. Whatever.
Tom Rowland: He'd been he'd been happy there, and and probably very relaxed in that swimming pool. Yeah. So on the other hand, what would be, like, a a bad scenario? Like, somebody could get you to
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I mean, that's that's always a possibility. You know? It's just part of the job. That's there's always a possibility of getting bit. We always I mean, especially at at work, we say it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and how you react to it. When you spend as much time handling gaiters as we do, you're more than likely gonna get nailed at some point. But if you're smart and well trained and you're able to control your reflexes, it's usually not that bad of a situation. But, I mean, we've all I've got hole punches in me for a couple of times and this
Tom Rowland: So, well, I'll I'm I'm interested in that because if if you're smart and you react the right way, what is that? What do you what's the right way to react if an alligator is to bite you?
Kevin Pavlidis: So, obviously, it depends on the scenario. You gotta play it by play it by ear every time is different. But for the most part, number one thing that we practice is don't react. When they get you, just don't react because their instinct is, like, if you try to pull your hand away Mhmm. Then it's if their brain has flipped to this is food in my mouth and you try to pull it away, they're like, someone's taking away my food. And then you're really screwed because that's that's, they don't wanna let go that easy. But luckily so the the worst bite that I had was actually through my thumb. There's there's barely any butt any scar. It's just a little, little, tiny scar here, but it was nine foot alligator, boom, straight through. And so I have scars on the top and the bottom, and I just didn't move. Just stood perfectly still. And luckily, he just, like, was basically uncomfortable with the feeling in his jaws. And as he was trying to, like, figure out what was going on, he just opened his jaws, and I just took my hand out, closed the jaws, kept going like nothing happens.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: Finished the show.
Tom Rowland: Oh, wow. And that's while you're in front of a a giant crowd, like, people are watching you do this and that happens and you just you know, the show must go on.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I mean, I've I called out once I finished the show, but I had about ten minutes of script left, and I just powered right through it like nothing happened. Just finished the whole show and everything. And, then whenever you know, people are like, you okay? I was like it just casual. Like, yeah. Yeah. I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. And then right after, I was like, I might need some antibiotics.
Tom Rowland: Right. I mean, I bet so. I bet they're I mean, there's probably they're in the water all the time, so their mouth has probably got a lot of bacteria. Do you get infected? Like, is MRSA or something like that a a possibility when you're getting bit by an alligator?
Kevin Pavlidis: I mean, it's the main problem is that they have very I mean, they are like, a wild alligator would would probably be worse than a captive because they will eat nasty stuff. Their their guts can digest, like, the most ridiculous. They'll eat rotting like, if they get a meal that's too big, they wait for it to rot a lot of times Mhmm. And then tear it apart because it's softer tissue. So they are yeah. Their their mouths definitely can be a breeding ground for bacteria for sure. But for the most part, it's it's less about the bacteria and more about when you do get a bite from them, it's deep punctures. Yeah. And when that bacteria goes in deep, that's the problem.
10:32 · Gators vs. Crocs: Hunting, Range, and Rarity
Tom Rowland: So is it true, like, I always heard that, like, the alligator would bite something. You say that if it's too big that they'll wait for it to rot. I always heard that they would, like, take it underwater and, like, stuff it under a ledge or under a Yeah. Is that true? Is that, like, what they really do?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. They definitely do that. It's less so a thing with the American alligator as it is with other species of crocodilians. Like, the Nile crocs and stuff like that are notorious for that. But the American alligators, they just it it's really about the predator prey relationship. In Florida, American alligators don't really have anything bigger than, like, a raccoon that they would naturally attack. So they're not really geared towards big animals. They like turtles, ducks, fish, raccoons, like, anything in, like, you know, this medium sized bracket. But animals that are bigger than that, they don't really have them in Florida. So they're not really geared towards it. But they are opportunistic apex predators. So when they see an easy meal, they'll go for it every time because why would they pass up an easy meal? But they don't really hunt large animals, so they don't exhibit the same kind of behavior with, like, tearing stuff apart, waiting for the big animals to decompose. Like, they will do that if it's an opportunistic scenario. But when you get into your Nile crocodiles, your Australian saltwater crocs, they hunt big animals regularly. Yeah. So that's more of a behavioral pattern with them since they're used to dealing with big animals.
Tom Rowland: And so in Florida, the crocodiles that we have, that's they're they're gonna be below a certain latitude, right, or or certain Yeah. Yeah. Territory? Like, where where where is the crocodile exist? I mean, I know we see them in the Florida Keys. We see them in the Everglades.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. But where where is their territory? Where do you think the northern cutoff is?
Kevin Pavlidis: So we there's always outliers. You know, it's always a relative home range for them. There was actually one this year that was it was either in Boca or in Boynton, but it's pretty far up the coast.
Tom Rowland: Pretty far up.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. But those are outliers. Like, the vast majority of them stay right on the Southern Southern Tip of Florida. So they're much more prominent in the Keys. Actually, there's a pretty big population of them by the Turkey Point Power Plant
Tom Rowland: Uh-huh.
Kevin Pavlidis: Over there, and they study that population really closely. But, they're mostly just on the Southern tip. But every once in a while, we'll get one that comes up. The I've seen one just a couple miles south of US 41 inside Everglades National Park. So they do come up into there's an area over there called Shark Valley, and it's pretty well known that they will regularly have one or two residents that make it up that far into that section. But, yeah, it it's rare for them to go that far north. They're really just on the southern tip.
13:18 · Relocation Rules, the Homing Instinct, and Cold-Tolerant Gators
Tom Rowland: Now when you have a crocodile and an alligator, both could possibly end up in front of your dock in the Florida Keys or someplace like that. Right? Like, it could be. But they're they're different as far as the the protection that the government has on like, a a crocodile is a totally different, protected species than an alligator. So if you walked out to your dock, you've got what you're considering a problem alligator that just kinda hanging around your dock. You got dogs. You've got kids. You've got whatever. You could call someone to come and get that alligator. Right?
Kevin Pavlidis: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Tom Rowland: Would is it the same way with a crocodile, or is or or would the rules be different, or do they is that, like, a protected species and and they'd nobody's coming to get that?
Kevin Pavlidis: It's both. So American crocodiles, so in Florida, we have estimates of about 1,800,000 alligators, only about 2,000 crocodiles. So those are the population stats. They're very, very different. So, obviously, the crocodiles fall under stricter federal protections, but both are actually federally protected. They're both under federal regulations. Like, if you've ever noticed people that actually do hunt alligators, it's very hard to get tags. There's not a lot of them, and they're pretty, you know, spread out in Florida. I believe it's a lottery system where you could put it in the maximum you can pull as two tags a year. So it's very regulated. Crocodiles, obviously, more regulated than that. But when it comes to the nuisance scenarios, with American alligators, the we're legally only allowed to relocate them if they're under four feet. If they're over that, by law, they have to be either killed or kept in captivity, and those rules were put in place mostly due to the alligators' homing ability. So once they start getting over that four foot range, they start getting a little more dominant, a little more territorial, they'll start to develop a home range. And if you take them out of that, they go right back to where you caught them, even if it's twenty, thirty miles away. One way or another, they'll make it back.
Tom Rowland: Right. So is that why you end up with with the ones in in the park where where you work?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Yeah. Because legally, if we go to remove them and they're over if they're little baby ones, we're allowed to relocate them. But if they're bigger, they legally have to be either killed or kept in captivity based on Florida state laws. So we can't do anything with them. We don't wanna kill them.
Tom Rowland: When you have one for a year and a half and you say that they move in and out, then where do they go after that? Like
Kevin Pavlidis: So we have connections all over the state. We pretty much work with any park that we trust is gonna take good care of the animals. We're like, here, take as many as you want. Like, we got a steady supply of them going in. Right. And we we work very hard to make sure that all of our animals are kept in note you you know, noteworthy facilities. A lot of the ones we work with, at least our main one, is a five zero one c three nonprofit. And one of the beautiful symbiotic relationships we have there is we give them the alligators. They put it, you know, into their nonprofit, and they actually use donations from grocery stores and whatnot. So, basically, when they have meat that's on the shelves that expires, even if there's nothing wrong with it, they can't sell it because it passed the expiration date. So instead of throwing it out and just having a loss, they will donate it to five zero one c three nonprofits, write that off as a charitable donation, and that goes straight into feeding the alligators. So it's a nice little cycle that works there. Everybody benefits.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I see that. That's pretty cool. And and so a nuisance crocodile, what would happen to them?
Kevin Pavlidis: So they have a three strike policy with nuisance crocodiles. As far as I know, there might be changes in the regulation. I don't really keep up too much with it. But last I heard is a three strike policy where if a crocodile causes problems for people, they will relocate it three times. And if the third time, if it's still causing problems for people, then they'll go ahead and put it in captivity. But, again, it's a, you know, federally protected species. They're on the endangered species list even though well, important to note about that is that there's there's not it's not like anything happened to the crocodiles, really. It's always been a very, very small population. Gators range all the way up the coast to North Carolina
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Kevin Pavlidis: Which is pretty incredible. They are the most cold tolerant crocodilians in the world. Like, even in North Carolina, they'll freeze with just the tip of their nose through frozen lakes Really? Just so they can keep breathing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they can pretty incredible.
Tom Rowland: They just kinda shut down or or hibernate kind of, or what happens to their to their biology? Like, what what do they do?
Kevin Pavlidis: A brumation state.
Tom Rowland: Okay.
Kevin Pavlidis: But they'll slow their heartbeat down to one beat per minute in those states. Yeah.
Tom Rowland: So if you came across one of those, is there any danger like that, or is it just almost comatose?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Basically comatose at that point. But, I mean, they're literally free you can find videos and and links to it of people that literally with just their tip of their nose through the ice and just frozen all around them just so they can keep breathing even though their bodies are fully submerged, and they'll just go through the winter. As soon as it melts, they'll start to come out.
18:34 · Colorado Gators and Every Gator's Personality
Kevin Pavlidis: And there's a really interesting, facility out in Colorado, the Colorado Gator Farm. Obviously, Colorado, pretty cold.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: And it's it's not part of the native range of the alligator, but they do have captive alligators in Colorado at this facility. And they're known for they they basically keep them in hot springs. And so it's like spring fed warm water, but the gators will actually bask on the snow because it's snowing all around, and they'll just lay up on the snow and just bask there in the sun to warm up in the winter.
Tom Rowland: Why would someone want to bring alligators to Colorado?
Kevin Pavlidis: I don't know. I've I
Tom Rowland: mean, it just seems so much easier to move to Florida. Right? Like Yeah. If that if you just love alligators so much that you that you wanna bring them to Colorado. I don't know. I guess it is a you you know? I mean, that's a tourist thing. Right? Like, you can go see it.
Kevin Pavlidis: I've met the guys from there. They're nice guys, but, yeah, they definitely seem like the type of people that would pull one of those manure. They're they're a little wacky, but we all are. You all are.
Tom Rowland: That's funny. So have you ever had one in the park that that I mean, I see your your videos. I mean, you got an awesome, Instagram. It's at snakeaholic. It's on your shirt right now. And, if I mean, you you'll you there's one video where you're just, like, laying there. It looks like you're laying on a beach, and then you just kinda pan the camera around, and you're, like, your head is, like, on an alligator's head. And then I mean, you've done that, like, a whole bunch of times, and you're obviously very Yeah. Comfortable around the alligators, and they're very comfortable around you. But have you ever had one in the park where you're just like, not that one? Like, that that's just a bad character right there. Like, don't mess with that one. Or, I mean, how do you know? Like, is it do they exhibit a certain personality that you're that's really easy for for someone with as much experience as you to have to to tell, like, which one you can lay your head on and which one you should definitely not not do that? You'll lose your head?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. They all have different personalities, and that's it it is one of the most fascinating things about them is people look at them so robotically. Like, just that this is just a machine. It doesn't have emotions. It doesn't think. It just goes kill, eat, kill, eat, and that's all it thinks about. But they're way more complex than that. I've actually seen our alligators learn we had one. His name was Ajax. He learned his name in one day. One day. Called it called his name, Ajax. Gave him a piece of chicken. Next day, called his name, Ajax. Turned around right away. Like, oh, more food? Like, they learn fast. So the the dynamic of it is when they first come in, they're obviously gonna be afraid of us. They don't know what's going on. They feel like they've been abducted by aliens as they basically have. And so the the fear is all here. Their personality is still here, but the fear is overriding it. So as we gradually teach them that we're not a threat, we're not a danger, we're not gonna hurt them, that fear starts to come down. And as the fear comes down, the personality comes out, And you don't really know what you got until you can bring that fear down and bring the personality out.
Tom Rowland: How long does that take?
Kevin Pavlidis: And then from totally depends on the individual. I've seen them go from fresh from the wild to I could do a show with that gator in two weeks when like, that was Ajax. Two weeks fresh from the wild, he's ready to do shows. And then Darth Gator took a year and a half before anyone would even jump on him because he was just wired. And now he's actually currently my favorite Gator to do shows with. He just does a really good show. He's like he's a combination of, like, tolerant, but also, like, still got some spunk in him. So he puts on a really good show, but he took over a year and a half before he finally started to mellow out. So it totally depends on the individual and their individual personality.
Tom Rowland: And when you get one like that that you really particularly like and it does does a good show and and and did are they territorial? Like, when they get real comfortable in your place, do they accept other ones coming in, or is that sometimes a problem?
Kevin Pavlidis: Depends on the individual. Again, it's based on their personality. Sometimes they are just wiry, and they just don't like other alligators.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Kevin Pavlidis: We have we've had them in the past where they're they're extremely tolerant towards people. They'll let us handle them, and, like, they won't even react sometimes. Like, just try to move them, and they're like, no. I'm sleeping. Leave me alone. But then there's other ones, and then an an alligator will walk over to them, and then they get all territorial and try to attack it.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: So it goes back and forth. Some of them are super tolerant of other alligators, but not tolerant of people. And some of them are super tolerant of people, but don't like other alligators. And there's a weird dynamic between that. Yeah. They also play favorites. They have relationships between each other. Some of them get along. Some of them don't, and you just kinda gotta learn it and work with them.
23:39 · Territory, Favorites, and Reading Body Language
Tom Rowland: I mean, it sounds it sounds almost like if if we weren't talking about alligators, we could be talking about dogs, and people would be like, well, yeah. That's what that's that's what happens. Like, my dog, you know, sometimes he likes dogs, and sometimes there's a dog that just rubs him the wrong way, and he he goes after him. It's like, I've never seen him do that before. Like, why why would you do that? But for whatever reason, that dog and it it makes a lot of sense to people because they've seen that behavior a lot with when you're around dogs. But an alligator I mean, very few people have the kind of experience that you have with alligators to where you can Mhmm. See expressions or body language or or, like, what is it that you're seeing? Like, on a dog, they're very expressive. They have they you could see facial expressions. An alligator is not necessarily that I can tell is changing its facial expression, but I would imagine that it's putting off some sort of body language that you're reading. You're like I mean, an official do that too. Like, when we when we land a fish, you're like, you can tell. Like, this thing's about to go nuts. Mhmm. Or, okay. He he went nuts for a second, and now he's done. Right? Like, everything's cool. And there's a certain way to handle each fish, and you don't get bit. And then there's other ways that, like, that's definitely the wrong way to do it, and you will get bit. But, I mean, what are you seeing with an alligator? Is it body language or or posture or what?
Kevin Pavlidis: It's it's both. There's a there's a lot of things. For the most part, when we're handling them, it's a lot of actual tactile. Like, they're they have what we usually describe as, like, a delayed response. So before they actually do something, they'll think about it. And a lot of times when I'm well, every time when I'm on their back, before they do anything, I usually know it's happening because they'll go from kinda relaxed to just and they just stiffen up and take a deep and and you feel the the muscle tension building, and you know that they're building up to do a big explosive movement.
Tom Rowland: That's exactly what I was talking about with the fish. Like, you've got a big barracuda or a or a mackerel or something in your hand with a lot of or shark, and, you can feel that same thing. Like, you can feel it. It's like he's about to he's about to go, like, really hold on or let go one or the other. But, you know, you could see it. I mean, you can really feel it. Yeah. You can feel the energy, and I would imagine that's the same way. When you start talking about that kind of stuff, posture and body language, is that something that just a regular person when they're on the golf course or or they're going to their, their pond and there's an alligator in there? Like, can you notice, body language or posture or attitude? Could a regular person notice that and be like, it's a dangerous gator, or do you just stay away from all gators?
Kevin Pavlidis: I mean, the the the best safety advice would be stay away from all gators. Not because they're going to attack you or anything, but just they're a big apex predator. They're dominant. They're powerful. And although they're not an aggressive species towards large animals such as people, they are very opportunistic, and they learn very quickly. So when they see an easy meal, they'll go for it every time, and they can learn very fast. Like I said, we have one learn his name in one day. So if you take learning his name in one day, you can imagine what that means for if somebody is, you know, feeding a wild alligator.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Kevin Pavlidis: That's how fast they can learn. Like, oh, people, food. People, food. People, food. And they can learn it really fast, which is why in the state of Florida, it is fully illegal. It's a felony to feed a wild alligator because it creates such a dangerous scenario. If you don't one time, they start associating people with food right away. They see people. They just swim over trying to get food, get a free handout or whatever, and it creates a very dangerous situation very, very quickly.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I see that. I see that. Okay. Well, we got started on our, on our conversation a little early.
27:29 · The Hot Seat: Rapid-Fire Questions
Tom Rowland: And since the last time we've been we had you on the podcast, I have this new, segment of the podcast called the hot seat where I ask you a bunch of different questions. So we're gonna do that now, and then we're gonna talk about snakes because that's what you really like to talk about. Okay. Alright. So we're gonna do these hot seat questions. They're just series of quick questions either or you just kinda answer them as quickly as as you can. Don't put a lot of thought into it. Alright. You ready?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yep.
Tom Rowland: One of your favorite bands?
Kevin Pavlidis: Maroon five is the first one that comes to mind. I've, gotten over that a little bit. Not as important to me as they used to be, but growing up, they're one of my favorites.
Tom Rowland: Cool. Instagram or Twitter?
Kevin Pavlidis: Instagram.
Tom Rowland: One thing
Kevin Pavlidis: I I have a Twitter, but I don't use it.
Tom Rowland: This one is interesting to me. One thing you're afraid of?
Kevin Pavlidis: That's a tough one. I work so hard to not be afraid of anything. Oh.
Tom Rowland: Anything? Heights? Small spaces? The dark?
Kevin Pavlidis: I'd say driving in Florida,
Tom Rowland: the other drivers. That's a good one. That one, that one is perfectly justified. Yeah. No questions no questions needed. Okay. Which reptile would you not have as a pet?
Kevin Pavlidis: A lot of monitor lizards are very sketchy if you don't know what you're doing. They're actually extremely intelligent. And if you're a skilled monitor handler, you can train them to do incredible things, target train them, commands, every get them to eat out of your hands. But I personally don't have a lot of experience with big monitors, and they have crazy teeth and big tails, and they'll take a chunk out of you if you're not careful.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, that that sounds like a nightmare to me, the monitor lizard. I've seen those videos where they're just chasing down beaches and stuff. I don't know. We'll we'll talk about that in a minute. Office friends or parks and rec?
Kevin Pavlidis: Parks and
Tom Rowland: rec. One piece of technology you rely heavily on other than your phone?
Kevin Pavlidis: GoPro.
Tom Rowland: Favorite reptile?
Kevin Pavlidis: Snakes, Burmese pythons, by far.
Tom Rowland: Coffee, tea, or energy drink? Tea. Tea? Interesting. What kind of tea?
Kevin Pavlidis: You know, I'm a big lemon and, you know, lemon and honey kinda deal, but I, I don't do any caffeine.
Tom Rowland: Oh, really? Okay. So herbal tea. Mountains or beaches for vacation?
Kevin Pavlidis: Mountains. 100%.
Tom Rowland: Cake or pie?
Kevin Pavlidis: Pie. Although, either way, I don't really eat desserts at all.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Winter Olympics or Summer Olympics?
Kevin Pavlidis: Summer.
Tom Rowland: Favorite pro wrestler of all time?
Kevin Pavlidis: So I don't really have one, but I definitely have seen way more John Cena memes that in that I enjoy.
Tom Rowland: Okay. That's fair. If you could have a superpower, what would it be?
Kevin Pavlidis: Probably infrared vision. That might help me out.
Tom Rowland: So you could see snakes?
Kevin Pavlidis: My line of work.
Tom Rowland: That's all you think about, man. That you just wanna find you wanna find some more snakes. I know. That's what I would think. I want I wanna be able to see into the ocean to where I can see every fish that's there. That's what that's would be awesome for me.
Kevin Pavlidis: Either that or flying would probably help me too. Yeah. Just get a bird's eye view.
Tom Rowland: Uh-huh. Yeah. Flying would be good. Sunrise or sunset?
Kevin Pavlidis: Sunset.
Tom Rowland: Country, classic rock, or rap?
Kevin Pavlidis: Rap.
Tom Rowland: K. Inshore or offshore?
Kevin Pavlidis: Inshore.
Tom Rowland: Early bird or night owl?
Kevin Pavlidis: Night owl.
Tom Rowland: Venomous or nonvenomous snakes?
Kevin Pavlidis: Tough one. Tough one. Probably venomous.
Tom Rowland: You prefer venomous snakes?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. It, keeps keeps you on it. That's a long conversation we can have.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, we're getting ready to have that here in a minute. Best catch in your career.
Kevin Pavlidis: It's a lot of good ones. Most notable is definitely the previous state record, 18 foot nine Burmese python.
Tom Rowland: Nice. A movie that makes you laugh.
Kevin Pavlidis: I I just watched Anchorman again.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That one that that one will make everybody laugh. The last book you remember reading or your favorite book?
Kevin Pavlidis: Interesting. So I don't read well. It's actually,
Tom Rowland: Or listen to.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I, my eyes are very all over the place, which is probably why I'm so good at spotting snakes. But I could plug my buddy Tom Crutchfield. He just, had a book come out a couple years ago on giant snakes of the world, and it was super interesting information in there. But, I'm not as well read as I wish I was.
Tom Rowland: K. Well, that will go with that one. What's that book called? The biggest the snakes of the world.
Kevin Pavlidis: You know, I have a copy of it. I can go grab it quick. Here we go. This is it. It's all giant snakes.
Tom Rowland: Giant snakes. Got it. East Coast or West Coast?
Kevin Pavlidis: Never been to the West Coast. East Coast all the way, baby.
Tom Rowland: Okay. East Coast or West Coast Of Florida?
Kevin Pavlidis: Really the middle. I'm in the Everglades all the time.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. A place you would like to visit?
Kevin Pavlidis: Australia.
Tom Rowland: Because they have bad snakes there?
Kevin Pavlidis: You're you're darn right. You're rooting to it.
Tom Rowland: Somehow I knew somehow I knew that was gonna be, the reason. Android or iPhone? Android. Chocolate or vanilla?
Kevin Pavlidis: Vanilla.
Tom Rowland: One piece of advice that has served you well.
Kevin Pavlidis: Follow your dreams.
Tom Rowland: I like it. I like it. Awesome. So that's the hot seat. Gives us a little opportunity to delve into your, to your mind.
34:19 · Monitor Lizards, Iguanas, and Tom Crutchfield
Tom Rowland: So now I wanna talk about the, the monitor lizard. What in the world is going on with those things, and why would you even consider having one as a pet?
Kevin Pavlidis: Is it like
Tom Rowland: the nastiest creature ever?
Kevin Pavlidis: They can be, but they're also the most intelligent lizards. Like, monitors and iguanas are definitely, like, the most intelligent lizards. And so my buddy Tom Tom Crutchfield, you know Same. Author of this book. But, he does some incredible work with the monitors that he has. I mean, he's gotten them where, people have he actually so he's got these these, forgetting the name of them right now, but they're these mass croc monitors. That's what they are. It's got these huge, huge monitors. They're one of the biggest species in the world. And Like, how big would that be?
Tom Rowland: How long would that that be?
Kevin Pavlidis: Don't quote me on it, but I think they can crack eight feet.
Tom Rowland: What? So, like, almost the size of a alligator. Like, these things are
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. They get they get big. Like, I mean, he's he's got some of them that are as wide as your torso.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: And, they so what's interesting about them is people typically think that they're crazy, but he has a couple of them that will just walk right up to you. And as well, it's all the way all about how you behave with them and everything, but he's a master of just reptile. His famous quote is, it's only when the keeper and the kept lose their fear of each other that we can find out the true personality of these animals. So when he goes in to interact with these giant monitors, he does his best to not make them afraid and his best to not be afraid himself and let the two animals interact back and forth. And he's got these monitors that are friendly. I mean, they'll come right up to you, and they're curious. They wanna know who you are and what you're doing and just tongue flicking and everything. And it's, but they're I mean, you would not wanna take a bite off of one of them, but just the the relationship he's developed with them never ceases to amaze me. It's truly incredible what he's done with them. But the rhino iguanas that he has are definitely the most social of these big lizards that he has. They'll come right up to you. And they want to be touched. They wanna be interacted with. And all of these big animals that they can be so dangerous, and people have this perception of as being so aggressive and territorial and defensive and just beat you up. If there's a skilled handler and they know how to interact with this animal over time and teach it to not be afraid, all that comes down. Those walls come down, and they can be incredibly social, incredibly just good to interact with. And it it's mind blowing what I've seen Tom do with these Wow. Lizards. Like And
Tom Rowland: where does where does he have his headquarters? Or or where is he? Homestead. Homestead. Okay.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Wow.
Tom Rowland: That's cool. And what does he have, like, a a a some sort of a a thing that people can go to and and look at this, or is it more of a private kind of
Kevin Pavlidis: It's his private collection. He does a lot of breeding and, on select species, and he was he used to breed iguanas that were worth, like, $10,000 a piece. Really? Because the the color phases that he was able to develop were just out of this world. I mean, just neon red, neon orange, neon yellow, just the most jaw dropping lizards you've ever seen in person. And, I I'm not really sure how everything worked out, but after, you know, Florida Fish and Wildlife banned the green iguana, I know that he had it created a lot of complications for him and his breeding program, but I'm sure he's worked out all the details. He's a very by the book person.
38:39 · The Iguana Problem in South Florida
Tom Rowland: Well, the iguanas the iguanas are not having any problem in South Florida. They seem to, just be everywhere. I mean, everywhere. Yeah. What do you what, what's this what's the status as far as you know of of of the iguana? And, also, then I wanna kinda segue into, the python and the snake and what's going on in the Everglades.
Kevin Pavlidis: So the iguanas in general I mean, the overall thing is, yes, they're a nonnative species, but they're also herbivores. So the green iguana in terms of the invasive species of Florida, I think they're a little overhyped. I think that they've been demonized so much, but a lot of people don't realize that the main thing that iguanas do is annoy people. Like, they poop on the side of their pools. They eat their hibiscus. They destroy their flower beds. And so that's really, like that's where it's a weird line because they don't actually affect the native animals that much since they are herbivores, but they definitely annoy people and burrow into the levee system, so they start causing erosion.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's
Kevin Pavlidis: what I've
Tom Rowland: always heard. People get mostly the most upset about them burrowing behind the seawall. And Yeah. That can be, I mean, that can be a big problem, I would imagine, because even if the seawall is is damaged or cracks or whatever, sometimes now there's a permit situation that might not be that easy to fix that.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: I don't know. I mean, I know that that when you start talking about seawalls and pilings and things like that, that's like it's a whole different it's a whole different kind of permit process.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I'm sure.
40:25 · The 198-Pound Python and Taxidermy Beetles
Tom Rowland: So what about the Everglades? You sent me a picture not too long ago of a of of a a giant one caught there. What was that?
Kevin Pavlidis: Giant python?
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. You sent me you sent me one. Right? Like
Kevin Pavlidis: Ironically, I have to say, can you be more specific? I've caught quite a few.
Tom Rowland: No. No. You you caught one, but I thought you said I thought you sent me one. I'll look back through here, but I thought you sent me one. It was like, this is the check out this one. It's like the biggest one ever or something.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. So it's a new so it's it it wasn't actually a record breaker, but it was very, very close. So recently, just about a month ago, we had actually, it was less than a month ago. We had a 198 pound Burmese python removed from the Everglades. And so it was actually the second heaviest that's ever been caught. It was surpassed only by one other snake that was the the record for weight is actually 215 pounds, and that was removed by the Conservancy of Southwest Florida. And, my, close friend of mine, Kyle Findlay, was actually on the team at the time helping the it was found via radio telemetry, and they were tracking out to a male Burmese python, and he led them to this monster snake that was out there. Wow. But this is the second heaviest. So the 198 pounder is the second heaviest that's ever been found. And I actually was doing, I do taxidermy on the side, and I specialize in Burmese pythons and reptiles in general. So, like, that's a full Burmese python skeleton I did in the back, and I've got all sorts of stuff around my house. But that 198 pounder was dropped off at my house for taxidermy. So I had the snake, and it was it was a beast, dude. I mean
Tom Rowland: And and how will you Yeah. How will you mount that? Like like, what what do they want? They want the, like, the skin on it or or, like, the the skeleton mount like you do or, like, what
Kevin Pavlidis: just want the skin and the skull in this case. But I you know, obviously, the to do the full skeleton is the most expensive option for sure. It just takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, but most people typically just want the skin and the skull. Yeah. And I do have a pretty steady supply of people bringing in Burmese pythons for taxidermies. When you
Tom Rowland: do the when you do the skeleton mounts like that, do you use beetles or, like, how do you do that?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. So I have a colony of dermestid beetles, and, they're they're pretty voracious. They eat pretty their appetite is incredible sometimes. So I always have to try to just keep them fully fed all the time, always have something in the tank for them to feed off of. But the dermisid beetles, they're they're a species of carrion beetle, and they predominantly I mean, they they mostly eat the meat that's on the skeletons Mhmm. But they will eat other parts of the animal. And the really, the only way that it applies to me is I know that they will eat cartilage if they don't have they'll eat the meat first, then they'll eat the cartilage. So my goal with the beetle colony is to put something in there and then pull it out where they've had just enough time to eat all the meat off of it. But pull it out before they start eating all the cartilage because then everything will start to just fall apart.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: So it's a it's a very specific time frame in there. When I have a big skeleton that's in there, I'll set a timer and literally check it every three hours when it's getting close to being done. So I pull it out before they start chewing into the cartilage, and then it becomes a big jigsaw puzzle for me.
Tom Rowland: I'm sure. A snake jigsaw puzzle. That would be, very difficult to do. Have you ever done, like, a fish? I mean, do those those same beetles, would they, like, if you wanted to do a fish, skull, like, some people would do, like, a a swordfish skull or or barracuda skull or something like that or or the whole fish. I've seen the whole fish be done before. Is that the same type of beetle that would would he would do that?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. They're really not picky. I've done I I don't do many fish skulls, but I did do a big barracuda for some recent someone recently. And I've done an arapaima in the past. I've also done snakeheads, and, I tried to do a largemouth bass that I found that was a a floater.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: And I was like, that looks pretty nasty, but it's a decent sized fish. I'm curious what the beetles will do with it. Just the problem with them is that the like, mammals and reptiles, their skulls are held together more. But fish, they have so many, like, loosely connected bones. Like, a lot they they don't have almost no cartilage.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Kevin Pavlidis: Like, it's just stuck together. So as soon as they you know, the meat comes off, they just start to just, like, fall apart. So it's a lot more gluing, and they are like, the barracuda head I just did, oh my god. There was so much oil and just grease trapped in the bones. I degreased it for months trying to get all the oil out. Yeah. And, eventually, I just kinda gave up with it. Like, alright. It's white enough. It's fine. And I talked to other people that do the same kind of mounts, and they said sometimes they soak it for six months to a year before it's, like, white. Wow. So I prefer to do reptiles. I will pick up, a fish project here and there, but it's not my specialty. Yeah. I'm much better at working with reptiles. I know the anatomy and bones
Tom Rowland: a lot better.
46:05 · What a Python Can (and Can't) Swallow
Tom Rowland: This 198 pounder, and you got to see this thing. And did it have, like, anything in it that would make it, you know, 40 pounds heavier than normal or, like, a deer or something like that? Or is this just that was just that snake was that big?
Kevin Pavlidis: So there we don't there have been records that are actually heavier than that, but it's it's really from what I know, some of the radio telemetry teams have tracked out to their animals, and they have basically a full size deer in them. And so at that point, you're looking at a body weight. I've heard that it's probably roughly, like, two hundred fifty pounds when they've combined animals like that, but they don't really count that
Tom Rowland: because
Kevin Pavlidis: it's not it's not really the true weight of the animal. So if you wanted to do that, technically, there's been one that was, like, two hundred and fifty pounds, but it was just a radio telemetry team keeping up with their animal, and it had a huge prey item in it. And they field weighted at, like, 250 pounds. So it's yeah. But these snakes, both of them, the 215 and the 198, upon necropsy, we found deer hooves in their stomachs, but the entire animal had already been completely digested. It's nothing but hoof cores that are left, and I actually did save them for the client. They wanted them. But interestingly, they the pythons can digest basically the entire animal except the hooves and the fur. So, like, they'll poop out the fur and the hooves, and a lot of times, the hooves will actually stay in their GI tract. So inside the actual stomach of the snake while I was necrotizing it, I was like, whoop. There's something in here. Cut it open. Sure enough, deer hooves was in there.
Tom Rowland: Wow. What about antlers?
Kevin Pavlidis: So I don't know that we've really officially documented it, but I'm fairly certain that they would digest those completely. What I do know, not really in Florida, but I have seen videos of African rock pythons, eating, like, I guess it's gazelle over there or or pronghorns, whatever it is. But they, yeah, they'll and they'll go open their mouths and go over the antlers and just swallow that whole animal. And you'd think that those antlers would just stab right back through them, but, apparently, they just choke them down Wow. And digest the whole thing.
Tom Rowland: So let's say that a that a a big snake like that one, the 198 pounder, that, you know, I I guess does it know it should be eating, you know, antlerless deer? Or I guess it could conceivably, if it's dark or whatever, you it gets a a big male deer and, bites it, chokes it, kills it, and then tries to eat it head first and can't, then what would they do? I don't know. I mean, is is that a realistic situation or, like, it seems like it would be?
Kevin Pavlidis: It probably is. I mean, I guess the the real question would be to go back to their native range in Southeast Asia and see what the native, you know, large game mammals that are there look like and if they have that scenario. So I would assume if they have that scenario in their native range, they're prepared to deal with it. Since they're an invasive species in Florida, they're not exactly genetically designed for the animals here even if they are good at consuming them. I could definitely see that being a problem if they get one where the antlers are way out. Mhmm. It could definitely be an issue. But also Florida deer in general, typically, especially South Florida deer, run a lot smaller.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Then But still, you got, like, a a rack on there, which would seem like very very difficult to to eat. When when when they get a deer, do they typically eat it head first or the Always. Always head first? Yeah. And they'll eat almost everything head first? Or The whole thing. Do eat everything head first?
Kevin Pavlidis: They eat everything head first. It's instinctual for them. Once they get a hold of it, constrict it, it's dead. They navigate back to the head and just start from there and just go all the way over. So I guess I mean, theoretically, if the antler rack is no bigger than the widest part of the deer's torso, geometrically, it's such still work. You know? Yeah. Because if they're gonna go over, like, the widest part of the deer anyway, as long as it's the same width, they should be able to get it down.
Tom Rowland: You've never seen one with with antlers, though? Any kind of a
Kevin Pavlidis: So far, I haven't heard anything of it. Yeah. But it I'm sure it's happened somewhere in the wild of Florida, and, no one's been around to witness it.
Tom Rowland: Well, certainly just a spike, you know, like a a, you know, a a small young
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. That wouldn't even
Tom Rowland: buck. They just go right, you know, eat that. But once those once the antlers start to to, like, fork, seems like that would be really hard for a snake to eat that. But a 200 pound snake, how big is the is the head on that snake?
Kevin Pavlidis: Wow. Probably like that.
Tom Rowland: Like, the size of a good sized dog. Like, you're bigger than a dog.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I mean, we when they get to be that size, we just start calling them two handers because where it's you need two hands to go all the way around the neck. Wow. That's when you're like, that's pretty big snake.
51:49 · Catching a Two-Hander: Get to the Head
Tom Rowland: And so when you're gonna go when you find one like that, a really big one, maybe maybe it's the record, maybe it's close to the record. You've caught plenty of tons of big ones. How do you you you got a two hander. Right? Like, how how are you going to approach that to to actually catch it?
Kevin Pavlidis: Number one goal is get to the head. Because once once you get control of the head, you're starting to be able to win the battle. Mhmm. If you don't get to the head, you don't have that snake captured. When you get a big one by the tail, which is, you don't wanna be in that scenario, Once they tuck in behind branches and vegetation, if they're over 12 feet and you have them by the tail, you are not going to be able to pull them out. You're gonna have to anchor in and have somebody else go up the body or you yourself figure out a way to get up the body until you can get to the head. Because once they get around a tree or something, they're way too strong. They'll just drag you away. So if it's a really, really big one, we're trying to get to the head because once we get the head, the battle's not over, but we're starting to get into the bracket where it's like, okay. We got this under control. We can deal with the coils and everything after and take it from here. So if I can get to the head, boom, dive on it right away, grab it, tuck in hard, and be ready for the battle that's gonna come after that. If you can't get to the head, reach as close to the head as we can, grab on a lot of times to the belly scales underneath because there's more give to them. Lock into that as hard as you can and anchor and hope somebody else can leapfrog over me. And, there's actually there's we've been in scenarios before where the vegetation is so dense that I mean, the snake is dragging you away, and all I have is just whatever I can grab onto. And my buddy Anthony and I are, you know, dynamic duo. We always always go out together, especially when we're in breeding season, and we know it's gonna be all hands on deck. We will we have a pat we don't even talk about it. We already have it ironed out, but we leapfrog. So it's like if I get a tail grab, he'll immediately jump over my back, reach as far up as he can, grab onto the belly scales of the snake, hold it in place. Whenever he's like, alright. I got it. You go. I let go of my section, jump over him, reach up, grab in, and we'll repeat that process until we get to the head. And, I mean, it's it's even then, it's a battle sometimes.
Tom Rowland: And that thing's not gonna turn around and bite you?
Kevin Pavlidis: At that point, their main objective is to get away. Uh-huh. If they can get their head into dense vegetation or into the water, their main reflex is going to be to just keep trying to drag you away and get away from you. Once you have them out in the open and they feel like they can't get away, then they'll typically turn and come after you. But it's only when you reach that point where they feel like they can't get away. If If they feel like they can get away, they'll just drag you away. Just keep going. And they're so powerful that I mean, there's I know quite a few people who have stories of, like, they're just hanging on, and that snake just dragged them away like it was nothing. Wow. I've seen we had one one year that was, it was, like, fifteen two or something like that, fifteen foot two inches. And my buddy at the time was, like, two hundred fifty pounds, maybe more. And he got it by the tail, and I was going in after the head. And he was pulling back as hard as he could, and it dragged him, like, 20 feet. Like, literally, his feet had there were drag marks in the dirt.
Tom Rowland: For a two hundred and fifty pound dude.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. He's anchored in as hard as he can, and it was just dragging him just slowly and steadily. His feet were just scraping the dirt as it dragged him away. Wow. Until I got to the head, and then it's they're built for for for they only they actually inchworm is their main way of locomotion. And, I have a couple videos on my page about it where you can see the way that they really they travel on a straight line and they inchworm. They'll only do the s shape when they're spooked and they wanna take off fast. But so when you have them anchored, you got them by the tail and they're dragging you, they're just inchworming their way forward slowly but surely just gaining traction over and over again, but they can't really back up. So they're always moving forward. So once I get to the head, it doesn't matter where the rest of the body is. Once I get the head, I know the body is gonna inchworm and slinky its way back up to me. So I get the head, then just drag it out of the vegetation, and we'll deal with it after. Unless they're in rocks, then they just puff up and wedge themselves in, and it becomes a lot harder.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
56:41 · Breeding Season and Snake Aggregations
Tom Rowland: I would imagine. So what, like, you were so talking about you and your buddy, is that the ultimate to have two people, or or what's the what would you consider, like, the number of people that it takes to to do this effectively?
Kevin Pavlidis: It depends on the situation. So what we really need a hands on deck for is peak of breeding season because towards in the beginning of breeding season, we typically only get single snakes or pairs, meaning two at a time, but, male and female side by side sitting on top of each other. Once we get in a late breeding season, whatever snakes haven't been removed yet, find each other. And there's been a couple times where we've come up on five pythons all laying on top of each other or in the same general area. And that's when, like, if we had a third person, it's extremely beneficial because it's just a mayhem. And we've had the last time, we've had five snake breeding aggregations where we got all five. Wow. And we've had five snake breeding aggregations where we only get four. One gets away. But, we're pretty good. We don't lose much. But still, like, when you have that many snakes going on, it's it gets to be crazy where there's a good chance you're gonna lose something, so go for the big ones or go for the easy ones. And our technique now when we're in that season is we literally keep snake bags on our hips. And the second we get one under control, boom. Throw in the bag, tie it off, boom. Move to the next one. Move to the next one. But I had at one point, I had a snake in this hand and then two snakes by the tail. So I had to put this one in the crook of my knee and pin it with my knee, and then I had one hand on each tail tucked in and just bent over, just holding on as long as I could while my buddy Anthony went and got the head from the first one, brought that back, then started going after the third one. And it's that stuff is chaos in that moment.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: So at that time of year, we will typically call in a third person, but most of the year, we can handle it with just two people.
Tom Rowland: What is that time of the year?
Kevin Pavlidis: So their breeding season starts I mean, they actually start finding each other in September already. They'll start to kinda get a gauge on where they're gonna move towards for the winter. But by November, they're starting to narrow down their search. They're starting to dial in where they're gonna spend the winter. They'll typically start actually mating, depending on the weather, anywhere from December, January, February. Most of daytime activity takes place in the month of January. However, those big aggregations are always in February. It's very rare to get them before that. And it just part of it is just it takes time, time for all those snakes to find each other and aggregate together. So late season. And typically, by March, our season for breeding is pretty much over.
Tom Rowland: And then what's how how does the behavior change once that is over?
Kevin Pavlidis: It's so March and April being the times of year where breeding has just finished, it's the slowest time of the year for us. They are exhausted from all the breeding activity that they've done. You know, these males, a lot of the females typically pick a spot and stick there. The males will move sometimes miles all season long, and they'll go from, like, being real fat and healthy at the beginning of fall winter. And by the spring, they're all shriveled up and shrunk in. And, actually, it's a, there's a scientific word for it. It's reproductive aphasia. And it basically means during the breeding season while they're reproducing, they don't eat at all, and their bodies, because of the breeding activity, are just burning off their reserves, and they get smaller and smaller and smaller. So when they're done with breeding season, they're smoking a cigarette, laying back, curled up in the bushes. They don't want anything to do with it. And then it's a lag period. Typically, until we start getting our spring raining season, that's when they start to pick up their activity again and move back towards looking for food.
Tom Rowland: So in your opinion, or or what what's your favorite time of the year to to be hunting for the
Kevin Pavlidis: the snakes? It's February for sure. It's it's funny too because it's it gets so crazy that it I don't even get excited when it's happening. I just get anxious and nervous, but the ride home after a successful day in those conditions is where, like, the adrenaline, like, wears off, and I realize, like, oh my god. That was crazy. But in the moment, it's just like, oh, man. There's so much going on. Like, be focused. Be ready. Boom. Dive on them, and, nothing gets the blood pumping, like, walking up on just a pile of snakes.
Tom Rowland: That sounds that sounds not that much fun for me, but you obviously get very excited about it.
61:48 · The State of the Fight and a Record Year of 368 Pythons
Tom Rowland: And so, what about the status of the Python in in the Everglades now? Do you think that that you guys are making any progress on the numbers? Or, what what what do you think the the status of the population of the of this invasive species in the Everglades is?
Kevin Pavlidis: So it's hard to say. One of the main reasons it's hard to say is just because of the habitat itself. The Everglades is a giant swamp. It's a lot of it's underwater, a lot of it's flooded, and they love that. It's perfect for them. But we typically only interact with them on what we consider to be accessible areas. So levees, highways, road systems, high dry ground that we've basically built. And it creates corridors. It creates diversity of habitat that they might like. But it's hard to say about the entire Everglades since so much of it is just open open flow around.
Tom Rowland: Just just in the areas that you that you regularly go, the accessible areas, what you just described. Do you notice a decline in the numbers? Do you notice, that it seems to be under control or that it's going wild? Like, what's your kinda gut reaction, do you think?
Kevin Pavlidis: So we're just starting to have enough data to try to answer that question. One of the things we've noticed is in certain locations, the average size has decreased. Particularly on the l 28 levy, a lot of people say that the average size has gone down dramatically. But it's also hard to draw a strict conclusion because these animals' movements are affected by a lot of things, most notably is water levels. The higher the water, the easier it is for them to travel. So we typically catch more on high water years than dry years. So that changes the dynamic also. So a lot of people want to say that we are having an impact in certain regions, certain areas of our project area, And I'd also like to believe that, but it's also hard to say when you consider all the factors that are involved. What I will say for sure is that we're never gonna get all of them. So the goal for me is not we're gonna get every single one. It's it's we're gonna get as many as we can. And for me, since that's not a realistic goal to get rid of every single one because of their behavior and the remoteness of the places that they go, I don't focus on let's get them all. I focus on every single one that I take out, which is an invasive apex predator not supposed to be here. That invasive apex predator is killing our native wildlife. And everyone that we take out means that that snake is not gonna be killing our native wildlife anymore. So my perspective is every single invasive Burmese python removed from the Everglades saves the lives of that many native wildlife animals, and that's the goal. I think about the native animals that I saved their lives because they would have been killed by this python if I had left it in the Everglades.
Tom Rowland: Wow. Interesting. And so in the course of a year, you or or your typical kind of hunter, contract hunter, how many do you think that you're capturing and taking out of the Everglades?
Kevin Pavlidis: I average one to 300 per year. My record is 368 in a year. I'd say for the most people that most of the professionals, probably 20 to 30, and then the upper percentage bracket get anywhere from, you know, 50 to a 150 every year depending on the year. Wow.
Tom Rowland: But you're getting 300 some years.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. That was I mean, I don't That year was also I was I was being a psycho about it. Like, I I just didn't take any days off. So, basically, what happened is I I found I was determined to set a record that year, and I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I just didn't stop. Just every single day, just nonstop. So I had one of the records I set that year was, I found a whole bunch of so I found a baby, and I was able to trace that baby back to where they were coming from. So I found more and more and more and more. So in one night, I was able to remove 32 babies, and I was like, okay. Let's do it again. And I came back the next night, caught 15, came back the night after, caught another five, I think it was. All in all, I removed 52 from just that nest.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: And as soon as I did that, that was already a record for the program. And I was like, okay. I already broke a record. Now let me take this record so high that nobody ever touches this record again. So ice hunted every single day of that month, which was July, every single day through, and I caught a 113 pythons that month.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: And at that point, I was like, alright. Let's just keep it going. Let's make this year now. Let's break the record for the year, and it's yeah. 368 was what I ended the year with.
Tom Rowland: Wow. That's crazy.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. So when you're in that year
Tom Rowland: What? Yeah.
Kevin Pavlidis: Also in that year, I caught every single size python that exists from hatchlings, which are about two feet, three foot, four foot, five foot, six foot, seven foot, eight foot, nine foot, 10 foot, 11 foot, 12 foot, 13 foot, 14 foot, 15 foot, 16 foot, 17 foot, and we got the state record at eighteen nine that year also.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Kevin Pavlidis: So it was blue that that year, will never be touched again for my own re I don't I'll never have a year like that again. I don't expect to. It was such an incredible year.
Tom Rowland: That's crazy. And, obviously, that's got some financial gain to that. Right? Like, you I mean, you get paid on each one that you get, or how do you how does that work?
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah.
67:57 · The Money, the No-Sleep Life, and Following Snakeaholic
Kevin Pavlidis: So the it it's broken down in two ways. We do get paid hourly to go out there. And depending on the zones that we're in. Sometimes it's 13 an hour, sometimes it's 18 an hour. And then we get paid incentives for the snakes that were removed proportionate to the length of the animal. So it's bracketed. The first zero to four feet is $50, and then it's $25 a foot for every foot over four feet. So a 10 foot snake works out to $200, but nobody does it solely for the money. Like, it there's not enough money in it. If you don't love it or have a passion for it, you're not gonna make a profit on it. Mhmm. And you have to factor in all the other expenses. So the main one is gas. People don't realize how much fuel you're burning when you're out there every single night. It burn a fuel full tank of gas every night in my car. Every single night. So it's like that adds up really, really quick. I also pretty much always now hunt with another professional hunter. So when we do catch a snake, we split the bounty in half between us. So if you don't love it and you're not passionate about it, you're not gonna make a dime on it. And even then, nobody's getting rich off of it. But there is some financial aspect to it for sure. Yeah. Try to sustain yourself.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. But then you got, I mean, you've parlayed it into other things like taxidermy and and Yep. I don't know, other, other pursuits, I would imagine, and then you, you've got your gig at the at the park. So most most people that are doing it professionally probably have some other job that they're also doing.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. I only know one person right now who's doing it as, like, a full full time job with no side hustles. And, yeah, I mean, he's he's doing better than the other people because he's taking it as a full time job, but, again, he ain't he's not buying a yacht.
Tom Rowland: Right. And and when you if you were to take it as a full time job, would you still only hunt certain times of the day, or could you would you be like, well, if I didn't have a job, I would I would hunt from morning till night. Like, I mean, what is there is there, like, the most productive time and that's just you're just gonna take it more seriously and you're gonna be out there more nights or or what?
Kevin Pavlidis: I mean, if you are trying to take it as a full time job, there's something to be said about running the clock. But for me, it's always calculated in terms of the movement of the animals. It just kinda depends. Like, we noticed that with our summertime movements, although they move fairly strong through most of the night, there is a drop off after 3AM where your odds of catching become very marginal. And the same thing happens with the daytime activity. It's like there's it's usually based on the sun angles. So there's there'll be a window. Like, in the morning, when the sun hits this angle, we're good. They'll be here. But by the time it hits this angle, all those snakes are going back into hiding. So when we pass that threshold, call it, go home. It's probably not worth it. But, the the time frame's varied throughout the entire year.
Tom Rowland: Wow. How do you manage the no sleep? Like, when you're staying out till three in the morning and then you then you have another job. Right? Like, I mean and I'm sure that's what Yeah. A lot of people are doing. They're balancing this. Like, they they do this because they're they're passionate about it, or maybe they're trying to make extra money, but still, you're out there until one or two or 03:00 in the morning. And, I mean, that's when you stop hunting. So what Yeah. You got an hour drive back home. Yep. Like, so how does that how does that how do you balance that?
Kevin Pavlidis: First and most important thing is my bedroom is a cave. I literally have blacked out all the windows with tinfoil, black cloth over them. Like, my room is so blacked out that the first time that my girlfriend slept over well, now ex girlfriend, but we're still friends. Everything's good. But, the first time that she slept over, she was like, it's so dark in here. I'm actually uncomfortable. Like, can we put, like, a nightlight on or something? I was like, yeah. I got you. Plugged one in. But, that really I didn't realize how much of a difference it makes, but when you get home at 7AM and you wanna go to bed, you I black out the whole room, and I wear a sleep mask on top of that. So it's just dark, as dark as could be, and that makes a big, big difference. But, also, my manager at, at Holiday Park with the gators, he specifically told me he was like, if you are hunting the night before, you have to call it off so you can still get eight hours of sleep because you can't have that risk in there, and you do not wanna make mistakes in the gator pit. So he was very strict about that, and obviously, I'm not perfect with that. I have had nights where I'm out a little bit later than I wanted to be, and I just a little groggy in the pit. Like, what are we doing? Wrestling gators? Alright.
Tom Rowland: That
Kevin Pavlidis: guy. But, typically, if I do work the next morning, I won't hunt the night before. Yeah. That's my typical rule. But if the snakes are moving, I'm going. Right.
Tom Rowland: Wow. That's awesome, man. You got, you obviously know a tremendous amount about reptiles and snakes, and, it's really cool to talk to you and and learn more because I don't I don't really know anything about it. It's fascinating, though. It's a fascinating world of people that hunt them, and the fact that they're this invasive apex predator that is loose and just, like, thriving in the Everglades and that people like you go out there and get them, it's it's fascinating. I think it I think it's really interesting. And then, I mean, this these these animals, like a 200 pound snake, like Yeah. It's just like I don't know. It's like it's it's crazy. But, if people, they they want to, learn more about what you do, At snakeaholic, that's the that's your Instagram. Is there other is there other ways to to follow what you do? Do you have YouTube? Or
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Yeah. Snakeaholic is all my media. So it's, you know, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, all that stuff. I've just made it all the same across the board. Got the trademark for snakeaholic, so it's fully branded. And a lot of stuff is duplicated posts, but there is different stuff between different platforms also. So, like, my YouTube videos are, you know, much longer than my Instagram and TikTok and Facebook videos and stuff like that. So I try and split it up. But, yeah, it's I mean, that kind of passion for this stuff, man, it's it runs deep. And I've been working I I'd like to say this all the time. I've been working with captive Burmese pythons since I was 11 years old, and I started working with snakes when I was seven years old. So I love snakes. You know, it's not it has nothing to do with, you know, like, evil snakes. No. I love them a 100%. It has nothing to do with snakes, the removal of the Burmese python. It's that it's an invasive species and particularly an apex predator that kills our native wildlife. So that's why I'm in on it. But the whole lifetime of growing up catching snakes for fun, taking photos of them, videos, letting them go, all that was like training to make me into the alpha Burmese python hunter that I've built myself into over the past couple of years.
Tom Rowland: That's so cool, man.
Kevin Pavlidis: Deep seated passion for it.
Tom Rowland: That's so cool. Well, I appreciate you coming on and telling us all all these cool stories. And, if you want to, follow snakeaholic at snakeaholic, that's the that's the place to go. And, I hope you get a lot of new followers. You should definitely check him out, man. He's got lots of lots of cool stuff on his, on his Instagram. Kevin, thanks for being on, and, we'll have you on again.
Kevin Pavlidis: Yeah. Sounds good, Tom. Appreciate it.
Tom Rowland: Right on, man. Thanks. See you.