Jonathan Gluck | How Fly Fishing Helped Him Beat Cancer for 20+ Years | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 986

Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 986: Jonathan Gluck

In this episode: a slip on the ice that uncovered a tumor at 38, eighteen months to live turned into twenty-one years, fly fishing “almost like oxygen,” the Patagonia trip he almost canceled, and a hospital sticky note that read “every day above Earth is a good day” — in the exact words spoken.

00:00 · Cold Open

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Jonathan Gluck: Hi. I'm John Gluck, the author of An Exercise in Uncertainty, and this is the Tom Roland Podcast.

01:51 · Victor, Idaho and a Humbling Salmon Fly Hatch

Tom Rowland: John, how are you doing, man?

Jonathan Gluck: I'm good. Thanks. How are you, Tom?

Tom Rowland: I'm doing great. We were just talking beforehand about some familiar areas for both of us, Victor, Idaho and the and the surrounding area. Beautiful beautiful area. You've been fishing out there for a long time?

Jonathan Gluck: I have been. Yeah. And, you know, I I write a little bit in the book about how, I got started in fishing out in Jackson and then started fishing over on the Idaho side across the pass, and I've been kind of addicted to it ever since.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that is that is my, there's that's a place close to my heart. I used to live in Jackson on Crabtree Lane, and, we fished all of those rivers over there, but we had a, we had a permit on the South Fork Of The Snake River. And that was, what I consider in its heyday. It was full of cutthroats, and it was amazing fishing back then. I'm sure you experienced that. The dry fly fishing that we had out there was just amazing. Still a fantastic river, just a little different today.

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I I'm I'm with you across the board. Near and dear to my heart, the the glory days were something really special and, still terrific. Although I must admit, I was there just about ten days ago, tried to time the salmon fly hatch, and I I'm afraid to report that the fish maybe got the better of me this time, but, you know, it happens.

Tom Rowland: Where were you, I was assumed that you would be early for the salmon fly hatch if you didn't catch many fish, but were you early or late? Or

Jonathan Gluck: I was on time, which was even more frustrating. I mean, there were plenty of salmon flies. Fish just weren't eating them. You know, they were, tucked under the undercut banks and, you know, it was super technical, and you had to be razor tight to the bank and maybe, you know, whip off a quick mend and, like, a picture perfect presentation. And we got a few nice ones, but, it was maybe above my pay grade as far as my talent level as an angler goes.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that is you know, of of all the things in in fishing, saltwater, freshwater, that salmon fly hatch, if you haven't seen that as a as an angler, that is, like, one of the what I would put on my list as one of the one of the top things in fishing. It's just so cool. You have these giant bugs, the salmon flies. I'd put that right up there with a palolo worm hatch or, like, just one of these events that is just so special. It's hard to even describe, but that area, right right where you were, as you know, one of the best places for it, it's it's incredible. I would wait for that every every year. That would kick off then, you know, it basically kicks off the season, the big salmon fly hatch. Okay. So what we're you you just wrote a new book called an exercise in uncertainty, and you have a very interesting story that that spans far beyond angling for for this audience, but but brings angling into it. So can you tell us a little bit about what the book's about?

04:53 · Diagnosed at 38: A Rare Blood Cancer and Fishing “Almost Like Oxygen”

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So it's about, an illness I've had for many years. I was diagnosed when I was 38 years old, with a very rare type of blood cancer called multiple myeloma. And at the time, I was told I might have as little as eighteen months to live, and that was going on twenty one plus years ago. And only through really, you know, incredible breakthroughs in the treatment of my illness and, revolutionary, you know, developments in cancer care in general, am I still here? And the fishing connection is a huge part of the book because as I write about pretty extensively, fishing before I got sick was always a really important part of my life, and I really enjoyed it for all the reasons all of us enjoy it, you know. But then after I got sick, it became even more important. I think I say in the book it was almost like oxygen to me. You know, it was just something I kind of desperately needed to do to get away from all my troubles with my illness or whatever else it might be. I think we can all relate to that to some degree. You know, we all know a day on the river beats a day just about anywhere else. But one of the things I learned was that fishing was even more valuable to me that way, in particular, the way it can command all of your attention and bring Yukon into the zone, for lack of a better word. And it just crowded out all these other troublesome thoughts.

06:23 · A River Runs Through It: How a Motel Desk Clerk Started It All

Tom Rowland: Very interesting. So you're you you live in New York. You're you're a writer for a lot of different magazines, including Vogue and New York Times and lots of others. I would imagine, lots of people are probably even listening, have probably read other things that you've written. When you were, doing this fishing, like, after you got sick, were you fishing in New York? Were you traveling or both? Or where did you have, like, a home water that you could go to very quickly?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. It's a it's a great question. And, you know, the truth is my home waters were sort of Jackson because my wife and I got our start fishing there. We were on vacation, This is many years ago, and we had kind of done all the things you might do in a place like that. We'd done some hiking. We'd done some biking. We'd done some rafting. And we went up to the desk clerk at the motel we were staying at and said, Yeah, we've done all these other things. Anything else you suggest we do while we're here? She said, Have you ever tried fly fishing? And my wife and I had both grown up fishing with, like, with our parents and grandparents, but in the really kind of like, you know, I don't know what you'd call it, simplistic way. You know, we'd go to, like, stock ponds and my grandfather would chuck a can of corn into the water or some of that trout feed. And it would be like a you know, it was more like catching than fishing, as they say. But neither of us had fly fished. Coincidentally enough, that was around the same time that A River Runs Through It came out, and everybody was talking about fly fishing, and it kicked off that kind of trend for the sport. You know? And so we were like, sure. We'd love to. And so she set us up with a guide. Next morning, he showed up. And, long story short, we had an incredible day. We've still got a picture hanging on the wall of our apartment of the first fish each of us ever caught. They were maybe, I don't know, 12 inch cutties, if that. But we're smiling like we caught like a state record trout, you know, both of us. So we still have that picture. And, we also happened to make sort of best friends with the guide that day. We all hit it off instantly. He introduced us to his girlfriend, and the four of us went out for drinks that night. And he and I have remained lifelong friends. He was a guy I was just fishing with last week. And yeah. So that's what got me started. And then, you know, traveling to fish can be expensive, as you know. So I kind of started to develop this side gig. My main job is as a magazine editor. But I developed a side hustle writing stories about fishing so I could help, you know, finance my travel and my habit. And through that, I've been incredibly lucky. I've gotten assignments to fish in Patagonia and Alaska and The Bahamas and Belize. So that's how I've kind of parlayed my, you know, interest into, you know, a regular habit without going broke.

Tom Rowland: Wow. And what were who would, what magazines were those stories for?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I've written for a bunch. The my most, I don't know, frequent outlet, I guess, is the New York Times travel section, and I've written for them four or five times. I've written for Garden and Gun. Many of your listeners are probably familiar with Garden and Gun. Fantastic magazine. Highly recommend you check it out if you haven't. And, yeah, a handful of others, but those have been kind of a couple of the big ones. Wow.

Tom Rowland: Very cool. Very cool. You've had a great, career writing, and you've been able to to bring your fishing into that. When you're not writing about fishing, what are you writing about?

Jonathan Gluck: Right now, I work for Fast Company magazine. So we cover, you know, the business world, entrepreneurship, technology, these days, a ton about artificial intelligence, as you might imagine, a ton about, you know, the changing ways people work, you know, hybrid work, work from home. And that's an area I've always been really interested in. Prior to that, I worked at New York Magazine for many years, and that was super fun working for a magazine that covers the city that you live in because I was always, you know, among the first people to know about whatever the next new restaurant was or the next trend or, for that matter, what was going on in city politics or you know? And I covered everything there from food and travel to politics and true crime. I'm kind of a true crime fan as a reader and a editor, so, certainly, there's no shortage of that, in our fair city here. So all those things have been, you know, things I've worked on in the past and things I've been interested in.

Tom Rowland: Did you ever have to write a bad food review for a restaurant, like, a really bad one?

Jonathan Gluck: It's funny. I I happen to be the editor of our food critic, so I wasn't writing those stories. But, he you know, I I edited a number of his stories and helped him publish those. And, yeah, those were always awkward. You know, I could almost, after we hit publish, you know, or the magazine came out on Monday morning, it was almost like a countdown until I'd get an email from the, you know, restaurateur or his representatives, you know, 321, and here comes the nasty email. So it wasn't any fun. On the other hand, you know, you're trying to do a public service and tell people, you know, what which places are worth their money and which aren't. So, you know, I do believe in the mission of it, but I realize it can be tough, you know, for people on the receiving end of a bad review.

11:52 · The Slip on the Ice That Uncovered a Tumor

Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, let's, let's get to the to the book here. I wanna I wanna kind of set the stage. Can you tell me, like, where you were, what you were doing when when you first kind of were were diagnosed, or how that even happened? Were you feeling bad? Was it like a a standard doctor's visit where you find this out? What what was the stage set?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a crazy story. So I left my office one night. I was 37 years old at the time, working in Downtown Manhattan. I walked out of my office. It was in November. And it was one of those nights where it wasn't quite raining. It wasn't quite snowing. It was kinda sleet, and it was cold. And so there was, like, a little thin sheet of ice on the ground. And I walked out of my office, I slipped on the ice, and I twisted my hip a little. I didn't even fall or anything like that. But, you know, I twisted it, and it was more almost like an awkward step. Woke up the next morning, and my hip hurt quite a bit. And I thought to myself, well, that's sort of strange. You know? I'm I guess maybe I'm getting older, and this is the sort of thing people start to say. You know? Like, every little twist or slip, you can pull a muscle or something. And so I thought, well, maybe that's it. Gave it a few weeks. It didn't go away. Went and saw my doctor. He took an X-ray. The X-ray didn't show anything. So I went back about my business. At the time, I was working in a new job that was very demanding. I, my wife and I had just moved into a new apartment, and I had a seven month old daughter. Well, we we had a a newborn in April '2 2023. And then November 2020 I'm sorry. I misspoke. 2003, not 2023. In November 2003, I realized it had been a whole year since I had slipped on the ice and my hip really still hurt. It was, in fact, worse. So I was having trouble standing up and sitting down, getting in and out of cabs, going upstairs, even having trouble picking up my daughter, even though she was, you know, only seven months old by then. And I thought, you know, it's been a year since this happened. I better go back to the doctor. Went back to the doctor. This time, he took an MRI, and his office called me and said, hey. You know, can you come in to talk about your test results with doctor Wiener? And this is how incredibly naive I was. I thought to myself, like, wow, you know, what a nice guy. Like, in this day and age, he's actually calling me in to tell me my test results face to face. You know, usually you get it over the portal or a phone call. So I went in, and the second I got there, I knew something was weird. The receptionist had, like, a really scared kind of look on her face when I got there, and she turned around and kind of made eye contact with one of the other staff members. And that woman took me, like, straight to the Examining Room. No waiting room. No forms. No, you know, no check your insurance or all the usual stuff. And I was like, well, something's not right here. And I sat down. And the second later, the doctor came in and he said to me, you know, I need to tell you there's a lesion on your hip. And I said, you know, lesion. What does that mean? Is that a tumor? And he said, Yeah, it's a tumor. And I said, you know, does that mean I have cancer? And he said, Yes. And just like that, I went from, you know, one second being healthy and having no risk factors or history of family disease and into being a cancer patient.

Tom Rowland: Wow. Wow. With a young daughter at home. And so what do you where do you go from there? Like, what is the mindset? What do you tell your wife? Like, what where do you go from there?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So, you know, there's that thing about the five stages of grief. I think that woman, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, you know, wrote, you know, famously about that. And the first one, I guess, is denial. And I had in my case, that was absolutely true. So the very first thing that came out of my mouth, I literally just said no. No. No. No. No. And then I said, you know, this can't be happening. Funny you mentioned my daughter. I said, you know, this can't be happening. I have a seven month old daughter. You know? It's just, you know, I sort of refused to believe it was true. Next thing I did, strangely enough, was call my office to tell him I couldn't come into work. I didn't tell him why, but, I think that also was part of, like, pretending everything was not that big a deal. It's like, as you know, I call them as if I had a cold or something. You know? Or, And then, I slowly began to wrap my mind around it and realized I also I think another reason I called my office first is I was just putting off calling anybody who really mattered to me, you know, my wife or my family. Then I realized, okay, I gotta figure out how to do that. And it so happened I had a therapist at the time who was a very lovely woman, and she I decided to call her and ask her what she suggested. And she very kindly offered to have me come see her right away and invite my wife to come to her office also so I could tell her, you know, with with her support. So that's how that went down. My wife was great about it. She's actually been through something like this or she had been before. When she was a kid, she lost her dad when she was very young, 14 years old. He had a heart attack in the middle of the night. So she was actually really steady about it and really, you know, calming influence, right out of the chute that day. And, yeah, we that was the beginning of, you know, what we at the time had no idea, you know, how long of a journey it would be. And now, happy to say, has been twenty plus years of, of, you know, going in and out of remission and had a lot of treatments. None of it's been all that fun. But, you know, here I am. I'm well. I'm relatively healthy, and hopefully, it'll stay that way.

17:40 · Months Without Answers and the Science of Not Knowing

Tom Rowland: So when you go to this first doctor and he tells you you you have you have this lesion on your hip, and he says this is you ask if it's cancer. He says yes. Does is he the the type of doctor that tells you, like, this is the type of cancer it is and this is the treatment and this is or or there isn't a treatment at this point? Like or or were you referred to another doctor, or how does that happen?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. Great question. I was, again, so naive about all this. You know, I I sort of wanted all the answers right at that moment. And one of the things the book title refers to, the idea of an exercise in uncertainty, is that I learned pretty quickly that there's very few ant solid answers with a disease as complex as the one I have. So, in fact, it took months before I had a firm diagnosis. I was referred to the initial MRI report said that the radiologist thought I had a type of bone cancer. So I was initially referred to a bone cancer specialist. He did a whole bunch more tests that took weeks, not just to line up the tests, get them scheduled, and to do them because it was many different types of tests, but also to get the insurance approvals. We all know what a hassle that can be and how difficult that you know, how much that can slow things down. So it wound up taking months wound up taking months before before I had a firm diagnosis, and that's when they realized I had a type of bone marrow cancer, not a type of bone cancer. There's a whole different medical specialty for that. So then I had to go see that doctor. And once I finally saw that doctor, he had me do a bunch more tests, you know, to sort of zero in on exactly what stage of illness I had. There are even subtypes of the subtype of illness I have, so he needed to know which of those it was. Once we got that all sorted out, that's when he we were able to start talking about what I really had, what the treatment options were, and what my prognosis might be.

Tom Rowland: So at that point, like, you you kind of are trying to figure out what exactly this is. So you don't really know, and there's a pretty long period there of not knowing. I mean, what how did how do you deal with that?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So one of the things I did for the book that turned out to be super interesting is I I did a bunch of research on how people cope with not knowing. Mhmm. And I found this, one woman. Her name is Kate Sweeney. She's a professor at the University of California, Riverside. She's a sociology professor, and she's kind of made it her life's work to study this very subject. And she had some fascinating research she told me about. They did a study once where they put people into two groups and told them that one group was gonna receive a small electrical shock and the other group would not, but they weren't told how long they would have to wait to know. And the incredible thing about it was, like, a huge portion of people, I don't remember the exact percentage, at one point pretty early on, pretty quickly in the experiment said, you know what? Just give me the shock. I I'd rather have the shock than sit here and have to wait and not know, which is really incredible. Right? It's like people would rather have the negative outcome than just, you know, be forced to wait to find out. And then I was talking to this woman, Kate Sweeney, about, you know, so what can people do, given that that's how bad we are as human beings at coping with uncertainty? And she said, you know, she had a lot of familiar advice, you know, good to distract yourself even with simple distractions. Better to distract yourself with something that really gets you into the zone, like I was saying before. And, you know, that could be baking. It could be knitting. It could be yoga. For me, it's fly fishing, you know? So I was lucky I had something like that. She also told me, you know, that so I said to her, Well, how do you cope with uncertainty? You're the expert. And she laughed. And she said, You know, people ask me that all the time. And she said, The honest answer is not very well. You know, she said, It's just really difficult for people to do even with some of these techniques. And I said, well, that's kind of depressing. And she said, you know, well, she said the way I like to look at it is I think it's helpful for people to know how hard it is because then they don't think it's them, you know, that they're the ones they're the only ones who aren't good at it. And just knowing that everybody struggles with it, I think, can be a relief to people. You know, that was her point, and I I agree with that.

22:15 · Eighteen Months to Three Years: Choosing to Fight

Tom Rowland: So the first kind of thing that I I keep thinking about, as as you're telling this story is, like, you're told I mean, is it is it correct that you were told that you had somewhere between, eighteen months and three years? Is that is that the right

Jonathan Gluck: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Diagnosis? So once you finally get to the right doctors, they diagnose the disease the right way, they give you between eighteen months and three years. And so it would seem like many different people would take that news in many different ways. Some people would have a very negative mindset about it's over. You know? Another person might have, I'm gonna I'm gonna do everything I can to fight it. Like, where where were you in that in that moment? When you find that that's what you that's what they're saying. You have eighteen months to three years. How do you kind of deal with that?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So I was, you know, I think from the get go, pretty determined to do everything I could to fight it. You know? I, I had lots to live for. You know, I had a good job. I enjoy my career. I have a beautiful wife. I had a brand new baby girl, most importantly. You know, I have family and friends and, you know, fishing. There are lots of stuff I wanted to do. I wasn't anywhere close to ready to quit, you know, or give up. That said, you know, there's this thing a lot of times people say, well, you know, you get sick. It helps to have an optimistic attitude. Like, I agree that it helps to have an optimistic attitude. It beats the alternative. You know? Why be miserable, you know, even in the face of something really tough? Like, let's try and figure this out. Let's try and see what our options are and do everything we can to hopefully have the best outcome possible. I do want to say, though, that sometimes when I hear that about, you know, people having a positive attitude, like, I don't think it's fair to put that on people. Like, your health is going to, you know, your outcome is going to be determined by your attitude. Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that. And, you know, you don't want to put any extra burden on somebody who's already going through something pretty challenging. So for me, it was about I'm a journalist. So for me, it's about, like, gathering information. And I kind of went into hyperdrive that way and tried to find the best possible doctors I could, tried to learn everything I could about my illness. And luckily, one of the things I started to realize pretty quickly is that there weren't a lot of great treatments for what I had at that very moment. But one, my disease was caught pretty early, which was lucky. And two, there were a lot of new treatments in the pipeline. And one of my doctors said that to me pretty early on that, like, he said, listen, it's really unfortunate, obviously, that you have this illness. He said, but in a way, it's fortunate that you have it when you have it because we have a lot of exciting things coming down the pipe. And I thought, he's kind of blowing smoke. You know, he's just trying to give me a little hope initially. But now twenty one years later, that's exactly what's turned out to be true, like, miraculously. And I didn't really know this until I put together the timeline for the book in a very precise way. But, just about every time I've typically, what happens to me is they treat me, I go into remission, I come back out of remission, they treat me again, and so on. Pretty much every time I've needed a new treatment, one of these new breakthrough treatments has become available, like, within, in some cases, incredibly enough months of the, you know, time I needed it, in other cases, maybe a year or two. So it's just been a lot of good fortune, really, in that respect.

Tom Rowland: How do you know when you need a new treatment? Is that based on blood work or the way you're feeling or, like, all blood work?

Jonathan Gluck: All of the above. You know, sometimes I have new symptoms. One of the primary ways that my particular illness presents is through bone pain. You get these lesions on your bone like the one I have bones like the one I had initially on my hip. So I've had quite a few more of those over the years. And sometimes the first thing I notice is, you know, some bone pain. And, unlike the first time around, I don't wait a year now to get that checked out. I usually get it checked out right away. But I'm also they're watching me very carefully. So I get tested a whole variety of tests, scans, blood tests, and other things every three months, sometimes every six months. If I'm, you know, in a remission that's been lasting a while, they'll let me go a little longer. And so, you know, one of the tricks with all these illnesses is is to try and stay out ahead of them. So they watch me really carefully, and the minute they see anything cropping up again, they start to figure out a new treatment plan to knock it back.

27:04 · Finding Purpose: A Second Child and Doubling Down on Life

Tom Rowland: Interesting. I read that book, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. In that, he talks so much about mindset, attitude, and a purpose, having having, like, a purpose and how big of a deal that was for him and that he he accounts for that to be, you know, the reason that he survived and a lot of other people didn't is because he found purpose. Like, sometimes he had to look for it, like, struggle for it, and and, like, what what can what is the positive that can come out of this? And and it's a very interesting book. I just wonder like, I'm sure that you have tremendous purpose with your daughter and your family, but did you kind of go through that as well and and determine purpose for your life? Or or I don't know, like, what what that process is like when you're when you're diagnosed with that?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. It really does. You know, as so many people, that book and other people who've been through a diagnosis similar to mine, sometimes you hear the same thing from people who maybe have had a near death experience, a car accident or something. It really does make you realize, you know, what your priorities are, and what your purpose is, you know. And for me, that came in a couple different forms. One thing was, you know, a lot of people when they go through something like that think, oh, I'll quit my job and spend more time with my family or, you know, I'll do the thing I always love to do. Like, I'll, I don't know, move to Paris and learn how to cook or I'll become a fishing guide or There

Tom Rowland: you go. Yeah. That had to be a temptation, I'm sure. Like, you know, it would be so much. Like, I'm Believe

Jonathan Gluck: me, I thought about it. But one of the things that was interesting to me was that I realized I actually really like what I do. And so I just kind of doubled down on sticking with that and trying to do as much as I could in my career to help, you know, inform people, entertain them, maybe once in a while inspire them, you know, do the things that good journalism does. It also really I was already pretty interested in my family to begin with, and I'm kind of a family oriented guy. But, it got me all the more focused on my kids. It led me and my wife to decide we were going to have a second child, even though that was, you know, kind of a tricky conversation. You know, we had to have kind of talks that you'd never really expect you're going to have when you get married about, gosh, you know, should we go ahead and do this because you'll be the one left to be a single parent if I'm not here? We decided to go ahead and do that. So I have a son. My kids now are 22 and 17. My daughter's 22. My son's 17. So that helped me, you know, find more purpose in being a dad. And then, you know, not to necessarily equate it with those other two, you know, enormous things like your career and your wife and your children, but fishing too. It's like it just it's not the only thing I feel that way about. There are other things I love to do. But just when you think about the joy you get from whatever it is that you get joy from in your life, whether it's fishing or cooking or, like I said, knitting or yoga or whatever, you know, badminton doesn't matter, that feeling was something I just wanted to have more of, to put it super simply, you know, and just, you know, so I recommitted on that front also to do as much fishing as I could, you know, within reason, as somebody who had a full time job, lives in New York, has a wife and kids. And that's kinda where I got the idea for doing some of this writing about fishing too is that I had to figure out a way to to fish more in a way that I could afford and still got me out to some of the dream spots that we all, as anglers, hope to get into one day. And it was really powerful motivation for me to do that.

30:47 · Dream Waters and a Secret Idaho Barn

Tom Rowland: So if you were to think about, like, what fishing has done for you over this over this period of time, and you're to think about, like, there is an an ultimate scenario, Freshwater, saltwater, I don't care. Like, what would your to to resolve as much pain and and anguish as possible, what's the ultimate scenario that you could come up with right off the top of your head?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I mean, before I answer you directly, I also just wanna say, like, it's not all about fishing and illness. Right? It's, like, it's just about fishing. You know? Some of it is just you know, I'm not such such a super serious guy. Some of it is just fun. So, so I guess one on the freshwater side, you know, you hear so many people talk about New Zealand. I've never been to New Zealand. I'd like to get down there. On the saltwater side, you know, you you hear so much about The Seychelles, and I had a friend who was lucky enough to go there last year. And, you know, it was one of those where, like, you can't decide if you want him to send you the pictures or don't want him to send you the pictures. You know how that is? It's like but he was oh, my gosh. He caught some big permit and some GTs. And, you know, those pictures standing, you know, up to your waist in saltwater with a giant, you know, giant permit, you know, in hand. Those are those are pretty motivating. So I'd say those are my two top, you know, bucket list spots.

Tom Rowland: So those are places that you haven't been, but what about some place that you have been that

Jonathan Gluck: Oh, that's a good question.

Tom Rowland: That is like the, in your opinion, the ultimate situation?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I know exactly what it is. And, of course, I'm not gonna tell you where because I don't want everybody else going there. But, my buddy and I, the guy I mentioned before, have a spot on a particular river out in the Idaho area on a particular stretch of that river. And I have a picture from there. It's just one of those. It was late fall, and we happened to take out near a, like, kind of a rundown barn. And it was just a stupid iPhone picture. Like, as we were taken out and my buddy was trailering the boat, I just saw this little, like, kinda image of the barn with late fall, low late in the day, low angle sun kinda lighting it up just right. And it had some beautiful wildflowers around it. And and I took a picture of that barn. That's probably the best picture I've ever taken. I'm not a good photographer, just to be clear. And that spot at that moment and that time of year and we had just caught a big brown trout, like a maybe a 22 inches brown trout that we saw feeding and and, you know, kind of waited him out, watched him what he was up to. We had to retie once or twice. You know, we floated something over him pretty good that he wouldn't eat. And we finally got him to eat. So that was that was super cool. Like, that moment catching that fish in that exact setting, if I could recreate that somehow, I'd I'd do that any day.

Tom Rowland: Man, those those are I mean, that's really what fishing and and in a lot of ways, sometimes fly fishing can be the the most like, it it can it can put that image in your mind in an indelible way. Like, I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, I can think about other things, like a tarpon morning out on the flats where you go out there in the dark, and you're waiting for that first tarpon to roll. And it is absolutely like glass. And you're waiting, and there's this anticipation of, like, man, did I pick the wrong spot? Like, I don't know. I mean, probably if we had gone to the other spot, it would have been happening. We'll just give it five more minutes here, and then finally just bloop. Yeah. And you just hear this from a disk. And sometimes you don't even see it. You just hear it. And then it's like, okay. Well, there's at least one here. And then it's like and another and another and another. And then that sun start to creep, and and it's like that dusty gray light before the dawn. Like, the sun's not even up, but you can just make out a few things. That, to me, that that's what that's what you're talking about. By the way, I just came back from The Seychelles. Pretty awesome. Oh, nice. Pretty awesome. Pretty awesome.

Jonathan Gluck: I bet. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It was awesome.

Jonathan Gluck: No. Those moments are great. They could they take your breath away. And like you say, they're indelible. You just never never forget them.

35:01 · The Life Force, Remissions, and Surfing the Wave of Uncertainty

Tom Rowland: So twenty one years after you're diagnosed with eighteen months to live, you're you're you're still here. You've had plenty of fishing opportunities. You had plenty of parenting opportunities. What would you attribute? I mean, you you mentioned that there were there was a lot of great, luck, I guess, and timing in the the the amount of time when the treatment came out and when you were having, you know, a problem that that that treatment could solve. Is there anything that you can kind of put your finger on that that helped as much as anything to make it twenty one years?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I mean, I'll say maybe one thing on the practical side and one thing on the I don't know what you'd call it, maybe spiritual side or psychological side. On the practical side, it's just for me been about, you know, being smart about my health. What I mean by that is like, you know, I take better care of myself. I try and eat right. I try and exercise. I try I don't smoke. I try not to drink too much. You know, I go and see my I listen to my doctor's advice. I go to the appointments I'm supposed to go to. I get the screening tests done when I'm supposed to get them done, even though that's never any fun. Just so, like I said before, I can stay out ahead of this. So all those things are kind of common sense. You know, at the same time, you know, I like to tell people what's the point of being alive if you're not gonna live a little. So I'm not somebody who has become, you know, super strict about all that stuff. You know, I still skip going to the gym some days and I still go out and get like a bacon cheeseburger and maybe have, you know, one too many adult beverages. But, you know, I try and be reasonably smart about it. On the spiritual side, I'm not a religious person, but something that happened to me the very first day that I was diagnosed, I've really has stuck with me forever, which is that night after I was calmed down a little bit and was able to start to think a little more clearly, I remember thinking this sort of weird thought about, like, you know, there's like a death force. That was the weird term that kind of came to my mind. And that force is kind of closer to me than it's ever been before. Right? It's trying to do its thing on me. And we all face that eventually, but you don't expect to face it when you're 38 years old and otherwise healthy. But just a second later, I had this other thought of like, but there's also a life force that we're programmed to survive. You know, we have this animal instinct to survive. And at that moment, I was thinking to myself, you know, there is this death force and there's this life force, but I really need to believe in the life force that, like, somehow there's as good a chance as I can beat this as there is that I won't. And that attitude, I think, has served me pretty well. Just keeping optimistic, keeping hopeful, believing that, you know, humans are as humans, we're maybe more powerful and stronger than we think we are, that we can handle more than maybe we think we can handle. And those are some of the lessons I've definitely learned over the last, you know, twenty plus years.

Tom Rowland: What about the, the remission and and kind of relapse? Like, are you finding times where you feel like you're you're over this or or not? Like, or have the doctors told you, yeah, you're probably gonna, you know, have a relapse and you're gonna and it's or did they kind of explain that that's probably the the most likely progression here, or was there an opportunity maybe to to to be clear?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. With what I what I have is is incurable. So there is no known cure. It's not to say that, you know, that one person in every hundred thousand somehow gets through it without, you know, a recurrence once they've been treated, but that's extraordinarily rare. So I've known that, you know, chances are ninety nine point nine, that this is just gonna keep coming back. I've known that from the start, and that, in fact, is what's happened. You know, I've been very lucky at some of my remissions have been unusually long. I had one remission as long as seven years. That was kind of incredible. Others have been very short. You know, I get treated. I'm in remission, and then maybe four months later when I'm tested again, it's back. And that's, again, coming back to the idea of uncertainty that's in the title, that's one of the things I've just learned have had to learn to surf that wave, you know, of of never knowing really when it's gonna come back and just that's where some of that thought of a life force or hopefulness comes in. It's like every time I start to go down the dark road of, like, oh, gosh. You know, maybe I had a little pain in my hip today. Is that is it coming back? Or I've gotta get tested again next week. You know, it's time for my checkup. Is it gonna be back then? Instead of kind of panicking and going down that whole spiral of worry, I've gotten pretty decent at, like, you know what? Just whatever happens is gonna happen, and I'm gonna deal with it. And my I'm lucky to have really great doctors. I'm really lucky to have good health insurance. You know, I'd be broke fifty times over if it weren't for that. Lots of people are, you know. I'm incredibly lucky to have family and friends and good support systems. So every time I start to turn right down the road of, you know, darkness and despair, I try and steer myself back to the left down the road of, like, you know, whatever happens, I can handle it. And believe me, there are times I'm better at that than others. But, you know, when I'm able to do that, it makes it a little bit easier to cope with the fact that, like I say, this I have known from the start that this is almost certainly never gonna go away.

40:59 · Patagonia at the Darkest Moment: The Trip He Almost Canceled

Tom Rowland: And have you, had a had kind of a fortuitous opportunity to go fishing at one of these dark times?

Jonathan Gluck: Like, you know, on

Tom Rowland: the land and all of a sudden, you know, oh, here it is again.

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I would say the time that comes to mind there is, I had just been rediagnosed. I had just lost my job. I got laid off from a job with a bunch of other people at a magazine company that was going through a big transition. And I was scheduled already to go down to Chile and fish down there in Chile and Patagonia. And I, at first, you know, thought, I'm not gonna go on that trip. Like, my life sucks right now. Right? You know? Like, let's that's the last thing I need to do is, like, go fly whatever 5,000 miles away and be away from home and have all this uncertainty hanging over my head and all that. And then, you know, a few minutes later, I was like, well, that's backward thinking. It's this is probably the first thing I should do is, like, take advantage of this while I can. And it was gonna take a few weeks be before I could get in to see my doctor again about and figure out do all the tests and figure out what the next treatment was gonna be. So I decided to go ahead with the trip, and I went down there and I had probably the best if you know, one of the two or three best trips, if not the best I've ever had. Just spectacular fishing. I mean, day in and day out, we fish five, six different rivers and these tiny little spring creeks. And, you know, it was the kind of thing where we'd come on a pod of maybe 20 big fish all feeding at once. And it was kind of the opposite of the experience I was telling you, Bayou, that I had with the salmon fly hatch in Idaho a couple of weeks ago. This was like, you know, I could have blindfolded myself and, you know, I'd be catching fish. I was like, they were on it. You know, they were ready to eat. And you fish these big beetles down there, I guess, Cantaria beetles, if I'm pronouncing it correctly. And they're around every other year. And it happened to be a beetle year. And so, I mean, these fish were just pounding these big beetles. And it was it was really fun. Met some terrific people down there. This lodge owner, the owner of the lodge I stayed at and his wife and kids were amazing. And a couple of the other guests I had a really great time with and wound up writing about that trip for the New York Times and also tell the story of that trip in the book. And one of the things I remember after, you know, catching a big rainbow on the last day was just standing there and thinking, like, you know, thank God I did take this trip because, you know, this is exactly what I needed. Talk about what the doctor ordered. Maybe not literally, but definitely figuratively. And then strange enough, because this is how my mixed up life goes these days is, you know, whatever, a week later, I was back in my doctor's office again hearing bad news. And, you know, here's all the nasty treatment you're going to have to go through and all the rest. And that was a moment where I really thought to myself, like, thank God I went on that trip because, you know, I needed that to kind of refuel me, gear up for what was, you know, about to happen.

44:10 · Diet, Adapted Exercise, and Advice for the Newly Diagnosed

Tom Rowland: Wow. Wow. So when you're, when you're going through these last twenty one years, you said that you've been very careful about your your diet. How how has diet and exercise played into the success that you've had? Do you think that you have come upon a diet that is working for you, or have the doctors been helping you? Or what what how have you decided on what the right diet is?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I'm I'm not super I don't know what you'd call it technical about it. You know? I I think I just try and follow the things that I guess we all know about or that are in the popular, you know, press, like Mhmm. And in the culture at large. So, you know, I try not to eat too much sugar, too much fat, or I try to eat more protein than carbs or, you know, I try not to drink too much, you know. But I haven't become vegan or, you know, I don't drink protein shakes or, you know, I don't do anything really all that out of the out of the norm. I just I try to just, you know, live within the basic guidelines of healthy eating, you know? Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: How about exercise?

Jonathan Gluck: Exercise has been really interesting for me because I have so many of these orthopedic issues now because of my illness that that I have had to give up, change my habits pretty dramatically. So I used to play basketball a lot, you know, pick up game with some friends on a Sunday night for years. I can't do that anymore. I used to ski. I can't do that anymore. It's yet another reason why fishing has been so important to me because it's a way for me to be outdoors and exercising in a way that's still safe and healthy for me. And I've learned over the years to, like, do a whole bunch of different kinds of gym workouts that are more based on more of, like, almost like a Pilates or yoga or isometrics kind of mentality than a, like, heavy lifting. You know, it's not the safest thing for me to be throwing a lot of big weights around. I can't run too much pounding on my joints. So I ride the bike at the gym. And so it's all just been about adapting, you know, to what my body needs are. And I'd say that's you know, probably good advice for anyone, you know, follow listen to your body, follow what works for you, stay away from the things that don't. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Speaking of advice, you know, you're you're you're a perfect person to ask, what your advice would be for somebody that was recently diagnosed with with cancer. Like, you you were diagnosed with one that they they said is incurable right away. Many people are diagnosed with very treatable cancers, but, you know, along the whole spectrum of of cancer, when someone hears that word, what what's your advice for for anyone kind of going through that?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So the first thing I'd say, I guess, is, even before you get a diagnosis like that, I'm a huge believer in prevention. You know, the number one thing you can do to to avoid getting a really bad cancer diagnosis is do the screenings that, you know, the that are recommended. So, you know, if you're a woman, get your breast cancer screenings. If you're a guy, get your prostate cancer and your testicular cancer screenings as your doctor suggests. You know, just be aware of these things. And and, you know, when you reach whatever the guidelines are now, and I don't know them off the top of my head, but, you know, pay attention to them for a colonoscopy when you're 40 or 50 or if you're in a high risk group, maybe earlier. Early detection remains the best single best way by far to prevent yourself from getting into deep water with cancer diagnosis. As far as what I would say to people who are diagnosed, you know, every diagnosis is different. So there are people I just want to say first and foremost to, you know, get a very poor prognosis. You know, I don't know what to say in a case like that exactly. You know, if you're lucky enough to have family and friends to rely on, you know, be close to them and share with them and be open about what's going on and and be willing to depend on them a little bit. That was a really important lesson I had to learn. You know, I guess you could say in some ways I was a typical guy, you know, when I was diagnosed, if you wanna go into that stereotype, like, I just wanted to do everything myself. I never liked to rely on anyone else. I like to, you know, solve my own problems, be my own person, figure my own way out of things. And I've learned over the years that that's sort of stupid, you know, that, you know, you don't do yourself any favors by not allowing other people into your life, especially when you're dealing with something pretty challenging. And so I'd say, you know, lean on others. You know, for other folks, you know, who do have more hope and maybe a better prognosis, I'd say, you know, don't necessarily expect the worst. You know, maybe allow yourself to expect the best. You know, when I was first diagnosed, I never thought I'd make it this long, and here I am. You know? I would also say you're probably stronger than you think you are. You know? I didn't think I could handle even the first treatment I went through, which was nothing compared to things I've been through since. And it turns out I can. So, you know, I think I guess what that all boils down to is, you know, things might turn out better than you think depending on the case, and you can probably handle more than you think. And, you know, those are maybe two of the things I'd share.

49:44 · Three Years of Writing: “More Fishing,” Said the Editor

Tom Rowland: Very good. So as you go and and start to write this book, how long how long has it been in process of writing?

Jonathan Gluck: From the moment I decided to really commit to it until the day it was published was about three years.

Tom Rowland: Three years. And so you're a professional writer. You have the the process down. Have you written any other books?

Jonathan Gluck: No. This is my first book. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: So this is your first book. And how is writing the book different than than, like, the way that you make a living writing articles?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. Another great question. I mean, one my wife is also a magazine editor. And when I started, with the book project, we were talking about it. It it was gonna be interesting to see what the differences were between, you know, writing for a, you know, just a periodical of whatever sort newspaper magazine versus writing a book. And I'd say maybe the biggest difference is a book has to have multiple dimensions. You know, a story may be thousand words, 5,000 words, you know, that you can read in five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes. It can not only can just have maybe one angle to it, but it can't really have more because you don't get to go deep enough on more than one idea at that length. A book is just the opposite. Like, not only can it have more dimensions, but it should because you're gonna get bored if all you're reading about is the same thing for 300, 400 pages. So that's one of the ways fishing came into this book is I realized one of the things I could do is tell a bunch of fishing stories along the way, and that would give it one added dimension. Another thing I realized I could do was do some of this research, like the, research I talked about on coping with uncertainty that's relevant to anybody, whether you're sick or not, you know, because we all have problems and we all face uncertainty and anxiety, whether it's got to do with a medical issue or your job or your wife or your husband or your your kids or whatever is happening in your life. So I realized that could be an interesting thing to go into, and I wrote quite a bit about that in the book. And then I realized that, you know, the science of my, treatments was really interesting because it has been all this breakthrough, cutting edge, you know, almost futuristic, medicine, that I've had. So I wrote a lot about that also as a kind of third dimension, going back to all the, you know, the history of cancer and all the different treatments that have been developed over the years and getting from that very broad point into the really specifics into the specifics of the treatments for my illness and how they were all developed. And the stories the backstory to some of that to some of those treatments is really fascinating in its own right. So multiple layers. And then the other thing I'd say about a book is you're writing a book when you're writing a book, you need to think and this is something my editor, my book editor kind of shared with me that I thought was a great note. You wanna imagine, like, somebody reading it twenty five years from now and having it still be relevant. So you wanna write it in a way that's got, I don't know, depth and longevity to it, and isn't just trying to talk about something that people are gonna be interested in for the next day or month. So that was in the second big difference.

Tom Rowland: It's interesting because one of the questions I had wanted to ask is that if you and your wife are both writers and editors, how did you know that you needed a book editor? Yeah. Did you did you think did you ever think that you could just do that yourself, or, like, are you wise enough in in in a professional enough to know that that's a specialty that you that you need in a book?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I I think mostly the latter, although it definitely gave me an an edge, I think, that I was a professional writer to begin with. And even though there are differences between writing for magazines and newspapers versus writing a book, there are also a lot of similarities. So I like to think, I hope anyway, I've never asked him directly, but, that my editor thinks I was relatively easy to work with because of that. I think I turned in a pretty good first draft, and I was pretty open to listening to his notes. My friends were joking with me. You know, it's like, if I wasn't if I wasn't willing to listen to my editor's notes, I'd be kind of the biggest jerk in the world because I spent my whole life telling other people what to do with their stories. So once the tables were turned, you know, it just I think it would have been pretty bad karma for me to, you know, be difficult. So I tried to be as easy as I could be. And I was lucky I worked with a great editor who he didn't really kinda micromanage what I was doing, and, hopefully, I didn't need too much of that. But, he gave me a couple of really great broad strokes notes about some of these things I was just talking about, about how to make something more of a book than a magazine story that were that were really valuable. And I I don't think my wife or I or any other magazine editors necessarily would have had that perspective. He was really skilled in that respect and super helpful.

Tom Rowland: So when he reads the first draft, does he come back to you and say, more fishing or less fishing?

Jonathan Gluck: More fishing. Yeah. He was committed to fishing for the start. I'm not joking either. You know, he he really understood from the start that one of the things that made this distinctive and gave it, like I say, another dimension and also just gave it a way to break up some of the seriousness and heaviness of a book that is about some things that are serious and heavy, but some things that are just fun. And so I think from the start, he was really committed to, you know, if anything, I was a little gun shy about how much fishing I should include, but he always, yeah, steered me toward more rather than less.

55:30 · Mindset Is Everything: Mr. Reasonable and Precrastination

Tom Rowland: Well, I haven't read the book, but I wanna read the book because I'm fascinated with stories that involve mindset. And and you you had mentioned that, you know, that was a part of it, and and you also kinda got lucky with some timing of some of the treatments and and other things. But I I find it very interesting that you can be given, you know, an eighteen month death sentence, basically, and you can turn that around. And here you are twenty one years later with incredible stories to tell, an incredible family. You've had an incredible life. You're gonna continue to have an incredible life, and there has to be a mindset element to that. I my favorite t shirt says mindset is everything. I wear it all the time. And that can be applied in base from my experience in every area of my life. Like, the way that you think about something really does have, a big impact. Maybe not entire maybe not the entire impact, but it has a very big large impact on the outcome of whatever that is. And I'm fascinated with those stories, and I read those stories in every area. And I'm really interested in reading your book. I I wanna read it. But, you know, as we talk about that and and you kinda reflect on that, you're you're nodding your head yes. Like, what what comes to mind when you just kinda think about the mindset that you've had in the last twenty one years? Could be a negative mindset, positive mindset. What are the what are the lessons that take home that we can we can, you know, associate mindset with your with your success?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. You know, there's that thing people say. You know, you can't control what happens to you, but you can control how you react to it. And I've really tried to make that, you know, my mantra. And again, I don't want to pretend that it's easy or that I don't have, you know, rough days where I have a lousy mindset. Of course, I do. I'm human. We all are. But all in all, I've tried to, you know, take I I hesitate to give cancer credit for anything good, but one of the things it does do is it does make you appreciate your life, you know, and and call attention to the fact that mindset is everything, like you're saying. And so, you know, little things don't bother me as much anymore. You know, it's like if I have problems at work, you know, one of my colleagues at a previous job used to tease me and call me Mr. Reasonable because, you know, nothing really threw me because it's like once you've been through something like I've been through, missing a deadline or supporter calling you to say that they can't get the story or whatever. I'm not saying those are good things. I don't want them to happen, but they don't put me into a spin, you know, with the way they might put somebody else. And, you know, sometimes I like to joke, like I say, you know, traffic doesn't bother me anymore. But, hey, I live in New York City. Traffic still bothers me. Traffic's a terrible thing here. So but for the most part, you know, I have things in better perspective, you know, and I do think that helps not getting yourself angry or agitated about every last little thing and having, you know, the sense that, you know, just things often work out. Just give it a little time and try and have a good attitude about it. The other thing I'd say is I really, in terms of mindset, is I've become almost addicted to doing things that I want to do as quickly as I can possibly do them. So sometimes that's small things like, you know, if I feel like calling a friend or texting or thinking about a friend, I'll I'll call them or I'll text them or I'll make a plan with them to have drinks or dinner or something. I don't wait, you know, because one of the things you learn when you go through something like this is, you know, as they say, none of us is promised tomorrow. So, and that can go all the way up to the big things like the fishing trips. You know, it's like if I get it in mind that I really wanna go somewhere, I'm gonna do my darndest to get an assignment to go there so I can help afford it and, you know, work out my vacation schedule so I can go and work out my schedule with my family so I can go. I actually learned a term about that along the way, called precrastination. It's the opposite of procrastination. Obviously, when you procrastinate, you put something off. Procrastination is like the second you think of something, you almost get, like, obsessed with doing it. And I've tried to use that as part of my mindset just to to live as full a life as you can while you're here. You know, we all know somewhere in the back of our mind that, you know, this thing doesn't go on that we call life doesn't go on forever. But when you have a diagnosis like this or something similar, it makes you very aware of that. And Mhmm. Like I said, I don't wanna give cancer credit for anything good, but, that is one of the silver linings that's come out of this.

60:08 · Is Cancer a Gift? Letters from Strangers

Tom Rowland: Well, not giving cancer credit for anything good, I I I can understand that and and respect that, and I don't want you to take this question in the wrong way. With with all respect, is there any way that you would consider this a gift in your life?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. I mean, I I would is the simple answer for the reasons I was just talking about. You know, if I could go back and give away that gift and just live the other way, I I I would. I'm not gonna lie. You know, it's it's nobody's idea of fun. And if you could undo it, I think just about anybody would. That said, I can't undo it. And so here I am. And even that's part of the mindset, you know, of, you know, trying to make something good come of all this. And so I do try and look for the silver linings, you know, of the sort I just talked about, you know, having better perspective on things, the trying to live life to its fullest. Also, even just, you know, giving back and things like the book. I'm donating a portion of the proceeds from the book to cancer research. You know, that feels really good. That's something good that's come of this. You know, writing the book in the first place and sharing my story, I know I've been very lucky and gratified to see that I've gotten tons of emails and letters and messages on my social media channels about people, total strangers from all around the world, you know, saying that they appreciate me sharing my story because it helps them feel, you know, more comfortable with where they're at with something like this. And it doesn't it's not all from people who have exactly what I have. Sometimes it's from people who aren't even sick, but they've just been through something difficult and appreciate me sharing, you know, what it's like to go through something like this. That's extremely rewarding, you know? So in that sense, it's been a gift. I've done plenty of other stories before and for the magazines and newspapers I've worked for that people enjoy and maybe learn something from, and are even moved by, but nothing as powerful as this so far. And, you know, just seeing those responses and knowing that I've been able to help even one person through difficult times, let alone many, many people, I'd, you know, I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a gift. It definitely is.

Tom Rowland: Right. And your social media channels, what what are they? Where are you most active?

Jonathan Gluck: Yeah. So LinkedIn and Facebook, probably the most active, and a little bit on Instagram. Those are places I'd point people to. There are lots of stories about, you know, different publicity I've been lucky enough to have from the book. I was in People magazine, my family and I. There have been excerpts from the book in New York magazine and Men's Health magazine. I've got a I'm not sure when this episode is gonna air, but I've got a story coming out this Sunday in The New York Times, a very interesting story about, an essay about the way that cancer patients can bond with one another and the special sort of, you know, love you have for one another. That's something I've learned and was just talking about a little bit since the book has come out, but it's also something I had experienced prior to that. People can read that story, in starting this coming Sunday. Yeah. That's been some of the places I've been lucky enough to get, some nice attention for the book.

63:32 · Why He’s Never Fished with Other Patients — A Live Realization

Tom Rowland: Did you have any any opportunity to bond with other patients over fishing?

Jonathan Gluck: You know, it's a great question. There are a couple of groups. I think the biggest one is called Real Recovery as in r e e l. Mhmm. And there are others. The names are escaping me, but they're easy to Google. Devoted to that very idea. So they are they run fly fishing, outings for cancer patients. And I can't people have asked me, you know, why haven't you done that? Seems like a no brainer. I don't have a good explanation for it. I don't know if it's just like a I feel like it would be a little too much for me to be in such a heavy, intense environment, you know, for multiple days. I I I don't know if it's just been I haven't made it a priority, you know? I'm not sure what the answer is, but, I haven't exactly done that even though you would think I would have or should have, but, you know, maybe this will remind me to do it.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You know? You you you've gotten something out of fishing, with your friend that you fished with since your first trip, and maybe maybe it's just a personal thing. Like, that's you you've gotten that out of out of fly fishing specifically. I I don't know. I could see how you could be like, you know, that's that's served me well. I'm good like that.

Jonathan Gluck: You know, you just made me think of something I've never thought of before, which is I think you're I think you're you're you pointed me right to this, I don't know, realization. Just as I was saying at the beginning of our talk, you know, fishing has always been this place for me to escape from my illness. Right? I think it's like the last place in my life where I can do that without having to be talking about it, thinking about it. And so I think I probably haven't done that kind of thing so that I can preserve that, you know, the sanctity of that or, you know, the purity of that. So, yeah, thanks. You I can

Tom Rowland: well, I can see that.

Jonathan Gluck: You can charge me for a therapy station.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, no charge. Awesome. I could see that because, you know, I mean, it might be something, you know, in in another avenue of life. Like, you have a passion, and there's a business opportunity that could you you could, like, I don't know, maybe it's fishing and and and somebody says, hey. You wanna be a fishing guide? And somebody says, well, no. Because I like what I like about this. I don't wanna confuse it with trying to make money and ruin what I've what I have done. You know? And it could be I don't know. Maybe you like working out and you wanna somebody says, hey. You wanna kinda be a co owner in a gym? And somebody might say, yeah. That'd be great. You know? And then it take it sucks all the fun out of it for them.

Jonathan Gluck: That's right.

Tom Rowland: And then they don't like it anymore. It could be anything like that. But when I mean, that's just kinda what I was thinking about is, like, you've had a really, really positive experience with with fly fishing and and coping with with what you've gone through, and, you know, maybe maybe that's enough.

Jonathan Gluck: I think that's right.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. So when you, when the book's out, and who's the publisher?

Jonathan Gluck: Penguin Random House.

Tom Rowland: Oh, okay. Big time publisher. That's, did you ever think about possibly self publishing, or or was that like, you you know a lot more about the the that world than than most people that write books, I think. So did you ever consider, like, self publishing or straight publisher right away?

Jonathan Gluck: For me, the first choice was gonna be a straight publisher and, you know, ideally, the biggest publisher I could convince to publish the book. And what you do typically is you find an agent first and convince the agent that, you know, your book is worthwhile. And then you write a proposal, and the agent takes that proposal out to publishers. And it's their job to know the appropriate publishers and even the appropriate editors within the publishing houses who might be interested in a book like this. And I was lucky enough to land a, you know, a deal with, you know, a big time publisher. And that said, I am a big believer in self publishing, and I worked at a place, at one point in my career that helped people self publish, and provided a platform for them to publish on the Internet. So, I'm all for that idea. In my case, I thought the advantages of working with a big publisher, if I could, kind of outweighed it, and so that's the direction I decided to go.

68:12 · Throwing the Box Open and a Sticky Note in the Hospital

Tom Rowland: So when you're writing the book, you're going back through, you know, pleasant stories of fishing, unpleasant stories of treatment. Was that a an emotional, three years of writing the book?

Jonathan Gluck: A lot of people have asked me that, and even some people close to me, friends and family, kind of asked me way back at the beginning when I was even thinking about doing this, like, is that gonna be okay? You're gonna, you know, struggle with that? Is it gonna be rough? And there were times when it was, you know, remembering certain things and certain really powerful moments, you know, definitely got me choked up. But more than anything, I'd say it was more like cathartic, you know, that as I put together my whole story and remembered some of these things, including, as you say, some of it's fun to remember, you know, some of these fishing trips and even just moments where that were funny. I'm, you know, I I know sometimes people think there's nothing funny about cancer, but I'm here to tell you there sometimes is, you know. And so I wrote about some of those episodes, just crazy stuff that happened along the way. And so those moments were a pleasure, you know. But even the tough stuff, like I say, with with very few exceptions, you know, maybe upset me for a little bit, but I think there was something about writing the book that actually helped me process all of it a little bit more and become more comfortable with it. For a long time, especially at the start, I tried to kind of compartmentalize my illness and keep it in a box and, you know, separate from the rest of my life. And then as more and more time went on and I had more treatments and more people in my life knew about my illness and it would sometimes intrude in my work a little bit or other parts of my life, I came to realize, like, I started to, like, open up that box little by little. And then with the book, as I started writing it, I was like, you know what? It's time to just throw the box wide open. You know, this is such a big part of my life. There's no pretending it's not. Doesn't mean I have to let it control my life or become too big a part of my life, but it is a huge part of my life. And I think even just acknowledging that was a relief that I hadn't expected, you know, that that instead of trying to be so careful about managing it and all of that, I could just put it out there and be done with it. And that has been kind of like a burden off my shoulders.

Tom Rowland: Has it been a burden off your shoulders also to to release the book? Like, I would imagine, like, when it comes time to publish this thing, you're like, boy, those are deepest, darkest secrets in there. Like, did did you did that feel like a relief? Or

Jonathan Gluck: or It does. It does. And you put your finger right on it. It's like nobody really likes to keep a secret. You know? It has a weight to it. It is a burden to keep a secret. And and to have all of this out there, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and believe me, there's plenty of all three, is a relief, just like you say. You know, it's it's I don't feel like I'm hiding anything anymore or trying to keep something inside that, you know, might slip out. You know? It's all out there now, and and, you know, it has been, like a weight off my shoulders.

Tom Rowland: Very cool. So you can get the book anywhere, anywhere books are sold probably with that

Jonathan Gluck: Anywhere books are sold. You know, easiest way is probably online, either on Amazon, if you like to shop on Amazon. If you don't like to shop on Amazon, there's bookshop.org is, an independent bookseller. A lot of people like to a site for independent booksellers people like, and really anywhere else that you buy books, you know, either in your local bookstore or Barnes and Noble, you know, should be available any place. Not every single brick and mortar store might have it in stock, but they'll certainly be happy to order it for you if you like to shop through that venue. Should be able to get it one way or another.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, we'll put it in the book club. We have a book club on the website, tomrolandpodcast.com. We can put that on there through Amazon, and, that's an an additional place that you can you can get the book if you want to. I'm definitely gonna read it. I I'm very interested in in it. I haven't read it yet, but I'm I'm going to. So I really appreciate you coming on. I learned a ton. If we were to, to close this, you're a writer. This is gonna be a big ask, but you're you're you're up to the task, I think. If you were to summarize all this in one sentence, how would you do it?

Jonathan Gluck: So I was in the hospital two summers ago, getting the biggest, most serious, and most difficult treatment I've had to date. I had to be in the hospital once for five days and then a second time for, two and a half weeks. So it was pretty big deal. And, I had to be isolated on a special ward because the treatment I had was very damaging to my immune system. But I snuck off of the ward one day because the coffee was so horrible. I needed to go down to the lobby and get a good coffee. The hospital coffee was so bad. And when I came, I got my coffee, had my mask on, all of that, went back to the elevator to sneak back upstairs. And as I went to go press the elevator button, I noticed just randomly, it was almost like I don't know what. It was almost sends a shiver down my spine just to tell the story. There was a little yellow sticky note right next to the elevator up button, and I don't know who put it there. Obviously, you can once I tell you what it said, you'll you'll understand, you know, the type of person it probably was. And this is in a big hospital in New York City with plenty of people who are sick and from God knows what. You know? And the little note just said, every day above Earth is a good day. And, you know, all I can say to that is amen. So that would that would be my one sentence.

Tom Rowland: Very cool. I love it. We can't we can't close it out any better than that. John, I appreciate you coming on and telling your story. I'm looking forward to reading about it. I encourage other people to read about it. Check out your social media. They just look up your name on social media, or is

Jonathan Gluck: there Yeah. It should be easy enough to find if you type Jonathan Gluck. Facebook, Jonathan Gluck. Instagram, Jonathan Gluck. LinkedIn. Or if you put in my name and the name of the book and those platforms, you know, it should should crop up pretty quick.

Tom Rowland: Okay. So the book's called An Exercise in Uncertainty. John Gluck, and, that's it. So thanks for coming on today. I hope you'll have a a great when's your next fishing trip?

Jonathan Gluck: In the works at this moment. Don't have something a 100% on the books. I almost always go back out to Idaho in the fall. I'm sure I'll do that. But I've I've you know, just talking to you, today has reminded me of those New Zealand and Seychelles trips, so stay tuned.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Right on. Well, when you when you plan the Seychelles trip, I'll be more than happy to tell you all about mine and the different things that we took. I went to Providence Atoll, and that is way out there. There's some other ones that are different. Sounds like your buddy went to, one of the other ones. We didn't see a permit the whole time. It was almost entirely GT and Triggerfish, Milkfish, and then they do this thing called bombing bashing where you fish these coral heads and you catch all these wild fish. It's really cool. All in all, really fantastic trip, amazing place. So I encourage you to go there.

Jonathan Gluck: I'm gonna take you up on that offer to learn more. So, appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Text me anytime. Alright. That's it for today. We'll be back with another, great guest, hopefully as good as Jonathan next week. And, I'll see you then. If you like this, please share it with one of your fishing buddies. Alright. See you.