Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 854: Danny Mako

In this episode: holding your breath at 60 to 70 feet on a single breath, the personalities of bull sharks, tiger sharks, and reef sharks, a shallow water blackout that was a near death experience, and diving a Mag Bay bait ball where whales and marlin attacked at once.

00:00 · Cold Open

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Danny Mako: I think it's the truest definition of raw nature. They had the, life flash before your eyes a little bit.

Tom Rowland: And he just got back from a trip to Mag Bay where he was diving with whales and marlin and Mahi, and he's gonna talk about all of that as well as so many other things, diving with sharks, bull sharks, tiger sharks, all the difference in all the different sharks on the planet and his experiences with all of that. This is a fantastic conversation with a fantastic guy. Stick around. Here we go.

Danny Mako: Hi. This is Danny Lomas or as some people might know me, Danny Mako, and this is the Tom Roland podcast.

02:30 · Becoming a Shark Guy: From Jupiter Bulls to a PADI Cert at 15

Tom Rowland: Danny, what's up?

Danny Mako: What's up, man? How are you doing?

Tom Rowland: I'm doing great. Where are you today?

Danny Mako: I am in Orlando, Florida right now. I'm actually visiting my family, and I've been down here helping one of my friends with the shark diving in Jupiter, Florida.

Tom Rowland: Really?

Danny Mako: Wow.

Tom Rowland: There's a lot of sharks in Jupiter, Florida.

Danny Mako: Yeah. Absolutely. It's, as you might know, big fishing capitol. There's a lot of guys out there with some really nice boats, really into their fishing. And with that comes a lot of sharks, so that's where I kinda take advantage of the situation, go and hang out with some of the bull sharks down there.

Tom Rowland: That's what you like to do?

Danny Mako: Definitely. No. Yeah. That's my whole, prerogative. I'm a shark guy. I love to fish, and, I love to spearfish, but my whole kind of career has been set around shark diving and photographing and videoing sharks. So

Tom Rowland: And and how did, I mean, probably you don't go shark diving on your first dive, but how do you how do you kinda get into shark diving to where you become more and more comfortable with it and, obviously, to, you know, to the point of obsession almost, for you?

Danny Mako: Well, I started as a, PADI scuba diver. So when I was 15 years old, I just did the usual go out, get your dive certifications, and, the passion kind of started there. I was diving, as much as possible. So I grew up in England. Anytime I had the chance to go away and and go to a dive destination, I would definitely try and scuba dive there. And then, yeah, just I think around 20 years old when I was at university, I actually met one of my professors who specialized in, shark research, and the kind of obsession grew from that. We went and did some dives, saw some sharks down here in Florida. And then, another friend of mine actually ended up being in Hawaii and telling me about all the shark diving that goes on there and and kind of the the ecotourism setup that they've got. Yeah. And and so it just kind of happened by chance. I, I took a took a flight over there, spent a few months in Hawaii, and then I was like, yep. This is this is what I wanna do.

04:44 · Living on Oahu and the North Shore's Winter Teeth

Tom Rowland: In what part of Hawaii Hawaii do you live?

Danny Mako: I'm on Oahu, so that's, kind of the main, I would say, populated island in the the chain.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Danny Mako: So, yeah, I live, on the South Shore Of Oahu, but I actually work on the North Shore. So I know you guys are

Tom Rowland: It's nice, man. I love it up there. It's really nice. I've been to Hawaii three times, and I went with my my boys, once on on the way to Christmas Island, and then I took my daughter there for a senior trip, and we spent a lot of time on the North Shore. That's I I like the feel of the North Shore. It's kind of it's kinda cool. I know you know this place where they they have, like, smoothies, and it's a good place to park, and you can surf right across the street. And they have, like, a smoothie bar, and then they have, like, a a little surf shack there.

Danny Mako: I think it's the, the Sunrise Shack.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You can get a good you can get a good, breakfast sandwich there. My daughter and I stopped there every day. It was it was great. I loved it.

Danny Mako: No. It's it's awesome. Yeah. And it's it's such a small community too. So I actually know the brothers who own that establishment. Mhmm. And they're, like, professional surfers, so they're just living the dream. They got So great business. And

Tom Rowland: So the only time I've been there both times was summer. And I understand that the that the surf is huge there, and that's what the North Shore is all about, right, the in the wintertime. Is that right?

Danny Mako: Yeah. The wintertime is, I would say, when the North Shore comes alive.

Tom Rowland: So when what is what are the waves? I mean, we surfed out there, and they were tourist waves, like, little tiny little tiny waves for me and my daughter and my kids, which was perfect in the summer. But what does that place look like in the winter?

Danny Mako: I would say it's kinda like that werewolf transformation. It grows teeth and fangs, and it gets extremely, extremely gnarly. The the average day, I guess, on a good surf day is gonna be, you know, 10 to 12 feet barreling waves, and that's just talking about an average, you know, run of the mill kind of swell. When you get into that XL, double XL, you're talking about 20 to 30 foot faces on waves completely, you know, if you're coming out of the harbor, you're getting the channel completely covered, so you have to time it so you're not hitting the waves as you're going out. It's it's a completely different place. I would imagine. Insane. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I mean, that's that's what kinda they were telling us. They're like, you know, it's good good for you guys out here today, but you don't wanna come here in the winter. Like but No. But I would just like to, like, just feel those waves, feel the power of those waves breaking. And, I mean, some of those places where we were on the beach, you would just be sitting on the beach and the the the surf would break very close to the to the beach. You could just feel it. You feel it throughout your whole body. Like, this Yeah. Incredible power in Hawaii. Like, you you get there, you got the volcanoes, you got the surf, you got the ocean, you've got the rivers and the waterfalls. Like, it's just a magical place that you one of the places where kinda like Yellowstone National Park, I don't know if you ever been there or not, but you get there and there's all this geothermal kind of thing and it's just a it you're on a giant volcano. You won't Mhmm. You don't see it like a volcano in in, Hawaii, but you're on top of this giant supervolcano, one of the biggest ones in the world. Yeah. And you can feel the power there. It's indescribable, like but you can feel it. Like, it's just this feeling that you have of, like, wow. This place is incredible. I feel the same way in Hawaii. Like, when I every both all the times that I've been there, it's like, man, this powerful place.

Danny Mako: You know what

Tom Rowland: I mean?

Danny Mako: Yeah. No. Exactly. It's, it's I think it's the truest definition of raw nature. So you've got the rawest of everything like you were saying, the ocean, the earth, the, the lava. Mhmm. You know? I was I was lucky enough this year, actually, when the eruption happened on the big islands, I flew straight across. I went I photographed the lava. I got as close as possible, and and just hearing, the sound of the rock shattering like glass Yeah. As it's being melted is like

Tom Rowland: And are you in the water or above the water for this?

Danny Mako: I was on land. So I was watching, actually, the the lava stream come down from the volcano. And the point at which I intercepted it was, where it was cool enough that it wasn't completely molten, but it was still hot enough to shift and break the rock. And I have some amazing pictures and videos, but it was top 10 greatest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

Tom Rowland: That is that's incredible. I mean, that kind of power isn't I I don't think that there's any much or very many things man made that would, you know, give you the same kind of feeling of that kind of power. I wanna talk about sharks. Like, when you're diving with sharks, there's, you know, tons of different kinds of sharks. I'm sure you've you you you're familiar with all the different species. What what is your favorite one to dive with?

09:45 · Why Tiger Sharks Are His Favorite Animal in the Water

Danny Mako: I would have to say just for me being in Hawaii and spending so much time with them, the tiger sharks are hands down, like, some of the best sharks to swim with. Totally misunderstood animal, very, very mellow, great to be around, with people that are a little bit inexperienced. There's a real stigma around them, you know, just because of in Hawaii, they're kind of seen as the tropical great white. They're seen as the ones responsible for a lot of attacks or bites or fatalities over the years, which is true. But when you boil it down to, like, how frequent that's happening, it's probably around, you know, once every few years, which is not too high. But in the water, they're they're really amazing animals just to swim with. We have a few encounters every year between the months of around, August to December. And, yeah, every time I get in the water with them, people are just blown away. They're like, this is the most beautiful animal I've ever seen. This is amazing. And those are the ones that really change people's perceptions because they're so large. We get them from 10 to 14 feet.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Danny Mako: And around that 1,500 pound mark is about where where we're maxing out. And, yeah, people are just blown away. It's like a Mini Cooper coming towards you.

Tom Rowland: And will you have, like, a single giant one like that, or will there be multiples there on a on a good day? Or what does that look like?

Danny Mako: On a usual day, it'll just be a single shark. Those kind of sharks, they tend to send out a little bit of intimidation to the rest of the sharks. And so the usual sign that we've got one in the area is that everything just drops, just kind of leaves the area. But we are starting to see multiple sharks coming in, just because, you know, as whales populations are increasing again that we've seen over the years, the tiger sharks, which predate on them, or predate on the dead, they, will increase as well. There's more food out there. There's more sustainability for them to actually reproduce and not be so competitive with each other. So we are generally seeing more sharks each year, which is good. But, yeah, it's pretty rare to get that multiple shark kinda swimming around.

12:07 · The Controversy Around Sharks, Fishing, and Feeding

Tom Rowland: Yeah. There's a a a lot of controversy around, even just mentioning that there might be more sharks, and and as a fisherman. Mhmm. And certainly, people fishing in that Jupiter area where you are are seeing a a big rise in sharks. But all throughout the entire state of Florida, there has been a a rise in the number of sharks. But Mhmm. If you talk to some, people that are shark advocates, they won't even consider that that's a possibility that Florida could be, you know, on the rise, and maybe other places are on the on the fall. And we talk about this quite a bit on this podcast because I think it's interesting. And to hear you say that you're having more sharks in Hawaii, I think, is interest. What do you think about the the shot shark population, certainly in Florida and Hawaii and then maybe on a whole?

Danny Mako: So my belief system is in in Hawaii, we have a very, special situation where sharks and fishing kinda go hand in hand. There's a strong community behind or, sorry, strong cultural history behind the sharks, actually aiding the fishermen most of the time. And so we actually fully protect sharks in Hawaii right now. So to kill a shark in Hawaii, to land a shark comes with a fine just because that meat is not sold anywhere. It is purely for the trade of fins to, to elsewhere. And so, because of that protection law, we are seeing those increases, which should be a good thing. We've had a really good fish in the air this year, and, hopefully, that means that that'll just continue to increase more sharks, healthier reef systems, and then healthier fish. In Florida, I'm not too sure. I know that the the laws are very different compared to Hawaii. I know that landing sharks is perfectly legal. Eating sharks is something that's done on a regular basis. I know, a lot of people have always ate, certain species of sharks on the East Coast like the Makos and stuff like that. It's considered like a prize meat. I'm not too sure. The way that I see it is, as long as there's more sharks in the environment, that is generally a positive thing for our ecosystems. If we see more sharks, we typically see more fish. We see see more or we see healthier fisheries. Mhmm. But, of course, if we have more people getting into fishing, if we get more people actively fishing out there on a daily basis, we're gonna encounter more sharks. So it's hard to say for me. I think generally, in a lot of places a little bit more or less fortunate than us. We're still seeing heavy amounts of shark fishing, places like Indonesia, Mexico, that kinda area. And so in those areas, I would say that shark populations are on a decline just because of how heavily those guys are fishing it because they need to for a necessity boat.

Tom Rowland: But that makes that makes total sense to me that you could have places where you're you're having, intense commercial fishing pressure and the shark populations are going down and other places where you're not having that and the shark populations are going up. But but some people won't even consider that that no. No. The sharks are on the decline, and and they won't even they won't even have a a conversation with you about that, which is, I don't know, somewhat closed minded, I would think. But they could be

Danny Mako: Yeah. I'm I'm always about the conversation. Like, I I'm never a guy where it's like, this is the right way or even in politics. Like, I love hearing the other side. I'm not, I would say, I'm very centered as an individual. I'm not left. I'm not right, but I have certain tendencies on both side.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Danny Mako: Surely, with the with the environmental stuff, I'm a little bit more, like, left leaning, but a lot of the other things, I'm right leaning. But I I believe, you know, the only way to move forward is just more data collection, more science, more people looking into these matters. I think Florida definitely could benefit from a lot more people going out there doing population studies, looking at how the sharks are behaving, looking how the sharks are interacting with fishermen. But like you said, I think it's always up for debate. Mhmm. My whole goal is to see, obviously, increased shark numbers. As a fisherman, I've been to some areas in the world like, Polynesia where we have really, really great populations of, sharks, especially reef species. And I don't know. Over there, in terms of prize fish, we got some of the biggest wahoo in the world, 100 pound wahoo swimming around. And so those kind of correlations, they make sense to me. If you got a nice healthy reef, you got fish that are spawning, populating correctly, that's gonna just, you know, provide that much more food for those larger tier fish to feed on.

Tom Rowland: Right. Then you have other places like, the Virgin Islands or something like that where you go and the water is unbelievably beautiful. You get in, the reef looks beautiful.

Danny Mako: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Almost no fish. And certainly no sharks. You know? Yeah. Like, weird. Like, spooky weird. Like Mhmm. Get in and you're just like, this should be if this was The Keys,

Danny Mako: we would be alive.

Tom Rowland: It would be unbelievably alive, but the reef looks better than The Keys, and the the water looks better than The Keys. It's just incredibly clear and beautiful, but just very few fish. Weird place. So the Tiger's your favorite.

Danny Mako: Mhmm.

17:52 · Bull Sharks, Eye Contact, and the Buddy System

Tom Rowland: And, you gave us a little bit about the personality of the tiger. Compare that to the bull shark and diving with a bull shark and and what what the difference is between the personalities and the and the different species.

Danny Mako: I would say, that's definitely my area of least experienced bull sharks down here in Florida just because, this is always like me traveling on vacation, coming for a limited amount of time. But, hopefully, I should be spending more time here with the bull sharks, and I'll learn more. But, yeah, I did completely different personality type. You know, the bull shark, very muscular, extremely fast, can really turn on a dime. From what I've seen from them, though, they're very well behaved around humans to a point where it's actually kind of spooky. They're, they're waiting in turns. They're lining up with my friend who's a professional guide and feeder, and he's feeding them as if you would, you know, your your dogs in the morning, giving them breakfast. So it is it is interesting to see. I could see them also being a little bit more difficult at times. Like, we all know that story about bull sharks in the murky water with spearguns, them reacting to spearguns, stuff like that. So I would say you have to be a little bit more on alert with the bull sharks. They definitely can change their temperament. They definitely can change their energy levels very, very fast. And in that murky water, they're gonna be relying more on their ears, more on those oversensory systems rather than seeing what you are. Mhmm. So I think a lot of times people are that's when they're getting those bad interactions with the bull sharks. They're getting bumped and stuff like that. But I would say as long as my main message for people diving with them is as long as you're keeping that eye contact, you're keeping tabs on those sharks, you're you're being aware of your situation just like you should be in any sort of dive situation, it lowers the chance of having a negative interaction massively. Of course, they're sharks. I don't I don't think they're puppy dogs. They need to be given a lot of respect, but, I think if you follow those kind of baseline principles of always keeping eyes on the shark, always trying to get that eye contact, you know, obviously, swiveling around, checking your environment. If you are getting a close encounter, if you have someone to create distance, whether that be a fin, whether that be a spear gun, you know, always kind of show your personal space and where your boundaries are at, I think you're gonna do absolutely fine.

Tom Rowland: And and so, like, there's probably a ton of people that are listening to this that would would like to dive with sharks or some people are saying, you know, I don't know why anybody would wanna dive with sharks. Mhmm. And a lot of the fishermen above the water, know sharks in a certain way, and and lots of guys I know wouldn't wanna get in the water. But I'm just curious, like, that sounds like, you know, some coaching that that you would give your customers before you get in the water. Is that is that kind of how you line it out? Like, what are the what are the things that you do and the things that you don't do either in Hawaii with tigers or or here with with bulls or lemons or or whatever else you're gonna dive for? What are the what are the things that keep you safe?

Danny Mako: So I think, just going back to what we're talking about, that's my main concern or my main point is the eye contact, looking around, paying attention. And then I think And

Tom Rowland: with with the eye contact, though, what what what are you looking for? Like, when when you're making eye contact with the with the shark, I don't necessarily think that it's thinking I see your eye. Like, I mean, you got a mask on and everything, but you're making eye contact. And what is the what exactly are you looking for with that shark?

Danny Mako: So, yeah, that's a good point. I'd say eye contact just so I get people to really fixate. But the the general, thing I'm looking for is that body position. So is that body position is forward. You're showing that forward body position to the shark. It's coming in directly at you. You're facing head on. You're showing, hey. I'm a predator. I'm not scared of you. We're on equal footing. I'm not a piece of prey. I'm not swimming away from you. And that is signaling to them, hey. Okay. Maybe I should reconsider getting a little bit closer. If there's an animal that's kind of giving that front positioning, just like any animal, you know, whether it be bear, mountain lion, any sort of predator, they're gonna have a second guess about getting any closer to you because they don't know what you have. You might be hiding a big set of claws, big set of teeth, and they're gonna be analyzing that. Their main prerogative is safety for themselves. Mhmm. They're never gonna, put, eating above their own personal safety. So even if they do get a food source, if they've taken huge damage getting it, that's not worth it for them. They're doing that accounting of what's worth what on a very fast basis. Split seconds. Okay. Is this worth me coming up to and investigating and potentially taking a bite? So just having that strong forward position, kinda showing them that you're tracking them. And then a huge one, especially with bull sharks, like I said, because they're not really relying on that eye contact when it's, murky water is splashing. Splashing is such a huge key to them that something's going on at the surface. I've literally been out there this week. I've done one big splash and watched all the sharks flip up and look towards me and come in and investigate just because that splashing indicates a dying, injured animal, whether it be a fish or, you know, a dolphin on the surface, and they're really dialed into that sound.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Danny Mako: Another thing to watch out for, especially in areas with heavy spearfishing, is the sound of that spear gun. That that band going off, that click of the spear gun, again, they've been hearing that noise, and they know, okay. I hear that noise, and a fish starts dying. So even just that noise now is gonna kind of, incite a reaction. So those are the certain things that I'm watching out for. Other things, we see some sharks sometimes reacting to certain colored items when something's very flashy, white. Looks like it's not really attached to the body, stuff like fins or gloves. You know, I've seen sharks come up and investigate, kind of check it out a little bit more.

Tom Rowland: White.

Danny Mako: White. Yeah. Just heavily contrasting colors. So really neon yellow, really neon white, that sort of stuff For whatever, reason, just because it's so heavily contrasted, it really catches their attention. And so they wanna come up and check that out and see if it isn't just a little piece of fish or something like that. So those are the things I would kind of watch out for, and those are my main points.

Tom Rowland: What about, being together with a with a group? Like, when you're I I see the videos of you doing the tigers and stuff like that. It seems like there's, you know, three, four, five people kind of close together. Is that something that that you advocate?

Danny Mako: I always think just diving in general, being in the water in general, having a buddy system is very, very important. I, I actually had an incident this year where I had a shallow water blackout, and if my buddy wasn't there, I wouldn't be here. So just having people there to watch your back because we're all human. We're not gonna make the perfect choice or be able to watch our own backs all the time. So just having other people there that can help you out, can watch over you a little bit because you might be dealing with a shark coming straight on with you, and you don't see the one behind you coming directly in as well. Mhmm. So just having that buddy system in play or if you can't have multiple people in the water, I always say, you know, you should never dive alone. It's just a easy way to end up in a bad situation. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely having those group situations, being together as a group, kind of not being spread apart so that if something does go wrong, you're 50 yards, a 100 yards from that other person, now you gotta deal with a current or, you know, you're not able to get back to the boat, that, again, you're just asking for a bad situation. So I think always being in a buddy system or in a group, kind of together, five to 10 yards between each other, that's the perfect situation for diving with anything, and especially sharks.

26:23 · The Shallow-Water Blackout That Nearly Killed Him

Tom Rowland: What happened in the shallow water blackout with you?

Danny Mako: So the the short story is I was spearfishing, and I basically was just feeling a bit under the weather, not feeling like myself. And I actually had, I forget the medical terminology, but I had a split in the lung. I started bleeding in my lungs, And, that was caused by just repetitive diving under pressure and trying to equalize under pressure. And because of that, when I came up to the surface on one of my dives, the the way that the oxygen left my blood was a a lot faster because of the blood already in my lungs, and it caused a blackout without any sort of signs. And, so I got to the surface. And as I got to the surface, I just immediately blacked out. My buddy was right there, grabbed me, ripped the belt, did all the right things. Shout out to Chris. He, he really helped me out. He, gave me some rescue breaths and got me to our float line, got me on the float. And, luckily, I was conscious by the time we got to the float line, and we swam back in together and, went to the hospital. Wow. Yeah. So

Tom Rowland: Man, do you remember do you remember that? Like, do you do you did you did anything like,

Danny Mako: that's a near

Tom Rowland: that's a near death experience. Right? Did you did you have anything that happened or you see anything?

Danny Mako: Yeah. So I actually had a very, very vivid dream, while I was out. Basically, I had the life flash before your eyes a little bit. It wasn't as, interesting as that, but, basically, I was in the same spot where I was diving. But instead of Chris, it was me and my brother. And my brother was there with me, and he was helping me. And he was telling me, hey. There's these people trying to trying to drown you, and we have to get to shore. And we swam together. He's holding me up, and I I can't tell you who the people were. Maybe they were not really people, but objects coming towards me trying to pull me down into the water. And, suddenly, I kind of started to question my situation. Like, why am I here? Why is Teddy here? Why is why is this happening? What's what's going on? And then as I started to scramble to conclusions, I realized in my head, I was like, oh, I blacked out. And as soon as I came to that conclusion, it was like the lights returned back on. I came back too, and I was there with Chris. So it was a really spooky situation, but definitely one I've learned from.

Tom Rowland: So and and what about your brother? Is did you dive with your brother? Is that somebody that you had spent a lot of time in the water with, or or was that a weird thing for him to be there, like, in the water with you?

Danny Mako: It was a very strange thing. So my brother is actually back in The UK. He's back in London. But, obviously, you know, growing up, first eighteen years of my life, that was that was my best friend in a way. You know, that was someone that I spent every significant, portion of my life with. So whenever we're doing stuff, it was me and him, you know? Mhmm. In every sport, we played sports all growing up. He was always like that older brother mentor. And so I think it just was my mind trying to figure out who this other person was helping me, and the automatic assumption was, your brother's here.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Danny Mako: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: You know, I've I've heard, kind of similar stories where people, are in a near death experience and then some a family member of some sort, an uncle, a brother, a sister, somebody is is all of a sudden there with them. And that person could be, you know, still alive on on earth or it could be someone that had passed earlier. But have you, you know, in your community, there's a lot of people that have blackouts in in your community, the diving community. Have you heard similar stories like that of people just kind of

Danny Mako: I've I've heard different stories. Not too many that have been like mine, more just kind of deeper internal looks in their life. And then, unfortunately, in Hawaii, we have a lot of cases of people not making it. So in the community, it's definitely kind of seen as as, like, I was a lucky one who got out alive. Mhmm. Just a week after that, we had two divers. Older, experienced divers, they were night diving together. And the way that they were found was the the flashlights. Someone saw their flashlights out there for hours, from their home on the beach. And, yeah, both of them, I think, unfortunately, maybe one of them blacked out. His buddy was trying to save him. He ran out of energy as well and and passed as well. Mhmm. But yeah. No. There's a there's a few people that have have told me similar stories. But, yeah, over times, people completely can't remember it, or maybe the trauma of the situation has just made them forget. I got I wasn't really like that. I was like, no. I need to remember this. I need to use this as a good building block for the future and and remember all my kind of safety safety protocols I need to take from this. Obviously, I'm a water professional. I need to just get back in the water right away.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that. Like, what was that like to to I mean, there was never a fleeting moment of, woah. I don't know.

Danny Mako: I felt I honestly felt very bad for my, partner, Chris. My partner, Chris, we we were out there because he just had gone for a breakup. This is supposed to be his, like, get your mind off things, and I basically blacked out on him and caused him a lot of stress. And so I think in my mind, the way I got over it was I was like, oh, it's so much worse for Chris. He had to deal with that. I just fell asleep and woke back up, and everything was fine. For him, he was he he didn't know what was gonna happen. He went into full survival mode. He was giving me, you know, rescue breaths and doing all the correct things to keep me alive. And so I think the way I got over my trauma was, like, it was way worse for him. He's just he's the one who's gotta deal with it. I gotta make it up to Chris. I gotta be a better diver for Chris. And, yeah. I didn't let myself kinda fall into that trap of being afraid of the water. I, as soon as I was good enough, you know, I started taking those baby steps back out and really

Tom Rowland: How many days was that?

Danny Mako: So I was in the hospital for about four days just because I ended up getting pneumonia from the water in my lungs and other stuff. And after that, I think it was about a week about a week, and then I got back into the water. Not doing any diving or anything like that. Just swimming, went out there with a friend of mine, just, you know, kind of, sat in the water, swam about a little bit, got back out, and then just started building from that point.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And then then holding your breath, like, I would imagine that even a little bit after having the, you know, the problem in the lungs. And so now that you know all of what the problem was and and, you know, what what caused this, how do you prevent that in the future?

Danny Mako: I think it's just you know, it was it was things in my own mentality, and I was believing I was invincible in a way. You know? I do this all the time. I'm such a you know, I've been in the water for over ten years almost every day. These rules that apply to everybody don't apply to me. And so I was going out there. I'd worked all day in the water. I've been holding my breath all day. I was exhausted. I was on two hours of sleep just because of, waking up so early in the night before not getting great rest and just, oh, I didn't need to worry about any of that. It was just a little bit of ignorance. And so now moving forward, I really do check myself and put myself into those those protocols. Like, hey. You know, you need to do this training. You need to do this cardio. You need to do this conditioning. You need to work on your breathing. You need to get the correct amount of sleep. I think overall, it's helped me push myself in the right direction in life in general. Like, you need to do these things that maybe you don't wanna do in a time. You need to get the work done so that you don't have to deal with these situations or you're doing everything correctly. And, that's the biggest lesson I took from it. Just, you know, really understanding what my job is as an ocean professional and how I need to train myself, prepare myself, and then actually implementing it, not being lazy and, you know, pushing it to the side because I don't feel like doing it.

35:01 · Into the Hot Seat: Rapid-Fire Questions

Tom Rowland: So it's a good transition. Ben suggested we go to the hot seat. So either or questions, you just answer them as fast as you can, and, helps us to get to know you a little bit better and help the audience to get to know you a little bit better. So you ready?

Danny Mako: Yeah. Ready.

Tom Rowland: Chocolate or vanilla?

Danny Mako: Chocolate.

Tom Rowland: Drive or fly? Fly. Text or call?

Danny Mako: Call.

Tom Rowland: Instagram or Twitter?

Danny Mako: Instagram.

Tom Rowland: Something you like to do out of the water?

Danny Mako: Train, gym.

Tom Rowland: 1,000,000 now or 10,000,000 later?

Danny Mako: 10,000,000 later.

Tom Rowland: Would you have a reptile as a pet?

Danny Mako: Of course.

Tom Rowland: Favorite place you've spearfished?

Danny Mako: Mexico.

Tom Rowland: Favorite non fishing or non diving location you visited?

Danny Mako: Zion National Park, Utah.

Tom Rowland: Good choice. One food you love.

Danny Mako: Oh, I'm gonna go with hibachi.

Tom Rowland: K. One food you will not eat.

Danny Mako: I eat everything. I'm I'm real. I'm not picky at all.

Tom Rowland: Omnivore. Would you rather walk with bears or swim with sharks?

Danny Mako: Dun dose. I know. Oh, wow. That's a good one. I gotta say sharks. I gotta give the sharks my my love.

Tom Rowland: Okay. One thing that scares you.

Danny Mako: A normal life.

Tom Rowland: Like, good answer. One thing that people may not know about you?

Danny Mako: Oh, I'm pretty open. So I would have to say I'm losing my accent, but I am English. A lot of people think I'm Australian Yeah. Or South African. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It sounds a little Australian there. Yeah. Okay. So English. What's one thing that you have changed your mind on in the last three years?

Danny Mako: That is a really hard one. I would have to say change my mind on. This sounds silly, but I've always wanted a truck, and I was always an f one fifty guy, and now I'm a Toyota guy. I think that's the Hawaii me.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Okay. That's that's good. A movie that makes you laugh.

Danny Mako: That's rubbish.

37:26 · Milkfish, Giant Trevally, and Goldfish That Aren't Real

Tom Rowland: Me too. Okay. And then we got a couple of questions from social media. So have you ever speared a big eye tuna?

Danny Mako: I have not. Not yet.

Tom Rowland: Have what's the closest call with a shark while spearfishing?

Danny Mako: Oh, I had my buddy in the water, first time in the water, telling him about spearfishing. I shoot a, milkfish, and, that's like a Hawaii thing. Really big fish, nice fish. Two black tips came out of nowhere and completely annihilated this thing in front of my buddy whose first time in the water. And he was holding one of the other fish. And I've never seen someone so, like, jaw dropped, eyes wide open. So that was probably the the spookiest spearfishing situation. Not for me, but just I was, like, worried about him.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Biggest fish you've ever speared?

Danny Mako: I shot probably a 60 or 70 pound GT in Hawaii.

Tom Rowland: Nice.

Danny Mako: Yeah. Stone dip. So didn't destroy all my gear or rip my gun. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Well, a 60 pounder. So I've been to, Christmas Island in Australia

Danny Mako: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: And fish for both GTs and milkfish over there. So I'm familiar with both those species. What is a milkfish good to eat?

Danny Mako: Yeah. So you can it's a soft flesh. Uh-huh. But what you do in Hawaii is you spoon it out and you create, like yeah.

Tom Rowland: Exactly. Thing they do with a bonefish. You know, you'll, they'll bake it, and then they'll scoop it out and then make, like, a fish cake out of it and then fry that. It's supposed to be really good. But, like, in Christmas Island, inside of the of the atoll, they used to, net net the, the milkfish. And then when they learned about how much people will pay to go over there and go bone fishing, they've kind of stopped doing that. But, obviously, when they were netting the milkfish, they were also netting bonefish, and so it was Mhmm. It was damaging. But some of those milkfish are massive. I mean

Danny Mako: Oh, they get huge.

Tom Rowland: They are they're just a wild fish, and they just when you have one, you know, they they almost look like it's totally photoshopped.

Danny Mako: Yeah. Kinda like a I like everything.

Tom Rowland: A queen snapper. You know? Like, a queen snapper looks like looks like a giant goldfish that somebody is, like, photoshopped on there. And you see if you've never seen one of those before, you see somebody holding it, you're like, that's not real. Yeah.

Danny Mako: That's not real. Exactly. It's the same exact thing. Saw one yeah. No. The first time I saw them, I was actually I was spearfishing, and, I had a school of 20 of them all swim past me. And they were circling, and they had their mouths open feeding on the, material. And I was, like, blown away. I was, like, do I even shoot one of these things? Like, do what what's going on? But yeah. No. They're crazy looking fish, like, big googly eyes.

Tom Rowland: They will eat a fly, like a a little fly that and some people have, I think some of the guides the early people to ever figure out how to catch them, they one guy had, like, green shoelaces, and he was like, well, this is the closest thing. And they took a little piece of his shoelace and put it on there and, you know, and made a little fly out of his shoelace. And then then they're all, like, fighting over the rest of his shoelace. Yeah.

Danny Mako: Like, no.

40:40 · Mag Bay: Marlin, Bait Balls, and Swimming With Bride's Whales

Tom Rowland: No. I gotta have this. Tell me about, tell me about some of these trips you've taken. Like, Ben, you might wanna pull up his, his Instagram there of, Mag Bay. Like, that's where you just were?

Danny Mako: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Now it's man. I mean, you're you're showing me things from under the water, but I've seen, you know, so many people fishing there where just the marlin and the bait balls and but what you're showing is, like, this whole other perspective that I haven't really seen, man. So Yeah. Ben will have your Instagram up if you wanna pick some, pick pick a a post and and, you know, talk about that. A little bit. Yeah. Sure.

Danny Mako: Yeah. No. I mean, yeah, if you wanna I mean, obviously, the first the first thing that comes to mind when I think about Mac Day is is the marlin, and that's probably what your viewers are used to as well. Like, the striped marlin run there with the sardines is one of the most insane things that I've ever seen. Yeah. A few photos from this is actually, two years ago, so when the ocean conditions were a little bit different. And, yeah, I mean, that's gotta be one of the top predators on the planet just in everyone's eyes. And they're

Tom Rowland: so lit up around these bait balls. I mean, I don't think you could ever get a more beautiful picture of Mhmm. I mean, that that is incredible. Right?

Danny Mako: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: That is such a cool picture of that that marlin coming through that bait ball. Yeah. Now we we have found as as we're diving and and, you know, filming for the television show, we found that the swordfish is is very dangerous fish to fish with. Did you feel like that with the marlin with these marlin or any marlin that you're that you're with? Do they are they in your in your opinion, are they dangerous to to swim with?

Danny Mako: So, of course, I felt that, when I first got in, when I first started interacting with them, I was so hesitant. I was like, this is a fish with a giant knife on its face, swimming at 70 miles per hour. It doesn't seem like a good idea at all. But I was so impressed by just how precise they are. I mean, these guys are sparing a sardine this big out of school and hitting it almost every single time, and they know exactly what they're going for. And And it was actually a case of me having to back away from them and and stop intimidating them. Because if you come anywhere near that bait ball, a lot of these shots are taken at a a longer vocal range. But if you come near that baseball, they'll back right off. So it's more a case of us giving them the space to work rather than, oh, it's absolute chaos. We got sword our bills flying everywhere, and you're almost getting spared. There was a few times where I felt a little bit intimidated, but after a while, you realize that these guys are just dialed into a different level of reaction speed. They're probably working in slow motion compared to us. So it's it's it's actually insane to see. But the funny thing is, you know, talking about them and how many Marlins we saw last year, this year because of the El Nino

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Danny Mako: We saw a completely different flip of things. What used to be, you know, Marlin dominated baseballs is now thousands of mahi mahi. More mahi mahi.

Tom Rowland: One of those videos that you think is what you're talking about? Like, is it that one there that

Danny Mako: we could do that one, or we could do the one the the picture of CJ, that's the picture that he actually, took of him that went pretty viral, but you can just see, like, how many mahi are just flying through this area and just actively feeding. There was bait fish all around, you know, attached to the boat running off. This is one of the bait balls that, we would we would stumble upon. So you can just see how many individual fish, individual good sized fish are hanging out. And that was all over. You could go into a zone where there's multiple bait balls like that happening in a mile, and there's hundreds of thousands of mahi all there. And we were shooting, you know, good fish, forty, forty five pound fish. There was fifty, sixty pounders swimming out there. Biggest mahi I've ever seen. Big probably the biggest mahi I ever will see. So it's just truly, like, probably one of the best places on Earth to see high level predatory fish.

Tom Rowland: The the water clarity here is like, what kind of visibility do you think you were having in some of these situations?

Danny Mako: Probably 80 to a 100 feet. You know?

Tom Rowland: As good as as good as Hawaii better than Hawaii? Like

Danny Mako: I would say there was definitely, as good as, probably not better, but we were having some locations where it we were really in the blue. Wow. Especially when we came across I don't know if, Ben can see, but that video to the to the left with the with the whale. Yes. So we had these large brides' whales coming through and just destroying the bait balls. I mean, these things are maxing out 60 feet. Again, very, very cautious, just waiting for the the right time. And as soon as everybody was away from the bait ball, just completely engulfing about half the bait ball. This one, not not too good at it. He he missed in that, situation. But over over whales, which were a little bit more experienced, it seemed like we're just destroying thousands of fish at a time.

Tom Rowland: What's your experience swimming with with whales like that?

Danny Mako: So that was, my first time with the brides' whales. So to give a little bit of kind of, clarity, the brides' whales, you know, they're similar to a blue whale. They're almost kind of like a dwarf blue, and, they were definitely different. Actually, in this shot, I was so scared because I didn't realize the tail was coming right here. So, again, good that I had people around watching me, and I was a little bit more aware because I kinda moved out the way at the last second. They realized his body was gonna flail up like that before he's gonna go through the through the bait ball. But, yeah, these guys, again, just, you know, gentle giants coming in, really timing it, avoiding people, avoiding bumping into anyone. And then, obviously, we we we saw some humpbacks out there, and humpbacks I've had some experience with. Those guys are, you know, fairly common in Mexico, Hawaii, French Tahiti. And, yeah, really, really amazing to swim with this this situation. Had a newborn baby just kinda relaxing at the surface. Yeah. Kinda hopped into

Tom Rowland: bad time. You don't you don't see like, whales aren't, like, protective. Like, you certainly certainly wouldn't wanna be with a grizzly bear and cub in that situation. Like, so a whale is not protective of their young? Like, that's not a dangerous situation, or it is a dangerous I don't know.

Danny Mako: I think being with any wild animal, you know, could potentially be a dangerous situation. You have to be cautious. You have to be respectful. You know? I had guests that were getting too well, not purposely, but might, you know, drift a little bit too close. Go and grab those people, pull them back, give the space. You know, they could do a lot of damage. But, overall, what I say to people is when you're out there, you'll be so massively surprised at how much nothing really wants to get involved with you. Nothing wants to really hurt you. They're they're basically just minding their own business, just drifting through. Even with a, you know, animal of that size, they don't really see you as as something that they wanna necessarily mess with. They're they're just looking to pass through, meet with other whales, kinda interact with other species. But, yeah, with us, they're the most that they're gonna do is is kind of swim down and and try and avoid

48:27 · Freediving With Tigers and a Grizzly Detour in Alaska

Tom Rowland: us. Wow. Look at that.

Danny Mako: But, yeah, this is just a video. Tigers? These are the tigers, and this is more of a, you know, a showcase of what they what they can be like. You know?

Tom Rowland: Stick your head in there. Is that you?

Danny Mako: That is, my coworker, Saba. He's a very talented diver. This guy's a, you know, amazing freediver. He's, over 200 feet, you know, in terms of depth on a single breath. He's spent years here in Florida, Mexico, Hawaii. And that was just to showcase, you know, that these sharks, although we want people to, you know, obviously love them and and feel safe with them, they're not puppy dogs at the same time. I think a lot of people get this image, and what annoys a lot of people is they're they're pushing this image that, like, sharks are these perfectly safe. Like, let me rub it on the belly, but they do have a predacious side. They are capable predators. We need to be aware of them. As much as I want people to enjoy sharks and go out and swim with sharks and kinda have these experiences, you have to understand that this is a predator as well. Just like with the grizzly bears up in Alaska I saw this.

Tom Rowland: Tell me about the grizzly bears. What did what were you doing up there, and why why why do you go from what I mean, I I love grizzly bears, and and I think that they're, like, my favorite land animal. Just also my least favorite land animal to see. Like, you know you know what I mean? Like, I have a incredibly healthy respect for grizzly bears. I was telling you about elk hunting, with my sons every year, and and Mhmm. I mean, we are in the epicenter of grizzly country. And, that one that is eating that salmon looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger of grizzly bears. Look at that thing, man. Oh my god.

Danny Mako: Absolutely. No. I I was lucky enough to so I work with a collection of very talented individuals. We kind of are all really good friends. We met through the industry. So, me, Tanner, Israel, Cooper, we all work in the same space, which is, you know, wildlife photography and, especially, you know, focusing on predators. And, Cooper, you see his his handle right there, Cooper Lost. He, spent the last seven years being a pilot and a fly fishing guide in Alaska. And so he, you know, he came out to me in Hawaii. I took him with the tiger sharks. I showed him around, and he was, kind enough to really give me the inside scoop and take me up to Alaska. And we did a little boys trip. We're gonna plan to do it again this year and really be out there near Katvai National Reserve, and really just get close and and observe these bears. Obviously, all this imagery is taken through very long range, camera equipment, so, you know, 400, 500 millimeter lenses. But still, when you're a hundred and hundred and fifty yards away from a grizzly bear, it's it's still an intimidating sight. You know what I mean? You're still feeling that pressure. Yeah. Yeah. But luckily, we were in the heart of, you know, salmon breeding season. There was a whole, you know, array of food for them to eat from the salmon to the blueberries on the ground, and these guys were completely, you know, mellowed out. They were, feeding up. They're in their probably their their biggest and bulkiest stage of the season before they go into that long hibernation. So I

Tom Rowland: mean, those berries are definitely a little bit different than the ones in Montana that are not feeding on salmon. But still, I mean, they are I mean, that's like walking into a professional football locker room compared to a high you know, a a grammar school locker room. Like, the size of those bears is just astounding.

Danny Mako: Oh, no. It's amazing. It was it was really humbling stuff. I mean, I think he did it a little bit because I took him with the tiger sharks, and he was like, you know, obviously, that was pretty scary for me. I kind of felt my adrenaline spike, and I was like, oh, really? Like, kind of, you know, not that I've lost the edge, but I've become more comfortable with it. And he's like, okay. I'm gonna take you into my environment with my animals, and you're gonna really, you know, see how you feel with that. But we did everything the right way, you know, walking around bear spray. We had a a loaded handgun just in case and, you know, obviously, giving the bears a distance, but that was definitely, hands down, probably one of the best trips I've ever been on my life. And Well,

Tom Rowland: Alaska is another one of those places. You know, I was telling you Yellowstone and and Hawaii, you feel the power there. You feel the power in Alaska too. Like, it is a it is a powerful place with you're in the wilderness. Like, even if you're in the city, like, the wilderness is just outside of that. You could see up there. I mean, I don't know. I love Alaska too. It's it's it's a great place. I was there last summer, and it was it was awesome. Love that place.

Danny Mako: Oh, no. It's truly truly one of the most beautiful places I've been. That was my first time to Alaska, and I can't wait to go back. I mean, again, I feel like like you were saying, these places that we're talking about or we're really interested in going to or really interested in exploring to, they're they're kind of the rawest place places on the planet. If you can find somewhere which is not really, explored or there's not a lot of human life there, you tend to find these crazy, amounts of wildlife or just situations or just kind of raw earth raw earth environments that you can't really find anywhere else.

53:56 · Turning Inexperience Into Your Greatest Strength

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So one of the things that you, mentioned in the in the hot seat questions was Mhmm. Something that you're afraid of is having a a an ordinary life. So you you certainly do not have an ordinary life, and and I don't see it happening anytime soon. But where did this this sense of adventure, this this this yearning for for this extraordinary life come from?

Danny Mako: I would have to say it it's kind of always the same situation just from, you know, growing up. My my grandfather, he was, you know, World War two vet. He always wanted to do certain things but never had the opportunity to, and he just kind of instilled in me this, kind of amazement for the natural world. Every birthday, every Christmas, he would buy me, you know, National Geographic books. He would buy me, Planet Earth films, and we'd watch them together, and we'd discuss things. And that's where that inspiration started. I grew up in England. I grew up in Manchester. Not that sort of environment. There was always that kind of yearning to go and explore these things. So I think not being able to do that in my younger years really just kinda grew this obsession, grew this this kind of drive to get out there and and experience these things because I was always watching it through a TV screen or reading it through a book, and that sort of, I guess, hold back or that tension really start to build. And then as soon as I got the chance to, you know, I just fully went with it, fully tried to make it my life. And luckily, you know, the stars aligned and it worked out. And now, hopefully, trying to keep it going forever.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's so cool. You know, there's a a phrase that I talk about here a lot is your your greatest weakness usually or can turn out to be your greatest strength. And in a lot of ways, you might think that your greatest weakness is that you grew up in Manchester and you didn't have a background of of spearfishing and diving, and and you had never been to these places. But on the other hand, like you say, that that drives this obsession, like, as opposed to someone who maybe grew up with it. And, of course, that person can become, you know, a a super waterman or or whatever as well. But a lot of people, you know, it's just like, oh, it's just another thing we do. Right? Okay. And then a few of those people will develop this obsession where most of the people that grow up in a city think, oh, it's kinda cool. I'll just watch it on TV. But a few of those people developed this obsession, and that was kinda my my story with with fishing. I grew up in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I didn't have any ocean experience whatsoever, and that's all I wanted. Like, that was that was it. I wanted to catch these these fish that I had heard about, read about in in, you know, Field and Stream magazine and things like that.

Danny Mako: And I

Tom Rowland: always just thought about that. Like, it it's the inexperience that that turns out to be your greatest strength eventually because you feel like I have so much to catch up on. I have so you know, I have to work so much harder than everybody else. And then you look up, you know, ten years later, and you're like,

Danny Mako: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: How did I I get I mean, like, I've done now more than these people that have lived here their entire life on Hawaii, and they've never done what what I'm doing every week. Right? Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? Like, you ever think about it like that?

Danny Mako: Absolutely. I mean, I I think it's like it's a hungry dog metaphor. Right? Like, if you have that that fighter or that that person who has to kind of work for it or doesn't have that option, you know, doesn't have that availability, they're always gonna be that much more hungry to get it. Like, everyone who grew up in Hawaii, they're so lucky to have these things available to them from a young age. But, also, like you said, it's it's it can be a negative because it's on your doorstep. It's never going away. It's never gonna be that that day where you can't go out spearfishing or you can't go out and do these things. And so you're you kind of, like, lose that interest or you lose that drive. And I think it's a very human thing as well. We always want what we can't have. Yeah. So being from those environments where it wasn't available to us, that in a way, I think for a number of years, motivated me in the rest of my life. It was like, I'm gonna build towards this. I'm gonna find my way over to Florida, and then I'm gonna find my way over to Hawaii. And that was what was pushing me so hard and eventually got me to that point. So yeah. No. 100%. That's that's kinda how I see it as well.

Tom Rowland: That's cool. Another thing that you mentioned in the in the hot seat was that the thing that you like to do out of the water is train. So as you're training, like, I'm imagining that you're you're training with spearfishing and holding your breath and swimming in mind, but I don't know. Like, what what kind of training do you do?

59:00 · Breath Work, Wim Hof, and the Hunter’s Calm

Danny Mako: So, I've always had training in my life. It's been, like, my number one of de stressing. My brother is also he's a master's degree suit student in, kinesiology. So he works in the fitness space. He's always been into, you know, lifting and sports and functional fitness. So a lot of it comes from, you know, him. He's always giving me ways to to train for the things that I love to do when I'm not in the water. So a lot of that revolves around doing functional fitness. You know?

Tom Rowland: CrossFit type?

Danny Mako: Like yeah. Exactly. So he works in that space. Not a 100% CrossFit because the translation is not always there. Mhmm. But a lot of that, like, building that engine, cardiovascular, I love getting under some weight. I love, you know, doing the the compound lift, a little bit of bench, a little bit of squats, all that kind of stuff. So, I think, yeah, it's a mixture of both. You know? I I do the conventional lifting, the conventional kinda like bodybuilding just to keep my head on a even keel. And then a lot of the other stuff is, definitely that breath work. So building that engine, doing a lot of cardiovascular so that in the water, I'm not losing energy as fast. I'm not struggling as much with, like, filling my lungs. They they have that that stretch in them. Especially after my accident, my whole kind of recovery process was was on building that stuff. But, yeah, the the the other part of my training would go into the actual static breath work.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So I'm interested in that too. Like, the first breath work you're talking about is, like, you're you're gonna dry land training on on a treadmill or rowing machine or SkiErg or bike or or running or something like that. Right? Like, just just standard cardio. And then as you move into the to the breath work for specifically for static breath hold breath holds, what what are you doing? Describe some of what you do there.

Danny Mako: So, basically, a lot of the stuff I'm doing is just going through different ways of stretching out my lungs and kinda testing myself on my dry line capabilities. So I actually worked with, a company or should I say a program to do my spearfishing or not spearfishing, for free diving, certifications. So I worked with a company called ADA. My good friend, Mitch, he's a instructor there, and he basically just trained me and taught me through all these different styles of moving your lungs in a way which helps them to kind of gain more volume. So I'm I'm blanking on the the specific names. They are, kind of I think they're Indian names. A lot of them are to do with, like, yoga.

Tom Rowland: Like hatha yoga? Hatha? I know hatha is one that that that they do a lot of, and Kundalini

Danny Mako: Kundalini. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yoga where you're doing a lot of breath work. I I got into, you know, the Wim Hof method about six years ago, and and and it's basically 40 giant breaths in

Danny Mako: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: And then you then you hold on an empty lung. Mhmm. But and and it's very good, and it translates very good to to CrossFit and, to to the training, but I don't know how well it trains how well it it, crosses over into actual breath holds. And I have this other app on my phone that's called Apnea app, and it has, like, a c o two table and an o two table, and there's different ones. And sometimes I'll do those too, but I I'm always curious with somebody that's, you know, like you that that focuses on this. Like, what actually helps you to learn how to hold your breath longer?

Danny Mako: So the the Win Hof, I do use, but I, usually use it for, like, ice bath. I do I do active recovery. Mhmm. But I do I really try to stay away from it with freediving. So the problem with the Win Hof is because of the way that you're breathing, you're expelling a lot of your CO two. And the CO two is that's that's the most important part about freediving. We don't wanna purge CO two because that's what leads the blackouts. The CO two in your system is what's gonna tell you, hey. I need to breathe. I need to come up to the surface. It's how you get those convulsions and how you kinda feel that pressure, And that's really important. A lot of people are trying to remove that. That's the worst thing you can do because it's actually dangerous. So I try and completely get people away from, Win Hof. It's a really great great breathing technique for other aspects of life, like training, like you said, in functional fitness and also doing other things. But in terms of freediving, it can be quite dangerous. So, a lot of the friends I have, they come to me, and they're like, hey. I've I've been really improving my spirit diving when I learned Win Hof, and I have to basically, like, break them down again and and and and realign them so they're actually doing almost like the opposite. You've taken those nice deep breaths in. You're calming your system down. You're going for those c o two tables. You're going for those o two tables and learning how to breathe the correct way.

Tom Rowland: So in instead of the 40 big deep breaths in and out, what what would you what would you do?

Danny Mako: So what I tell people when starting off is, the biggest thing is relaxation. Mhmm. So becoming comfortable in the water, getting, that nice slow heart rate, and how we achieve that is I would say to start off, you wanna do four seconds in, eight seconds out. So, basically, we're gonna take our inhalation breath, and we're gonna double it on our exhalation. So whatever you feel comfortable and what feels the most relaxing for you. For some people, that might be four seconds in, you know, eight seconds out. Other people that have that larger capacity, they're a little bit more cardiovascular. They're gonna feel more relaxed doing those higher numbers. So six seconds in, twelve seconds out, that kind of stuff. And moving all the way to, like, you know, eight or ten seconds in and double double those times. And by doing that, you're actually bringing your, resting heart rate down. And then once you get it down to a point where you feel nice and relaxed, basically the same kind of point you get right before you go into bed, but still conscious and still, like, you know, aware, just just feeling good, we're gonna take that nice deep final breath and then hold it there. And it's really important to practice all that statically so you can feel your body go through the motions and get that get that reaction. You're gonna you're gonna start feeling those convulsions. You're gonna start getting used to those convulsions. You're gonna get used to, when you actually need to breathe and when is the correct time to come up. So

Tom Rowland: When when you feel those convulsions and first of all, there's been a ton of people, die using the Wim Hof method in water. Right? So Mhmm. It is not to be done in water. And when I first started going through his course, he said specifically, do never do this around water. Somewhere along the line, that message got misinterpreted or whatever, and people are actually doing it in the water, and it's a terrible idea, and, like, twenty people have died doing that. So do not do that in the water. And even, even on these breath holds that we're talking about now, I would imagine that you're you would advocate dry land training not around water at all, when you're first starting this. But, when you're feeling those convulsions, and let's just say you're dry land training, you're just you're just practicing holding your breath just like you just went through. Mhmm. Like, is that something to be concerned about, or do you work your way through that and that's where you actually get the really long breath hold?

Danny Mako: I think as you you become more comfortable with it, you you start to feel them not less and less, but they they tend to you you understand that that's a normal part of your body reacting. And then once you feel comfortable with those reactions, then you can actually use them. Like, hey. Okay. I started my first convulsion. How long until my second convulsion? Because that first convulsion when you start off, that's gonna exert a reaction. Maybe that's gonna spike your adrenaline. Maybe now your heart rate's going a little bit faster. Now you're using more oxygen, and that next convulsion is gonna come a lot sooner. But as you get more comfortable, you're still gonna feel those convulsions, but you're gonna understand why it's happening, and you're gonna be more relaxed about it happening. And so that's where you get those, you know, longer breath holds. And then as you get more comfortable in the water, you're gonna be using less and less oxygen just because everything's gonna loosen up.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Danny Mako: Your hands aren't gonna be as tight on the gun. Maybe, you know, your shoulders are will drop and be nice and relaxed. All those little pieces which we don't even consciously think about, they're they're using massive amounts of energy, massive amounts of oxygen. And as you become more comfortable in that environment, that's all just gonna drop and you're gonna feel way better being down there. I also think it's it's really amazing to see how our body adapts in the hunting environment. You've probably seen this in fishing and bow fishing, but just how dialed in people get. With me in spearfishing, you know, if I'm doing a regular free dive and I'm in my head, I'm thinking about it. Okay. I gotta get down to this certain depth, and I've gotta stay down here. I'm training actively in the water. It's a lot more difficult to get those longer times because it's just me and the breath hold. Right. When you get a fish, especially a nice fish, and you're in that zone and you're tracking that fish and you're hunting, you just see how your body just shifts. And all of a sudden, you're down there for two minutes and you haven't even realized.

Tom Rowland: And

Danny Mako: it's just because you got into that that hunter mentality, and you started to kind of adapt a little bit and become a little bit more efficient at all these movements without even realizing it.

1:09:00 · Why Spearfishing Makes Time Disappear

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's super cool. Yeah. That's I I think spearfishing is one of the one of the coolest. I just I love it. You know, I like hunting on land as well, but the the hunting in the water, I think, is is super cool. Because Yeah. Like, when you're doing anything like that, lobstering we do a lot of lobstering in the in the trees and and, you know, you get down there and and, you know, really, it's a incredibly brief thing.

Danny Mako: Like,

Tom Rowland: when you're deer hunting in the woods, you're out there for eight hours. Right? Like, it could it could happen anytime, and sometimes you see one coming from a long way away. But when you're actually spearfishing, I mean, you're only capable, let's just say, longest breath holds around or, you know, six, seven, eight minutes maybe. But most people are, like, thirty seconds to to two minutes. Mhmm. And you're gonna go get it done in thirty seconds. Like, I think that's super cool. But over

Danny Mako: It's wild. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. But but, you know, it doesn't seem like that when you're doing it. It it feels like, wow. This was like a whole day of hunting in the woods, but it really, you know, took you thirty seconds.

Danny Mako: It's pretty cool. Exactly. No. It's it's it's it's definitely a crazy style of hunting, and, obviously, I don't have too much experience on the other side of things like hunting for deer and You will. Cow in a while. Yeah. I'm definitely gonna be pushing myself. That's my next chapter. But yeah. No. Exactly. When you're when you're down there, it's kind of like time slowed down a little bit just because you only have that limited amount of time. So every movement, every reaction has to be on the on the money, so to speak. You have to do everything kinda perfectly in that tiny, tiny chasm of time. And, yeah, it it it definitely is a unique style of hunting in that way.

1:10:46 · Wrapping Up and an Open Invitation to Dive

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Well, I know you got you probably gone shark diving today, I would imagine. Doing something.

Danny Mako: Not today. I'm actually flying back to Hawaii tomorrow. So so probably Wednesday will be the next time I'm in the water with the sharks.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Well, I'm glad I'm glad we got this squeezed in, and, we've got, your video up on all of the podcast pages, Tom Roland podcast, the Wild One outdoors, and all kinds of other ones. But, man, I love getting to know you a little bit and having you on the podcast, and maybe I can get over there to to Hawaii again. And, if I do, I'll look you up. That's for sure.

Danny Mako: Absolutely. I'd love to take you out with the sharks. Yeah. We definitely happen to have some pictures and videos of Tom rolling out in the wild with some tiger sharks. That would

Tom Rowland: be That would be so cool. That would be so cool. Well, Danny, we'll be following you from a distance until then. But go to, to check out his, his Instagram. It's absolutely incredible. We'll put it in the show notes. And, man, good luck. I don't know where your next trip goes, but after you get back, we'll do another podcast.

Danny Mako: Absolutely. Thanks, Tom. Appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: Thank you. See you.

Danny Mako: See you.