Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 412 is a conversation with Jared Zissu, founder of Flylords, one of the biggest names in fly fishing media. He tells me how a college freshman fly fishing the Elk River near the University of the South turned an Instagram account into a media empire, how Flylords works to bring new people into the sport responsibly around issues like spot burning and etiquette, and how he made a film centered on the legendary Lefty Kreh featuring Flip Pallot, Blaine Chocklett, and Bob Clouser.
▶ Watch on YouTube · 🎧 Listen now
Jared Zissu is the founder of Flylords, a leading fly fishing media brand. He started the platform as a college freshman at the University of the South while discovering a deep passion for fly fishing on the Elk River, and he has grown it into one of the most influential outlets in the sport, with a focus on bringing new people in responsibly.
Flylords began without much of a vision. As a freshman in college, right as Instagram was gaining popularity, Jared was trying to fly fish every single day and did not want to annoy his friends with daily fish pictures, so he created a platform to share general fly fishing content. They were among the first to do it, and it grew from there into a media empire.
Jared learned on the Elk River, a tailwater about thirty minutes from the University of the South, where he went to school. The river became an outlet to disconnect from school and the place his passion for the sport took root, first wading secret spots like one they called Red Barn and later floating it in a FlyCraft boat.
The film centers on the legendary fly fisherman Lefty Kreh and his impact on the sport. Jared and his team spent a couple of days at Flip Pallot's home, brought in Blaine Chocklett, who idolized Lefty and credits him as a main reason he became a guide, and featured Bob Clouser, capturing powerful, emotional conversations about Lefty's legacy.
The film features fly fishing legends including Flip Pallot, Blaine Chocklett, and Bob Clouser, all reflecting on Lefty Kreh's influence. Jared describes deeply moving moments during filming, and notes they handed the footage to an editor who had never picked up a fly rod and let him work his magic.
Flylords works to bring a large number of people into fly fishing while doing it responsibly. Jared talks about navigating issues like spot burning, ethics, and etiquette as the sport grows, trying to grow participation in a way that protects fisheries and the culture around them.
Lefty Kreh had a huge impact on my life and my fishing career, and if you are like me, he shaped you too. When I learned Jared and Flylords had made a film about Lefty featuring Flip Pallot, Blaine Chocklett, and Bob Clouser, I wanted the full story of how it came together. I also wanted to understand how a college kid turned an Instagram account into a media empire and how he thinks about growing the sport the right way. Press play in the YouTube player above.
Jared is honest that there was no master plan at the start. As a freshman fly fishing every day on the Elk River, he just did not want to spam his friends with fish photos, so he made a page to share fly fishing content, and they happened to be among the first there. He traces how that simple impulse grew into Flylords. For anyone building something online, the origin story is instructive. Listen to it in the episode.
The Elk, a tailwater thirty minutes from the University of the South, was where Jared's passion took hold, an outlet to disconnect from school. He describes wading secret spots like the one they called Red Barn, paying a few dollars into a worm can from the owners, and later talking FlyCraft into a deal on a boat that changed how he could access the river. It is a great picture of how obsession starts. Hear it in the player above.
This is the heart of the conversation. Jared describes spending a couple of days at Flip Pallot's home talking about Lefty, bringing in Blaine Chocklett, who idolized Lefty and credits him as a main reason he became a guide, and featuring Bob Clouser. He recalls a powerful moment where Flip teared up and his wife had to step in. Then they handed the footage to an editor who had never held a fly rod. Listen to how the film came together in the episode.
Flylords has brought a huge number of people into fly fishing, and Jared takes seriously the responsibility that comes with that. He gets into spot burning, ethics, and etiquette, the tensions of growing participation while protecting fisheries and the culture. It is a thoughtful take on a debate every outdoor pursuit is having right now. Press play to hear his approach.
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What I appreciate about Jared is that he built something massive without losing sight of the soul of the sport. Making a film about Lefty Kreh, and treating it with the care he did, says a lot about where his head is.
Lefty meant a great deal to so many of us, and this conversation honors that while showing how the next generation is carrying it forward. Listen to the whole thing.
The Tom Rowland Podcast brings you long-form conversations with the most accomplished anglers, hunters, conservationists, and outdoor professionals in the game. Listen to every full-length Tom Rowland Podcast interview.
Jared Zissu is the founder of Flylords, one of the biggest names in fly fishing media. He started the platform as a freshman at the University of the South while building a passion for fly fishing on the Elk River, and grew it from an Instagram account into an influential media brand focused on bringing new people into the sport responsibly. He produced a documentary centered on the legendary Lefty Kreh featuring Flip Pallot, Blaine Chocklett, and Bob Clouser, and he is an advocate for fishing ethics and etiquette as the sport grows.
Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 412 — Jared Zissu — building Flylords Media and honoring Lefty Kreh's legacy in the film Time.
Jared Zissu: Yeah. We, you know, we directed a couple questions that we wanted Blaine to ask, and it was a super powerful interview. Some of those questions, one in particular, I'm trying to remember what it was. It was maybe, like, what do you miss the most about Lefty, or what was your fondest memory? But it was a really powerful question. And I remember there was like thirty seconds of awkward silence, and Flip's wife had to step in, because he was starting to tear up, and she had to say, alright guys, let's take a break. So it was a very powerful topic, and I think that really helped. We didn't have a script. We said we're gonna spend a couple days at Flip's, in his backyard, talk about Lefty, bring in Blaine, who has a good relationship with Flip — and he idolized Lefty more than most people out there. He was one of the main reasons why Blaine became a guide. So just putting together these people and asking the right questions, and really just being there to capture it all, that was it. And then we throw all of our b-roll and interviews to our editor, who has never picked up a fly rod in his life, and we let him do the magic. This is Jared Zissu, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.
Tom Rowland: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast today. Got a great episode for you — Jared Zissu from Flylords is gonna be our guest today. We're gonna talk about all kinds of things, including the new film that he did with Flip Pallot, Blaine Chocolate, and Bob Clouser, all centering around Lefty Kreh and his impact on fishing. It's really good. Lefty Kreh certainly had a big impact on my life and on my fishing career, and if you are like me, he had that same impact on you. So we're gonna catch up and find out kind of what was going on with this production, how it came to be, and the opinion of it. We're gonna get into some other things about what Flylords is doing — bringing a tremendous amount of people into the sport and trying to do that in a responsible way, talking about things like spot burning and ethics and etiquette and all kinds of things like that. Really good conversation — I think you're gonna really like it. If you do, you can text me at (305) 930-7346. That's the way that you get in touch with me. It's better than the email, and it's certainly better than the DMs on social media — I really can't check those all the time. So if you wanna get in touch with me, this is the way: text (305) 930-7346, and I think you just have to put your name in there, and then you'll be talking to me, and we'll get back to you for sure. So anyway, we're getting ready for this great conversation with Jared from Flylords, and here we go. Jared, what's going on, man? How are you?
Jared Zissu: I'm doing well, Tom. Thanks for having me.
Tom Rowland: Absolutely. Thanks for doing this. Been a fan of Flylords for a while. Interested in kinda learning more about it and how this all came about for you, and especially some of the stuff that you put out later. But how did you start Flylords? What was the motivation to get it started? What was your vision?
Jared Zissu: Sure. Honestly, in the very beginning, there wasn't too much of a vision. It was essentially a newfound passion for fly fishing. I was a freshman in college, and it happened to be right around the time Instagram was gaining popularity. I saw the Lords of the Fly book on my kitchen counter, and I was basically trying to find a way to fly fish every single day. And it went from me not wanting to annoy my personal friends with fish pictures every single day, to creating a platform to share general fly fishing content on Instagram — and we were kind of the first ones there.
Tom Rowland: And so where were you at this time? What kind of fishing were you doing?
Jared Zissu: So I started fishing in college. I went to the University of the South, or Sewanee, in Tennessee. Thirty minutes from the school we had a little tailwater called the Elk River, and it really became an outlet for me to disconnect from school. I built a really strong passion around that river and the sport.
Tom Rowland: Nice. And when you were fishing the Elk, did you fish mostly wading, or did you try — I know a lot of people up there use different types of craft, from paddleboards to kayaks to anything they can get. What was your method?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, the first few years it was definitely wading, and we found this little secret spot we called Red Barn — you'd put a couple dollars into a worm can for the owners and hike down into some really nice holes. I think my junior year I convinced the guys over at FlyCraft to give me a deal on one of those boats, and it was definitely a game changer being able to access that river and experience what floating a river can be like.
Tom Rowland: Did you carry that boat down to the same access, or would you put in by the dam?
Jared Zissu: We put in by the dam — I'm trying to think if we ever took out down there. I think we did a few times; it was a pain in the butt to take out there, so we found some better take-out points.
Tom Rowland: Nice. And so all of that kind of leads you to start an Instagram account — that's what started Flylords. Is it Instagram?
Jared Zissu: Just an Instagram.
Tom Rowland: And did you experience success right away with it? There was certainly a time on Instagram where new accounts could grow much easier than they can today — I don't know if that's your experience, but it's certainly mine.
Jared Zissu: 100%. I call it the wild west days of Instagram — it was just a totally different place, and you could scale an account much quicker. Being kind of the first ones there definitely paid off for scaling that account quickly in those first few years, and that was really our foot in the door — having an audience quickly. And then obviously the platforms evolved from there, and it needed to evolve — you couldn't just do what we were doing early and still be successful today.
Tom Rowland: Why do you say that? What do you think has changed? Wasn't it the case with Instagram early on that if you put a post out, it went to 100% of your followers — everybody saw it? Wasn't that the case?
Jared Zissu: That was the case, and I felt like it went beyond that — there were accounts discovering you more. So you're totally right, the algorithm today only serves your content to a certain portion of your audience, and if a post is trending well, it'll serve it to more people. I think that's how they've created that addictive style of the social platforms — they use that algorithm to identify high-engagement posts and serve them to more people. But yeah, early days, if you had good content, it went to all your audience and beyond that, to new profiles — new people were discovering you.
Tom Rowland: Right, and that's why you'd get so much more rapid growth in the early days. That's been the case for us with every one of our platforms — if we're there early, it's far easier to grow than later. But you said something kind of interesting — that you thought the platform needed to evolve, because you wouldn't be able to be successful if it didn't. Explain that.
Jared Zissu: So I think early days it was really about sharing content and sharing stories, and photographers and content creators were so stoked to see us share their stuff. In those early days, we would share something from someone and send them back 5,000 new followers, and they were like, "Oh my God, thanks so much for sharing." You share someone's content today and it's, "here's an invoice for that content." So it's definitely evolved, and the main difference for us is we went from sharing content to creating content. I think as a media platform, making that transition was extremely valuable, especially for the long run of the platform and the brand.
Tom Rowland: Was that a difficult decision — to decide that creating content needed to be a focus? And why did you come to that realization? All the things you just said are deeper things.
Jared Zissu: Yeah, it was probably a mix of both. I've always been passionate about creating content — it started with Instagram, and I think a lot of people in my age group probably started on Instagram because you finally had this tool where you could go out, take a photo, share it with your audience, and get that feeling of, "oh, look at all this appreciation, I'm getting these likes, these comments." So early on you got that satisfaction of being able to create something special and share it with your audience. For me, that was being able to drive emotion through my friends and peers — that was really interesting to me. I started taking some film classes in school, and I still remember our first film project was with Will Taylor from Flatts Shop Co, who's a good friend — he invited us down, and I brought a videographer from my college, and the two of us spent a day in Will's playground, and it was incredible. But being able to tell that first story, share it with people, edit it, and put the music behind it — it felt really good. I was also really inspired by some of the other filmmakers out there — early on it was the Felt Soul Media guys, who made Eastern Rises, which is still one of my favorite films, and Kamchatka. Those guys were a big inspiration for me — I still remember emailing Ben and Travis, saying, "hey guys, can I have an internship this summer? I'll come work for free," and they said, "we don't need an intern," but they were super nice about it. That's kind of how it progressed — we were never able to create enough content to post every single day, so it was also sharing some stuff, creating some stuff. That's been the transition over the last three years — to be able to share and source, and pay for content, and share content that's either sourced originally or created ourselves.
Tom Rowland: That's interesting. And so this has given you some good opportunities — the one I like in particular is one of your latest projects, with Flip Pallot, talking about Lefty Kreh's Time. How did that project come about?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, it's crazy how fast things move at times. We've got a friend who works for the American Museum of Fly Fishing, a nonprofit up in Vermont doing some really cool stuff. They reached out to us and said, "hey, we wanna reach a younger audience, and we wanna partner with Flylords on a video project to try and do that." They said, "we wanna be in the Fly Fishing Film Tour." I remember early in those conversations — I worked at the Fly Fishing Film Tour, I was the road crew for a whole year with them — and I said, "we can't guarantee you're gonna be in the film tour, it doesn't work like that, but we can try really hard." So that's how the conversation started, and I still remember putting together a budget for this project. For the first time ever we put down a budget that would allocate enough to bring all hands on board and create something at a higher caliber than our other projects, and I still remember them saying, "okay, sounds good," and I was like, "whoa, you're actually gonna give us this much money?" In the grand scheme of things it's not a lot of money, but for the fly-fishing production industry, or however you wanna describe it, it was a lot of money, and we spent every penny making this thing. I still remember the first call with Flip, asking him if he'd be interested in working with us on this — and obviously it wasn't, "hey Flip, do you wanna work with Flylords on this," it was, "hey Flip, do you wanna work with the American Museum of Fly Fishing," which allowed us that entryway. I don't even think he knew who Flylords was — well, he follows zero people on Instagram, so that doesn't help. But I still remember that first phone call with him — I was with our cinematographer and editor, and we had him on speakerphone, and just hearing his voice over the phone, we were all starstruck. We'd been looking up to this guy for a long time. And I remember him talking about time, and he said time is all he has — I think it was in reference to giving his time to us for this project, and maybe there was some compensation involved in that conversation too, but that really stood out to us, because our team is 28, 27, 29, and we're sitting in that room listening to him talk about time this way, and we don't look at time that way. Time is, in abundance, not quite as much anymore, for us — but compared to him, who has this perspective on time as this legendary soul who's done everything. So that was really where the backbone of the project started, him talking about time, and eventually, from that first phone call, the project ended up being called Time. But that was how it kicked off.
Tom Rowland: So it kicks off like that. Was the intent immediately that this was gonna be focused on Lefty, or did that happen as you started working on the project?
Jared Zissu: We went into the project, and some of the guys at the museum thought that telling a story about Lefty — Lefty had passed away in 2018, I believe, and we worked on this project in 2019, so it was definitely close enough to when Lefty passed away that it was a very relevant topic to talk about. The museum has a lot of great memorabilia from Lefty, including his old vises and things like that, so from the beginning we did wanna find a way to include that story. That was also part of the pitch to Flip — let's tell a story commemorating one of your best friends and partners, Lefty Kreh. And it was funny trying to tell Flip it was gonna be a seven- or eight-minute cinematic experience — that was a very interesting conversation, because he was like, "how do we fit the story about my relationship with Lefty into seven or eight minutes? I think this should be forty minutes long." And I gave him some pushback — I mean, all of our projects are shorter, and I don't know if that's just the evolution of attention spans. There's definitely still a time and a place for a longer film, but I think you can really convey an impactful message with a five- to ten-minute film these days, if you tell it right.
Tom Rowland: And so did you have help telling that, or did you learn these skills in school, or what? How do you get to be an efficient storyteller in seven minutes?
Jared Zissu: A lot of trial and error, and I think, honestly, my skill is that I'm pretty good at delegating, and I'm pretty good at finding people who are really good at what they do. That's honestly what I'm passionate about — finding people who are really good at what they do, who are passionate about it, and investing in them to tell the best possible story, whether that's the guy pressing the record button, or the guy in the editing room, or the guy helping us write the script. It's really trusting these people, and I've been extremely fortunate to build relationships with our team over the past few years, who are just so talented.
Tom Rowland: Well, you certainly did a great job on this one. On one hand, it's an easy thing to do because you have such colorful characters in Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh, but on the other hand, it's incredibly difficult to condense lifetimes into a short period, whether that's a twenty-minute film or a seven-minute film, or even just choosing one picture that embodies this whole story. On one hand it's kind of easy because there's just so much there, but then that's also the challenge — there's so much there, it's really difficult. So when you started this project — you included Bob Clouser and Blaine Chocolate and Flip, and of course the centerpiece is Lefty, and his impact — not only on these guys, but on everybody, people like me, people like you, people just getting into the sport today. Even though he's passed on, he left an indelible mark that few people leave on any sport, or any activity. He was a really special guy, and he did some really cool things, and he got so many people into the sport. So when you're looking at this story, and you go to Flip, do you just let him talk and then choose the best pieces, or are you steering him in the direction you want the story to go?
Jared Zissu: He's such an articulate and powerful person. So when we sat down with him — and this is how a lot of our projects go, finding that right time to sit down and do a really powerful interview — we actually had Blaine do the interview with him. The only direction we really gave was putting together some questions, and honestly they're not questions I think were genius for coming up with — I think any cinematographer probably would've had similar questions. But we directed a couple of questions we wanted Blaine to ask, and it was a super powerful interview. One in particular, I'm trying to remember what it was — it was maybe, "what do you miss the most about Lefty, or what was your fondest memory?" But it was a really powerful question, and I remember there was like thirty seconds of awkward silence, and Flip's wife had to step in, because he was starting to tear up, and she had to say, "alright guys, let's take a break." So it was a very powerful topic, and I think that really helped. We didn't have a script — we said we're gonna spend a couple days at Flip's, in his backyard, talk about Lefty, bring in Blaine, who has a good relationship with Flip and idolized Lefty more than most people out there — he was one of the main reasons Blaine became a guide. So just putting together these people, asking the right questions, and really just being there to capture it all — that was it. And then we throw all of our b-roll and interviews to our editor, who has never picked up a fly rod in his life, and we let him do the magic.
Tom Rowland: Well, he did a really good job. And sometimes — our editor on Saltwater Experience isn't really a fisherman either, and in a lot of ways that's been one of our biggest advantages, getting it into the hands of someone who can tell a story not based on the emotion of being all into this world, but from a different perspective — like, "I know you guys think that's cool, but it doesn't make sense in the story arc." They create a story arc and put it together in a way that anyone, whether you're a fly fisherman or not, would understand what's going on. They may not appreciate it quite as much as somebody deeply entrenched in it, but they tend to hold that story arc together better, because they're looking at it with fresh eyes. Do you do that a lot with your films — do you have an editor who isn't fishing related?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, this particular editor we've built a relationship with — I think we've probably worked on ten or so projects with him by now — doesn't fish, and exactly what you're saying, he's a storyteller. He's gotten better at, like, "hey, this hook-set is really cool, we should probably put that in there." We just put out an Alaska film a few days ago, and he really nailed the intensity of fishing in the backcountry of Alaska. He's definitely developing nicely, but I totally agree with your point — to be a good editor, for a fishing film, you don't need to be an obsessed angler. You can just be a good storyteller, and that's been a strength.
Tom Rowland: For sure. Sometimes the obsessed-angler editor can do both, but a lot of times you can see this in a lot of deer-hunting shows — guys who really love deer hunting put together something they think is so cool, but it's just a bunch of kill shots back to back to back. It's like, where's the story here? There's no story. But the way that you tell a story, and the way you did in this particular movie, Time, is really good — that one was really good, because you're also tackling a subject that isn't easy. Lefty Kreh is such a figure that it would be really easy to get this wrong and do a disservice to this guy who's had such an impact on so many people, and somehow you didn't do that. I think having Flip Pallot involved certainly helped greatly, because he has such a relationship with him, and he's such an authentic figure. But did you have any trepidation about doing something about this figurehead? It'd be like doing something on Muhammad Ali rather than Mike Tyson — this incredible, larger-than-life figure. You're coming to this as a younger person — your motivation to get into the sport was Instagram, where other people's motivation might have been A River Runs Through It, or something twenty-five years earlier. So was that a thought, that Lefty was such a big figure?
Jared Zissu: Honestly, maybe we didn't realize how big this story was. I mean, we knew it was a big story, but I think we were so focused on trying to make something for the Fly Fishing Film Tour — we were going back and forth with a few people we'd show the film to, asking if they thought it was ready to submit, and they even gave us feedback on the piece. We were so focused on making a piece the film tour was gonna accept and share that I don't think we realized the pressure of telling the story right. I think our editor felt that — he said, "I don't wanna tell the story in a bad way." But yeah, we got kind of lucky there, in that sense.
Tom Rowland: Well, good for you, man — you did a good job with it, and I think it did Lefty justice, and it did Flip justice. It brought in younger people like Blaine, and brought in old friends like Bob Clouser — it just did a really good job, and you could've continued down that line for years, with all his friends and all the people he impacted, but it was a good choice. You did a really nice job on it — I really, really liked it. I was impressed with it. I thought it was a really good film on a very difficult subject. So what do you got going on now?
Jared Zissu: Well, first of all, I really appreciate that, Tom, and that means a lot coming from you — I know you're a legendary angler yourself, probably one generation down from the Flip-and-Lefty crew, but it means a lot coming from you.
Tom Rowland: No, well, this was really well done, and difficult — I mean, if I'd been asked to do that, I would've been like, I don't know how we're gonna do this. Where do you even start with Lefty Kreh? And maybe it's a good thing that I don't know — he was just such a prominent figure. But anyway, you did a great job with it. What's going on now? What does the year look like for Flylords coming up?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, it's busy, in a million places mentally right now, but it's a lot of sending photographers out. This month we've got one of our photographers going down to Guatemala to shoot some billfish content for a few days. I'm leaving tomorrow to go up to Oregon, working on a series for Buff right now, that's gonna be coming out in April. And then we've got some work — not public knowledge yet, but we're gonna be doing some work with the guys over at G. Loomis, I don't know if I'm supposed to say that — some content work with those guys. So we're gonna have a really fun plate of projects this year, and obviously navigating COVID stinks. We're trying to stay as professional as we can — I've gotta go get a COVID test today, our cinematographer's getting a test, our photographer's getting a test, some of them cost money because they're last-minute, but we're trying to stay as safe and professional as we can during this weird time, and the show's gotta continue, so we're working our hardest.
Tom Rowland: Did you make any interesting pivots this last year — I mean, we're getting close to it being a year. Really, February was the Miami Boat Show, and I remember there were a lot of people sick there — I don't know that I necessarily thought much of it, I was like, "oh, it's terrible flu season." But then in March, when things started happening, I'm like, man, there were a lot of people who were really, really sick at the Miami Boat Show — I wonder if that was COVID. And then the next thing you know, here we are, it's January, we're closing in on a year, and everyone's business changed considerably. And here we are talking about how your business has turned into content creation, and you're sending photographers out, doing these films. How did not being able to travel, and being in quarantine, and all of that — how did you pivot, or what pivots did you make to navigate that since March?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, that's a good question. I still remember that first couple months of just being like, what do we do? Accounts that we had, that we were counting on for the year, just completely froze or left — I'm sure you probably experienced something similar — but we had to be creative, and we started from scratch. What do we do here? The first thing we did was launch a series called Staying Afloat, an interview and Instagram Live series with anglers and guides and fly shops who were all hurting. We talked about how they were being affected by COVID, and how people could support them, and how they were gonna get through it. A series like that was nice because we didn't have to travel anywhere or shoot anything — we were able to create content through existing photos and communicate through Instagram Live. So that was the first pivot, and utilizing that interactive platform, like Instagram Live, was something we saw a lot of value in, and it's something we're trying to do more of this year. Obviously it got a little better after a few months, toward the end of last year, and we were able to get on a few trips and get out and do things. Another pivot — for the last few years we'd been traveling to Argentina and Iceland and the Seychelles and Christmas Island and all these different places, and we've been super fortunate to work with some of these fly-fishing lodges. This year it was nothing — we were supposed to go to Sweden, we were supposed to go to Iceland, it all got cancelled, and we had to put our eyes and our content toward the local stuff. We just moved to Colorado, so being able to shift and pivot to US-based content was something we kind of had to embrace, and it was tough. We did a four-part series for Colorado tourism on the local tailwaters here in Colorado, and we had to be extremely careful not to blow up people's hotspots and backyards. For me, I did the whole road trip with one of our other guys, and it allowed me to see how valuable our backyards were, and how we really need to protect these areas — especially in a year where the industry has grown so much. It changed the whole model of what we're doing, and the whole message we want to share with Flylords. It changed from, "we just want to inspire people to get outdoors and go fishing," to, "we want to inspire people to get on the water, because those people are gonna help protect the water." If we introduce somebody to fly fishing, and we convince them to go check out a tailwater in Colorado, they're gonna fall in love with it, they're gonna catch a fish, and that's gonna be somebody who's gonna end up contributing to Trout Unlimited or Bonefish & Tarpon Trust. So our whole message has really changed, and I really think that was brought on by this pivot — focusing on our backyard fishing experiences, versus going down to Patagonia, where you catch as many trout as you can, and we're not really focused on a conservation message down there.
Tom Rowland: Right. So the conservation message — do you have a theme on it, or is it just protecting the areas that we fly fish?
Jared Zissu: I think for us, since we have such a large social presence, a lot of times we're that first touch point for somebody — if somebody's friend is getting into fly fishing, they might say, "hey, go check out the Flylords Instagram account." And our goal on that surface level is to be like, "hey, this is fly fishing, this is how you handle the fish" — we're doing a fishing-etiquette series — "it's a really cool sport, it brings you to beautiful places, it introduces you to beautiful people." And I think, being that first touch point, it's our responsibility to educate those people as much as we can, introduce them to the local nonprofits or local conservation groups advocating for their local waters, and give them the tools they need to be good stewards — of the land and of the sport, which is something Flip's Time film touches on too.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, man, that's a great direction for sure. So there does become a responsibility — that was gonna be my next question — as you build this audience and introduce people, where does the responsibility lie to teach them to be good stewards? And in the etiquette piece — like you said, you're just getting ready to do an etiquette piece — how do you see doing that? Do you partner with young guides, old guides, guides of different opinions? Because there's a lot of different etiquette in fishing — take a nymph fisherman and a dry-fly fisherman, or a streamer guy, they have different opinions on how you'd pass someone on a river. So how are you deciding on the message on etiquette? Are you partnering with other guides?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, that's a great question. We've got a really solid team of writers, and some of them are past guides, and some of them are 15-year-olds who just got into the sport. Connor was on our team for a while, so he's been in some of those meetings. Whether it's the opinion of an old salty guide who's been doing it for sixty years, or the new guy down in the Keys who might be getting pushed around and can't really carve out a niche for himself — I think everybody's opinion is valuable. For these etiquette series, we're starting on some tangible pieces that aren't too clashy when it comes to people's opinions. We just did one on spot burning — we're a couple into the series now, and we talked about tips on how not to spot burn, and that brought up some really interesting—
Tom Rowland: Yeah, that's interesting — let's find out what that was all about. I didn't read that piece, but I'm interested to know what the tips are.
Jared Zissu: Yeah, well, for the first thing we had to be careful about — because people see us as a big Instagram platform that built our audience through Instagram, people have called us out for spot burning in the past, but that's something we've definitely tried to be a lot more careful with as we've evolved. Things like blurring out the backgrounds of your image — I gotta dive into the actual article, I was more focused on the comments we were getting on Instagram after we posted. And honestly, that's an interesting topic too, because some people were saying — and I'm not gonna go into too much depth, maybe you could take a look at some of those comments — but there were definitely some people saying it was almost elitist not to share your spots, that all these spots are Mother Nature's spots, and that people shouldn't be keeping secrets about their fishing spots. We didn't really agree with that — I'd be interested to hear your perspective on it.
Tom Rowland: Man, this is a very interesting conversation, because as a young angler who doesn't have a lot of spots, you're so hungry for spots that you don't see why anybody wouldn't tell anybody where they're fishing. But then, as someone who's been around a while, you learn something other people don't know, and it's like wealth — it's a completely different experience, because people aren't going there, those fish aren't being pressured, they're not being bothered. To tell just anybody about that, all of a sudden that's gonna be the same as the rest of the river, and that special experience doesn't exist anymore. At some point in your career, it seems infinite — you can find so many more of these — but if you've been fishing the same river for fifteen years, you realize there's only so many of these special places. My feeling is I would never hold back information that would keep someone from getting into the sport, or talk to someone in a way that would discourage them — I want to promote fishing, all types of fishing, as a great activity. But does that mean I have to tell you the things it's taken me thirty years to learn, on the first day? I don't subscribe to that. And then you have the spot-burning discussion, where you've learned this spot, and it's your right to do whatever you want with it — but other people know this spot too, and when you give up the coordinates and the trail to get there, don't be surprised when other people aren't super happy with you. Some people are happy, because they just learned a new spot; other people aren't, because you just brought a hundred and fifty people into a spot that can really only accommodate one or two. So I think it takes some wisdom to understand when a spot is fragile and can't take that kind of pressure — you have to be very, very careful about putting that out to public knowledge, because in a weekend it doesn't exist anymore. It's a tough thing, because you want to encourage less-experienced anglers, but you also want to protect the spots the more experienced anglers have found. It's a real delicate balance, and I think pretty much everyone's experienced the highs and lows of it — like, "I showed this guy how to fish and gave him a spot, and now they're having a really good time," and that's very rewarding. But you can do the same thing to another spot and think, "guess I kind of blew that spot up, because I've never been able to fish there by myself again since that article, or that picture." I'd imagine the comments on something like that are wide-ranging.
Jared Zissu: Definitely. When I think of this conversation, I also think back to that film 120 Days, with David Mangum — did you get a chance to see it? One of the best quotes in there — I've fished with David, and he's clearly one of the best tarpon guides out there, and he's so intense — he's got this skiff buoy bouncing in the water, and he talks about how these places are his intellectual property, because he's found them, he's put in the hours to work for them. That mentality — as a tarpon guide, he makes his living bringing people to spots he spent years learning. Obviously it's a little different than a trout stream, where there's only so many spots, and there's probably a lot more research that goes into some of these tarpon spots. You've trout-guided and tarpon-guided in saltwater, so you've probably seen the difference in those fisheries. But yeah, I don't know your opinion on intellectual property, or if that's a thing.
Tom Rowland: Well, it sure is for the people that believe in it. Now, where David's fishing, there just aren't as many spots as there are in the Keys. I've fished with David, and it's few and far between — the bottom up there is black as night, and I thought, well, I can see tarpon on dark bottom at least a little bit, because we fish them over turtle grass in the Keys, and you can see them pretty well, even over some dark bottom sometimes. But up there, you can't see them — it's really difficult, especially with the afternoon thunderstorms that pop up every day, and there's just not a lot of places. So I can certainly see where David's coming from — he found these spots where it's possible to fly fish for tarpon, it took him a long time to do it, so those are his, and that works really well when there's only a few people fishing up there. But as more and more people go there, I feel like you can only protect it so much — but I'm sure that's where he's coming from, that if he wants to have any place to fish, he's gotta protect what he knows. So I see both sides of it. In the Keys, if somebody's in your spot, most guys just move on, but there are certain places that are a war zone — it's been known, people fight, people fight back at the boat ramp, they fight back at the marina, they fight out on the water over these particular spots. And it's the same argument — they wouldn't know to fish there if they hadn't seen this other guy there. I don't like confrontation on the water at all, whether it's freshwater, saltwater, bluegill fishing, or blue marlin fishing — I don't like controversy, I don't like confrontations, they typically leave me with a bad feeling in my stomach all day, especially if you've got customers there — it doesn't feel good for them either, it's not a good day. Some people don't mind it, it doesn't bother them, but I try to find some other place to go rather than have the big confrontation on the water. It's a tricky thing, man, because especially if you've been at it a while, you can see both sides — it's not yours, it's everybody's. But there's also a way of — I don't know, that's a tough one. That's why I wanted to ask you about what you put in the spot-burning article, because there are many levels and nuances to that argument, in different areas — it may be a slightly different argument than others. But I'd imagine the comments on those things lit the internet on fire, because it's a sensitive subject.
Jared Zissu: Yeah, it's definitely a juicy topic — anytime you have somebody very opinionated about one side or the other. I think in this case it's more about that intellectual property — "I found this spot, I don't want anybody else to know about it." There's definitely a lot of people who feel very passionate about that. And then probably people who are newer to the sport — which there's nothing wrong with — but they probably want, and the new fly-fishing culture, which Orvis is spearheading, and some other companies as well, is really about inclusion and sharing. Ten years ago — and you probably know better than me — it was probably a different scene out there, but there's definitely positives to making the sport more inclusive. And what I'd say is, we want to see the sport grow — a lot of people probably don't want to see it grow, because when they go up to the Fryingpan, their favorite hole has two people in it. I'd like to see it grow, because, like I said, the more anglers we have — and it's probably similar in the hunting space — the more conservationists we have. Do we have to maybe get up a little earlier and go out in the winter to find some of these spots in solitude? Yeah, hell yeah. And honestly, that's some of the content we're working on right now — we've got a piece with Sims coming out in March with their new wader line, and it's really about going further and finding these places. I think more than ever, that's the truth — you can't just drive your car and pull up to the honey hole anymore, you gotta put in some time and research and hike a little further. And I think that's a cool part of the sport, and something my generation is definitely embracing a little more.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, for sure. A lot of times people have one attitude about something — "just share, share" — everybody shares, then everybody knows all the spots, and you spread out all the pressure, and there's never too many people in one spot. But then you share with one person, and they do exactly the opposite of what you might do to that spot — they go there every single day and just camp on it, like they build a house there and now they live in this spot you showed them. And that's when you get burned, and the attitude starts to change — you showed the spot to two or three people, and nobody put a lot of pressure on it, and then you show it to one person who feels differently, and it's the best thing they've ever seen, and they never go anywhere else — and it's like, okay, cool, well now you know where that person is, and they're gonna be there all the time, so it's easy to fish around them. But all that works well when there's a lot of spots to fish — when you're fishing small water, or areas where the spots are really limited, that becomes a big problem, and tempers flare, people get really upset about it sometimes.
Jared Zissu: It's one of those sports where information is so important, whether you're getting it from a podcast, a YouTube video, your local fly shop, a guide, or somebody on the water — information is so valuable in this sport, whether it's what leader you're throwing, what fly, what size, what color, how many split shots you're using, especially in trout fishing, and in saltwater as well. That information is so valuable, it makes sense to take the time to learn it. There are obviously books on the best places to fish in Colorado and what to use, but it's something that intrigues me about the sport — you never stop learning. A good example — we have two fly shops here in town, right before you go up the Fryingpan, Taylor Creek Fly Shop and Fryingpan Anglers — and when I go up for a day on the Fryingpan, I'll stop into both shops and ask them to pick out a couple flies for me, and they're always different flies. So I'll build a box with a few different opinions, and when I go out there I'll set up a rig with both of those opinions on it. But yeah, I think that's a cool part of the sport as well.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, you know, when we talk about spot burning and sharing information, there's, like, different types of information — there's information where you've kind of earned the right, according to somebody else, for them to share it with you, either because you've shared something valuable with them, and now you're a trusted source — "that guy turned me on to this, now he's asking a question, I feel like this is an even trade, there's a trade of information." And that's quite a bit different than a newer angler, or somebody who doesn't know a lot, just expecting to get information completely for free, with no trade, as opposed to earning it and proving to someone you're not gonna be the one who camps on that spot, or shouts from the highest mountain that somebody's secret is your idea. There's an earned knowledge and an earned sharing. Do you ever talk about that in your articles, or in the comments online?
Jared Zissu: I definitely agree with you, and I think we do talk about that a little bit. In this particular article, we were just saying, here are some things you can do to not blow up your spot.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, isn't it funny how you can start an article with great intentions like that — "here are five ideas to not blow up a spot" — and the next thing you know, the internet's on fire, like, "why did you write this article?" I'm not saying yours went that way, but I could see how this subject could go that way, even under the best intentions — it goes in a direction you never expected. I don't know if yours did or not, but it could.
Jared Zissu: No, I enjoy those topics. When our editorial team sits down and says we're gonna publish this, a lot of times we'll say, "alright, we're gonna get backlash on this," and I say, as long as we have good intentions, I like — and I think our team enjoys — some controversial topics at times. We could cover plain, non-controversial topics all year and not have any arguing or backlash in the comments, but it wouldn't be as exciting, and I think it's important to cover some of these controversial topics.
Tom Rowland: It's also important to get other people's opinions — you can cater to one group and live in an echo chamber, and there's no discussion, it's just, "yeah, that's the way to go, great article." But if you don't present both sides of it, I don't know that you're progressing toward understanding that there are different sides and different opinions — you have to continue to have discussions and talk, so you can understand what this other person is doing, otherwise you just get really upset. It's like a microcosm of the whole country right now, of people not talking — they don't talk to the people they disagree with, and the next thing you know people are just so mad, and that can happen in fishing too, over these spots, over lots of things. I think you have to present in a way, especially on a social media platform, that's welcoming of other ideas and opinions.
Jared Zissu: Yeah, people can still hide behind their profiles with their opinions on social media, and I think that's what can make it a toxic place at times, but I definitely agree with you.
Tom Rowland: How do you deal with that? That seems like you're putting yourself squarely in the crosshairs of that toxic place at times — sometimes almost on purpose, other times totally accidental, and then there's a reaction you don't expect. How do you deal with that toxic environment, that negativity, and the positivity too?
Jared Zissu: We're lucky that it's not — it feels like me sometimes, but we're not this one influencer that people are calling out. But I'm not gonna lie, there are definitely times negative comments affect me personally, because I'm so attached to the company and the brand. Sometimes we'll just ban people — there are days I have less tolerance than others. If someone wants to be a total jerk and has zero good intentions, sometimes they'll just get a ban, and that's it, they don't get our content anymore. But there are also times where it's okay — people can have opinions, and as long as there's a sense of thought behind that opinion, even if it's against what we're thinking, that's totally fine. If someone's gonna be a jerk for no reason, with no thought behind it, it's nice that we can ban people on these platforms.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, as you see 2021 and beyond coming up, how do you see conservation playing into the type of content you create? We've touched on conservation already, but do you have specific agendas or specific projects that really need to be addressed, or are things being brought to your attention?
Jared Zissu: Yeah, that's a great question. We've brought on two conservation editors — not full-time, but their focus is just conservation — and we're giving them the tools and allocating the right funds for them to put the right amount of time into highlighting these causes, whether it's something that comes up two months from now that Bonefish & Tarpon Trust is fighting for down in the Keys, or if what we've seen with Pebble Mine comes back to haunt us all. So I think, as a voice for the space, and having the privilege of being a voice in the space, it's really high on our priority list — whether we're highlighting an organization of the month, or a specific project, we're gonna continue finding creative ways to share these stories and urge people to take action when the time is right. It's really high on the priority list for us this year. I can't think of anything right now we're in the midst of fighting for — I think Pebble Mine isn't completely over, but we've had some good wins recently, and that was definitely something we were putting attention on.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, that's great. So when you're bringing in a lot of new anglers to the sport, and you have this conservation angle, do you see that new anglers are embracing that and seeing the importance of it right away, or is it a continuing education? Where do newer, younger anglers stand on that?
Jared Zissu: I don't think it's a message that's gonna happen overnight. Maybe for some people they find passion in learning how to protect these environments, but I think creating that connection — to love fly fishing, love the sport, love your local water — that's such a powerful connection we're trying to make first and foremost, and then conveying the message of, "hey, this place you love is in danger," is a much easier message to some of the younger anglers — this is how you can take action. So first and foremost is getting them out on the water and teaching them to love this environment, this water, and these fish, and then telling them how we can protect these places.
Tom Rowland: Nice. Well, that's super important, man — that's incredibly important to continue to grow the sport and get people into fly fishing, and all types of fishing, because fishing and hunting is typically a sport that's passed down, and if it doesn't get passed down — that's one of the beauties of social media, that's a way people can get into the sport, seeing that other people are finding really cool things about it. Maybe it's something they wanna try, and then giving them a real pathway and avenue to learn how to do it — that's super great. And then to wrap the conservation angle around it, I think that's super important.
Tom Rowland: How could people support Flylords, find you, find your films, and everything we've discussed today? Is there, if you don't follow on social media, another way to follow Flylords?
Jared Zissu: Sure. Yeah, so our website, where a lot of these articles are created, is flylordsmag.com — there's still some guy in London with flylords.com who wants $50,000 or something for it, but flylordsmag.com is the site. YouTube is where we're gonna be launching quite a bit of these films, and working on growing that platform — if you Google "Flylords Time" it should pop up on YouTube, or "Flip Pallot Time." Would love for you guys to check that out. And once again, Tom, I really appreciate you shining some light on that — it's funny, I think that's probably half the reason I'm on here, if not more, because you really enjoyed that film. This crazy marketing guy, Gary Vee, is always like, "one piece of content can change your life forever," and I think of the dog-face Ocean Spray TikTok guy, who's famous now for that one viral TikTok with the Fleetwood Mac song in the background. I'm not saying this is that piece of content for us, but it is cool to see this little idea, one conversation, one little opportunity, turn into being on this podcast with you, and sharing more about our story with a larger audience. So thank you so much again for the opportunity.
Tom Rowland: Absolutely.
Jared Zissu: Yeah, really enjoying what you're doing.
Tom Rowland: Yeah, man, thanks, I appreciate it, and I'm enjoying what you guys are doing — you're doing a really good job, and really big compliments on the Time movie. I enjoyed it, and anybody would enjoy it — if you haven't seen it, you don't have to devote a tremendous amount of time to it, it's about seven or eight minutes long, you can watch it instead of scrolling social media. And if you're somebody who likes fly fishing, somebody that Lefty Kreh or Flip Pallot, or the combination of both, were very impactful on your fly fishing, or your wanting to fly fish — both of those guys have probably had as big an impact as hundreds of others combined on getting people into the sport, and showing them the right way to do things, especially Flip, with his message of conservation, going into these super special places, and putting that on ESPN, on Walker's Cay Chronicles. There's a ton of people who watched that every Saturday morning and decided that's not only something they wanna do, but the life they wanna live — it spawned a lot of fishing guides, and it had a big impact on me too. Just a good job. But if you're one of those people, you'll enjoy this movie — I don't know if "movie" is even the right word, since that makes people think it's a two-hour thing. It's a seven-minute piece that's condensed, efficient, and beautiful, and you should check it out for sure.
Jared Zissu: Thanks, Tom.
Tom Rowland: Alright, man. We'll be checking out Flylords, and making all kinds of comments behind the keyboard on our pseudo profiles. But anyway, thanks, Jared, I appreciate it — I like what you're doing, and it was a great conversation.
Jared Zissu: Thank you, Tom. Appreciate it.
Tom Rowland: Alright. See you.
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