Mark Smith: The Exposure Pyramid and the Ethics of Not Interfering

Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 964: Mark Smith

In this episode: the treasure-hunting books that paid for a camera, the moment at 11,000 feet when the exposure pyramid finally clicked, why he lets the crab take the turtle, 300 bald eagles in the Arran Rapids, and the sandhill crane that warned him about the gator — in the exact words spoken.

Cold Open

Tom Rowland: What's going on, everybody? We are live, and we have a fantastic guest today. If you're like me, you love birds, nature, and outstanding photography and video, and that's exactly what our guest brings today. Mark Smith photography is one of my favorite Instagram, accounts. I love his stuff. It is absolutely amazing. And, hopefully, today, we're gonna find out how he gets some of these incredible images that, he so kindly puts on Instagram for us all to look at. It's really amazing. So if you're a fan of Mark Smith, go check out his Instagram right now. You can drop in any kind of questions that you might have, and we try to get to those if we have anybody show up for the live. And if you are a fan of the podcast and you are looking for the long form podcast on YouTube, that has changed. So I wanna make sure everybody is aware of the change. We have moved all the long form to Tom Rowland podcast, full length. There'll be a link in the description below where you can get to that YouTube page. It's brand new. We're starting from scratch because the shorts seem to have messed up everything that we had going on, even though the shorts are doing very well right now. It kind of messed up the long form. So now we are starting from scratch. So if you like the podcast, head over there and subscribe to it, and you will be able to see awesome guests like we have right now. I think there's 365, episodes over there, and then the How to Tuesday lives somewhere else. Anyway, right now we're going to bring in Mark Smith, Mark, how are you?

Mark Smith: I'm great. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: Absolutely, man. I'm really, I'm really a big fan of your work. It's, it's so crystal clear and you just have a, I don't know how you put yourself in the situations to get what you get, but, it's it's really amazing.

From Ghost Writer to Professional Photographer

Tom Rowland: How, how long have you been doing professional photography?

Mark Smith: So, like, the professional label would have come into play around 2017.

Tom Rowland: Okay. And so what were you doing before that?

Mark Smith: Oh, I've done all kinds of stuff. I was, before that, I did a lot of writing, ghost writing. I've written a few books that I was lucky enough to actually become bestsellers on of Wow. Which is kinda yeah. I was a musician for a while in a band too for quite a bit. I'm a very creative individual. So I'm always creating something. So

Tom Rowland: So would we know any of the bands?

Mark Smith: Oh, no. I'd I highly doubt it.

Tom Rowland: How about any of the books?

Mark Smith: Probably not, because they're just kinda kinda weird subjects. Like, the the best sellers of, were on of all things, like, treasure hunting and stuff along the coast here. And, Really? I I was actually quite surprised at how well that was received and how how it kinda took off and, like, you

Tom Rowland: know, the is a popular popular subject. I mean, I spent a lot of time in Key West and, of course, Mel Fisher, and the Atocha was down there, and, I think that inspired a lot of people to kind of wonder if they could find treasure themselves. Mhmm. In your writing, did you I'm sure you covered Mel Fisher and what he had what what happened with his treasure and

Mark Smith: Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. I wrote several books on the subject, and they were self published. And, you know, one was enough successful enough to make me wanna really, what I would say, try and and kinda do kinda like the treasure hunting or metal detecting bible, so to speak. And that one was the one that kind of took off and went mad. And at the time, I didn't I didn't understand why it was so popular. But now that I can go back in time and look, and when I published it that year, there were a bunch of reality shows on cable television for treasure hunting. And everybody wanted to figure it out, and they went to Amazon and Amazon I was lucky enough. Amazon just kinda served them up all of my content. And

Tom Rowland: Wow. Yeah.

Mark Smith: It it's actually kind of one of the stepping stones to me doing photography because it did a couple of things. One, it it gave me the freedom to, be financially stable and focus full time on photography and not really have to worry about making any money on it. So I could do it as a as a passion and and really learn it. But it also gave you the confidence that my voice was something that people connected with and my storytelling ability was something they connected with. And that kinda helped me do my YouTube channel, which is how this all kinda started and went just on its you know, snowballed from that point on.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's that's that's awesome, man. I read a book called Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea. Do you do are you familiar with that one? It was off in North No. And ship was really, really deep. Everyone thought it was gonna be very shallow, but the people that found it found it really, really deep. It was a fascinating book, though. I think Okay, man. I think I like I like the treasure hunting because, typically, it it brings in a lot of the history and why it would be there and why it was found there and what what would have happened to to leave it there, like, the Atocha and all that. That's that's fascinating, all that story.

Mark Smith: So Yeah. I I did I did a lot of that too, like, across the entire country. We I traveled at one point, in an RV, and we we did that as we went around. And it was actually a really cool way to teach my son history because I could like, history from a book isn't always interesting to to kids. Right. But you could go dig up some relic and then have them kinda reverse, look up what that relic was, why it was there, and all that kind of stuff. It made him a lot more interested in history. So it was a cool, cool experience for sure.

Tom Rowland: How many kids do you have?

Mark Smith: Two. I have a 26 year old son and a 19 year old daughter.

Tom Rowland: Wow. And so when when you were doing that in the RV, did you take both your kids or just your son or both?

Sell Everything, Buy an RV, and Just Go

Mark Smith: Both. Yeah. My, my late wife had the idea to do this, and, she came to me one day and said, let's sell everything we own, get an RV, and just go. And I told her she was crazy, but, okay. Let's do it. And we did, and it was easily one of the best experiences I've had in my life. We did it for about nine months total. And and when we got into Western Colorado, we fell in love with the San Juan Mountains and stayed there for about three years. And yep. And that's where that's where the photography really started, I would say, over there. Even though I had all of my knowledge of Florida because I'm a native Floridian, and I've spent most of my time outdoors around all of these animals and fishing. So I kinda understood them on a different level, I think, than most people. So when we left Colorado and came back to Florida, I had kind of a fresh set of eyes for photography, but I had all of this knowledge on all of the local wildlife and the two paired up really well together.

Tom Rowland: Man. Yeah. So when you left for the the RV trip, did you have a a was there a a route that you were going to do, like, head to Alaska? Or, like, what what was the plan leaving? Or just you you go and see what happens.

Mark Smith: Yeah. Just go. There was there was no plan but to go west and and and see where it went. Like, the the initial idea was we were gonna go along the Gulf Coast and go all the way around through Louisiana, Mississippi down into Texas. And that's what we did. And when we got into Texas, we literally shot straight up and went up through, you know, Texas and New Mexico and ended up in Colorado. But the cool thing about Colorado was when we made it a home base, it was close enough for us to venture out to other places like Washington State or Oregon or, like Wyoming and the Tetons. Like, you could do that in a day drive. So it was kind of a cool home base to experience more of the West.

Tom Rowland: Nice. That's where I started my guy career was in the Tetons. Jackson, Wyoming. Beautiful Beautiful place. Gonna miss you're not gonna miss on photography there. No. Unbelievable. I mean, like a paradise for photography painting or anything. So you say that that that kind of, was was the, motivation to get into photography. So you weren't into photography when you were before you hit Colorado?

Yankee Boy Basin at 11,000 Feet

Mark Smith: I was. I I have taken photos my whole life, but, I think the passion really started then because of all of the the new kind of stimulus that I was getting, you know, the the the new animals, the new birds, the new people, places, foods, and then all of the backdrop stuff. It was, like, so overwhelming, stimulating. I wanted to capture it all because it was all new to me. I was like like a little kid in a candy store running around out there experiencing all this stuff. And it really set me on fire, I would say, and and pushed me to really try to understand, everything about photography on the technical level. And I have I've told this story a few times, but I have a very vivid moment when kind of the technical aspects all made sense to me and clicked. And I was in a high mountain, valley in Western Colorado called Yankee Boy Basin. It's almost 11,000 feet up. So I think if I remember right, there's, like, a third less oxygen. I I could be quoting that wrong. But there's there's definitely a a hit on your oxygen intake when you're up that high. But the the place is beautiful. Like, there's, like, wildflowers. This isn't the summer. Wildflowers, like, up to your waist of every color. There's all kinds of little hummingbirds and pikas and snow capped peaks in the background, brooks, and all this stuff. It's just overwhelmingly beautiful. And I was sitting up there photographing hummingbirds one day, and it kinda just all made sense to me, the the relation of what the three main settings on your camera would be. And I'd I joke about it and say, I don't know if it was the lack of oxygen to my brain that kinda put me in this place or the overwhelming beauty or a combination of both, but it but it was it was literally like somebody just came down with poop and put all that info on my brain and went, oh, I get it now. And then it was just kind of a fine tuning granularly from that point on based on whatever it was I was shooting and the light that was given to me at the moment.

Tom Rowland: Wow. So the three main settings, can you tell us about about that? Like, what Yeah. Yeah. So Or understanding that?

Why the Exposure Triangle Is Flawed

Mark Smith: Yeah. So there there's actually a a teaching method people use called the exposure triangle. And I personally think it's flawed, but I'll I'll save why in just a minute. But the three settings would form a triangle. It would be your shutter speed or and then the aperture of the camera and the lens and then your ISO. So those three things change the amount of light coming into your camera, and they all have certain side effects based on how you choose to do them. So you you basically have a certain amount of light coming in, and you have to kinda divvy it up to these three places and understand what changing them will do to the final, image, and if it's what you want. So understanding how those three work together is very important. But, again, like, this exposure triangle that is very popular and taught would put each one of these at a point. Like, your ISO would be the top, and then your aperture would be maybe the far left, and then your shutter would be the far right. And it I think it could be any way around. But the the real missing piece would be, it should be an exposure pyramid with a point on the top. And the point on the top would be you as the photographer because you would influence how all of these things change and your distance between you and your subject would also regulate how you could make all of these changes. So there's, like, a missing piece in this teaching platform that everybody's taught that needs to be, interpreted in a different way, and that missing piece is you, the photographer, because you, again, like, your the distance between you and your subject will, can can be can help influence these settings if you're constrained on light.

Tom Rowland: Right. I like that because it it brings a human element to it. And when you Yeah. It was one of my questions that I was gonna ask you is, like, where are we going with cameras and the the the auto settings and and just being able to, like is cameras keep getting better and better. They're they're they're quickly even your phone camera is so quickly able to to do a a way better job than we used to be able to do. I don't know. Very, very quickly, it can take a pretty nice picture. So Sure. As that continues to get better and better and better, where does the human element sit in that? Like, when you just describe that, it sounds like when you put yourself at the top of that of that pyramid that you're you're thinking there will always be a human element of this in your photography, I guess. But what about just a regular person that picks up a phone or a or a really nice camera is and and it becomes more and more, you know, automatic? I I think that

Mark Smith: that I think that really depends on the individual and how they see the world around them. You know, photography is a is a great tool for teaching you to see things in a very different way. As you start to take photos, you really start to understand light and shadow and reflections and all of these other things that you normally just shut off. Like, you don't pay any attention to them as you go about your day. So I I think it really depends on the person. You know, I'm a big advocate of using your phone. I use my phone constantly to take photos. And, again, it it the the phone is great at taking photos, but as a human, you you still have to try to capture this window or this story or or this emotional moment in a way that is compelling. So you you you still have, like, your job to do as a photographer even though the equipment has gotten better and easier. I think what it does is it it actually brings the the hobby, if you wanna call it, of photography into more people and and gives people more confidence to to take better photos.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. And when it comes to a phone, like, how are you using the phone? I mean, are are is that what some of the some of what we're seeing on Instagram is coming from phone? I don't know. It looks amazing.

Mark Smith: Some some of it is, but not the majority is not. Like, as a photographer, I I know immediately the difference in the two. You know? But, you know, the old saying is the best camera is the one you have in your hand, and sometimes that's your phone. Yeah. And knowing knowing how to use your phone, you can still capture some amazing stuff. I, I just got back from a trip to Thailand. I was there for a couple weeks, and I was on some of the more exotic islands out there, the Phi Phi Island chains. And there are a lot of cats there that they would call community cats. They're not feral. They're not stray, but they kind of roam the streets freely as they want to. Yeah. There's that's one of the guys right there. If you can see that. Yeah. And that was all with my iPhone, all of those photos. But that was in the moment. I, you know, I didn't have my camera there. So all I had was my phone. So I I made the best I could out of taking photos of that cat. That would not be a phone. That's that's different.

The Cat, the Ghost Crab, and the Hate

Tom Rowland: I saw another video. If you scroll down a little bit, Jake, there was one of it might have been that cat or another one that was after a, a crab.

Mark Smith: Oh, the ghost crab. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: This is incredible. I mean, just the way, like, the way that you use the light here, and you are positioned in the right place or if you moved or if it was just perfect or you're using the the settings on your on your phone. But this video is I mean, not your phone, on your real camera, but, I mean, it's just so cool. Like

Mark Smith: Yeah. The the that that all was a surprise. I I was I was photographing this cat on the beach, and it's it's a younger cat. And I was having a good time photographing it, and then it just started digging and and dug out this ghost crab and kinda started playing with it. I was very surprised to to see it dig as far down as it did and and, you know, try to get this crab and and to play with it. And the you know, I was just in the right place at the right time to capture this moment. And interestingly enough, it's a very polarizing video. There's a lot of people who do not like it because I sat back and let the cat, in their words, torture this crab. So there's a lot of people that have given me a lot of hate for this, for this moment and especially how I framed it because I found humor in it that the cat dug up a crab and started playing with it. So, it's a it's a weird thing sometimes.

Document It, Do Not Interfere

Tom Rowland: Seems like a natural occurrence.

Mark Smith: Yeah. That that's that's the thing. That's one of the hardest things to do as a wildlife photographer, and a lot of people don't agree with this, but is you you're there to document this and not interfere, with with nature and and the way that things are playing out. I have another video where where this was another very polarizing thing where I was filming a a sea turtle on the coast of Florida that had hatched, and it was making its way there it is. Yeah. It was making its way down to the beach. And, ironically, the same kind of crab just shows up and and lifts this turtle up and runs away with it. And, you know, this blew my mind that this was happening. And I've I've experienced this before with these with the turtles and and the crabs, and there's a lot of birds that prey on them too. And you can't you can't keep up if you want to to to try to prevent this from happening. It it's it's sad to see and it's hard to watch, but it's part of the process. And to be fair, the crab deserves to eat too. So you can't you can't get in the way and and interfere with that stuff, but a lot of people will condemn you for that. So

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's a real, you know, question for for, like I guess it's a an ethics question. It's like, is is it better to interfere in something like that? But is interfering, that's the wrong place too. So you're gonna have some people that that understand the wild world, like fishermen, hunters, and people that are outside a lot, they understand that's natural part of the world. That crab eats turtles. This isn't the first time that crab's eaten a turtle.

Mark Smith: That's right. So you're

Tom Rowland: just documenting it. It. You're not stepping in. You're not doing anything. You're just there, and you happen to be in the right place to get that shot. Yeah. Well, are you supposed to intervene? Because that's not that's that's not right either. I mean, that's what our national

Mark Smith: parks are.

Tom Rowland: Our national parks are an area where you're not supposed to intervene. It's supposed to happen in its natural way. And you if you photograph that, well, that's the that's nature. It's like a wolf taking down a taking down a a an elk or an elk cat.

Mark Smith: That's right. Yeah. It's That's natural. That's right. Yeah. And I've I've been to Africa a few times, recently, and that play is really hard when you're in Africa, you know, watching a a lion take down a a warthog or a buffalo. It it's not easy to watch in any way, shape, or form, but you you can't interfere if this is the way that this stuff works. And as much as you don't like the idea of this animal dying, the lion has to eat too, and it has cubs to feed as well. So it's all part of the big circle, you know, part of the process.

Tom Rowland: There's also beauty in a predator. Like, a predator is good at what they are doing. They're they're good at it, and there's beauty in that. There's beauty in watching an animal that is the a cheetah chase down something in super slow motion. That's awesome to see that. I mean, yeah. It is. It it kills something, but that's it has to kill something every day.

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Smith: It can't it can't go to, you know, a fast food place and get food. It's kinda work hard. How do you do it? And survive.

Tom Rowland: You have a massive social media following. How has, how how do you deal with that negativity? Do you I mean, you're gonna get it one way or another. You're gonna get it if you intervene, you're gonna get it if you don't intervene. So

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: You know? And and you're creating this thing that is so beautiful, and and your work is so good that it's gonna draw a lot of eyeballs. And you're it is gonna be split fifty fifty, seventy thirty. I don't know. There's gonna be a split.

Mark Smith: Yeah. For sure.

Tom Rowland: How do you deal with things that seem negative to you or or attacks? Or what do you do?

Mark Smith: I, you know, I I try to look at, like, step outside of it for myself and try to look at, you know, both points of view. And I'm I'm usually pretty good at doing that and and understanding, both sides. And then I I will try to just kinda make my decision on what I think is right, and then that's kinda where I just stay. And if they wanna argue, they can argue, but, I typically don't, continue at that point. Like, the cats, it was a the cats were a good example. I was taking a lot of photos of those cats, and there were some people that were attacking me for it, calling me unethical. And I thought about this for a little while. You know, these these cats ultimately, this is the decision I came to. These cats did not ask to be there. You know? So I should not demonize them for their existence, and I didn't think it was right. I thought, if anything, you should be able to show their character and their perseverance, and, you know, inspire people to maybe wanna do something about it. And that was the stance I took. And at that point, I quit talking to people that were negative about it and just didn't even pay attention to them.

What Is a Pelican? The Question That Built the Channel

Tom Rowland: How about your, your social media following? Would did you start some of the other photographers that I that I know and I'm friends with were resistant to get on Instagram at first to share their work. And and then once they did, it was a positive experience for them, I think. What was your journey to this large following that you have? Were you how did you decide that you were gonna start in Instagram, and how what what's the journey been to grow to where you are today?

Mark Smith: So I started actually with YouTube, at the advice of my son, who at the time, I think, was 16 or so, maybe 17. And, I would go out here in Florida, and I would film a lot of birds doing what they do. And I would come home, and I would show it all to him and, my late wife and my daughter. And my son would say, you know, this is absolutely amazing, dad. You need to make a YouTube video about this. And at the time, I didn't really think anybody would be interested, but I made a video. It was mildly successful. It's kinda like the same process I took with the, you know, writing the books. And because it was mildly successful, I thought, you know, what if I actually put some time and effort into this and try to make it a a good thing where I kinda can bring these people along the way with me and introduce them to all of this wildlife that they've probably never experienced before. And it kinda grew from there. And, you know, I had some epiphany moments during all of this where I realized that was, like, the key for me. There's a lot of people who don't get to experience this stuff. And when you get to experience it in everyday like I do, like, with a lot of the wildlife, it's hard to understand that there's a, you know, 90% of people out there. And, like, one of the big moments I had for that was when I was in Colorado. There was a young girl that was working in the deli, and I realized I I put her at maybe 20. I realized she has probably never left this little town. And I asked her one day when when she was, like, giving me my stuff, have you ever seen a pelican before? And her response was, what's a pelican? And I was like, oh, wow. This is okay. I I get it. Like, you know, I can take people along this this journey. So YouTube took off, and then everything else became secondary. And now I think Instagram has overtaken YouTube by quite a bit, just just, I guess, the way that it was. But it took a it's it took a long time. You know, it wasn't an instant thing. I, let's see. Let me think. So I started YouTube in 2017, and I think it took me five years to get to a 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. And I was doing Instagram at the same time, and Instagram was slowly growing. And then once I hit a 100,000 subscribers on YouTube within a year, it was up to 1,700,000. So it just kinda snowballed. And then, Instagram was the same way. Instagram was a little bit behind, YouTube at the time, and then it kinda snowballed as well and and did its own thing.

The Rick Rubin Rule

Mark Smith: And I I you know, so many people will ask me, you know, what is the key to being successful on on social media? And, you know, to be honest, I think a lot of it is a crapshoot. Like, there's there's there's a lot of people that have amazing content, and it doesn't get the eyes on it that it deserves, and they don't they don't get the recognition they deserve. So I'm not entirely sure, but I do know that I subscribe to, what a famous music producer, Rick Rubin, says, and and that is if you produce whatever form of art it is you're producing in its purest form for yourself first, then it will be the purest and best that you can do, and everybody else will kinda fall in place after that. And that's for me, that's what I've always done. I've always tried to capture these moments that amaze me and teach me something and then pass that on to others. And, that seems to be working pretty well. So

Tom Rowland: That's that's awesome. Did you read his book? I'm sure you probably did.

Mark Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I asked book.

Tom Rowland: I really I really liked it. I thought Yeah. It's different. Yeah. It's it's different. And, but I think he's he's really an amazing guy how he has spanned so many different genres of music. And, basically, what he says in podcast and in that book, I guess, of of all the different things that I've listened to him talk is that he he's really just it's not about the music. It's about him getting the artist to feel comfortable and getting the artist to give the best of themselves. In whatever aspect of music it is. And then he's pulling something out of them that no one else was able to do.

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: And that's what's successful. And that's what's so interesting in this world that we're living in of AI and and so many different directions that we could possibly go. It's like Rick Rubin is, like, no. It's a human thing. He's getting something from this person that's not gonna come from a computer. It's not gonna come from something else. It's within that person. And another person needs to somehow inspire or motivate or make that person feel comfortable enough to let that out to the world. And

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: I don't know. He's he's he I I really, really like him, and I really, really like that book. And

Mark Smith: I did too. And I think you're right that he's he's kinda proven himself because he's done this through many genres of music, not just one. So, like yeah. He he's hit on a a a key element that is crucial, I think, to the success of art, and that that's it. And I think my favorite was the, the story he told about the Chili Peppers when the singer came down and was reading their song under the bridge to him, and he said, what is that? That's that's amazing. And the singer's like, oh, that's not that's not a Chili Peppers song. He's like, what are you talking about? No. You guys gotta make this. And and that was kinda the catapult for that band. He he Right. Exactly what you said. He got them comfortable enough to to share that side, and it changed everything.

Tom Rowland: Right. And so that's did you feel like that before you read that from Rick Rubin? Or did the was that just, like, more justification for how you were already feeling? Or, like, what was your

Mark Smith: I think more justification and, more confidence that, I was on the right path.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Yeah. Interesting.

Success Is Freedom

Tom Rowland: So the the YouTube and the the Instagram are are interesting because you you've said before, like, people ask you about being successful on social media. I would ask you, what's your definition of being successful on social media? Like, what is success on social media?

Mark Smith: Well, for most people, that's defined by a number next to your name. Well, not old money.

Tom Rowland: Right? Like like, some platforms pay, but then some, you get a lot of views and you don't get paid.

Mark Smith: Yeah. This is this is true.

Tom Rowland: Your personal your personal, definition of success on social media would be interesting.

Mark Smith: So I would say my my personal definition of success as as a whole, Social media or not is freedom, and the freedom to do what you want and when you want. I think that's for me, that's key, and that's something that I fought very hard for for many, many years. And that's what I think I cherish most out of all of this is the the freedom to to do what I do, when I do it, when I want to do it. That's that's, very powerful.

Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, that's the most powerful. So if if if a young creative person, not necessarily a photographer, not necessarily a musician, a creative person looks to you for inspiration and ask you, how do I achieve that freedom? What do you say to them?

Mark Smith: Oh, I I think, again, it's kind of the old cliche. Work very, very hard at your passion, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. And and you're gonna and you're gonna go through, like, for lack of a better term, you're gonna go through a bunch of bullshit to get there. You have to. That's just part of the process of life. And, all of those little things that might be holding you back are actually valuable lessons that you can glean little bits from to help you later. So

Tom Rowland: That's interesting. That's interesting. And then, you know, I had this I had this one guy on, and I I remember, he actually had a YouTube page, and and he he also was talking about how much he valued freedom and how much he, but he went a different direction with it. And this guy's name was Rick Moore. He has a a YouTube page. It's all about sailing. Sailing sophisticated lady is what his very popular YouTube page, and he goes all over the world. But his his, his he went straight to no debt. Like, the first thing like, you could have all of these things about, you know, you know, working hard and and, working through all the negativity and people not appreciating what you're doing, and you can work through all of that. But you're never even gonna get there if you're saddled with debt and you don't even have the freedom to experiment, to have any white space to to say, you know, you just gotta work two jobs all the time because Mhmm. You weren't disciplined with your spending or something happened, and you're now saddled with debt. So now there's no white space to think, no white space to create, no white space to experiment, no white space to to dream. Right? Because Yeah. You're you're saddled. And that that that was I thought that was pretty interesting, especially coming from him who had kind of moved in that direction. And now he's going the ultimate of freedom being on this Yeah. Sailing boat that is perfect that is, totally self sufficient. Like, water, liquor, solar. It's it's powered by the wind, and he's gonna try to do a whole, circumnavigation kind of thing. But I hadn't thought about him in in years. That's interesting. It was it's it was a similar similar kind of thing of freedom. So, when when you're able to do anything that you wanna do, you're able to go and shoot what you want when you want, how much of that is travel time? And it sounds like you've been to Thailand recently. You've been where else did you say, Africa a couple times recently. Mhmm. So what's on your list, and how much you know, if you were to blue sky it with your family and everything, how much would you travel compared to where you're traveling now?

Mark Smith: Oh, I I travel quite a bit now. I think it would be a permanent thing. Yeah. Twenty four seven. Yeah. I, you know, having the experience of traveling in the RV was was fantastic for a couple of reasons. One, the freedom you get from shedding all of your belongings is another one of those things that many people aren't aware of. Like, when you have a lot of stuff, a lot of that stuff can kinda be stressful. And when, you know, we got rid of everything, I couldn't believe how freeing that was. I was like, wow. This is actually I feel a whole weight off of my shoulders and and, like, I just feel like I can just go do whatever I want. Like and that's what we did. But but it also taught me the importance of travel and how it can expand, your mind and and yourself, you know, meeting different people. Even, I mean, just traveling across The United States, it it's a big place. And from state to state that, like, you know from being in Wyoming, people are different, cultures are different, foods are different, everything is different. And I think that's one of the the best things you can do for yourself as a human being is to experience all of these things and and understand more about us as humans. And it's funny because, you know, I go to all these places to photograph, animals, but at the heart of it, every single time, there is a human element or a human story that is the most memorable every single time without question. And, it's it's very powerful. And it's also a good way to develop a network of friends all over the world, which is also fascinating. So yeah.

Tom Rowland: It is. It, so do you have some places that when you when you decide where you wanna go, are you deciding that you wanna go there because it's an interesting place, or are you deciding that you wanna go there because they have an interesting animal that you wanna photograph that you may not have photographed yet? Or is it maybe both? I don't know.

Mark Smith: Both. Yes. A combination of both. When I went to Thailand, I just wanted to see Thailand. I I didn't necessarily wanna do a lot of photography, but the the itch to create got me with the, like I said, this the, community cats there. I ended up doing my thing with the cats. And then I met a lot of great people there too who, who knew me and helped guide me around in some places. And they knew me from social media, and they took me to some amazing places to photograph some birds. And that's an that's also a really cool thing is to see the pride people have in their locations and their homes and wanting to share their lives and everything with you. That's just fascinating.

A 12-Foot Wingspan in Greece

Mark Smith: So that that was a interesting thing as well, and I I just got back, I think, three or four days ago from Greece, but that was a trip solely to photograph, these Dalmatian pelicans, the largest pelicans in the world. Those are And that was

Tom Rowland: Pelicans.

Mark Smith: Oh, there's that it's unbelievable. So how big are those?

Tom Rowland: I didn't I couldn't get a, a I've never seen one of those in person. I've never been to Greece. But how big are those compared to our pelicans in Florida?

Mark Smith: Oh, the brown pelicans. I think a brown pelican could probably fit inside the Dalmatian pelican's pouch.

Tom Rowland: I was wondering that it looked like a very large bird from Instagram, but I don't have anything to there's no scale, you know, to to bigger than ours or or what. But a white our white pelicans are big, but that shot right there, that just looks to me like a large bird, a really

Mark Smith: big bird. It's massive. They they can, be up to 30 pounds in a 12 foot wingspan. Cool. So, yes, it's a big bird. Definitely huge. And it's a it's a cool place. I I need to educate myself a little bit more on on the birds there. The but, they, they're there in the winter in breeding colors and which you can see here, the their pouches get all lit up, and they get the the fancy feathers, you know, to compete for mates and stuff.

Tom Rowland: So how do you

Mark Smith: animals, though.

Tom Rowland: That that's a bird that you that you wanted to travel for.

Mark Smith: It's irresistible. Yeah. I mean, look look at that thing.

Tom Rowland: It's so cool looking.

Mark Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I I knew the moment I saw those birds that I wanted to go photograph one, so it was a no brainer to me. And, the the guy that I took that I hired to, to take me out was he even said, you know, some people questioned. Are you coming all the way here to photograph the pelicans?

Tom Rowland: And I

Mark Smith: was like, absolutely.

Tom Rowland: If was that a surprise to him?

Mark Smith: I don't think so. I I think he understood.

Tom Rowland: So when you turn out

Mark Smith: Go ahead.

Tom Rowland: When you travel, do you travel alone? Or do No.

Mark Smith: I I

Tom Rowland: with you?

Mark Smith: Yeah, I usually travel with other people.

Tom Rowland: And, like, other photographers or, like, friends?

Mark Smith: Sometimes a little of both.

Tom Rowland: Uh-huh. That's cool. Does do your kids like to travel with you?

Mark Smith: My son my son will go with me, a lot of the times. A lot of the things that we go for travel is we teach a lot of people photography, and he's a good a good backup to come with me.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And so he's a photographer himself?

Mark Smith: Yeah. Yeah. No. It's not his passion, but he but he understands it, and he understands all of the the animals and stuff.

Tom Rowland: That's cool. Does he have the travel bug?

Mark Smith: Yes. My my son

Tom Rowland: got too, and he graduated from Montana State, and he went around the world. He went and spent a, a couple months living in a van in New Zealand, and then he had Fiji, Vietnam, Singapore, Japan. I don't know. I'm forgetting a couple of other places, I I think. But that was that's what he wanted to do and and did it on no money and Mhmm. Just saw so many different places. And and his perspective is quite quite different when he comes back, you know. Like, it's a great thing to do, but he got the two he got the travel bug. Now he Yeah. Travel all over. But that's that's, it's travel is is awesome.

300 Bald Eagles in the Arran Rapids

Tom Rowland: What do you think, the hardest thing or one of the hardest things that you've ever tried to shoot would be?

Mark Smith: I would say, so far, the the bald eagles in Canada.

Tom Rowland: Really? What made them hard to shoot?

Mark Smith: Well, you gotta kinda understand the whole environment there. You're you're photographing these eagles who are taking advantage of a natural phenomena where there's a massive tidal surge that creates these very dangerous ocean rapids, which is just weird in and of itself. And these ocean rapids at a certain time of year will force fish to the surface, from great depths, and the fish basically get the bends or barotrauma. You know, their air bladders fill with gas, and they get stuck on the surface, and they're gonna die, and they can't go back down. And the Eagles know this, and they've been doing this for probably longer than humans have been there. The challenging part is you're like I said, you're in a boat. You're in the middle of these rapids. You have a guy that's navigating you, so you have to put all of your trust in your in your boat captain that you're gonna be safe so that you can do your thing and try to, capture these amazing things that, videos and pictures of the Eagles. But the Eagles also at times come in at 50 miles an hour, and at times there are as many as 300 of them around you in this huge epic feeding frenzy. So singling them out is very challenging, and then getting the ones that are coming in so fast is very challenging in the new deal. And like I said, with the the elements of the water and the boat shifting under your feet also makes it challenging. But it's also, I would say, one of the most rewarding because it's such a spectacle to be put into the middle of. I I the only way I can ever describe it to people is if you've ever been to the beach and somebody throws, like, some food into the air and it rains, gulls, it's like that, but it's eagles. And these eagles are they're big. And when they come very, very close, you don't realize how big they are. Some of them have eight foot wingspans, and the sounds of them flying right beside you literally sounds like a jet ripping through the air just as they come by. It's amazing. It really, really is, and it's overwhelming. Yeah. I would've fun.

Tom Rowland: With that many. I can't imagine 300 bald eagles around, and they're swooping in and out like that because, like, we hear that with frigate birds and stuff offshore. I mean, they come in, like especially when they come in behind you, and it's like all of a sudden, you know, you just hear this incredible sound. You're it's like it's almost like a a jet coming in just like it's crazy. Yeah.

Mark Smith: Yeah. Exactly.

Tom Rowland: You've never heard that before. It, you know, it takes you off guard, but 300 of those things around you has to be that's amazing. So but you say that's, like like, that's the most challenging thing or one of the one of the harder things. That's the first thing that came to mind. Is it because of the boat rocking or because there's so many that you you're trying to pick the one that that's that's about to dive or like, what made that with all of your experience, what made that one of the more challenging things? Like, I know

Mark Smith: you All of the all of the above. Like, the, you know, the boat moving underneath your feet, you can't you know, you learn to have some sea legs. You know? If you've been on a boat a while, you it it becomes natural. And I've been on boats my whole life, so that part wasn't as challenging. Picking out the birds, which ones to focus on takes a couple of days to understand their their patterns and their behaviors, at least for me, and then I can pick them up pretty quickly. I would say the hardest part is the speed at which they come in at this place. They're very, very fast. And when they're very fast and they're very close, it's extremely difficult to keep them in the frame and move at the same pace as them.

Tom Rowland: That's what I would think.

Mark Smith: That's the challenge. Yeah. For sure. You're

Tom Rowland: able on your on your videos. I mean, they are dead center. Is that, like, can you edit that to to help out with that, or you is that one

Mark Smith: dead center? That you you can somewhat. So most of the videos you see of mine are also eight times slow motion, which is, hugely helpful for many reasons. But it also when you when you play them in slow motion, it any kind of exaggerated movement is slowed down, and it's easier to view. It also gives you a window into behavior that you can't understand because it happens so quickly. So as a photographer, you know, that was one of the main things I learned about shooting video was I was learning so much about my subject. I could tell the subtle little movements that meant they were gonna do what they were gonna do. And then I also learned my own mistakes. Like, if you over pan and it's a one second over pan and it's eight times slow motion, when you watch it back, it's eight seconds long. So your mistakes are very glaring, and it's, it's easy to see where you're making those mistakes so that you can kind of tighten it up. But as far as fixing it in post, there's only so much you can do, to stabilize footage. I mean Mhmm. You have to have it somewhat centered somewhat. And I think the main mistake a lot of people make is they move too quickly. You can't you you have to everything has to be slow and exaggerated. All of your movements, your pans, all of that, you you can't be jumping around really quickly. That's that makes for not good footage.

The Eagle Video With 235 Million Views

Tom Rowland: So when you when you really nail it, you you obviously know that right away, and you have a video just really take off. What what's the biggest video ever for you?

Mark Smith: It's a eagle video from that place that I got this past summer. I think it's, like, 235,000,000 views, I think.

Tom Rowland: So why do you think that one popped like that?

Mark Smith: Oh, it, it's easy to see why. It it it was exceptional in in the sense of what had happened. So we were in the same place we always are, and a big strong wind came in, later in the day. So the light was really soft, And the strong wind was keeping the eagles more stationary and aloft as opposed to coming down quick. And I saw this one coming right at me, and this big gust of wind pushed him. And he just kinda hovered in front of me. And he literally hovered in front of me, dipped down in front of me, grabbed this fish, and he this they don't normally submerge themselves, but this guy, like, he went up to here and just his wings are sticking up like this, and he slowly rises out of the water and flies right at me. And then because of the way that they do their thing there, they often eat on the wings. So as he's flying at me, he lifts that fish up to his mouth and just swallows it whole, eyeballing me the whole time directly into the camera. And I knew the moment I witnessed all of that, I'm praying that my camera is doing its thing. And, I knew the moment that I got that, that that would be the one where that would be a good video, I should say. And and it sure was.

Tom Rowland: This is it right here. Right? This is it. No.

Mark Smith: No. If you're on my Instagram, it should be pinned all the way up at the top. That's a similar one, though.

Tom Rowland: Jake Jake will find it. He'll he'll find

Mark Smith: it out with a pen. It should be pinned all the way up at the top under yeah. There it is. I see it on the left. That's the one. Yeah. That's the one where he just kinda gingerly comes down and submerges himself.

Tom Rowland: That's amazing.

Mark Smith: Yeah. And then swallows that thing whole as it comes right out at us. And, yeah, that was an amazing experience.

Tom Rowland: Look at that. And what is that fish that it's eating?

Mark Smith: It's a hake fish, h a k e. That's the largest or second largest biomass in that area, and that's the fish that are migrating through that channel that get caught in those upwelling currents. And it's amazing to see the the guides there that that, know this area. They know it well, and they know exactly what velocity the tide needs to be for this to start happening. And so, you know, we'll head out at that time, but there's an island full of eagles. And when you look at it, it looks like that you're looking at it like Christmas trees with little white heads everywhere. There'll be, like, 500 eagles on this island, and they will see the first fish coming up. The water is pretty clear. You can see, I don't know, about 25 feet down. They will see the fish rising from down there, and they all come off of the island at one time. It's like somebody flicks a switch and suddenly, boom, there it is. It's chaos all around you, and it can it can last fifteen minutes or it can last four hours. I've I've seen both. So it's unbelievable. It really is.

Tom Rowland: That's wild.

Mark Smith: And then sometimes, like, to top it off, sometimes you're in the middle of this and orcas will come by. So it's like, what do we do? Do we look at the orcas or do we look at the eagles? And so then you have a decision to make. So it's it's always entertaining for sure.

Tom Rowland: That's amazing. That and Yeah. And this is like you said Canada, but, like Yeah. Columbia, Canada or, like, where

Mark Smith: Yeah. North of North Of Vancouver Island and the Discovery Islands. Yeah. The little tiny island called Stuart Island. The, the rapids are pretty well known.

The 50-Foot Whirlpool and the Submarine

Mark Smith: It's the Arran Rapids, and they're they're the second most dangerous rapids, you know, ocean rapids in the world. I don't know what the first is, but I have a good idea that it's one that's right around there that we avoid called Dent Rapids because it will create a 50 foot vortex whirlpool every time that's just there

Tom Rowland: Oh, no. For

Mark Smith: yeah. It's it's kinda eerie. You can find it on YouTube, like, the Dent Rapid Vortex, and you can see some people trying to drive around it in boats. But there's a place there where you can climb up high on a mountain during this time, and you can see straight down into the vortex and see the bottom. It's just it's otherworldly. Like, when you see it, you're like this. This doesn't look real. That is just Crazy, crazy stuff.

Tom Rowland: Wonder I guess it's it right here. I wonder what Yeah. The bottom structure looks like that is creating that. Like, that is such a bizarre thing. I don't even wanna know why you would that guy's gotta be pretty confident in his in

Mark Smith: his best

Tom Rowland: to be that guy.

Mark Smith: That's that's crazy. Yeah. There's a there's a story that I was told by the, owner of the lodge that, there's a lot of very wealthy and affluent people around there, and one of the guys decided they wanted to see what the structure was like, like, what you're asking. So they got a a sub, and they put the sub in and it, like, I wanna say it when the tide wasn't crazy, but I could be getting the story wrong. And they vanished, and everybody thought they were dead. And they popped up, like, really, really far away and said that, oh my god. It was the most craziest thing that they had ever experienced. When they got down at depth, There were upwellings and currents that they could not control, and they just got they got shot through this wild ride, and they thought they were gonna die.

Tom Rowland: That's just those wild ride. That's what it would be in in Disney World, I guess.

Mark Smith: Yeah. So they they weren't able to document much other than, you know, probably elevated heart rates.

Tom Rowland: I guess so. I guess so.

The Sandhill Crane That Warned Him About the Gator

Tom Rowland: So have you ever had a a an encounter while you're while you're doing any of this traveling where you thought you were near death?

Mark Smith: No.

Tom Rowland: Hopefully, not ever. Hopefully, not ever. Not yet.

Mark Smith: No. I mean, I've had I've had some interesting encounters with, you know, alligators in in Florida. They they can be kinda sneaky. I can't I can't think I I think, yeah, that would be the closest I've had to an altercation would be with an alligator. I I at one point, I was following a a family of sandhill cranes, and I was documenting them. And this is the it's a quite an interesting story, but as long as I won't tell the whole story. But at one point, I broke one of the rules. Like, as a Floridian, one of the things that I was taught as a young, boy was if you're gonna be close to the waterline, don't have a low profile. That was, like, rule number one, or rule number two. Rule number one was probably just stay out of freshwater if you can avoid it. Rule number two is if you're gonna be down at the water's edge, don't have a low profile. Rule number three was never swim with your dog. Those things would would get you in trouble, from my understanding. So I broke one of those rules on this day. I had a low profile. I was laying down with, a body of water behind me, and I was photographing a sandhill crane with its baby in front of me so I could get this low angle. And it was the I knew them well enough. It was the female and the chick. And the male came in, and he, like, was acting really strange. He landed in front of me and was acting very aggressive, like, coming at me, throwing his wings out, making all kinds of noise. And I'd never seen him do this before. They were always very friendly to me, and they kinda knew me and I knew them. And then I kinda got the idea that he was trying to tell me something, and I turned around and there was about a 14 foot gator about a foot from my foot coming up on the bay. And the sandhill crane was trying to tell me, hey. The gator is kinda trying to get you. So I just did what the bird did. I stood up and kinda went and yelled, and, you know, the gator went on its way. But I think had the bird not come in there, I think the gator was coming up to take a take a bite out of me or drag me back into the water. It was a big gator.

Tom Rowland: Wow. Or at least at least test you out and see what you were. That's

Mark Smith: right. It would That's how they do it.

Tom Rowland: They they bite. When you're when you're when you go someplace and you're you're doing you're doing your thing, are you shooting both, still and video? Do you have two setups there? Are you shooting

Mark Smith: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: All video? Like, what do you how do you do it? You have two cameras that you're Yeah.

Mark Smith: I take two two camera bodies with me and, use a, you know, a bag full of lenses. And then we'll one will be my dedicated stills camera, and then the other will be, like, dedicated for video. And then, you know, that's one of the questions I get asked a lot is, how do you choose between the two? Yeah. And there's no rhyme or reason. You just I just do it. Like, okay. I'm just gonna shoot video now for a little while. I mean, you have to as a photographer, you have to understand that whatever choice you make is the right choice regardless. So, like, you can't say, oh, I should have been shooting video when you're shooting stills or or vice versa. You just have to accept your choice and just go with it. And I've always found that it works out.

Tom Rowland: Half the time, you might be thinking, dang it. That should be shooting. You you don't wanna you don't wanna back, you know, second guess yourself because you drive yourself crazy, but I'm sure there's still times where you you feel like maybe maybe I might have picked up the wrong one. But with what you do, is there I mean, I know we're getting better and better at this, and we'll pull, like, screen grabs from from video sometimes. And but it seems like that would be, like, not what you would wanna do because you're taking such a high resolution photograph, and you're so good at it, and you're doing it with with such purpose, with with the triangle like you like you told us. But is there an opportunity? Are we getting good enough to where you can get one of these images like like you're, you know, like you're, putting on the you know, like, you're showing your prints. Yeah. Yeah. Is it possible that you could pull something of that quality from video these days?

Mark Smith: It's getting close. I I think you can do it if you have exceptional video, but the the big difference is the the amount of data that would be in the screen grab versus, like, the high res raw file from the still, like, to to do some kind of post processing. Like, most photographers shoot in you know, when they're shooting stills, they shoot in a format called raw, which is kind of a outputs kind of a flat file without a lot of contrast or color, and it's up to you to kinda shape it back to your artistic vision, whatever that is. And you would be lacking that ability with a screen grab. You don't have the all of the information in there to to, for lack of a better term, manipulate. So

Tom Rowland: So when you're like, where we are today, like, with the photographers that I spend the most time with, they're also really good editors of their own photos. And they that, you know, like you're saying, that's that's part of the how much of that do you think is is part of your creative process? Like, your editing, your shooting, like, where does it is it fifty fifty? Is it one is more important than the other to you?

Mark Smith: To me, I spend as little time editing as possible because I wanna be out in the world capturing stuff. That's that's just me. Yeah. But but there is a there is a style, you know, and it depends. It depends on the image or the video. There are some images where I'll spend a lot of time on them and, try to make them look, you know, however I have in my mind. You know? And, same with video. There's a lot that you can do with video to kinda draw the attention of the the viewer into the video. So but, ultimately, I would rather be out side ex you know, experiencing this stuff as opposed to editing it on the computer.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I I can see why.

Food, Water, and a Place They Feel Safe

Tom Rowland: What about that black skimmer? That that that that was where does that bird live?

Mark Smith: I'm in Florida. They they they come here in the winter. Yeah. It it it can be difficult to get them feeding or skimming. You have to find them at a, you know, in a regular pattern and hope that that pattern holds when you get out there. But, actually, right now is the season. There's a lot of them here, and, of course, they have to eat. So you just have to be able to find their food source, and then, they usually won't be too far behind. I, I had a older friend who's a photographer tell me something a long time ago that has rung so true. For every animal that you're trying to photograph or video, they want three things. And if you can find those three things relative to that animal, you'll always find an animal. They want food, they want water, and they want a place where they feel comfortable. And it's the same for us as human beings. Those are the three things that that would put us in one place. So if you're looking for skimmers, you wanna be able to find the skimmer. You wanna be able to find their food. You wanna find a place where they're comfortable and they don't feel like they're threatened by anything. And then, of course, a water source, and then you'll find them. So same with any other animal.

Tom Rowland: And what's this what is the skimmer's main source of when it's feeding, like, what we're we're looking right there, what is it feeding on?

Mark Smith: All kinds of different fish. It depends on where it's feeding. This was at Merritt Island Black Point Drive, which is, out in, like, the Titusville area of some national property. So exactly what it would have been pulling out of there, I don't know because it's brackish water. So whatever little kind of fish like mud minnows, it would get it would be my guess. I've seen them with mullet. I've seen them here recently. I got some that were pulling, pumping on permit out of the surf, which was crazy to see. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then yeah. There's one. I think that's a a mullet. Yeah. He got a finger mullet out of the surf.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Pull a permit out.

Mark Smith: Yeah. That that same bird got a little permit, but he dropped it because it was too big for him to swallow. And a lot of times, they will get, little teeny glass minnows. I don't know what those are, but they're little teeny minnows. They'll skim along and grab those. Right. But that's a really, really cool bird.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It is. And and Yeah. What a wild way to evolve into that's your hunting method. Because when they get one, like that one that we just watched, it just cranks their neck down. Like

Mark Smith: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: That you could hit something, I guess. They could. Yeah.

Mark Smith: But If they would, they don't.

Tom Rowland: I don't I mean, how do they not hit the bottom somewhere? Or I don't know. I mean

Mark Smith: I don't I don't either. That's

Tom Rowland: the most efficient way that that thing can catch a fish. I mean, it's beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah. But but It

Mark Smith: seems It seems wild

Tom Rowland: that that's how you would do it. I I mean, watch this. I think it gets one. It, like, just shrinks its neck back.

Mark Smith: Yeah. I don't know if this one does. I think this was just a beautiful sunrise and just effortlessly gliding through it.

The Beak That Redesigned a Surfboard Fin

Mark Smith: Yeah. I there's a cool story I have about these birds, and you can't see it in any of these videos, but I have a photo somewhere. So that bottom beak that they're dragging through the water has, like, grooves in it that go this way diagonally so that that allows the water to pass by the beak really quickly. So it's it's more, hydrodynamic. And I had a really good photo of that, and there was a surfboard company in California about five years ago asked me to send them high res photos of that beak. They wanted to use that same design on their fins, so I gladly sent them that because I thought it would be a great idea. And they wrote me back, like, three months later and said that they were the fastest, most agile fins they had ever designed, and they thanked me greatly. And I think they were a huge success. Yeah. There you you can see the grooves in the bottom of the beak there. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, if you're ever looking for inspiration for engineering or I mean, look to nature.

Mark Smith: Probably That's right.

Tom Rowland: Place to go. I mean, how how are you gonna get better than than that? That is

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: That is wild. Look how big that one the the bottom beak is compared to the top.

Mark Smith: You know what's funny too is it's paper thin. It is literally paper thin. Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine too, like, knowing what I know about most birds, that it's probably like a highway of nerve cells, and they they can feel the slightest vibrations and fluctuations in the water around them. I I

Tom Rowland: You would imagine because it's not like they're piercing the fish. They have to they have to

Mark Smith: Grab it.

Tom Rowland: Grab it. And it has I mean, feet jocks. I know you've tried to grab a fish out of the lab well.

Mark Smith: It's not easy. It's not easy at all.

Tom Rowland: I mean, even if the thing's dying, it's almost dead. You can it's hard to grab the thing out there, but we don't have the right tools.

Mark Smith: That's right. That bird does.

Tom Rowland: That the tools are perfect. Yes. Cool. So with everything that you got on got going on, what do you where do you wanna take this? Like, is there do you have kind of a a place in on the horizon that you're trying to to go with your social media, your photography, or or are you just taking it one day at a time?

Mark Smith: I just take it one day at a time. I think the the greatest thing that I've learned about most of the social media is exposing people to things that they can't see and how how appreciative they are of learning about the world around them through this and inspiring them to to go outside and and try to see these things on their own. That's been the the greatest part, especially when it's, like, kids. I've had a lot of teachers use my, content to teach kids certain lessons in life, and, it's always very dramatic to hear that it's been, like, that positive to people and that much of an influence. Things that I would have never guessed, would be a a best thing. So for me, that's that's, like, the best part. So if I can just continue, I'd I'd be good.

Tom Rowland: And what about the teaching of other people? Like, you said that some people can travel with you and or or how do people learn from you? Like, do you have a school set up or or just trips, or how do you do it?

Mark Smith: Yeah. I have a I have a few things. I have some online courses that are more geared towards specific cameras and setting them up and using them. And then I have a lot of photography workshops where I take people out in the field and teach them how to operate their cameras, how to read the behavior of the animals, and how I might approach, doing what I do. And and that that can be a great experience as well because you can you can kinda give them this information and and watch them attempt it, and then maybe give them a little bit more information and then kinda stand back and watch them, like, understand and start kinda growing on their own. And that's, that's very cool too. And, again, another, like, byproduct of it is the friendships that I've created with people that I would not have probably ever met otherwise.

Tom Rowland: That's super cool. And so when you take people out, like, are you doing that mostly in Florida? Or

Mark Smith: I I do a lot in Florida. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: So when you go out for Florida, is there, like, is there a specie? Do you go for pelicans? Like, do you is there something that you're pretty doggone sure you can find in the right light and in the right kind of area that you can show people? Is there a favorite?

Mark Smith: The favorite would be ospreys. But with any animals, you can never fully predict what they're gonna do. You know that's right. Yeah. Ospreys, I would say, I understand them quite well. And I and I usually know what stimulates them into their biggest feeding episodes, but it's not always something that you can plan your time around. And it's usually, like, some type of weather event, be it a cold front or something moving through. As a as as a fisherman, you probably know that that it Yeah. Kinda stimulates the whole ecosystem, and everything kinda picks up on those cues, the drops in barometric pressure and all that stuff, and the ospreys do as well.

Tom Rowland: You can you can see it certainly as a fisherman, but, you know, a lot of fishermen, you know, you're paying attention to so many different things and but but to forecast what you know, when ospreys are gonna be diving, maybe maybe you can as a fisherman. I don't know.

Mark Smith: But it

Tom Rowland: seems like more of a Yeah. I mean, it seems like more of a specialized kind of skill that, you know, the tide needs to be like this. And maybe maybe as a fisherman, you know, you've got a fishing spot where every time you go there on this particular condition, the ospreys are diving too. That's, you know, something that's repeatable, and forecastable. But I don't know. I would say for the most part, I don't know that I could forecast when when an osprey was gonna be doing doing their thing.

Wind, Tide, and Ospreys at Sebastian Inlet

Mark Smith: So, the the place that I like to go the most is pretty well known as Sebastian Inlet State Park. That inlet has a lot of fish that move in and out of it. And the things that I've learned that are definite there, if there is no wind, the ospreys will not fly. They they they need the wind there to help them get these bigger fish out of the water. And if you're at slack tide, they also will not fly because the fish are not doing anything typically at slack tide. Right. So at at this location, you want a a good wind at least eight to 10 miles an hour, and you want fast moving water. If you have those two things, the odds of seeing them hunt are are very, very good.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So will will they are they always going to to hunt into the wind so that they can get the lift out of the water?

Mark Smith: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The the adults

Tom Rowland: or anything or is it pretty much you can almost guarantee that it's gonna be directly into the wind?

Mark Smith: Almost guarantee it's gonna be directly into the wind. The only time that changes is if it's a young bird that hasn't learned yet, and you can tell pretty quickly, what the young birds are. They look a little bit different. They have a different color eye, and their patterns of feathers are different. And then, of course, the diving not into the wind is usually the dead giveaway. And they will always fly out of the water the same way into the wind unless they have some type of confrontation from the front, which happens a lot. And then they'll come up as quickly as they can, and they'll turn and catch a tailwind and and sail out really quickly. And the the biggest confrontation or competition they have here are the brown pelicans. The brown pelicans here have learned that the osprey are good at what they're doing, and they it's amazing to watch these pelicans. They will fly to the mouth of the inlet, land, and they'll just drift with the tide, and they'll wait for an osprey to hit. Soon as the osprey hits the water, the pelican is right on top of them trying to steal their fish. And they're just they're smart. They're they're doing very little work. But, if if that confrontation again is head on, then the osprey will turn and go the other way. The, the other interesting thing that I've noticed is audio wise, ospreys have very specific sounds they make when they're threatened. They have a very specific sound they make when an eagle comes in the area. And if you know that, then you know the eagles come in, and that's pretty fantastic to see. You can you can be around 15 or 20 ospreys. They make the alarm call and you see them all just they're out of there and two I don't know. Maybe twenty seconds later, an eagle will come in every time. So they make a very specific call and there's an eagle in the area. And if you as a human being are too close to their food source, they make a very specific sound too. And knowing that can be very helpful because then, you know, you need to just back up and give them more space and let them do what they do. So

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Interesting that that the osprey seems to me to be so much of a superior more superior fisherman than the eagle, but the eagle is so much of a more dominant bird. Like, the osprey doesn't wanna they they don't seem to want anything to do with the eagle. The eagle will definitely steal from them, and, they they're the eagle's just not as good. Like, it's No. Bigger. And and an eagle also is a bird of of carrion too in certain areas and certain

Mark Smith: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Above that. But I don't think an osprey is. I've never seen an osprey eat it, you know, go down and pick up a dead fish. Like

Mark Smith: I have. They they they will if if times are tough.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I guess it would have to be really tough because they they're such a good fisherman that they they typically you know, whenever I see them flying through the Everglades or whatever, just like what we're seeing there, the fish is, like, really fresh. Like, it looks like it just caught it, and it, yeah, I think it's so cool how they turn it, into the wind.

Mark Smith: Like Oh, yeah. Aerodynamic. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, head into the wind almost every time. And that goes for, you know, the ospreys that I saw out west when they would catch a trout to, you know, the ospreys that you see, you know, catch a mullet or something else, and it goes directly right into the wind. It's so cool.

How an Osprey Knows It Is a Catfish

Mark Smith: There you know, it's really cool. Something I've learned about them here in maybe the past couple of years, they get a lot of catfish here. You know, the the big, sail cats and then the other, I don't know what the other ones are called, but the ones that most people throw out away. And they know it's the catfish when they come down because they don't they don't dive at an impact. They come down very gingerly and just pick it off at the top because they don't wanna hit those spines of the catfish. So they know. So I can tell when the bird's coming down. It's gonna be a catfish because it's coming nice and slow. And every time, that's when they get the the big old catfish. So it's interesting. So they know from 50 to a 100 feet in the air that what they're about to grab is that catfish with those spines, and they have to avoid it. So they're smart birds.

Tom Rowland: You know, I've seen a lot of osprey dive just, you know, with my eyes and everything. But until I had seen a lot of your your, photography and video, I didn't realize, like, in some situations how far out the the feeder going in front of the bird. Like, it's an Yeah. Sight to see that. That's one of the things I like so much about, like, where photography is going and and slow motion video and things like that. You just see these animals, whether it's a a fish or a shark or a bird or something, doing these incredible things that with with your regular eye and not in slow motion, you you can't tell that that's what they're doing. It it may it could be a hummingbird or, like, you know, now you can see a hummingbird and you see every little bead of the wings, and you're like, that's just not what it looks like when I'm looking at it. But it's so

Mark Smith: That's right. Like Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: The way that they stick those feet way out in front, not when they're getting a catfish, obviously. You know, now that I now I know that now, but, it's that's just an incredible bird, the osprey.

Mark Smith: It it is. Some of the slow motion stuff that I've seen too that's very interesting is they will use incoming swells to help them get out of the water. And I've noticed they might, like, unlock one set of talons on the back as the swell's coming up, and they jab it in the back of the fish to make the fish come up on that swell, and they'll ride that up to get out of the water. Cool. So, yeah, they're good at manipulating the environment to to get them out of the water. And another interesting thing I've noticed in slow motion is when they come out of the water and they're finally kinda clear of the water, they immediately scan to the left, to the right, and kinda look up, and they're looking for the clearest way out of there without any kind of confrontation. And And you don't see any of that when it like you said, because it's so fast, boom, when they're Yeah. They're gone. But when you can analyze all that in slow motion, and that's, I think one of the most fascinating things about it to me is learning about them and their behaviors.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I love it. I love it. And, so, you know, the osprey, the eagles, the birds of prey, I'm sure you've photographed, frigate birds and everything else. But do you like do you enjoy, like, songbirds, feeder birds, like, just just general bird as much, or are you kind of a predator kinda photographer?

Mark Smith: One one thing I've learned about all of these birds doing this is they're all birds of prey if you ask me. Even the little songbirds are they're catching and eating things that you're like, oh, I didn't realize they, you know, they ripped the heads off of lizards, but they they're all that way. But I like the I I would say I definitely like the raptors better. I I like owls, eagles, all the birds of prey. They just fascinate me at what they do, and and the peregrine falcon as well. They're they're unmatched, and they do some bizarre stuff. But, they're cool birds too. So, definitely, I would say I'm drawn more to them.

Tom Rowland: Seems like the owl would be a a difficult bird because because they're so nocturnal, and they're gonna be in the kinda dusky light. But cameras are getting so much better that you can you you can probably do that, and you know how to do that. But most most would have a hard time with that.

Mark Smith: Some some owls are not nocturnal too. Some of the ones up north hunt during the day. Some of the, yeah, the great gray owls, and sometimes the snowy owls will hunt during the day. Florida, I've seen barred owls out in the middle of the day, so I think it just depends on the owl. And then we have the little burrowing owls. They're out all the time during the day. Mhmm. And then we have the screech owls here too, which I wouldn't say are out active during the day, but if you know where to find them, you can you can find them during the day. So

Tom Rowland: That's cool. That great gray owl is such a giant bird too.

Mark Smith: Oh, yeah.

Tom Rowland: We used to see those out west, and and we'd see them in the day. But we used to have a place, that I would fish right under the Tetons. You would like this place. But there was a fishing owl that would come and, and and fish, like, like an osprey, like, dive down and get fish and right in front of the Tetons. It's an incredible spring creek down there, and you can go and fish right in this this one little place, this public area, and and you can go down there. But the problem is you're going down there, and it's it's it's willows everywhere, and the moose are down there. They used to be down there a lot before there were so many wolves around, but I think that they've changed their behavior a lot. But there was a fishing owl, and if you would go there and you would you would stay towards sunset, you would see it almost every night. And I don't know if the thing's still there doing that, but it was it was that was my first encounter with a with a fishing owl, but it was it couldn't have been in a more incredible setting. It was

Mark Smith: Oh, that sounds amazing.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, listen, man. I really, appreciate you coming on the podcast. I learned a ton about a lot of different things. But, if people want to take your courses, if they want to have you be their their personal, photography coach, how do they do that? How do they go on a trip with you?

Mark Smith: You can find it on all of my social medias or my website, photoworkshopsandtours.com.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Awesome, man. That would be a lifetime a lifetime thing for so many people that are into photography. It would be amazing. It's really cool that you do that for people to, to be able to learn from you like that. That's awesome. Well, I'll be

Mark Smith: following time doing it.

Tom Rowland: I'll be following your stuff, and it and it's mark smith photography on Instagram. Is that the same on on YouTube? Is that your handle on YouTube?

Mark Smith: Yep. That's the same and be that on all the social medias.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Cool. Well, man, I really appreciate you, you coming by, and I'll I'll be following your stuff. I hope you can Yeah.

Mark Smith: I appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: Putting it out there.

Mark Smith: Yeah. I will. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.

Tom Rowland: Alright. That's it for this week. We'll be back with another great guest just like Mark, and, go follow him if you're not already following him. But judging by the number of people following his accounts, I think you probably already are.