Michael Fowlkes | Founding Fathers & Secret Kite Shaped Sport Fishing | Ep. 958

Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 958: Michael Fowlkes

In this episode: the 1732 fishing club that hid the men who wrote the Constitution, George Farnsworth's secret kite, the IGFA's World War II survival fishing kits, waters off Avalon turning white with tuna, and Bill Poole's long-range boats — in the exact words spoken.

00:00 · Cold Open

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Michael Fowlkes: I'm Michael Fowlkes, and I'm the executive producer of the History of Sportfishing, and this is a Tom Rowland podcast.

Tom Rowland: Michael, how are you doing, man?

Michael Fowlkes: Good, sir. Thank you so much, Tom, for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: You're well. I've enjoyed, talking with you as we've gone through as you've gone through the production of your of your movie, which turned out from a movie to a 12 part series now.

Michael Fowlkes: Yes, sir.

Tom Rowland: And, my goodness. Looking in the back of right behind you, you have collected an amazing amount of angling artifacts. What what how where did all that come from?

02:13 · Bill Dance Said to Call Tom

Michael Fowlkes: Well, before we get started, first of all, I wanna thank you for, and I'm I'm sure all your fans know this about you already. But I just wanna point out to them what an what an incredible individual you are. I did an interview with Bill Dance about two and a half, three years ago. And during the interview, Bill said I should suggest that I get in touch with you. And he said I've done a great interview with Tom, blah blah blah. And so I called you out of the blue. You didn't know me from Adam, a complete stranger. You took my call. You listened to the idea. And without hesitation, you said, what can I do to help? What can we do to contribute to this project? Anything we have, you've got you're welcome to use it. And I just wanna point out that that's the kind of man you are. You didn't think about the money or how much it could or could not make. You just said, what can I do to help? And you've dedicated pretty much your entire adult life to helping this industry, to helping the sport, and people that love the outdoors engage on a personal level, and you educate, you entertain. And I just wanna say thank you so much for for taking the call of a complete stranger and helping to transform this little project, into what it is today. Because without you and people like you, the IGFA and Trout Unlimited, the Bonefish Tarpon and Trust, American Museum of Fly Fishing, all these people, organizations just like yourself and individuals have stepped up to really make this project what it is. And I just from the bottom of my heart, I wanna say thank you.

Tom Rowland: Well, that's about the best introduction I've ever had on a podcast. Thanks. That that's that's very much appreciated, and and, that is I don't know. I I I love what I do, and

Michael Fowlkes: I

Tom Rowland: love to see other people do cool things, especially as it comes to, what what really intrigued me about your project was that it's about the history. Like, there's not anyone out there right now. Well, maybe there are. I don't know. I wouldn't wanna take anything away from anybody that's doing things right now. But for the most part, it's all built on the people that came before us. And to show them respect and to show, you know, the the true pioneers of the sport, the respect that they deserve, that's that's incredible. I mean and and really the sport is as as we're going to talk, the sport's not that old. I mean, even when I first got into the sport, looking back on it now, there were things that that are everyday items that we're using that were not even invented yet. There are things that and and that's not that long ago. No. Really not that long ago. And then you look back on people like, you know, Stu Apt and and Flip Pallet and Chico Fernandez and those guys, Lefty Cray pioneering fly fishing, and and the stuff that they were using was basically pioneering fly fishing in saltwater.

Michael Fowlkes: In saltwater. Right. And the

Tom Rowland: stuff that they were using was basically they invented it. Like Yeah. There weren't a saltwater fly lines. Like, they would sand down monofilament to make a tapered fly line. It's just it's just incredible. Let me put

Michael Fowlkes: her on slide.

Tom Rowland: Are we good, Jake?

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. It's working on everything but

Tom Rowland: Instagram. Okay. Well, it's working on everything but Instagram right now. So, anyway, so, Michael, what was your, kind of motivation to launch into this project?

05:46 · A Goldfish Pond in Rural Virginia

Michael Fowlkes: Well, I I you know, I've like like you and everyone else, I think, that I know that loves to fish, we grew up at our father's or our grandfather's sides, and they taught us how to fish. I mean, you I listened to your podcast, and you talked about your first experience fishing with your dad. Yep. And I have the same thing with my grandfather and my dad, and and I think all of us do the same thing. So I think once fishing's in your blood and it becomes a part of your DNA, then it's just it's just a a blessing to anyone that's been fortunate enough to be introduced to the sport. So I've loved to fish since I could walk, and

Tom Rowland: Where where did you start?

Michael Fowlkes: I I actually grew up in Rural Virginia.

Tom Rowland: Okay.

Michael Fowlkes: And when I was four years old, I I got a a a little short plastic fishing rod and reel with a big plastic hook for Christmas. Mhmm. And our neighbors, about two blocks away, had a little goldfish pond. And I'd go down there at four year four years old by myself and try to catch these goldfish out of this little pond, and I had a hook that was bigger than the fish. And, I'd spend my summers sitting by that pond and, from sunrise to sunset. And I finally figured if I took some Velveeta cheese and squeezed it around the hook, they'd actually nibble at it. Nice. So, you know, I've been fishing my whole life. At my first job when I was nine years old was working as a pinhead on one of the sport boats. And, I just I I love the sport. And when I found out that the first large tuna and the first marlin and the first broad billed swordfish ever captured on a rod and reel were taken off Southern California, off Avalon, I said, god, I didn't know that. That's a great story. We should we should try to tell the story about, you know, these first big game fish. And when I started doing some research, I gotta interrupt myself for a second. Just, Tammy Evatan saw a post and called me out of the blue and said, hey. My dad shot a bunch of pictures in the in Florida in the nineteen thirties and forties. He was the he was the head photographer for the Metropolitan newspaper. He was friends with, Lefty and and Joe Brooks and and, you know, all all these all these great anglers. And she says, I've got an archive of pictures here that have never been seen. Mhmm. I'd love to donate them to you. So we sent them off. Her dad actually shot that picture, of the of the men on the beam having lunch

Tom Rowland: Yes.

Michael Fowlkes: Over Rockefeller Plaza. So that's her dad.

Tom Rowland: Picture that you're talking about. It has nothing to do with fishing. It's like it's the construction picture.

Michael Fowlkes: Exactly. And

Tom Rowland: it it's an iconic picture.

Michael Fowlkes: It's an iconic photograph, and her dad had he loved to fish. And so he'd hang out with with Ted Williams and Joe Brooks, and they'd fish and film together. And so she sent me some photographs. I thought, oh, these are great, Tim, and we started talking. The next thing I know, she's sending me some notes, and I don't have a whole lot of experience on the East Coast. And she grew up in South Florida, and said, let me help you maybe write a few thoughts. And next thing I know, we've teamed up like this, and she has been instrumental in helping to write the story. She was she was really the head researcher and the main writer. So would

08:54 · From a 75-Minute Film to a 12-Part Series

Tom Rowland: was there ever an idea to make this a book instead of a a film? Or

Michael Fowlkes: the idea about making a book has come up recently. We've had some, some inquiries about doing a book, and we're talking about it. I think we'd also like to do a book on her dad as well. But so we're looking at doing a book off the film, but right now, we're just focused on on trying to get the word out there if the film's available.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So how when did you finish? When did

Michael Fowlkes: just a few months ago, to be honest with you.

Tom Rowland: Okay. And so the original idea was that it was gonna be, what, a two hour

Michael Fowlkes: The original idea was it gonna be, Warren Miller and Bruce Brown's The Endless Summer Meets Ken Burns. And it was gonna be a seventy five minute film about the birth of the big game fishing. And then when I found out the first tarp in over a 100 towns was taken in in Florida, that was the first fish that was ever taken, a large fish on a on regular standard striped bass tackle that they were using. And then that was in the early eighteen hundreds, eighteen eighties. And then, the first the first broad I get ahead of myself. The first tuna was taken here in Southern California in, 1886, by Colonel Morehouse. And then two years later, doctor Charles Frederick Holder caught a 183 pound leaping tuna, which is what they call the bluefin back there, and, and and formed the Tuna Club of Avalon on June 1898. And that really earmarked kind of the the official start of of big game offshore fishing. Wow. And, and and that catch was followed a few years later by the first marlin. And then in 1913, they caught the first broad billed swordfish on a rod and reel. So the first large game fish in the world, were taken off, off Tampa, off Florida on that tarpon and then followed up on on the West Coast. So I just thought that was a great story. And as we started telling the story, the IGFA got involved and said they opened up their vaults. Trad Unlimited opened up their vaults. Orvis, you know, Iowa, all these people said YETI, Costa. Everyone said, what can we do to help? They loved the idea of the project. And so they just started donating and opening up their vaults. And the more stuff I got, I've always had this rule, you cut to content. If you've got good content, you put it on. Yeah. You got bad content, you put it on the floor. So as we started cutting this story together based on the content that we were receiving, it just kept evolving organically. And what started off as a, like you said, a seventy five, ninety minute film turned into a twelve hour, 12 part documentary covering every aspect of the sport, every species, every location, and it's just it's been an honor to try to assemble all this material into a cohesive story that we could give back to the sport.

Tom Rowland: Well, certain parts of of fishing have been well documented in literature, Fly fishing per Absolutely.

Michael Fowlkes: Especially fly fishing.

Tom Rowland: And then Ernest Hemingway did a good job of, you know, the type of fishing that he wanted. But there's other types of fishing that don't seem like they they have been well documented, or at least I've not run into it on the level of fly fishing. Fly fishing seems to have the most written about it.

Michael Fowlkes: It does. I don't know who that

12:10 · The Fishing Club Where the Constitution Was Written

Tom Rowland: is, but it seems like it. What do you think, were the biggest surprises as, you know, things that you, didn't expect as you are, you know, going down this road and you're you're unveiling this history of all types of sport fishing? What do you think were the biggest things that you were surprised at?

Michael Fowlkes: Well, the number one thing, Tom, that really, it's it it it it is to this day. The number one thing that stuck with me was that in 1732, along the shores of a place called the Schuylkill River, which is, where Philadelphia is now, a group of guys got together and said, hey, let's start this fishing club called the Schuylkill Fishing Club, nicknamed the Castle. And these guys got together, and basically what they were doing, and you might have heard of some of these guys, Benjamin Franklin, William Bradford, George Washington, Paul Revere, these guys got together under the guise of a fishing club to talk about declaring the independence of the colonies from Great Britain.

Tom Rowland: Interesting.

Michael Fowlkes: And had they been caught, they would have been hung for treason. So the fishing club was the the the umbrella in which these gentlemen were able to get together where they actually wrote the declaration of independence and the constitution of The United States was written by fly fishermen under the guise of the of the Schuylkill Fishing Club.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: Which I just thought is phenomenal. So our forefathers, the men that wrote the constitution of this country, were all fishermen.

Tom Rowland: That is wild. I've never heard that.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. And and the Schuylkill Fishing Club, you're talking about document documenting, you written history. The Schuylkill Fishing Club is, today, still operating. It's the oldest continually operating social club in the English speaking language, and they documented every single aspect of their doings. And so their their their their club record has all these names as part of their as part of their legacy.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: It's a fascinating story.

Tom Rowland: That is that is crazy. And and it's still going, and now it's a social club, not a fishing. It's a

Michael Fowlkes: social club. Yep. And it's the longest continually operative social club in the English speaking language.

Tom Rowland: That seems to happen with with things that start out as fishing, then they turn into something else.

Michael Fowlkes: Like, it's because

Tom Rowland: Ash, Strumby, and Fitch. There's another one that turned into something completely different. But it what it used to be like a Orvis type company.

Michael Fowlkes: Right.

Tom Rowland: And, then now you would never see any well, I don't even know if it's still around anymore, but I think they got in trouble. But sorry. It was a fishing thing. So that's super cool. So that's one. That's a that's a that's something I didn't know about. I'm sure that if I I I don't wanna ruin it for all your your audience, but I don't think that you would. I think the more that you can tell about the history, the more people are gonna wanna watch this this, this 12 part series. Are there any other things that that you were surprised about?

15:17 · WWII Survival Kits and the Avalon Tuna Club

Michael Fowlkes: Well, I I was really touched by, Michael Erner and the guys from the IGFA

Tom Rowland: Okay.

Michael Fowlkes: When the second World War broke out, that they got together and were donating survival fishing kits

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: To all servicemen. And, I know that they were just small kits that had they were, like, wrapped up in a in a canvas bag. It had it was like a dropper line with a little wooden spool, and they had, you know, feather jigs and and different hooks and leaders, and it was for survival. And I know that that that those donations helped save, lots of lives for downed pilots and servicemen that were were were, you know, downed on the in the seas.

Tom Rowland: Wow. I I thought that the efforts of

Michael Fowlkes: the IGFA were fascinating. I also thought the foundation and the formation of, doctor Charles, Holder, when he formed the Catalina, the Avalon Tuna Club, was based on ethical fair practices for sport fishing. And I thought that was the very first conservational efforts that were ever made, and that was in 1898, that the first conservational efforts were made by fishermen

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: To to to establish ethical and and and practical fishing rules and regulations that were a fair fight for the fish.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. If they saw the tackle that we're using today, I wonder if they would what they

Michael Fowlkes: would think They would not think it's compared to

Tom Rowland: what they were using back then.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. I mean, the tuna club still uses, vintage tackle. They have different classes, but they have a vintage tackle classification where you can fish with, vintage rods, wooden rods, vintage reels pre 1950, and linen line. And they have categories for all those, you know, the major pelagic species and need, you know, three, six, nine, twelve, 24 thread linen on vintage tackle. And so now instead of going out and catching a tune on Dacron on a two speed, you take your nineteen forties reel and wouldn't rot out there with cotton line and see if you can do it. And the challenge to me was just overwhelming. I've caught thousands of fish in my life, but to be able to go out and try to catch fish the way they did a hundred years ago

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: It's just an amazing experience. And and I think that's another part of the the thing of the film that's so impressive is that throughout history, anglers have been in the forefront of conservation and at the forefront of making sure we protect our fisheries, our waterways, our oceans, and the fish themselves.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It certainly continued on to today. I'm sure you covered all, you know, the the, the tax, the the the self imposed tax that that hunters and fishermen have put on on ourselves, I'm sure that got covered too. When you go back to those first couple of fish that you mentioned, the the tarpon and the marlin off San Diego, is that what you said?

18:05 · George Farnsworth's Secret Kite

Michael Fowlkes: The the leafing tuna, the the bluefin. They call them leaping tuna back in the day, and those were taken off Avalon.

Tom Rowland: Okay. What kind of boats are those taken?

Michael Fowlkes: Small, basically, skiffs. They were skiffs. And probably, I think most of them were probably in the in the 18 to 22 foot range. Some of them had, two stroke motors, and they they didn't have enough power to troll. They couldn't even troll fast enough to get these fish to bite. So, George Farnsworth, who was one of the premier boatmen in Avalon at the time, actually had a big bank named after him, the Farnsworth Bank on the backside of Catalina Island. He came up with this idea of flying a kite.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: He was the first guy to come up with a kite. Wow. And he'd swear his passengers, his customers, and there were only one customer per day on a boat because they can only hold two two or three people. He swore him to secrecy. And for two years, he dominated catching fish in Avalon until on the July 4 in 2000 or was it 1911, he flew the kite through Avalon announcing to everybody in the world that that this is what he'd been using to catch fish.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: And then when Tommy Gifford flew out or or came out here to the West Coast and fished with him, Tommy then took the kite back to the East Coast and introduced the kite to the East Coast. And that's all documented in Tommy Gifford's book, Muscles and, Musselheads.

19:31 · Going Live: Where to Watch the Documentary

Tom Rowland: What would he fish what was like, we were just talking about this the other day on on, Dave's podcast about, somebody asked a question. If you're I just saw we we had our first question. This is our first time to ever go live.

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, cool. It's

Tom Rowland: really exciting. Jake, what does that question say? Where where where do you watch the documentary? So where do you where where can people

Michael Fowlkes: Right now, Tom, the documentary is available, on the app, which is the historyofsportfishing.com.

Tom Rowland: Okay.

Michael Fowlkes: That's the only place it's available right now. Hopefully, we'll get together with you and and able to put something together with Waypoint Waypoint.

Tom Rowland: That'd be so cool. Yeah. So you can get the app and you just go to the App Store and download that?

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. You can if you've got a smart TV, smartphone, you can go to your smart TV. It's on Amazon, or excuse me, it's on you can go to Google or Apple Play and type in history of sport fishing. It comes up. You can click on it right there, subscribe, and then you've got access to it.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Awesome. What we were talking about the other day on, on Dave's podcast, Your Saltwater Guide, if you don't follow that one. We did Oh, I do. Live a live podcast just like this, which is the, kind of the motivation to give it a try ourselves today, and you have at least one person watching. That's pretty cool. Well, you know, it's the first one. You never you're not you know, you gotta start somewhere. But, what we were talking about is that question came in there, and it was like, do you think that, you could take techniques from the East Coast and use them on the West Coast, and this person asked about the chicken rig, which a chicken rig is basically, for anybody that doesn't know, it's like a multi hook rig. You drop down. You catch multiple fish on on this rig. And my, initial reaction was, well, yeah, I don't know I don't know enough about the fishing in California to know what that would be good for. But I'm sure that if you took that technique out there and you were willing to change the weight, change the the the strength of the line, change the hook size, change all of these different things, but the principle of that idea would I would almost guarantee you that if you stuck with it long enough, you could figure out a place where that would work really, really well, or maybe it's already in use. I don't know. But that's that was what I was gonna kinda ask you about. Like, when he took that kite from the West Coast to the East Coast, what did he target with it right away?

Michael Fowlkes: Sailfish.

Tom Rowland: Oh, so he he saw that. See, that's what I'm talking about. He he saw that for a tuna purpose. He's like, man, if I took that back to my water, I can catch stuff. And that's what gets me so excited about fishing. Like, when you learn something from someone else and you look at it and you're like, that is so simple. Why didn't I think of that? Why hasn't anyone thought of that? And then you take it back and and and try it in your own water. What's that other question say, Jake?

22:20 · West Coast vs. East Coast — and a Kite on the Railroad

Michael Fowlkes: Do you prefer do you both prefer West Coast or East Coast fishing? What are the major differences

Tom Rowland: differences? Do you both prefer West Coast or East East Coast fishing? What are the major differences? So I don't know. In the in the history I mean, personally, I prefer East Coast because I have very, very little experience on the West Coast. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't wanna fish out there. I would. And I know that there's some amazing fishing out there. But in in terms of the history of sport fishing, where has the more activity happened? It sounds like the early activity was on the West Coast, but I don't know if that's if that held true throughout the whole history of sport fishing.

Michael Fowlkes: Tom, you nailed it. The the early the early, the earliest was was the West Coast. But as Tommy Gifford brought stuff to the East Coast, and he said he exchanged ideas, the East Coast, evolved from it evolved into the leader. The East Coast is definitely the leader of the of the saltwater sport fishing world today, and, I think it's partially because they have so many different species and so many different options to fish. You can fish flies in the shallows there Mhmm. And the tarpons up in the mangroves and and and bonefish and and permits and all these incredible fish along the beaches that we really don't have here on the West Coast. We've got the Pacific's, you know, it's, I mean, a much deeper I don't know if it's much deeper, but it's a it's a we don't have the shallows.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: We got beach, and then we got drop off, and we got waves. So it's it's a more vibrant, more more energized body of water. And so the fish, are more pelagic. They move around a lot more than I think they do on the East Coast, perhaps. I'm not a 100% sure. Like you said, I'm more comfortable out here because this is where I grew up, but the times I've fished on the East Coast, I've absolutely fallen in love with it.

Tom Rowland: So, I mean, you and I can get on an airplane and go back

Michael Fowlkes: and forth from the

Tom Rowland: West Coast to the East Coast. We can we're we're sitting right here on a some kind of a the Internet is allowing us to communicate face to face now. What a difference it is when Tommy Gifford brought that kite from the West Coast to the East Coast. How would he even have gotten there to begin with to see the kite in action?

Michael Fowlkes: A train, I guess? The Transcontinental Railroad.

Tom Rowland: The Transcontinental Railroad. He's all the way out there, and he decides, you know what? I think I'm gonna take this this kite back, either a kite or an idea for a kite. I I don't know exactly. Time to think about it.

Michael Fowlkes: But I I think probably I think Farnsworth probably gave him a kite to take back.

Tom Rowland: So he takes it back, and it probably takes him, what, two weeks to get back on the railroad?

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, I I'd probably say at least a couple of weeks, wouldn't you?

Tom Rowland: I would think so. I mean, I don't know. I mean, a train could probably go I I don't have any idea, but I would imagine that there's plenty of stops and, you know, for to go from California to Florida would be even then would be a major undertaking.

Michael Fowlkes: A major undertaking.

Tom Rowland: We just take that for granted these days of of Yes. We're not just even even, like, just get in a car and drive to California. That's gonna take four days, five days maybe.

Michael Fowlkes: Five days you're there.

Tom Rowland: But and that's driving hard, you know, but you could do it. No problem. Back then, man, if you were gonna go

Michael Fowlkes: across the

Tom Rowland: country, you would have been one of the few people to ever do that that you That's that's

Michael Fowlkes: that's exactly what I tried to capture in the film is trying to trying to show the vast differences of what we take for granted every day today to what they had a hundred years ago.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: Ford Ford even invented the car.

Tom Rowland: You know? That's right. I mean, there there wasn't even a car, and these guys are taking whatever kind of boat they can get out on whatever day is nice enough to get out there and trying to catch these fish that they hope are out there. I guess I mean, how would they even know that these fish are out there?

26:13 · Waters White With Tuna and the Oldest Footage

Michael Fowlkes: Well, on the West Coast, I know, Catalina was one of the most prolific fisheries in the world, in terms of the abundance of species and the abundance of numbers. And Avalon is a it's a it's a harbor. Not it's just a cove, basically. A sheltered cove on the on the leaf side of the island, where they used to take treble hooks and just throw them off the beach and just yank them and catch white sea bass, yellowtail off the beach with treble hooks, just snagging them. The schools were so thick that they could they could catch them on treble hooks and and and light chains. So, I, yeah, I I I think the the abundance of fish back in the day, was just overwhelming. We we can't fathom how many fish were here.

Tom Rowland: Like, to go out and catch a marlin or a sailfish, Like, how that's just amazing that you would even have the the imagination to think, well, if the if these white sea bass are right here, what's even further out there, and how would we catch it? And, I mean, that's amazing. Like Yeah. They they,

Michael Fowlkes: with that. There's a I think from Holder, there's a quote in the film that that the, the waters off Avalon would turn white, foaming from the tune of boiling right off the beach. Mhmm. As far as you could see As far as you

Tom Rowland: could see it, and they just wanted to get out there and that

Michael Fowlkes: I decided to be

Tom Rowland: further further. Wow. That's incredible. Are there was there any photography that you ran across?

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, yeah. We've got some phenomenal pictures. What do you

Tom Rowland: think the earliest photography that you ran across of of this The

Michael Fowlkes: earliest the earliest film footage that we have is the oldest known fly fishing footage, and I believe it was '9 1911 of, prime minister of England and his wife and their dog fly fishing along the shores of a river in England.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: And then, some of the photographs we have date back to the, the early mid eighteen hundreds, of of, some of the tarpon and and some of the early, catches here on the West Coast with, you know, the tuna primarily and then giant black sea bass. They used to catch 300 pound black sea bass all the time around the island and and, marlin and swordfish. So the the turn of the century, '9 late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds.

Tom Rowland: Did you run across like, the earliest tarpon, writing and photography that I think I've seen is is a book. I think it's by Demick. Somebody named

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A w Demick.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: And and the first Amazing.

Tom Rowland: They're, like, catching these Amazing. 20 pound fish out of a canoe. Yeah. Exactly. Canoe.

Michael Fowlkes: And he talks about getting dragged out.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And they've even got pictures of, like, the fish jumping. And thinking what kind of camera were they using back then? And what how I mean, they must have just jumped a ton of fish to be able to get that one picture.

Michael Fowlkes: That one shot. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's not like our cameras today where you rattle off 80 frames.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. In a second.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's amazing. But, I mean, that book, if you've never seen that book,

Michael Fowlkes: a A w Demick.

Tom Rowland: A w Demick. It's an incredible book. I think it's called The Book of the Tarpon.

Michael Fowlkes: Yes, sir. Exactly.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's an incredible book. I mean, I I love I love, you know, things like that, the the older type things, because it just gets my mind racing about what what it used to look like back then. Or you can read the books about the plume hunters in the Everglades and all the what the Everglades used to look like or even Florida. I mean and in some ways, you're thinking, man, I'd like to be there. And in other ways, Florida would have been one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.

Michael Fowlkes: It was brutal. The Everglades back in the day.

Tom Rowland: Tough. Have you ever did you did you when you were doing this, it doesn't have anything about, to do with fishing that I know of, really, but have you ever read that book that's called, A Land Remembered?

Michael Fowlkes: I haven't.

Tom Rowland: Oh, you would like it because Land Remembered. You're you're,

Michael Fowlkes: I'm gonna

Tom Rowland: because you're into history. Right? But this Sure. The Land Remembered is a book about, and it's it's a true book, I think, because if you read it, you'll you'll know what I'm saying at the end. I don't wanna spoil it for anybody, but it it's a story about a a man, his wife, and his son pioneering Florida around the civil war times, and it is a tough book. Florida was full of wolves and bears and the worst mosquitoes and flies

Michael Fowlkes: and could pick you up.

Tom Rowland: Man, I mean, it was it was tough.

Michael Fowlkes: I mean, it was

Tom Rowland: yeah. You know, it was tough

Michael Fowlkes: and all

30:52 · Bill Poole and the Birth of Long-Range Boats

Tom Rowland: of these other things. Jake, can you blow those questions up so I can read them or not? So we are getting some questions. It's kinda cool. What's that?

Michael Fowlkes: This one says, I don't know anything about West Coast fishing. Where is the most difficult place to fish out there and why?

Tom Rowland: Where is the most difficult place to fish on the West Coast and why?

Michael Fowlkes: Well, it's hard.

Tom Rowland: You know, in the in the in the, in the, vein of the conversation we have, where where was the most difficult to pioneer and

Michael Fowlkes: why?

Tom Rowland: Start

Michael Fowlkes: there. I think if you if we look at the the evolution of the sport on the West Coast, how it evolved from Avalon out of small skiffs and kinda moved to the beach and started to, you know, people started to fish more from the beach, and and small boats and and yachts. I think the evolution was really took place in San Diego after the second World War. I think that's when sport fishing on the West Coast really hit its stride and that all the returning veterans from the war, it was a phenomenal source of protein. Mhmm. People would bring gunnysacks of fish home. I know I grew up when I was nine years old, would would bring my fish home and fly them out and sell them to the neighborhood for 25¢ apiece.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: The demand for fish, And I think in the late nineteen forties, there was a gentleman by, the name of William Poole, Bill Poole, who decided after serving in the in the navy in Hawaii, came home and told his dad, I I think I wanna go into the fishing business. And his dad had a gas station, and he said, well, son, I'll sell the station, and we'll go into business together. So they they bought an old wooden schooner, Mascot's sailing boat, and anchored it off Point Loma and, and decided to start doing charters on an anchored boat in the kelp beds off Avalon. And an interesting store or excuse me, off San Diego. And an interesting story is the night before they were supposed to start having passengers ferried out to the boat, it caught on fire. Wow. Bill was on the boat alone, and he he was able to put the put the fire out. He caught on fire, dove overboard, was severely burned. The current was ripping. And if he hadn't had the anchor down, had the foresight to be able to grab hold of that anchor, we would have never heard of Bill Poole again. Mhmm. And he was able to get himself back up on the boat, his legs were severely burned, saved the boat, and they opened for business the next day.

Tom Rowland: Wow. And then once they were tougher back then. Pardon? People were just tougher back then.

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, just the world.

Tom Rowland: So tough. I mean, like, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna just what do you mean take the day off tomorrow? No way. We're going fishing.

Michael Fowlkes: There's no day off for fishing. But he he took that boat, and then, a lot of the army surplus boats were starting to become available.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: ASRVs, air sea rescue vessels. And so they were taking converted naval work boats, utility boats, and converting them into sport boats, but they really never did what Bill was hoping they would do. So, to answer your, the question, I don't know who wrote it in, but, Charlie maybe? Charlie. Charlie. So to to answer your question, Bill took one of these converted army, ASRVs out to an island called Guadalupe, which is 240 miles south due south of Point Loma. Never been done before. Taking a passenger taking a sport boat full of passengers 240 miles offshore, and it was phenomenal. The trips were unbelievable. So after a few trips like that, he realized that we need he he wanted a bigger and better boat. So he decided to start building boats. And I think in, in the early nineteen seventies, he started the Bill Pool boat yard, service, and they built the Royal Polaris, which is a 113 foot, and probably to this day is still one of the most spectacular sport fishing boats that's ever been built.

Tom Rowland: That's the head boat. Right? That go you go on What do

Michael Fowlkes: you guys call them? Head boats?

Tom Rowland: Head boat over here. But it's a boat where multiple lots of people can get on it, and they go way, way out. Correct. Right. Amazing fish on that.

Michael Fowlkes: They they they they travel. I I think they have a, like, a a 20,000 mile range. They take, 30 25 to 30 people up for for up to 21, and they feed them three meals a day and fresh bread. And, I mean, it's just what they do today compared to what they had in the fifties, it's unbelievable. And and so the the the Bill Pull influence on the West Coast, really transformed the experience from fishing out of converted schooners or barges or, you know, converted utility boats into into actual sport boats, and that spread all up and down the coast. So I'd say, Charlie, the the most difficult place to fish back in the day was the Guadalupe Island trip, which was a a tremendous and they did eight knots. It's, like, you know, eight knots, and you had 240 miles of open ocean. There's nothing between that island and the beach, nothing besides Pacific Ocean. So the conditions could get horrendous. Right. But, they did it.

Tom Rowland: I bet they yeah. What if we got out there and you decided about twenty minutes into the trip, you didn't think you wanted to go?

Michael Fowlkes: You're you're screwed.

Tom Rowland: Yes. That's it. You're you're in for two weeks. We'll be back.

Michael Fowlkes: You're done.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I don't know. Boy, that'd be a tough way to go. So there's probably a a book or a a more of a documentary just on the evolution of the sport boats. I mean, as you saw that, you know, what you did the story you just told, you're gonna have the same thing going on on the East Coast where they're they're they're converting boats, and then they're then these certain styles kind of are created. And then if you know boats, you see, well, that one has an influence for this other boat, and then over time, the boats just change and get more and more, specialized and and better and better for that particular purpose. You could that that would be an interesting, history as just of the boats and

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, we could we could do a whole series. I just Sure.

Tom Rowland: Because I'm sure this one guy worked at this boatyard for a while, and then he's got his idea to go over here and build one a little bit different.

Michael Fowlkes: Flared bow, and they use that same concept. And, Right. Again, it was post World War, post Second World War where all these boats started to come into into existence. And Wow. You know.

37:24 · How Florida Became the Destination

Tom Rowland: So let's talk about how, Florida emerges as as a sport fishing mecca.

Michael Fowlkes: Destination.

Tom Rowland: That well, and but, I mean, yeah, a destination. But it also you know, if you look at the history of it, you know, Florida has just become more and more important. Not that it's the best state or or or, but but it is a state that has three hundred sixty five potential days of fishing. There's a tremendous number of of, species, and there have been a tremendous number of very, very talented captains and anglers that we're all aware of. But I'm just wondering, like, as you go back into the history, when did Florida start to to be more and more and more of a of an important area in the fishing history?

Michael Fowlkes: Right right around the right around the nineteen forties. Yeah. Late thirties, I think, the mid mid to late thirties, I think Florida really came into its own. In fact, they actually had a a competition down there in, in at at at at the Met where it was the East Coast versus the West Coast. And they brought they brought anglers out from California and, and had the East Coast versus the West Coast competition, which I thought was really cool. But I I think in the in the mid nineteen thirties and on into the forties and early fifties, that's when Florida just exploded. And like you said, there's so many there's such a diversity of opportunity. You can you can fish off the beach. You can wake. You can you know, fly fishing hadn't really saltwater fly fishing really hadn't come into its own. Like you said, the pioneers, Joe Brooks and those guys, were really pushing the envelope on on what they could catch on a fly. And I just think that the opportunities in Florida are are are so virtually unlimited in terms of what you can pursue. And you don't have to go 250 miles to catch a tuna. You know? Right. So and you've got you've got 200 pound tarpon and 15 feet of water.

Tom Rowland: Right. Or less.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. Or less. I mean, right off the beach. So

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So who were some of the, what were some of the big, events or or evolutions of fishing that that happened in the state of Florida. I mean, I know we have some incredible captains, and even just before my time, you know, there was a there was a series of years where there were thousands of world records being set in the Florida Keys. And there were a group of anglers, and then you had Lefty Cray running the Met tournament there, and you had Joe Brook, like you said. But so many people, were were such an important part of of fishing in Florida. Mark Sosin had a big big part in fly fishing for, for all types of species. He ran the the flying, part of the Met. I know that. And he's not really known as a fly fisherman these days, but he he is responsible for so much of of what we now know as the sport of saltwater fly fishing. But, maybe maybe you I'm sure you came across, you know, kind of a timeline of how this all happened.

Michael Fowlkes: It it's all it's all a little bit blurred, to be honest with you. I mean, there's really not no one ever actually sat down and said, this is how we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna document the evolution of the sport. There the the evolution of the sport came from passion. So guys were passionate about fishing, and they needed bigger, better, stronger reels. They needed a drag system. Like William Bo Chen came up with the Star Drag in the 1919 I can't even remember the exact date, but it was the early nineteen hundreds. He came up with the Star Drag. Before that, they were using strips of leather that they'd put a they'd mount across the rear spacer bar and then push down with their thumb to try and slow the fish down. And in the meantime, it was a one to one direct drive on the handle. So when the fish when when the fish was running out, that handle was spinning backwards. And the tuna club actually had a physician on staff to to repair broken fingers because they just get mauled. That's right. So, you know, the tackle evolved out of passion, and so there really wasn't, like, a a written documented history of how all these pieces came together. But, Flip Pallet, for example, talks about Lefty being his mentor and how Lefty basically brought brought Flip into the sport, and and Flip just owes so much to to Lefty. And so it's just sort of it's

Tom Rowland: past Lefty has always said in all of his books that Joe Brooks was his mentor.

Michael Fowlkes: Exactly. Exactly. And and Joe Brooks and and, Charlie Evits was and and and and, Ted Williams, they were they were they were the they were the three Musketeers. I mean, those guys were were everywhere. And with with, Ted Williams' exposure, you know, as as one of the greatest baseball hitters that's ever lived, And then Joe Brooks is experienced and then Charlie shooting all these pictures and writing stories about it in the Met. It's just exploded. So I think the Met was really ground zero or the center, of the sport as it evolved. And I I know the West Palm Beach Fishing Club has has paid tribute to, the sport throughout its its conception and continues to do so today. And, and it's just it's, it really is like you've done in your podcast, Tom. You take the knowledge that you have and you share it with individuals, unedited. You basically, here it is. Try this. Somebody was asking about, what did you call it? A a chicken rig?

Tom Rowland: Chicken rig. Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: We have a thing called a a a ganyan out here where we'll put four or five hooks on and drop down for for deepwater rockfish As you're going, you know, five, six hundred feet down, even deeper, and, you know, one drop for one hook? No. Let's put five hooks on there. And and and, you know, it's regulated in terms of how many hooks you can have now and how deep and size and all that, which is I'm all for. Because I think management through science is the key to the future of the sport. But, it it it it it's you know, on our coast, we fish spotted bay bass up here in Newport in a way that they don't fish in San Diego. It's comp and they have spotted bay bass down there, but they just fish them differently. So and and even if you get up to Ventura, there's a different style of fishing that's used, not only inshore, but also offshore. So it's every region, I think, adapts to its own specific needs and and conditions.

43:52 · Michael Lerner, the IGFA, and the Met

Tom Rowland: Where what, role did the IGFA play, and and when did they come around?

Michael Fowlkes: I think it was in 1936. Don't quote me exactly, but I believe it was in the in the mid nineteen thirties. Michael Lerner got together and said we need to we need to create a a a central location to document, and it was set up to, to protect the species, to protect the sport, to preserve its history, and to provide a a source for world records. And they set certain angling standards. A lot of those which were based on the tuna club's original standards, and then they've they've they've since then had been the absolute industry leaders throughout the world. The IGFA is the single number one source for the history of the sport and also for the preservation of its future.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. And what do you did you come across, like, the the story of the Met and how that kind of went away? Because I don't know I don't think there is a Met tournament anymore.

Michael Fowlkes: You know what? I'd have to check. I I I I thought it was still in existence today, but I'm not a 100% sure.

Tom Rowland: If it is, it's it's nothing like what it once was.

Michael Fowlkes: No. It was fishing fishing back in the night late nineteen forties, post World War, nineteen forties and through the fifties and into the early sixties. Fishing was enjoyed by tens of millions of anglers up and down all the coast and across the entire continent. Freshwater bass fishing, for example, you know, we we we were fortunate enough to have a couple of gentlemen. One of them is, the name of doctor Terry Battisti and also, Ken Duke. Those two guys have forgotten more about bass fishing than most people ever know. And and and and the evolution of that that species and how it was transported from South Florida where it was originated, I mean, that's where those fish were were born and raised, and there was really no other bass in The United States other than South Florida. They started using bucket brigades and putting these fingerlings into milk milk, you know, those little big milk containers, putting them on covered wagons, and eventually on trains, and moving them across the country and introducing bass to to the rest of the country. And bass is one of the most adaptive and and hardcore species that we know of, and they adapted really well. And now bass fishing is hands down the most popular species that we fish with, for our country, and they are, a phenomenal fish. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And it's

Michael Fowlkes: evident by the this where the sport is today.

46:28 · Freshwater Legends and the Tackle Revolution

Tom Rowland: I mean, a lot of what we've talked about so far has been been, you know, mostly orient saltwater fishing because that's, you know, what what I'm interested in now, and it sound sounds like that's what your main interest is. But I grew up fresh freshwater fishing, and I started my career as a fly fishing guide in in freshwater on in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. So I I do appreciate the the freshwater as much as the saltwater. It just I don't know. When I think about the history of of fishing, I immediately think about Florida and just the records and the number of records because that's what was going on. It was it was coming to its end when I first started when I first showed up in Key West. It was it was kind of at the tail end of the heyday of of this record setting frenzy that was going on. And you had people like Ralph Delph and Robert Trosset and Jose Wahebe and Kenny Harris and and, so many more that were setting, you know, hundreds of world records. I have no idea how many Ralph Delph did, but the last time I did a podcast with Robert Trusted, I think he had 248 world records to his credit.

Michael Fowlkes: 240

Tom Rowland: That's for his clients mostly. I mean, he may have had some of those himself, but he he was responsible for 248, I think, and that it could have been 02/2008. I don't know. It could have been it was some it was well over 200. And, and and that that became, like, the style of fishing that, you know, not only can we go out and have a great day, but we can set a world record. I'll show you. I'll put you on the fish.

Michael Fowlkes: I'll show you how to do it.

Tom Rowland: The you're gonna have to be good enough to to catch them. And and, that, you know, that was amazing because that that's just an amazing time of of sport fishing to be able to see records like that. A world record coming across the dock at Oceanside Marina every day pretty much between the group of people that were there. And can you imagine the competitive environment that was fostered at that marina with those particular all alpha dudes down there all set in world records all the time. I mean, what a what a time Yeah. For fishing, and what a time for learning.

Michael Fowlkes: Yes. Absolutely.

Tom Rowland: That's what I like about the records and and the tournaments and all of that stuff is that it supercharges the learning, and it supercharges the sport. And it makes the sport jump decades ahead because people are actually, you know, trying to get a little edge on their competitors or whatever, which actually makes the sport jump forward, you know, exponentially. I wonder though if if, like, when you look at your completed work, you've got the history of sport fishing, basically, a to z, 12 part series. Were there two or three people that really stood out to you that were that were two or three of the most important people in the history of sport fishing and one?

Michael Fowlkes: I would say Joan and Lee Wolf.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Good

Michael Fowlkes: ones. Were instrumental in the evolution of fly fishing. The Orvis family, Mary Orvis was the first woman to ever document flies and actually hand drew, baits that were matching the hatch and were able to then identify this bait as being, you know, a nymph, whatever. And and and the Orbis family really helped, move the sport forward by cataloging the different types of flies. And Orbis was one of the first guys to do a mail order catalog.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: And then Johnny Morris followed that up with his with his business when his dad said, yeah. You can have eight feet of shelf space in the back of my liquor store just to sell a few baits. And that's how Johnny got started. And then, you know, the Bass Pro catalog, and it's you know, the rest is history. So it's just I I would say that Lee and Joan and Lee Wolf were instrumental, in the fly fishing end of it. I think Tommy Gifford was instrumental on the saltwater end. And, you know, Michael Lerner was another big player, that was instrumental in in the evolution of the sport. William Beauchene, obviously, with the invention of the star drag. Interesting fact about William Beauchene, he had so many people help him, like George Farnsworth and and eight Cox, the real maker out here on the West Coast, evolve and build this thing that he never patented it because he felt like everybody had contributed it. So he never patent the star drag.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Michael Fowlkes: And everybody else did. I mean, they they all jumped on board as soon as they could. But but it's just that it's that transition of knowledge and the willingness to share it. Like you said, tournaments, you're always looking for that competitive edge. You You know, what are we doing different? You know, what can we do that gives us a little edge? The evolution of fluorocarbon. I I thought Spectra Spectra's changed the whole game. You know, you don't need 16 knot reels anymore. You can you can put 130, 150 pound string on a little bass reel for all intent and purposes, and and the guts will hold up for it. So

Tom Rowland: That's right.

Michael Fowlkes: The evolution from bamboo and wooden rods into fiberglass is all documented. The evolution of bass boats with Skeeter, in the nineteen fifties was all documented. So, you know, Forest Woods, all these guys that have stepped up and just said, I I think I can make a better, a a better gadget.

Tom Rowland: Yep. That was my next question. You covered a lot of it, but I was wondering if one kind of technology stood out that made the biggest leap in in either making fishing available to more people or just making us able to catch fish that we were never able to catch before.

Michael Fowlkes: I think the I think the, you know, I think the biggest, I think the evolution of the tackle, the evolution of of the old Kentucky bait casters, in the eighteen hundreds into the star drags, and then, you know, the evolution of of the drag systems, and then the evolution of going from linen line and silk lines into the first Dacron lines, in the nineteen thirties, forties, and then the evolution of Dacron into into monofilament and then monofilament into spectrum spectrum. So I think those those those those are are it's those are landmark moments, watermark moments when you go fishing with a cotton piece of cotton string into a spectra. Those are huge.

Tom Rowland: What about electronics? Did you come across, like, the the birth of electronics?

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. The the little green machine, the first, the first

Tom Rowland: My grandfather had one of those. I don't know if it's true. Yeah. The Lorentz little name, Daryl Lorentz. He has to be

Michael Fowlkes: Daryl Lorentz. It was a little green machine. That was the first electronics. It was, you know, navy based. Everything basically, all our all our electronic equipment has evolved from the military. And what we have today is is you know, you've you've read the stories. They're they're wanting to ban forward scanning sonars and things on bass boats because they it's an unfair advantage to the fish. But you look at the technology we have today. I grew up fishing with a with a compass and a and a sextant. You know? We had to do dead reckoning when we went offshore. So every hour, you were marking the chart based on your speed and your drift and thinking, okay. In the middle of the night, I think we probably are here. And I think we're probably here. And you have these little dots that you mark every hour to tell you where you are. Now you just turn around. Oh, let's go home. Boom boom. We'll be home in two hours and forty eight minutes.

Tom Rowland: You know? I see. Well, I know. And when we when we go back to the the days when those guys were setting all those records and Ralph Delph was pioneering the Florida Keys, they were doing the same thing. You know, they would go with a stopwatch and the RPM on your on your motor because that was more reliable than the than the, than the speed. At least that's what I was told, that it was a stopwatch and the RPM on your motor. And we'd go this long at this direction and then, you know, turn.

Michael Fowlkes: Spot. You're gonna be on a wreck. You're gonna be on a on a high spot.

Tom Rowland: It's just incredible, really.

54:33 · Zane Grey's 180 Days and the Fight for Clean Water

Michael Fowlkes: I mean Zane Grey, we have some you talked about some of the older footage. We've we've got the original 35 millimeter film that Zane Grey's film crew shot with him and captain Mitchell down in Australia and New Zealand Yeah. In nineteen twenty twenties and thirties catching the first thousand pound fish, thousand pound marlin ever captured on a rod and reel. We have that original footage from the from the same great state. So you get to see the first marlin, the first thousand pound marlin ever caught on a rod and reel in real in in real footage.

Tom Rowland: I wonder how many they had to hook before they got them.

Michael Fowlkes: Interesting fact is that he I think he I think I I can't remember the exact quote, but I think he fished for, like, a hundred and eighty days and didn't get a fish out there until he got the fish of a lifetime.

Tom Rowland: I wonder if he didn't land a fish or if he just I mean, certainly, they were hooking fish.

Michael Fowlkes: They I I don't think so. I think the bait was real you know, I think from what I could what are we ascertained from reading, you know, the the, you know, Anglers El Dorado and some of other Zane's books. And he wrote he wrote stories. He didn't really document, you know, he wasn't like a fact finder. He was talking about the sport from his heart. So we talked about the essence of the sport Yeah. And what it took, the challenges. And so as we were piecing things together, it was, I I lost thought. Sorry, Tom. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Oh, we were just talking about how many fish he might have hooked before he he landed that one, and you were thinking maybe that was the that was it.

Michael Fowlkes: Well, I I think that was

Tom Rowland: Is the one.

Michael Fowlkes: I'm sure they hooked and landed a few other fish, but I know he spent a lot of days of toil out there without getting a single bite, until that that one fish showed up. You you you jumped down to, Cabo Blanco, Peru in the nineteen fifties. It was where the Humboldt and the Ecotoren Currents meet, and there was an upwelling right there. And it wasn't even on any map. It became the the pinnacle of big game fishing. They had I mean, I don't even know how many thousand pound fish they caught off in Cabo Blanco in the in the early nineteen fifties. And it was just blacks, blues, striped, tuna, big eye. I mean, it was it was unbelievable. Acres and acres and acres of of anchovyta and bait boiling. And then the commercial guys figured out that there was a bunch of bait there, so they came in and scooped it all up. And within years, it became a desert. Mhmm. So it became the most prolific fishery in the world when you take away all the bait to a desert. So I think, again, we keep going back to conservation, and I posted a a a post this morning about water in in California because, obviously, we've had a tremendous

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: Horrendous experience here, and it's still ongoing. But without water, we have no fish.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: And without clean water and healthy oceans, we have no fish. And somebody wrote in, why are you posting this political stuff? I don't wanna have anything to do with it. Just post fishing. And I said, well, you know, normality bias prevents us from thinking that something might happen just because it's never happened before. We can't fathom that it could happen. And the extreme environmentalists today, I I did a wonderful interview with Bill Shed whose family started AFCO, and they've donated millions of dollars under the table quietly, to conservation efforts. And Bill Shedd said the single greatest threat that we're facing as a sport today is from the extreme environmentalist, and they wanna ban the sport of fishing. They wanna make it an illegal activity. And so I know none of us like to talk about politics when they're fishing. It's the last thing on our minds. But if we don't let our voices be heard, there's a really good chance that, you know, this sport could could get pushed off the charts. So

Tom Rowland: What do you think, with the with the certainly, you saw some other threats to either access or or or fishing rights or privileges, throughout the history of sport fishing? What do you think, was a, a situation that we overcame? Did you come across any of those?

Michael Fowlkes: I think we're learning from our mistakes, and I think a lot of stuff is a lot of regulations may have been put into place, without scientific data, without without science that was more political. And and and a lot of those, I think, are are like, we have closure zones out here on the West Coast where they've closed, like, eight miles of area. And that's great. But I think rather than just leave that section permanently closed, if they could do a thing like they used to do after the great depression, in the in the dust storms, whereas you do crop crop migration where you take an area and close it, let it heal up, let it rejuvenate itself, and then move that area up eight miles.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: The guys can now fish the the the productive zone and let this other zone heal up. So I think there's a lot of science that's gonna go into it. Oregon, for example, has done a phenomenal job on their on their fisheries management, especially with the sturgeon and the steelhead and the trout where they manage by science. And again, you've got a species that's coming from the saltwater into the freshwater, so it can be it can be counted. It's easier to count something that you've got a a funnel where it all has to go through to get back to its birthplace. And I think, I think management through science is the key to the future. And I think as anglers, we just need to make our our legislators and the lawmakers in our regions, in our local communities, in our states, as well as on the federal level, aware of the fact that we as sport fishermen have worked toward conservation since the eighteen hundreds. We're a voice of reason, and you cannot hurt a fishery with a rod, a reel, and a piece of string. Can't do it. I don't care how good you are. You cannot hurt that fishery as an individual. But you put hundreds of miles of long lines and gill nets and and and traps out there, you can you can decimate a fishery. So the legislator, the lawmakers need to identify that sport fishermen are not the same as a commercial fisherman. And our commercial fishermen today, I tip my hat to them because they are the most regulated fishing industry in the world if you're an American commercial fisherman. And they have done everything they can to fish and cons and and conservative orientated sustainable methods. Mhmm. And and I think that's the key. And also, Bill pointed out that aquaculture, I think, is is coming our way. The need for protein in the in the world's off the charts, and the ability to the oceans to produce that amount of protein on their own, I think hit a hit a turning point in the mid eighteen hundred or nineteen nineteen eighties. And so the augmenting our our protein sources, with with, with fish through aquaculture, I think, is gonna be a big wave of the future.

Tom Rowland: That's not necessarily good for the native stocks as we've found.

Michael Fowlkes: No. It's it's, I I think there's, you know, they're looking at ways to, to to prevent, diseases from and fish and also a way to feed them. They've come up with a way AFCO's come up with a way now to to utilize the entrails and the guts and all the skin and all the stuff that doesn't go to the flare, go go to the table to make food. Yeah. So it's it's a balancing act, but I think that's the the future. I think we're gonna see a lot of aquaculture in the future.

62:01 · Ending the Series: "I Ran Out of Money"

Tom Rowland: Interesting. So it was easy to for you to tell where to start because you start at the first the first recorded fish, the the fur the the oldest piece of literature, the oldest photography, the oldest film you could find. Well, how do you choose where to end this 12 part series? It sounds like it just continued to kinda go on and on and on.

Michael Fowlkes: I like you said, you pointed out about the evolution of sport boats. I mean, that could be a whole documentary

Tom Rowland: Sure.

Michael Fowlkes: Film or series in and of itself. We started with the first known painting of a rod and reel, which came from the Song dynasty in March in China, which was the first known, drawing of a reel. Cleopatra, there's there's pictures of drawings of Cleopatra fishing with a stick and a line in the Nile River. So, you know, as we evolved every as we evolved through this, we tried to get as much information out as we could in a compelling, interesting, and entertaining way. It's like your your podcast and everything you've done, Tom. You entertain first, educate secondly.

Tom Rowland: Well, I'm not sure how good of an entertainer I am.

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, you are. You because people, if you're if you're being entertained, if you're engaged, and you're being given information, you're gonna learn from that. If you say, hey. Let's let's talk about in 1912, this happened. Nobody cares.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: This happened because of this. Oh, when did that happen? You know? So you you you entertain through education, and you've done a phenomenal job in that. And and a lot of your shows do the same thing on Waypoint.

Tom Rowland: Well, I appreciate that. That's cool. So you didn't decide you didn't tell me how you decided to end it and where you decided to end it.

Michael Fowlkes: Well, I ran out of money.

Tom Rowland: Oh, there you go. That's the easiest way. That's the way most most prod, you know, projects end, whether that's re re renovating a house or Yeah. Or something. You could continue to go on and on forever, but eventually, you run out of money.

Michael Fowlkes: Run out of money. And and so we we ended on I think it's probably the most powerful, and and it's it's I'm extremely proud of the entire series, and I'm honored to have been able to do it. But I'm very proud of the final chapter, which is conservation, children, and the future of the sport. And we talk about mistakes have been made in the past and how those have been mitigated and looking forward to it. And Flip Pallet sums it up best. He says, he's most worried about youth and introducing children to the sport because if you don't love something, you have no reason to protect it.

Tom Rowland: That's true. I I believe that. That's that's the reason why I'm I'm I feel so strongly about, fighting for access.

Michael Fowlkes: Access. Absolutely. If you

Tom Rowland: cannot get into a place, then you no longer have, well, I mean, eventually, yeah. Eventually, no one cares. Yep. But if it's some place that you go, even if you're not allowed to fish there, you can still go there. But when they shut a place off completely, that is that is not not said at all.

Michael Fowlkes: It's criminal. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It's criminal. And rarely, in my experience, and I've said this a lot lately, but in my experience, the ones that I have seen closed have not reopened even though we've been promised that they will reopen. And you're not supposed to go in there with fishing gear, but you can go in there with a jet ski or you can go in there with other craft, but you cannot go in there even if you have fishing rods on board, which, you know, you're just it's it's almost like you're trying to keep out the people that care most about it.

Michael Fowlkes: Exactly. Exactly. That's that normalcy bias. We just think it can't happen because it hasn't happened before, but look at what's happening.

Tom Rowland: It has happened before.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. It has happened. It's happening out here on the West Coast.

Tom Rowland: That's right. You can look at that, and you can look at many other other, examples of where it has happened before. And then, you know, if you if you look at it in a way that, you know, well, I only practice catch and release, or I always use barbless hooks. Well, it's a slippery slope. Once you say you can't do this and you can't do that, the next thing is, well, you can't use barbless hooks, and and we're not even interested in we don't care if you're catching and releasing. That's We

Michael Fowlkes: don't watch we don't watch. Yeah. They they that that extreme left environmentalist, and I don't like me to keep going back to that, but the extreme environmentalist are bent on the fact that man should only engage in nature as an observer. That we shouldn't participate. We should be able to watch and look, but we shouldn't participate. And that is so diabolically opposed to the DNA of who we are as human beings.

Tom Rowland: That's right.

Michael Fowlkes: It's in our DNA. Hunting, fishing, farming, gathering, survival, that's all part of who we are as human beings. And in today's society, we don't get to touch base with that very often, and fishing is one of the ways that we can do it and do it with barbless hooks and catch and release where, you know, we're not necessarily hurting the fish. We're just engaging in that that that, you know, that bite, getting that thing to bite.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: Nothing greater than that.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, not only there's there's a lot of, side effects that come with that of being outside in the in the sunshine and getting vitamin d and being in touch with your with your, surroundings, teaching your children about your your environment and survival and just thriving, not not just survival, but the the need that we have to be outdoors and to be connected with nature. And fishing has always been, for me, a great way to do that, whether it's with my kids or what my dad did for me or my grandfather did for me, what so many people's grandfather, father, mother, whoever it is, did for them. And, you know, what Flip was saying is is very important that, you know, it is it is incredibly important for us to try to introduce people, young people, kids in particular, to fishing because or their parents. Like, your your kid wants to go fishing? Here, let me take you and show you how easy it is for you to go to this little pond down the street, and then you can take him or I'll take them. Yep. But, you know, it's even better if you get the parents involved because the parents, that's the way it should go down. Because now now you've reduced this this intimidation factor or this pain in the ass factor that, you know, I I that's just easier to go to football games. It's easier to just watch TV. It's easier to just give them an iPad.

Michael Fowlkes: I'm glad you're not.

Tom Rowland: Is, but it's not better. Like

Michael Fowlkes: It's just easier.

Tom Rowland: It's easier. It is easier.

68:43 · Take a Kid Fishing — and a Treasure Trove of Old Lures

Michael Fowlkes: I I Tom, I'm with you a 100%. We have to figure out a way. Take a kid fishing. If nothing else, if you wanna help the sport, take a kid fishing. Even if it's for an afternoon with a bobber and a cane pole in a pond, it doesn't matter. Let the kid catch a fish.

Tom Rowland: Who was it that that ended every show that they said they said that? Was it Bill Dance? Take a kid fishing? I think it might have been. But then also, like, Jerry McKennis, he always ended up, ended all of his shows, and it was, like, dedicated to dad. He always had time to take me fishing

Michael Fowlkes: Yep.

Tom Rowland: Which both very powerful.

Michael Fowlkes: Sums it up. I used to do my show with CPR, catch, photograph, and release.

Tom Rowland: There you go.

Michael Fowlkes: You know? We all we all share one ocean, one planet, and we have only one chance. So do your part. Make a difference. Well

Tom Rowland: and in your opinion, what what is the biggest thing that you could do?

Michael Fowlkes: Right now, I think there's the biggest thing you can do is take a kid fishing.

Tom Rowland: I like it.

Michael Fowlkes: Honestly, at the grassroots, it doesn't you know, you're not donating money. I mean, I I think ASA, the American Sport Fish Association, has their their their, Keep America Fishing program, which is all youth orientated, if you wanna make a a financial donation, CCA, another one, organizations that handle the political parts of fishing and the business that we don't wanna think about. Right. I don't wanna think about it. I don't want it in my mind. I just wanna go out there and have a great time.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Michael Fowlkes: But I can do that because I've donated to these people that are actually willing to go to Sacramento and to go to Washington and to petition and say, this is the facts. These are the facts that we need to look at. And, I think, you know, a donation to CCA or Keep America Fishing, American Sport Fishing Association, or any local act any local group because, you know, you talk about, oh, this doesn't affect me because I'm a 100 miles up the stream from what these guys are complaining about, but it does affect you. So just if there's regional local areas that you're concerned with, participate. Let your voice be heard. And regardless of you if you do that, take a kid fishing.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Even better. That's the easiest thing you could do and probably the most effective.

Michael Fowlkes: And the most fulfilling.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: And it's a gift that you're gonna give you're gonna you're gonna give that gift to that person for the rest of their lives.

Tom Rowland: That's true. I mean, when you really talk to, you know, people that are that are big time fishing people, big time fishermen, big time guides, big time celebrities, big time whatever they are in fishing, tournament winners, whoever, or just a guy that really likes to fish, if you ask them about their background, almost all of them in my experience, if you were to really dig in, they could tell you one experience that changed everything for them. Like, one particular day where they went and they caught this fish or they lost this fish, a lot of them are losing the fish. Absolutely. Not even getting there. It's seeing this fish that was 10 times bigger than any other fish that they had seen before, and that did it. And it could be any trip, and it could be any fish, and it could be in any state, and it could be with any tackle. But there there are so many situations where someone goes fishing, they see something, and it forever changes their fishing life. Now they're in. They're hooked.

Michael Fowlkes: Yep.

Tom Rowland: They're in. That would then and that can be the best thing you've ever done for that person or the worst.

Michael Fowlkes: I'll disagree with that. Actually, it's the best thing you could ever do for somebody. It is. You just get to the sport.

Tom Rowland: And then from then on, you're you're on this Hook. Of trying to find that thing again

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Which maybe you can, maybe you can't. But, anyway, so your documentary, it's out now. You can get it through the app, and, tell them again how you how you find that.

Michael Fowlkes: It it's the historyofsportfishing.com.

Tom Rowland: Okay. Historyofsportfishing.com. What about your social media? What's that?

Michael Fowlkes: It's all under the historyofsportfishing.com.

Tom Rowland: Okay. You go there. You check it out. And And,

Michael Fowlkes: and if you if you sign up and you look at it, I'd love to hear your thoughts because this like you were saying earlier, this this is an evolving project. We've got the first 12 done. I think there's another 100 to do after this.

Tom Rowland: Alright.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. But So please send me your comments. Let me know what you think. Good, bad, or indifferent, right or wrong, like it or hate it. You know? Let me know. And Where

Tom Rowland: would they tell you that? On your social media or is there an

Michael Fowlkes: on your social media.

Tom Rowland: Okay.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Cool. Yep. Well, I'm sure you'll hear from somebody. Hopefully, it'll be great.

Michael Fowlkes: I hope so.

Tom Rowland: But yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on and telling us the stories, man. I I enjoyed it. And I love all It

Michael Fowlkes: was absolutely my pleasure.

Tom Rowland: Days. I wanna see what all that is in the back. I see incredible reels and and looks like schematic drawings, and then you got rods all over the ceiling. I I can't tell what else is back there, but, man, it's like a treasure trove of There's a Man, look at that. That's incredible.

Michael Fowlkes: Yeah. I'm sorry.

Tom Rowland: That's incredible. How long did it take you to put all that together?

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, I started collecting when I was, I started collecting when I was a kid. I screwed up my camera here.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's okay. We're good.

Michael Fowlkes: I started collecting when I was a kid. My mom said, I think you need a hobby. I said, oh, I don't want a hobby. She goes, yeah. You need to collect something. I said, no. I don't wanna collect anything. We're at a garage sale, and I saw these old old wooden bass lures. I went, oh, those are cool. She goes, oh, my. They're 10¢ apiece. So I started collecting, artificial bass baits. That's, fifty, sixty years ago, and it just kind of evolved from that. My wife loves to collect antiques. We go to swap meets, garage sales. And I'd look down the swap meet rows, and I'd see a rod sticking up, and I'd just run to that spot. So

Tom Rowland: So are there is it are there any of those lures that are very, very valuable these days?

Michael Fowlkes: Oh, the the bass lures. There are bass lures that are extremely valuable.

Tom Rowland: I have to show you some of the ones that I have. I have some from my my grandfather still in the box and everything, and, those are the ones that I thought would be I mean, there were plenty of old rusty ones that I didn't think would be worth anything, but I kept some of them anyway. But I do have some, like, really old ones. Like, really old I think it looks like the first bomber box. Right? Like, really old ones.

Michael Fowlkes: But Condition is everything. So Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Oh, I'm sure. And I don't really wanna get rid of them, but I just wondered if, you know, you see a lot of these things like old record albums and stuff, and people tell you, oh, some of those are really valuable. And then you take them to the record store, and they're like, I'll give you 5¢ a piece for them.

Michael Fowlkes: $5 for it.

Tom Rowland: $5 for the whole lot.

Michael Fowlkes: But but But

Tom Rowland: that's I I like those old lures. It's really cool. And I

Michael Fowlkes: love them so much. So with the with the glass eyes and Mhmm. Jobs all hand painted. I mean, e eBay is probably the the the the gauge of a a a a particular lure's value, in the marketplace.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Michael Fowlkes: That's something you wanna wanna figure out if it's worth anything. Take a picture of it, post it on eBay.

Tom Rowland: EBay. Yeah. That's the way.

Michael Fowlkes: I reserve on it or something. So you you know, you know, don't let somebody steal it from you because their lure collectors are collectors are out there always looking for that gold find.

Tom Rowland: Oh, I'm sure they are, just like anything else. Anyway, Michael, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it, and, I appreciate all the people that that showed up. We actually had a couple. So, it seems like this live idea is a pretty good idea. I like the, interaction with with the people that are listening, so we'll probably Thank

Michael Fowlkes: you for writing in and asking the questions.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Cool. Alright, Michael. We'll see you later. Thank you.

Michael Fowlkes: Thanks, Tom. It's a pleasure.