Monte Burke | Pete Carroll, Steve Huff & The Obsession That Separates the Truly Great | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 1006

Monte Burke: Pete Carroll, Steve Huff, and the Obsession That Separates the Truly Great [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Tom Rowland Podcast, brought to you by Star Brite. We're brought to you by Star Brite today as always. Star Brite is the maker of an awesome line of products to take care of your boat. That's where I use it most. Whether it's the Salt Off product or any of the boat-cleaning products, Star Brite has you covered. Definitely check them out. They're not only a great company for, uh, the products that they have, but they also do a tremendous amount in conservation, and that is certainly important to us all. I'm Monte Burke, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast. Monte, how are you, man? I'm great, man. How you doing? I'm, I'm great. I'm doing great. I, uh, I, I got the books in the mail. You have been incredibly busy since the last time that we, that we spoke. And, and I was s- surprised too. I look back, it's been almost five years. Since- Five years ... since we talked, yeah, since Lords of the Fly- Yeah ... which is crazy. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And [00:01:00] then I had... I wouldn't... I'm happy that those next two books came out, but I wouldn't suggest a future Monte- ... to do two books in six months is, uh- Two books in six months ... is, is a little bit overwhelming. Yeah. And two things with two, you know, fishing and college football. Right. So I've kind of been going up and like this, divided, you know, so for the last- Well, I'm interested in that. Do you, do you think that, um, being divided like that, do you think that your workflow was better, you're more creative, you're getting away from one subject and moving into the other? Or is it better to focus on just one? Uh, I think it's- Better to have two things, for me anyway. Really? It's so fun to dive into one thing. It's a little bit like having a season, right? I mean, that's why the NFL- Yeah ... and college football's so popular is because there is an off-season. Like, NFL doesn't really let you have an off-season, but there really is one. And so you crave it, right? So by the time I'm done with the college football book, I can't wait to get back to writing about, uh, uh, fly-fishing. Yeah. In fact, when I had kind of done the... You know, you have, like, about a month and a [00:02:00] half of crazy promotion after a book comes out, and then it- things kinda slow down a little bit, and the minute that slowed down, I wrote... I had this crazy spree. I wrote three fly-fishing stories. It was so fun to kinda go back to that. And the same, same with fly f- you know, same with the fly-fishing book. When I'm totally immersed in one, get it out, and you know, but then I'm ready to kinda go back to, to college football or some other subject, you know? So when you go from football to, to fishing, had you already kinda been thinking about those things- Yeah and you just needed to get it all out? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's... You, you're always... Yeah, I've got, right now I've got, like, I don't know, six kind of half-done, not even half-done projects, right? They're 5% done, that I've just been thinking about, you know. Uh, and you just, you know, w- when you get fully immersed in a book, uh, you forget everything else, uh, in your life, really. Everything that you do kind of feeds into that book. So then, you know, but when that's done, I come back to those ideas. I've got a whole sheet where I go back and, and kind of look and see which ones are, are most promising. And, um, it's funny, a lot of people ask me, you know, "Why college football, [00:03:00] and why-" Yeah "fly fishing?" March. And my mother has a great answer to that. She always would say, uh, she's from Alabama. She would always say, uh, "Baby, I'm just so happy that you spent, that you put to use all those hours you spent watching college football and fishing." And she's right. I mean, that's- ... that's pretty much what I did when I was a kid, you know? It's like I just, I mean, I played sports, all that sort of stuff, too, but I was really just totally obsessed with those two things. Well, I was ex- obsessed with, um, watching fishing, too. My dad and I used to watch a lot of fishing on Saturday mornings and stuff. But it, it, the precursor to that was, or maybe right after, was professional wrestling. Like, the fishing shows would come on- Yeah ... and then professional wrestling would come on. And so I kinda hung around. Yeah. I was, I was a real wrestler, you know, a amateur wrestler, so I wasn't all that interested in professional wrestling. But we only had three channels on TV back then. Yeah. You're, you know, you just kinda hang, hang in there. And so I guess if I became a writer, I would be writing about fishing and professional wrestling- ... and college football. I like- All, all- I like all three ... oddly similar, [00:04:00] uh, bass fishing shows and, and pro wrestling. Yeah. Uh, in a weird way. Yeah. Well, they know where they a- they know the audience, right? Yep, they sure do. So they, we'll put this on right after or right before. Yeah. Um, but your, your, you, this is not your f- first foray into, uh, into football. You wrote about Nick Saban before. Mm-hmm. We talked about that last time. How do you, how do you identify this story with Pete Carroll and then also get the, get the access- To everyone that it takes to write this story Yeah. So this was kinda, this was a weird one 'cause it w- it, it's, it's sort of, it's not really a biography of Pete Carroll. It's like a biography of a certain time. Right. I mean, I do start with him being born and where he grew up and all kind of stuff like that, but it sorta stops when he leaves for USC. There's a little bit about the Seahawks. Um, I, I just looked at this ... You know, I, I love writing about college coaches, so it is very Pete Carroll focused because he's, you know, obviously the kind of, you know, the main character of, uh, this nine-year window when he was at USC. Um, so coaches to me are always so [00:05:00] fascinating. In fact, the other, uh, there's one other college football book I did was also about a coach as well. So, uh, but I looked at this, this USC chapter of Pete Carroll's life and just thought it was so fascinating, um, you know, this kind of s- singular time in college football that had never happened before and will never happen again. I mean, this was a ... You know, Carroll came in, uh, with his tail between his legs. He'd been fired by the Jets. He'd been fired by the Patriots. He'd taken a, he'd had a year out of football. Uh, and then he took over a program. He was the third or fourth candidate. Uh, you know, they wanted other people. Took over a program that it was also downtrodden. It was a lot like when Nick Saban went to Alabama. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, a program looking for it to re- revive its previous, its past glory. And then, you know, something really magic happens, right? I mean, he takes some of the old parts that he was given by the previous coaches, m- Troy Polamalu and Carson Palmer, and starts this build, and then they win two titles in a row. They come within six inches of winning three in a row, which has never [00:06:00] happened, uh, in the modern era of, uh, college football. Uh, and then, you know, there's the scandal at the end. So it makes for a writer, it's a great kind of narrative arc, right? It kind of like there's this build and then there's this, you know, huge fall at the end. And, you know, there were no NFL teams in LA at the time. So, you know, college football, I always think of college football as being kind of like a, a sport unlike the NFL, a sport of kind of the medium to small towns. You know, you think of S- Tuscaloosa, State College. Mm-hmm. Uh, USC's different. They're in Los Angeles. And when they were there, there were no NFL teams there, and they started winning, and all of a sudden celebrities, they just loved Carroll's energy. They loved the, these, these players, the electricity of these players like Reggie Bush and Matt Leinart, and, you know, all of a sudden you had the Fonz, Arnold, uh, Will Ferrell, Snoop Dogg, not, not just going to games and being on the sidelines, like actually going to practice. Mm. Carroll also had open practices, which was really weird, totally opposite of Nick Saban. Um, [00:07:00] so to me it was like this, this crazy kind of singular era that was just wild. Um, and you know, it, it, which we'll, I don't think we'll ever see again, even in an NIL era, just 'cause there's so much movement, and there's so much Like, there's not as much of attachment to some of the players as there used to be. Um, so you know, and in fact it got to the point where, there was a point when Reggie Bush and Matt Leinart, and particularly Matt Leinart, were more famous than some of the celebrities who were coming- ... to, to see them. I mean, I, I went back for research. I went back and looked at all these old issues of People Magazine and Us Weekly, you know, which were kinda like the TMZ's back in the day, and it would be like, you know, Robert Redford was seen out dining somewhere, and then Matt Leinart was seen at, uh, Nobu, you know, with Paris Hilton. You know, it was like this just cra- like, that- it just doesn't happen that much anymore. We're, we're sort of, everything's kinda bifurcated, you know? Every- everyone's attention's somewhere else. And, you know, you go back to that USC-Texas game, which some consider to be the best one ever played in college football. It's the most watched title game- Really? ... of all time. Yep. [00:08:00] Wow. Uh, so anyway, so that, th- I, I, I just, I'm really attracted to football coaches in general. Um, I love college football, but college football coaches, uh, in, in specific. And, uh, and so that was kind of a no-brainer for me to really look into. What do you think it was about Pete Carroll? Was it something in his personality or his organization or his mindset that, that was able to turn that whole thing around for him? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, he, he, what he was was he was a completely unconventional coach. You know, he, he grew up in the Bay Area in San Francisco during the Summer of Love, was very influenced by that. Uh, you know, went to kind of like a college where they s- he studied Far Eastern mysticism and all these psychologists. And so he comes outta that, and he goes into f- into football coaching. He wa- he, like Saban, he wanted to be a, you know, he wanted to be something other than a, he was a mediocre college player who wanted to do something else, wanted to keep playing and wasn't good enough. Uh, so he kind of swallowed that and turned that into coaching. Uh, but he was always an un- he was unconventional from the start. He was a players' coach. [00:09:00] Hmm. Um, uh, which back then was a real pejorative term, you know? I mean, people, "Oh, God, a players' coach. That's the worst thing you could be." Well, say that, I mean, uh, describe that for somebody that might not know what a players' coach is. So he, he had one famous thing when he, in one of his first jobs, he, uh, was, he was coaching the secondary, and he was very frustrated with the way that it was all top-down stuff. It was all the coaches telling the players what to do, and he had one session that the head coach didn't know about where he had all of his secondary guys in a room. He said, "All right, guy- what do you guys wanna do? What do you, what do, what do you think we could do?" Hmm. And he sat and listened to them for, like, three hours, right? And they gave him all this input, and then he ran to the coach. He runs over to the head coach and says, "I, I just cracked the code. You know, we're, these guys are so energized. They're so excited." And he was like, and the head coach said, "Don't you ever listen to what they say." "You're the one who, who..." You know. So Carroll said he was a defensive genius, right? So he was kinda, he worked his way up the ranks. By the time he got to the Jets, which was his first head coaching job, he was still a players' coach. In fact, there's one, one of my favorite scenes in the book is he's standing up at his [00:10:00] introductory press conference, and he, he comes in. The first thing, he bounds in like a golden retriever, and the first thing he says is- ... "Gentlemen, there, there are no rules here. We're not gonna have any rules." And, and the, it, you know, the camera kinda pans to Leon Hess, who was this old school owner of the Jets, who's sitting there in his brown tweeds with his arms crossed, and he- he just, he's like, "Oh my..." You think it's an oh my God expression on his face. Like, what have I gotten myself into? He gets fired after a year of that. Goes to the Patriots, does the same thing. Uh, you know, lets the players kinda run a lot of what's going on, has a lot of fun, you know, builds a basketball court and plays basketball with his players and his coaches and stuff like that. W- wears flip-flops, rides his bike to practice, all this sort of stuff. Robert Kraft, who's the owner of the Patriots, had no idea what to do with this guy, so he fires him. And that just, it just worked in college, right? I mean, when he got to USC, first of all, this is, he was down to his third strike, right? If you get fired three times within that short period of time, you're an assistant coach for the rest of your life. So he was extra motivated, hired great people. Uh, but I think his sort of, [00:11:00] you know, the overwhelming sense I got from the people he coached at USC was that he made the game fun. And I think for, you know, college kids are younger, more impressionable. Back then, they, they, they were more captive. You know, I mean, they would stay for three or four years. Sure. Um, so you know, I think it just worked there, and he would later prove, of course, that it worked in the NFL with the Seahawks, but that was his kinda proving ground, and those kids who were so hungry to win, uh, you know, a, a, a, a program that was so hungry to win, fans that were so hungry to win, you know, it all kind of, it all worked. Hmm. That's amazing. And so you look at this and you... Do you need a publisher anymore with all of the, all of the books that you've written and everything? Yeah. I mean, I know you need- Yes ... a publisher for things, but I, I know that also one of the roles of a publisher is to tell you when, when this is a book. Like- Yeah, yeah ... do you need that anymore? Or like, do you- I do, yeah. I mean, and some, usually the publisher, it's, it's usually, well, the publisher will have the final word, but it, my gatekeeper is my agent- Okay ... who I love and who I've been with now for [00:12:00] 20-plus years, and you know, I pitch him ideas all the time. He takes like one out of four, right? One, he, he's just a, he, he's a great reader, and he has a real sense of what makes for a great book. So I, you know, I've pitched all kinds of ideas, and he's like, "Mm, I don't think that'll work." So that's my first, you know, barrier, and then I write a proposal, give it to him, and then he goes out and tries to sell it, and of course, that's where the rubber meets the road, right? That's where you've got- Yeah ... publishers, you know, chiming in on whether they think it's a book or not. But yeah, yeah, I still, I mean, you know... The, the, the great thing about this job is that, this is gonna sound weird to say, but the great thing about my job is it never gets easier. Um, in fact, in some ways it, it gets harder. I mean, I think you get better at the... You, you, you're probably better, a little better, I'm probably a little better now than I was 20 years ago at the, some of the technical aspects, but that cursor blinking up there in the left-hand corner- ... on a blank page still g- makes me feel exactly like it made me feel 25 years ago. Uh, and it doesn't, you know, everything you write is a, you know, unless you're plagiarizing or, God [00:13:00] forbid, using AI, everything you, you, which is plagiarism, by the way, uh, everything that you write is original, right? So it's, like, coming from your own head and, and it's, it's still really hard, but I love that because it's, it's, it's like this constant challenge, right? I mean, I've got a lot of friends now my age who have been in their law jobs or whatever, and they're bored out of their mind- Mm-hmm ... with their job. I'm not bored. I'm still Biting my fingernails, uh, when I'm thinking about an idea, wondering how the heck I'm gonna actually write this thing, like worried that I can't pull it off. You know, I mean, it's all that same, uh, those same emotions I went through, you know, 25 years ago when I published my first book. So- ... uh, I love it. That's, that's great. And then, um, you, you touched on something that is a theme right now for, for us. Um, as we go into this year, I've been asking a lot of people about a, uh, about what people think the... I mean, I feel like we're on a real crossroads right now. Um, kind of like I saw when, when the internet first came out, you're seeing [00:14:00] websites, you're seeing, you know, it move from, you know, chat rooms and message boards to basically to social media, and there was this big sweeping change that happened in a very short period of time, and I feel like we're, we're there again, but it's gonna be exponentially larger. But you have a very unique perspective on, on AI. Um, so I just wonder how, how you feel it- where we are with it right now, and where do you think that writers, um, are going with it? I mean, is... Would it... Let, let me ask you this. Would, would you think it would be plagiarism to, to take a lot of your thoughts and, and organize them in AI and then write, or do you use it at all? I, I don't use it at all. I mean, I think unintentionally, I just use it sometimes when I'm doing Google, right? Like, there's some AI- Yeah, yeah ... functions in that. But I purposely don't use it at all. I purposely don't read AI stuff. Uh, I don't want to... You know, I think it's already gonna... Writing is hard enough. It's al- it's gonna be harder when you [00:15:00] have to kinda write against AI. Mm-hmm. So, and, and I'll, I'll start this saying that I'm really biased against AI, AI because it is a threat to my job. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's a threat, you know, not necessarily to some of the books I've done, but some of the magazine stories. You know, I, I could see a, a magazine saying, "Well, you know, why send that Burt kid down to Chile and spend whatever amount of money when we can do this for... in 20 seconds with a prompt or whatever," right? So I just wanna make sure that I've noted my bias there. Right. Um, I, I, I do not like AI for a number of reasons. One is I feel like, you know, I... and I do get sometimes emails that have been sent to me where I check and tell they're AI. Uh, I think you've... You know, first of all, it is plagiarism. Ethan Hawke made this point. Uh, I don't know, I saw an interview he did. A- and it is plagiarism. It's presenting... It's the pres- presentation of work as your own that's not your own, right? You prompted it. Yeah, good for you, but you didn't write it, right? So it's pla- It, it, it is the definition of plagiarism. Second of all, I think, you know, just to hand over [00:16:00] our agency, like the act of writing, even the act of writing an email or act of writing a text is putting thoughts, is the, is the sort of mechanical part of, of, of, of thinking, right? When you sit down and you type something out, your brain is, is the biomechanical part of, of thinking, and I don't know why- For the life of me, we would want to give that over to machines, right? So, so if, if AI kind of goes to where, where I think it's going, it's pretty much gonna be, you know, machine writing talking to machine writing- Mm-hmm which takes all of the humanity out of it. Uh, and, you know, so, um, I, I, I don't like it in that respect at all. Uh, you know, I also don't like the fact that, um, and maybe this is getting a little deeper than you want, but I mean, it doesn't seem like the people who are running these AI companies are, are, are at all altruistic. I, I think they try to come across as they are, but- Mm-hmm ... you know what I mean? From what I've seen, it's like, you know, it's gonna take over all of these jobs. I have kids in college right now, you know, and I want them to have jobs when they come out. But all of the [00:17:00] entry-level jobs, uh, seem to, like they might get wiped off the face of the earth. Um, and you know, I, I, I think working, you know, I, I saw Marc Andreessen one time say, "Oh, it's gonna be great. You know, in 20 years no one's gonna have to work." Mm-hmm. And to me, that's a nightmare. Yeah. That is a nightmare. Work is what... Humans need purpose, right? The whole reason that there's a, uh, problems that we have now with social media and problems that we have now with people having to go to shrinks, all sorts of stuff like that, is g- is your loss of purpose. There's nothing better, and you know this as an angler and as someone who works out and, you know, who, who, you know, lives in, in, in the real world, like purpose is what makes everything go. Yes. Right? I mean, it's, it's what gets you out of bed in the morning. It's like, I can't tell you how... When I'm in the middle of writing a book is probably the happiest I am- Mm-hmm you know, as a, as a, as a human, and it's b- it's because I have purpose, right? Yeah. And so I don't... I- i- if you just, like everyone not working is, is a, is a, is not a good thing for the human psyche. It's also not... I mean, you have so much to figure out if people don't work. You know, [00:18:00] universal... Imagine trying to implement universal basic income now in the, with the kind of Congress and, that we've had over the last- Yeah 15 years, 20 years. You can't, you just... It's alm- it's almost impossible. So I guess bottom line is I can't stand AI. I didn't ask for it. I don't, I don't know anyone who did. Uh, and I don't know why we're being faced to deal with this thing that, you know, is gonna be, looks like it's gonna be super, super, super disruptive, and I think in a really bad way. Yeah. Well, I don't disagree with you on so many of the, of the t- of the points that you just made. One of the things that is interesting, um, you know, I have kids that have graduated college. All m- all three of mine are grad- graduated, one very recently. And, um, the middle, my middle one, he, uh, went traveling right after college, and he traveled for a, a while. He worked all the way through college. He took all that money. He went all over the place, all over, everywhere he wanted to go, and he just did these incredible things. And he comes back, and um, [00:19:00] I don't know, th- there was a struggle. There was a little bit of a struggle, and one of the things was, um, f- trying to find your purpose. Like, like- Mm-hmm ... that seems to be advice that has been given to young people for a while now, and in a lot of ways, you know- From people like you who are doing exactly what you want to do, and you are definitely contributing to the world; people like me that were fishing guides and, and are doing the same kind of thing on a daily basis, to where you're seeing smiles on people's faces, and you're teaching them how to do things, and they're experiencing this thing that they've really wanted to do for a long time, and you're making it happen. And it feels like that's a purpose. Yep. Some people don't find that, and I feel like... I wonder if you think the same or, or as you're coaching your kids into this next, next chapter of their life, if, if you think that, like, the purpose, I feel like some, some young people are kind of being confused of that, like they're supposed to save the world or they're supposed to have [00:20:00] this great thing that they're doing, um, that's gonna have a massive effect on the entire world, and that's what they're here for, and that's what their whole life means. Where you also said it just a second ago, and this is what I was talking to my son about, I'm like, purpose doesn't have to be that. Like, purpose is responsibility. Mm-hmm. Purpose is, is like showing up at work on time and doing things that people are expecting of you to do. And, and it doesn't have to be this overwhelmingly incredible thing like Mother Teresa. Like, like, it can just be that you do a good job- Yeah ... and that you enjoy working. I don't know, do you... Have you thought about that at all? Because I don't know how old your kids were, but this took me by surprise as a parent. Like- Yeah ... that, that there was a struggle of, of trying to find that. After watching my kids do just... You know, they, they did the sports that they wanted to do, and they excelled at them, and then they, they went to the college that they wanted to do, and [00:21:00] they excelled there. And then it gets out, they get out, and they're kinda like, "Huh, now what?" I think it's funny because I think just speaking about AI, I mean, I think AI and social media make it, make it harder maybe sometimes to, to hone in. Yeah, I agree. I mean, AI is like a shortcut, right? So a purpose is something to me, uh, and like you said, it doesn't have to be saving the world. It can be, uh, you know, as little as take- doing a good job at taking care of your kids, taking care of your dog- Right ... exercising, whatever, right? But it's about work. Yeah. It's about working. It's about thinking hard. It's about friction, right? And so AI, what AI is promising to do is to remove the friction, right? And you don't gain anything. It's just, it's just like a workout. AI is basically, you know, you telling your agent to go work out for you, and then you'd be like, "Ah, that was awesome," and then having a protein drink, right? When you didn't do a damn thing, right? Right. So I think that, that take- Having that as a part of the sort of conversation makes it really hard to kind of figure out your purpose 'cause you don't really know what that means, how to get [00:22:00] there. I think social media- Makes it seem like everyone else is doing something so cool, right? Yes. And, and so big because it's got this, like, kind of, uh, blasting effect of, of, uh, you know, w- amplifying effect, I should say, uh, where, you know- Right, but people are also showing you their best- Exactly. No- That part ... no one's showing you, no one's showing you when you've had food poisoning for 24 hours- and you're, you're curled up under the bed, right? Yeah. So I think that makes it... I, I also just think the digital world just makes it harder, right? It just makes it harder for, for people to kind of just sit down and calm down and th- and, and, and think about what really matters and, and what they really wanna do, right? So I don't, I haven't had one kid graduate yet, so I don't know, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda terrified, right? I mean, about, like, I, I think they'll be fine, knock on wood, right? But, uh, you know, it'll be real interesting to see how we do that. And, you know, it's interesting, you know, uh, talking about purpose is a lot of the things I've written about, in fact, almost 99% of the things I've written about have been about the word obs- [00:23:00] you know, s- the word would be obsession, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Which is a type of purpose. Um, it can, you know, be taken too far and become, uh, something really horrible if you take obsessions too far. But we all, the whole world is kind of run by, uh, or runs on little, tiny obsessions, right? I mean, it's like whether you're a baseball card collector or if you're trying to catch the world record tarpon, or you love working out or whatever, right? Um, that's a thing that gets you animated and gets you out of bed, right? So that's like, that is, it, that's such an important part, um, becoming kind of obsessed with something is, like, such- Yeah ... an important part of the human experience, I think, like that. 'Cause, you know, otherwise you sit around and, like, I don't know. Like, I, I think about people who don't have obsessions, and it, it seems like a rather bland life. I mean, you can kind of entertain yourself to death, right? You can, you know, watch Netflix all day and, and go on social media all day, stuff like that. But it's a, it's a relatively empty life, right? So it's like- Yeah it's, it's not a... I think there's a [00:24:00] reason, I, I guess I'll say. There's a reason why I'm obsessed with obsessed pe- with obsessive people, because I love seeing how animated and how incredible people can be when they get obsessed with something. I mean, Nick Saban is the most obsessed person I've ever written about. So is Pete Carroll. Two totally different coaches, did it two totally different ways, you know, like, uh, but were both, like, just obsessed, right? And they love the... I think when you b- when you get obsessed, uh, and this is, I think, an important part, is you fall in love with the journey, right? Yeah. There's that old cliche about it's not the destination, it's the journey, which is true. Uh, you need a destination, I think, to define the journey, but the g- b- falling in love with the little steps or the minutiae is everything, right? I mean, it's like, it is so, it's so awesome, and that's what being a writer is all about, right? It's, like, falling in love with the construction of a sentence or finding the right word or the, you know, the how to do, which chapter should go where and all that sort of stuff. That's all the minutiae that goes [00:25:00] into creating, you know- a greater whole. Right. I think that, um, that was really well, um, put together. I think that you only learn that after you've learned how to become really good at one thing, right? Like, somebody that, that loves the journey is somebody that's already achieved greatness somewhere in their life. Maybe they learned how to play the piano or something like that, and then they can transfer that and use that same, those same principles and that same drive to become great at the piano, and they, they apply all those things to something completely different, like coaching or fishing or something like that. And it's like- Yep ... well, if you can become really great, world-class in one thing, I feel like you can do that in anything. And you can do that because of exactly the way that you des- described it. It's about- Yep ... the journey. That's what's driving you. You're not trying to be- Yep ... the best. Maybe you are trying to be the best in the world. I don't know. Maybe that's what's driving you, but what gets you there is the journey and the- Correct ... every single day. People [00:26:00] call that discipline, but- Yeah ... but for the people that are really doing it, they don't need discipline. They, they are driven to a point that discipline doesn't even apply. Yeah. In my... I mean, that's what I think, but you- No, I agree ... on these whole- I, I think they, they focus on this little part. They almost have blinders on- Yes, right ... just focusing on some parts, and all of a sudden one day they take off the blinders like, "Holy crap, I'm really good- Yeah ... at this." You know? Yep. No kidding. Exactly. And so, um, one of the things that I wanted to talk about was, was mindset, because we talk about mindset a lot on this podcast, and we talk about it with different types of people. You've had the opportunity to talk with some of the, the top performers in a lot of different areas. Certainly when you talk about Nick Saban and Pete Carroll, they have the ability to, um, encourage other people to have a certain mindset or to demand a certain mindset or to create a culture of a certain mindset, and it sounds like Pete Carroll and Nick Saban did it very differently, but probably there was more similarity than, than differences. It was a [00:27:00] different approach going to the same thing of excellence, right? Mm-hmm. Um- Absolutely. Yep ... and then you go into fishing, which is what, what people here are really interested in, and you're, you're talking about Tom Evans and Steve Huff, and in your new book you have Nathaniel Linville and you have John O'Hearn and you have Andy Mill, and you have these people who are truly great. They, they really are, and they've proven it with world records and tarpon tournament wins, and, uh, Lefty Cray has proven it with books and demonstrations for his entire life and, and truly exceptional people. And I'm wondering if you made... You know, especially since you said that you, you're, you're writing f- about football and then, then you're writing about fishing, and you're doing these things in two different, two different, um, two different subjects at basically the same time. Did you notice similarities between- The high level coaches, the high level anglers, the high level [00:28:00] guides, and what, what, what stuck out as, like, the, the things that you noticed about them? Yeah. I think the two things we just talked about. I think, I think becoming obsessed with something was the sort of beginning, right? They, they just... When I look at Steve Huff, like, all he ever really wanted to do was to, was to guide, was to be, be a fishing guide. Mm-hmm. Um, and he became obsessed with it, and he will tell you, uh, in that story I wrote, wrote about him, uh, in Rivers Always Reach the Sea, he, he admits when I, when he first did it, he was terrible. He said he felt terri- he felt so bad for the sucker who who was his first client. You know, he didn't know what he was doing, but he was obsessed with it, and in, with, with that obsession came this yearning, this desire to learn, right? To learn, to learn all about this thing. And for Steve, you know, e- every push of that push/pull is meaningful, right? Every little thing is meaningful like that. And so I think from that obsession, you know, which is football coaches and [00:29:00] Stu Apt and Steve Huff and Tom Evans, stuff like that, you learn what we talked about before. You learn to love that learning part, so that journey, right? That journey to whatever your destination might be. And, you know, there was no one more obsessed with the minutia of football than Nick Saban. You know, it was like how the cornerback's hips were lined up, uh, what was being made in the cafeteria, uh, what kind of... how long their studs were, uh, on their shoes. You know, that kind of thing. Same thing, again, goes, goes for Steve Huff. How you tie that leader, it's gotta be perfect. Uh, you know, uh, w- again, like, how you angle the boat depending on your angler. You know, are you an 11:30 guy? Does he want a 12 o'clock shot? All that kind of stuff. Stu Apt used to, you know, stay up all night long and tie and re-tie leaders until he got them perfectly, um, done. And, you know, I mean, so there's, there's a ton of similarities between the two factions that I, that I write about, uh, which I [00:30:00] love. And, and the mindsets, uh, you know, with the world's best fly anglers and the world's best coaches is very, very similar. Mm. Do you notice, like, we're talking about coaches and players, and then you have guides and anglers. And do you notice a difference between, like, are the coaches and the guides similar and the anglers and the players are similar? Because they're... I mean, it's, it's, it's kinda different, but it's kinda the same too, is that a, a coach really has to bring out the best in that person. Mm-hmm. And they have to do it in a way that they can communicate something that probably is, is inconvenient and not exactly what you want to say, but they have to learn how to say that to the- Mm-hmm somebody to where they're gonna actually feel like, "Okay, this person's actually trying to help me, and I'm gonna listen to them, and I'm al-" you know, and you're already at the top- For you to be under one of those coaches, you're already the top. Right. And [00:31:00] then you have the similar thing going on with the guides and the anglers, that the guide's out there every single day, and this guy, and Andy Mill, Tom Evans, they are really, really, really good, and in fact, better angler than the guy on the back. But the guy on the back knows things that the guy on the front doesn't. Same thing with the coach- Yep ... and the player. Absolutely. Interesting. It's, it's- Yeah ... kind of interesting, and I don't know that I know enough about... That I've never been in a, in a professional football locker room to, to see the interaction, but I've been on a lot of those boats. Mm-hmm. And there, there are very interesting interactions, which you talked about pretty, pretty well in your first book, Lords of the- Yeah ... not your first book, but Lords of the Fly. Um, it's like a marriage almost. Yep. Yep. And how do you see the, the two being different from one another? I mean, it's... The similarities are kinda, are kinda crazy, like between... Like you, you put it well with the coaches and the guides, right? So, uh, uh, uh, one of the reasons that college football coaches, [00:32:00] uh, just fascinate me is because, is because of the different, uh, kind of personas they have to inhabit, right? I mean, they're, they're the CEO, basically, of a medium-sized co- company, but they're also like, they have to be great recruiters. They have to be teachers. They have to be psychologists. Uh, they have to be, you know, priests sometimes. And then, you know, and then of course, they have to be also, uh, depending on where they are, are sort of like minor media celebrities or sometimes major media celebrities. I often think of when I'm fishing with Steve Huff how much he's c- he's coaching me, right? I mean, he, he's doing a, a lot of the same things that a, a very good football coach does. He is helping me see, uh... You know, he, he sees exactly how to do it, and he's trying to transmit that information to me. He has to play the role of a cheerleader. Uh, he has to play the role of sometimes scolding, you know, in, in, in his own way a bit when I screw up. He has to be a psychologist. I mean, I remember... I'll never forget the first time I caught a tarpon was with him, and that day was this... I wrote, this was, I wrote about this in Lords of [00:33:00] Fly. Uh, you know, this, the... I, I just screwed up everything. I mean, laid up, there were laid-up fish everywhere, and I could not... I mean, throw it to the tail, hit, bonk the thing in the head, and like at that point was like fit for the funny farm, right? Like, I was just like... You, you lose all your confidence, right? You're like, "I can't even do anything." And he's like, "We're gonna get one. Don't worry about it. You know, just get one..." He's like, "Just o- one good cast." And he was right. I made one good cast. I still flushed that fish, but it was like, I think the analogy I made was like when you're playing golf and you hit like a, a perfect three iron, you don't even feel it, right? It's just like this, it's just like this, this wonderful non-feeling, right? Yes. And that's kinda the same thing I felt when I made that cast. And all of a sudden, I believe Steve. I was like, "You know what? He's right. I am gonna get one." And lo and behold, you know, still took a couple, couple more fish, but we got one. But yeah, so there's this... You know, these guides have to t- tweak their, the way they teach and the way they talk to each individual angler has different ways of learning, right? Some are visual learners, some like to hear it, uh, uh, [00:34:00] aural learners. Uh, you know, and the same thing with these football coaches. The football coaches obviously have a lot more guys to do. I mean, they've gotta kinda coach their assistants, and then they have to, you know- Mm-hmm ... coach their players. And, and there are different ways of doing that. I mean, Nick... Interesting thing about Nick Saban and Pete Carroll is Nick Saban was more kind of in the militaristic way, like, "All right. Here's the way we're gonna do it, and you fit into this." Uh, whereas Pete Carroll was way more indi- individualistic. He would be like, you know, "Lindell White learns differently than Reggie Bush, so I'm gonna coach Lindell White, uh, or I'm gonna teach him a little bit differently." You know, Saban did coach people differently, but he taught people a lot, uh, in a very similar way. So very, very fascinating. I mean, all that stuff I love. I mean, it's so, so interesting how you, how people learn, how they teach, how they coach. Fascinating. So you've had the opportunity to fish with great guides, legendary guides, probably other, other guides. Uh, you've had the opportunity certainly to watch these coaches that are legendary, and you watch college football your whole life. What do you think [00:35:00] separates the, the truly great from... which you- you've had that experience. What do you think the... from, from, from the rest of them, the good? I think to a certain degree, people are born with an innate... There, there's an innate thing that they're born with. Um, now, that doesn't mean that they're always... That doesn't mean that they're gonna... You know, say you're innately born with 35% of what, you know, can make you great. Doesn't mean you're gonna capitalize on that. You could go do something else. You could go be an insurance salesman or something like that. But I think they're born with this innate sort of, uh... It's almost like the way they see, way a fishing guide sees a flat, the way that a football coach can see the whole game, right? So you're kind of born with that within you. And then from that point on, it's about this desire, this curiosity, so, like, learning from everything you do. Everything you do is an input to what you do. Um, and then, you know, frankly, it's hard work, right? I mean, a- and discipline. I mean, [00:36:00] Nick Saban and Pete Carroll, even though Pete Carroll was loosey-goosey in a player's coach, like, in- insanely disciplined and insanely hardworking, right? So... And I look back at, you know, someone like Steve Huff. Uh, you know, the guy, he's 80 now, and he does not s- does not take a one push off, right? One push of the pole off, that every one of those things is meaningful. Uh, never stops working hard. So I mean, that's kinda what separates the... You know, there's plenty of people who have the innate talent, I think, like that, but then to get to that next level, it's a c- combination of kind of this curiosity and this continual learning and, and hard work. And I think that's probably the same in any business. I mean, I see that in writing as well. I see a lot of people who have, you know, a lot of innate talent, and they just don't have great- You know, work habits Mm ... you know. Uh, you know, uh, y- but I think you have to have some kind of innate talent. Like, you know, you, you could have all the smarts that LeBron James has about basketball, and if you just were a scrawny 95-pound person, you're not gonna be as good as he is, right? Right. [00:37:00] So. But I wonder if there's, like... I always wonder, like, somebody that's really great at something or became really great at something, I think, like, you described it really well, they have this ability to see things and, and see a path- Yep ... to that, and then they just happen to be really interested in football. Yep. And a Nick Saban finds that and starts on that path, and obviously- Yep ... it's also very lucrative. He can make a living doing it. It, he can do more than make a living. He can- Mm-hmm ... he can build an empire doing it. Yep. That has to be some sort of a driver, but even somebody that's, like, a great fishing guide, they see things differently, and they, they navigate this path like you're talking about, and I just always kinda wonder. Like, some- some people, you see them, and you're like, "You know, if that guy wasn't a great fishing guide, he'd be great at something else." Yeah. Like, that's just the way that they operate. Mm-hmm. That's just the way that they do it. If they were an insurance salesman, which is something that you, you suggested, they [00:38:00] would probably be really, really great at it- Yep unless they just hated it. Like, if, if they were interested in it and they still have that same mindset- Yep ... they're going to be successful at it. Yep. Yeah, I mean, there has to, there has to be some carrot too, right? There has to be something that comes with it. Like, you, you mentioned money, and, you know, I think both Nick Saban, you know, he wouldn't admit it, b- and Pete Carroll likes the, the sort of spotlight being on them a lot, right? Mm-hmm. They, they loved... They both were performers, right? Whenever... When they knew the cameras were on them, and Nick S- Nick would always have that look on his face like that. Pete would always be chewing his gum and hopping around, you know, so I mean, they, they, they had this sort of natural performance thing going on. But, you know, I think that, uh, there... so there has to be some... Either, either it's w- you know, about money or, or fame or something like that, or just, you know, for Steve, it was... Steve Huff and some of these guides, like, it's about the ability to be on the water every day, and they're, they're people. A lot of these people are people persons, too, right? Mm. I mean, they like... They genuinely like being around other people. Uh, you know, they get a lot of satisfaction, um, [00:39:00] in helping people achieve their goals and their dreams. I mean, Steve Huff would always describe himself, he said, "I'm not really a fishing guide. I'm a dream maker-" Mm ... which I always loved. You know what I mean? Me, too. He, he's like, "My job is to make people's dreams come true," right? And so it's such a cool... And I think about that every time we fish together. We're fishing in next month, and I mean, you know, my dream is to, is to hook and catch a couple tarpon, you know? And he's gonna do everything he can to... and it makes him so happy when- Yeah when it happens, you know? And it makes... It actually weirdly puts a little pressure on me because I'm like, "I wanna..." You know, this guy back here is working his butt off and gets a lot of satisfaction out of this. I, I gotta keep up my end. So it actually makes you kind of- You know- Of course ... up your, up your game a little bit, right? Yeah. But they're, they're great communicators, these guy- I mean, there's, it's not only they, they, they have like, they have like great pattern recognition, fishing guides and coaches, right? They, they... Whether it's a flat or, or a football game. But they're also great commun- like y- y- you can have all that knowledge in your head, but you've gotta be able to communicate it well. And so they're, you know, pattern, pattern recognition and [00:40:00] communication and, and like I said too, like psychologist, teacher, priest, you know, all military leader, you know, all kinds of things all wrapped in one. You know, it's very cool. Sometimes the, sometimes the most effective means of communication about, um, some things like that are, are... is just silence. Sure. Like you, you- Speaks, speaks volumes ... you make a cast and you go, "How was that?" And- Yeah. Just- ... there's nothing, nothing comes out. Yeah. And you're like- You, you already know. You're, you're looking for a way out of it, basically. You're looking for them to bail you out. Yeah. And they're like, "Mm, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna be quiet." Uh, you know, at, at... They're trying to be nice. At some point- Yeah ... you're, "Yeah, that wasn't too bad." But then there's also just the, just the silent shaking of the head- Yeah ... slightly and, and, you know, probably with a buff on- Yeah ... on the face, so you can't- I know ... fully see what's behind there, but you know. I'm, I'm totally f- the, the, the guide-angler dynamic, especially when you get into things like, you know, saltwater fly fishing, is such an interesting, you know, dynamic because it's, uh... [00:41:00] You know, some of these are like the captains of industry, right? Yes. And they're, they're out there, and they're turned into 12-year-olds. Oh, yeah. Yes. They're turned into 12-year-olds by these, you know, by these guys in the back of the boat, right? Who, who... They're the bosses. You know, Steve's got a great quote in his book. There was some... Or in, in Lords of the Fly, uh, there was some like... I forget who he was. He was like Prudential CEO or something like that, and he got on the boat, and he was all, you know, like, "Oh, I think we should go over here, Steve. I think we should go over here." And, uh, and Steve was basically like, "You're done, dude. You're off, you're off my boat." Yeah. "You're not gonna come in here and... You know, you need to kind of sublimate your ego for a little while," which is actually probably a good thing for these guys a little bit, you know, I would imagine. Well, yeah. And the ladies. I think some people really, really enjoy it. And, and I have noticed that to where they are always making the calls, and they are al- Yep ... the pressure is always on them, and they can step onto someone else's boat who is truly way better than they will- Yep ... ever be at something that they really love and just let, just let them go. Mm-hmm. I mean- Absolutely ... for some people [00:42:00] it's, it's a dream come true. Absolutely. And I think those are the ones that book 100 days. Yeah. Because it's the one time in their life that, that they don't have to do all of the other things that they're expected to do- Yep ... everywhere else they go. That, that's a great point, yeah. And it's also that, that they're with someone who literally wants nothing from them- Other than their success and what- Right ... they came for. Yep. And everywhere else in most of these people's lives, they're... somebody's trying to get 15 minutes of their time so they- Right ... can deal, so they can do this, so they can do that. It's a, it's a very interesting, um, dynamic. Yeah. And- I love it. I think it's endlessly fascinating, you know? So Steve Huff is 80 years old. He's, he just turned 80. Yep. Wow. I mean, my dad is 88, and I cannot imagine him on the back of a skiff- I mean- ... bowling ... not only is he 80, he, you know, he... So he's not really guiding anymore. He's got, like, you know, 12 folks or whatever that, that he just... they're buddies. They fish with him. But- Mm-hmm ... he is [00:43:00] fishing the March Merkin as we speak right now. Really? Really? Guiding, guiding Carl Hiaasen. Really? Yes. How did Carl Hiaasen talk him into doing that? Great. That's amazing. It's a great question. I'm actually doing a story on this. I, I g- I'm gonna call him tomorrow night when it, when it's over and, uh, get the lowdown on that, but I, I, I, I, I think s- Carl is just relen- well, as he is in a lot of things, was just completely relentless and was like, "We're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this." And Steve was probably like, "Why not?" You know? Wow. That is, that is a surprise. I know. Because I don't know- So, I mean, it's gotta be the first time- When's the last time he fished in a tournament? Uh, last time he fished a tournament was a long time ago. Yeah. Long time ago. I mean, had to have been, like, a maybe a Gold Cup back in the- Yeah '90s, I would say. I mean, it's been, it's been a long time. I was never- Long time. Maybe in 2000 ... I was never in a tournament with Steve Huff. Okay. And you started- I've been- You, you were- ... a lot of them ... were you in the '90s or 2000s? Yeah, in the '90s. So my fir- Yeah ... I've got this thing on the wall back here. 1994 was, was my first year guiding. Was it? Okay. And he was not fishing- Yeah ... [00:44:00] uh, tournaments then. He, he, he- He was- ... was about to move- Guiding Bill Brown ... to Everglades City. Yep. Yeah. Yep. And that, that tournament tends to be extremely windy and, uh, extremely tough, so I hope they have, I hope they have good weather. Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting tournament for them to, to dive into, I think. You know, it's, it may have a better chance of success given the fact that Cat Valele won, I don't know, in 2023. I think she won with the only permit caught in the entire tournament, right? Yeah. So maybe your odds are better there. I'm not sure. Well, I, you know what? That, that's, that's my little secret, um, that permit became my favorite fish to fish for, and I fished for them a whole bunch, and I developed a whole clientele of, of fly anglers coming down to permit fish. But kinda secretly, um, when I've showed up in Key West, the permit fishing was fantastic. It was really, really good. Yep. There weren't very many bonefish around. Very, very hard to find bonefish. I didn't know much about tarpon at the time, so I kind of gravitated [00:45:00] to the permit because I thought, "Hey, if you don't catch anything, so what? Nobody's catching anything." You know what? That was kind of my, that was kind of my, my thing as a, as a starting guide. I was like- Yeah ... "Well, I'll do this. Like, if you catch one, you're a hero. If you don't catch one, nobody... Everybody's like, 'Oh, yeah, man, me too.'" Yeah. You were permit fishing, right? Yeah. We were. That's a great... You know? That was a good call. But then I stuck with it a little bit because I still couldn't find any bonefish, so I'm like, "Well, I guess we could go over here," and basically we were throwing at fish. We weren't actually fishing for them back then, 'cause I didn't know how to do it. And then, you know, sooner or later, one turns around and eats it, and you get some- Yeah you get some confidence. But- Yeah ... um, I don't think that's how Steve Huff, um, feels about permit. Probably not. I, I don't think that's how he feels about it. Probably not. I think he thinks that they're all catchable and, uh, you just have to do it right. I agree. Did, did he, um, did he give you, um, [00:46:00] much history on, on him and, and Del Brown? Mm-hmm. Lots. Yeah, I mean, they, they really- Does he talk about Del Brown a lot? Yeah, he does. He does. He had a real... It's a real kind of poignant end to that story, but they had a real partnership for a long, long time, and Del was just as insatiable as Steve was. Um, and- Yeah ... you know, I mean, they, they really kind of popularized a sport that was not very popular till Del started... You know, the, the two of them started- Was- ... catching a bunch of fish ... it wasn't, it wasn't even a sport. Yeah. It really wasn't. I mean- It was like a nuisance fish- They may think differently ... on the flat, right? But from an, from an outside perspective, those two guys created that sport. Yep. I, I totally agree. And everyone else, including some of the guides that they fished with, you know, that, uh, other guides that Del fished with that I know well will say the same thing. Yeah. Those guys created the sport, and we're all just doing- Yep ... what they did. Yep. And, um, uh, that's... I, I mean, it wasn't even a sport. Yep. I, I fully agree. It was like a, it was a silly activity for most people. I fully, fully agree. [00:47:00] And the fishing nerd in me, like, I loved... I was out with Nat Linville doing a story on him, and I was like, "Where did Del catch that monster?" You know, the, the biggest one he ever caught, like, which is still, I think, the biggest one ever caught on a fly. And he's like, "Come on out, we'll show you." And so, like, we motored over to, uh, the flat which was called, um, Scene of the Crime- Mm-hmm ... which you probably know. But it's, uh... It was just the fishing nerd in me was like, "This is where it happened? Like, uh, th- this is- Yeah ... so cool. Like, can we stay here for a little while?" They're like, "Ah, it doesn't fish very well anymore," but still. But the, the Steve-Del, uh, ch- ch... thing had kind of this, this really poignant ending, actually, 'cause, uh, you know, Del was, I think, 20 years older, maybe 25 years older than Steve. And, you know, they'd just been going and going and going and going and going for years and years and years and years and years and- Dell's getting older, and Steve tells this story about the last time they fished together that it was blowing, uh, like it always i- always seems to be, and, [00:48:00] you know, Steve was just a relentless... He never would motor in anywhere. He never used a, you know, a, a trolling motor or anything like that. He would pole in. So he'd, he wanted to pole into this place where he thought these permit would be, but it, poling into a 25 mile an hour wind, it took him, like, 45 minutes to pole to get into th- into position. And when he got there, Dell just sat down because Dell was tire- was tired. He was 82 years old or something like that, and just exhausted. And he said, "Steve, I can't, I can't do it." And Steve was like, "What do you mean you can't do it?" He said, "No, I, I just can't do this." So Steve, you know, put the motor back in and, and drove back, and he describes a scene where he's just bawling as he's- Mm-hmm as he's... Dell can't see him 'cause Dell's sitting in front of him, but he's just bawling 'cause he knows it's over. And, uh, you know, it's, so at that, they get back to the dock, and he, you know, embraces Dell and says, "This is w- we... We're not fishing together anymore." Wow. Um, which seems like an incredibly... You know, it's, it's, it's a complicated story, I feel like. Like I, I kind of understand it, but Steve was still in that phase where he just wa- he was, he was, or he [00:49:00] still is, but he was so excellent, right? That, like, he wanted to fish with people who had the same insatiability and excellence that he did. And, uh, Dell was just, just too old, you know. And he even, his quote I think was like, you know, "Dell, Dell just got old, and it broke my heart," is what he said. Mm-hmm. So there's this kind of poignancy, I, I feel like, to their, their relationship. But yeah, we talk about him a lot. Um, you know, you spend 10 hours on a day on a boat- Yeah ... with someone 15 feet away from, we've, we've talked about pretty much everything you know? What, what is, what, what interests Steve Huff outside of fishing? Uh, he is a, is an incredible, uh, bicyclist, actually. Yeah. Mm-hmm. He and his wife bicycled from Everglades City. Uh, they did their very first one, they, Everglades City to someplace in, in, uh, Washington State. Wow. Enjoyed it so much, across the whole country. Enjoyed it so much that they canceled their, uh, airplane reservations and biked all the way back. But they biked everywhere, Ireland, Canada, uh, lots of places in Europe. Um, so they've, you know, they're, [00:50:00] they're very avid bicyclists. And, um, you know, Steve loves, he's got all these beautiful palm trees from all over the world in his yard, which he loves. Uh, he's a big time reader. I love talking to him. He's always got some book that he wants to tell me about, and usually when I go down there, we exchange books. I'll give him my favorite one that I've been reading lately, and he'll do the same. Um, and you know, he just, he just, he's just a really fun guy to talk to, an interesting guy. You know, kind of a f- father figure-ish, I think, to not just me, but a whole legions of other folks, you know. Uh, even to people around his age, I feel like he's still- Yeah ... got this kind of like, you know, this kind of like, he kind of exudes... You know, he's funny. He's like, you know, he, he'll tell a dirty joke, and he'll bust your B-A-L-S, B-A-L-L-S's, but, but he's, uh, he's got, he kind of exudes integrity. Um, you know, it, it just, just, you know, not only when it comes to fishing and stuff like that, but just in terms of life, right? I mean, just, you, you could just... His, his BS detector is, uh, turned up pretty good, so. I bet so. What kind of [00:51:00] books interest him? He really likes nonfiction history books, but I've, I've been bringing him some novels. Um, and he, you know, i- if you get him a good novel, he'll, he'll read it, but he loves read about World War II. He loves read about, you know, there was some book he read about Papua New Guinea. I mean, he reads all kinds of very kind of eclectic, um, uh, breadth to his, uh, his reading tastes. Hmm. We have a lot of readers here. We have a book club. Uh, how about three novels that you suggest? Oh my God. All right, so- Any three any three. Um, all right, well, I mean, might not have read Gatsby since 10th grade, but it's a, a must read, I feel like. It is one of the books that i- is always pertinent, I think, and I think as we enter into whatever we're going into right now, it feels even more pertinent. Um, and, and so beautifully written. Uh, and then, you know, my f- my, probably my favorite book of all time is, uh, is, uh, [00:52:00] a James Salter book, uh, called Light Years, which is just an absolute gorgeous, sentence to sentence gorgeous. It's, it's a sad topic. It's about the dissolution of a marriage, but Salter's not really a well-known writer. He was a World War II pilot, uh, who wrote kind of like at w- you know, while he was in, you know, in battle. He was in, in Korea as well, but, um, wrote just some beautiful prose. Didn't write ma- very many books. That's why people don't know much about him, but, um, just unbelievable. Um- Hmm ... and then I mean, geez, the novels... Oh, I got a good one for you. Uh, there's a, there's a book called Whiskey When We're Dry, which is also one of my favorite books I've read in the last 10 years, written by a steelhead guide named Jim Larison, John Larison, and, uh, it is awesome. It is like, you know, a, it's a Western. It's sort of a, a, a, a True Grit type Western, but the lead character is, uh, is a little bit different. I'll leave it at [00:53:00] that, but it is just a rollicking... Just a cr- incredible book. I give it out all... I just sent it to a friend of mine. I give it out to people all the time. It's just a great, great book. Did he- So those, those are my, those are my three off the top ... did he write more? He wrote a follow-up The steelhead guy ... he wrote a follow-up that didn't quite get as much traction it feels like, but, uh, uh, Whiskey When We're Dry, I believe was optioned for a movie and will be, will be made at some point. Um- Wow ... it's very, when you read it, you're like, "Oh my God, this should definitely be a movie." You know, you can even like picture some of the people who might act in it, but it's, it's just great. And I love the fact that it's- That's what I thought ... love that it's- When I read a Carl Hiaasen book, I was like, "This is definitely gonna be a movie," and I was right. Later- Yep. Yeah. I love, I love Heist and stuff too. I mean, Double Whammy is, to me, one of the great- That was my favorite ... one of my favorites, yeah That was the first one I ever read, and still my favorite. That is- Right away. Yeah. I mean, I read that and, like, I don't know, in high school I didn't really, I didn't really like reading because they were telling me to, so that's kind of my personality in a [00:54:00] nutshell. Yeah. Somebody told me that I had to do it, so I didn't really wanna do it. And so I never really developed a love of reading that I have today. And honestly, that book was one of the things, one of the books that I read and I was just kinda like, "Oh, reading can be fun and funny." And I had never really truly laughed out loud, like laughing hysterically- Mm-hmm at a book. Yeah. And that was one of them. No, it's- I mean, it was a real, real game changer for me. I mean, I was like, "I like reading." And then I tore through like six or eight more. I got six- Yeah ... or eight other good ones right after that, and all of a sudden I'm a reader. And it really, really made a big difference. And, and the other thing that made- Yeah ... a difference in my reading- He- Um, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Well, I was just saying he'd be very hap- he'd be very happy to hear that. Yeah. I'm sure that he would, uh, because that's probably... Like Steve Huff loves to [00:55:00] watch someone catch a tarpon. He would love to watch- Mm-hmm someone truly laugh out loud at something that he wrote. Yep. But I don't know. Yep. It, uh, it's just the timing of the book and everything was just perfect for me just to pick it up and read it and basically- Yeah ... tear straight through it. I, I- Yeah. I mean, it's- There's not a lot of books that I've read in one sitting like I read your book, Lords of the Fly. I, because I knew a lot of those guys, and if I didn't know them, I knew their story, and I ha- you know, I'm a fishing nerd. And so- Mm-hmm ... like, you just had these stories in there and I r- I s- I remember sitting in this, like, on a, on a bar stool kinda thing in our kitchen, a hard wood stool. And that book came, and I started reading it, and I was just gonna, I was just gonna kinda just breeze through it a little bit and look at it. And I read, like, the first little bit of it, and I just stuck with it. The next thing I know, it's like an hour and a half later, I'm still sitting on this hard wood bar stool in a [00:56:00] terribly uncomfortable situation. Mm-hmm. It k- you know, sit... You would never sit like that unless something really captured your attention. So that, that was a, that was a really good one. I've suggested it- Well, that's- ... to a lot of people- That's- ... including a guy that I know that just bought a house in Homosassa that- Oh, good ... I'm, I'm like, "This is a must read. You gotta know." Good. "You wouldn't know the history." He doesn't know it. Yeah. He doesn't know the fishing history there- No because they don't fish there like that anymore. Yep. No, I, I thank you for saying that. That's... That, that book was a kinda c- I, I didn't know if anyone was gonna read it when I was, when I f- I, you know, it came out during the, you know, the early stage of the pandemic, kind of, like, I think it was September. And, uh, yeah, I just wasn't sure anyone was gonna read it. And, um, it has been, you know, one of the better experiences that I've had. Um, you know, I mean, I've- Hmm ... with the Saban book and with the Carroll book, you, you get a lot of kind of, you know, I would say, like, kind of attention way up here, uh, from 40,000 feet, right? Like, uh, the blogs and the ESPN, all that sort of stuff, you know, Finebaum will have you on, all that kind of stuff. [00:57:00] Lords of the Fly ha- had this real personal... I, I, I mean, I, uh, I haven't counted them yet, but there are... I literally have had hundreds of people emailing me. They found my email on my website and emailing me and, and some people just saying, "Hey man, thanks for it. I loved it." And then other people are writing me, like, you know, about fishing with their dad- ... and all, you know, just like crazy stuff. Uh, it- it's just been such a cool... I had a really cool experience. I went down to, uh, Sarasota in December, uh, for a book signing for Rivers Always Reach the Sea, which is the collection that came out in June, last June. And, uh, I had this woman come up. She was kind of, uh... There, there was a... People had gathered up for this talk I was gonna do or whatever, and, and this woman kind of, she was a little shy. She kind of walked up, and she had in her hand a copy of Lords of the Fly that looked like someone had put it, like, in the washing machine and then left it outside for 40 days. I mean, it was, like, the most be- like, literally, like, I felt like if I opened it, it was gonna dis- disintegrate. And she said it was her son's, but he couldn't be there. It was her son's book, and she, [00:58:00] he's read it. She got it for him when he was 14, and he's now 18, and he's probably read it, like, a dozen times, and he just wanted you to sign it. And it was like this upwelling... Uh, uh, you know, I was very careful about opening it up 'cause I did f- there were pages loose, and it... underlined stuff in there. And I signed it, and I had this upwelling of gratitude because, you know, all you really ever want is for someone else out there to love it, too. That's it, you know? And that, I even get... I feel like I'm gonna cry right now, but, like, that was one of the most meaningful, cool things that has ever happened to me. You know, it was like you, you just, just, just seeing that book, you know, like that, seeing that love. That's really, that's really cool. So when you have that, certainly in the fishing, you've had some great experiences with football, do you feel like you need to branch out and try something different or more fishing books, more football books? You taking a break? Like, what does it look like? What, what's interesting to you now? I wish, I wish I could take a break, but- Yeah ... the, my profession now is like, you [00:59:00] gotta be like a shark, man. If you don't keep producing stuff, you're gonna just sink to the bottom. Um- I think that, uh, you know, I, I don't know about another f- I don't know about another idea that would carry an entire fishing book. Uh, I, I will certainly keep, I, like I s- I said earlier, I've, I've been writing articles about, uh, fishin'- wr- written in the last f- four weeks, I've written three articles about fishing. Um, so I'll continue to do that. Uh, like college football, I'm not quite, I'm not topped out there yet. I, I still think there's some meat on the bone there to, to, to write about. And, um, but you know, I, I'm very open to doing... You know, and I worked at Forbes for 15 years. I did all kinds of different stories, right? I did stories on hedge fund guys and CEOs and, uh, you know, crazy entrepreneurs, stuff like that. So I'm, I'm always open to doing other things. I mean, people love to, publishers love to kinda pigeonhole you and be like, "Oh, this, what's this college football guy doing?" Mm. You know? Yeah, even f- I found that a little bit when I wrote Lords of the Fly. I'd just written two college football books, and they're like, "Yeah, what's this college football guy doing [01:00:00] trying to write about fishing?" You know, so it's like, but, but it's all, it's, in the end it's up to me, right? I mean, it's a, I, I don't, I, I'm not gonna pigeonhole myself. So yeah, if a great idea came along and it was something I was really interested in, had interesting characters, yeah, I would, I'd write about pretty much anything, I think. But you gotta pass it by your agent first. That's true. Right? And he'll probably say- He's gonna, he's gotta be like- ... he'll probably say, "That s- okay. "That stinks. Try again." So, so how about has there ever been an idea that you thought was just the greatest thing you've ever come up with, and you pass it by your agent, and he's like, "This is the worst thing I've ever heard"? Uh, there are- Have you ever been that far apart? Well, I mean, there, there are ideas there's... I'm usually, he usually says no to the ones that I'm a little bit unsure of but that I push anyway. Mm-hmm. And like I'll, I'll realize later, I was like, "Yeah, I really wasn't into that." But we've had ones, uh, that, you know, I've written full proposals for that haven't gotten, uh, that, that haven't gotten, you know, that, that other people have [01:01:00] passed on. Uh, which is, has, hasn't happened that much, but it's happened. Uh, I, I wanted to write a book about Deion Sanders, uh, which who I thought was just fascinating. I still might do it. I don't know. But, uh, for whatever reason- Yeah ... he, he had his own book coming out, I think, at the same time, so you know, for whatever reason that, that one didn't work. Um, you know, but that, that happens, too. I mean, not, you know, n- and they probably all happen for good reason, you know? I mean, there's, there's- Mm ... there's pro- probably a good reason that you didn't. Uh, certainly the ones that my agent says aren't good usually are very good reasons I didn't do them. I, I had one, uh, a good example of one is, um, I wanted to do one on Aaron Rodgers. And, uh- Mm ... uh, my agent was like, "Yeah, let's do that one," or whatever. We went to a publisher and he was like, "Uh," he's like, "Don't." I was like, "Why?" He said, "'Cause there's another big-time football guy who's about three-quarters of the way through with an Aaron Rodgers book." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, thank you." Mm. You know what I mean? So you never know, right? I mean, it's like you never really know what other people are doing and stuff like that. So usually it's a good thing. I'll put it that way. You never know what people are doing, but I find it interesting, like in the movies, [01:02:00] like all of a sudden there'll be like- There, there are no Westerns in, that go into the, to the theaters. And then all of a sudden- Yeah ... there's like three movies on the O.K. Corral- Yeah ... all of a sudden, one summer. Three different production houses. Yeah. You're like, "How, what the heck? How did that happen?" Yeah. Or all of a sudden superhero movies, like crazy. Yep. And it's like nobody communicates. Nobody- Yeah nobody understands it. I know there's another big one- That's, yeah ... going on over here. Yeah. I mean, it hap- But there'll be like two incredible- I mean, it happens in- Thank you ... in nonfiction writing it happens when there's like an anniversary coming up. If it's like the 100-year- Mm ... anniversary of Mark Twain's death or something like that, or if there's some sort of... I'm sure there'll be a lot of, you know, 250th America, 250 years old books coming out real soon. Yeah. Um, so you know, it just, it happens. Well, I would think that, um, Deion Sanders and Aaron Rodgers are two very interesting people. Very interesting people. Uh, I mean, totally interesting. Like there's definitely book, there are definitely books there. And there's definitely- Well, the guy, the guy- ... angles that other people... But- Yeah ... Deion Sanders is, [01:03:00] uh, uh, that's a, that's a rare individual. I mean- No matter how you think, what, no matter what you think about him, no matter what you, whether you like him or don't like him, if you look at what he did, it's truly incredible to play- Yeah in two different professional leagues at the same time. That's amazing. Mm-hmm. I mean, that, that's amazing. It's, it's just incredible. It's, it's, it's- And then what he- ... flabbergasting, actually ... then he goes and... Yeah. And now, then he goes and does this Colorado thing, and it didn't quite pan out like I think he thought it was going to, but he sticks with it. Like- Yeah ... that is surprising to me. I kinda thought- Yeah ... you know, just like his, his kid's gone and, and you know, the other, the other athletes that he brought in there are now gone. Is he gonna stick around or not? And he does. Yep. It's, it's just an interesting thing. Like what makes him do that? Yeah. He doesn't need to. You go back to, uh, just the, [01:04:00] the, what he escaped as a child, too. Like, like just, just- See, I don't know. I don't know all of that, but I- I mean, that, I mean, what he, he, you know, p- poverty, but also like all of his friends becoming, you know, going to jail- Mm ... and being, you know, doing all this kind. And he, he escaped it with discipline. You know, which is like, it's, it's, it's really incredible. Yeah. Also, by the way, he loves bass fishing. I know he does. Big bass fishing. I mean, he, he is, he has had a little foray into fishing television. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh- ... he's, he's, uh, a- and then, you know, he's got the lake. He loves the bass fishing. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I would think that he, uh, he's a very interesting guy and, and certainly the fishing angle, that's one of the reasons why I, you know, know anything about him. I mean- Yeah ... certainly I'm a fan of sports and things, but then when you, when I find out that any athlete is a fisherman, I'm like, "Wow, that's pretty cool." You know? Like- I'm, I'm the same way. Yeah ... but especially, especially him. Like- Yeah ... he is an incredible athlete [01:05:00] Yep. Well, that may be one that I'll come back, I'll come back to. Yeah ... yeah, Bo Jackson would be another one. Like- Yeah ... and he's a hunter and a fisherman and- Yep ... just, and a freak athlete. I mean- Yeah, but- of, of once in a, what? Once in a 300-year, 500-year athlete? I don't know. Yeah. I mean- And they were, they were contemporaries ... we haven't even been up for long. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, and that, that's, uh, I, I, I got to see Bo Jackson play, um, professional baseball and college football. I took my dad to the Iron Bowl, and we watched, uh, Bo Jackson beat Alabama in the Iron Bowl. Mm-hmm. When we, when Alabama's big running back was, uh, Bobby Humphrey. Yep. And then we had, uh, Bo Jackson on the other side. And man, they won that one. Yep. That's what, that w- But that's the only time I actually got to see Bo Jackson in person play football. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he was incredible. A, a contemporary of mine wrote a really good book about Bo Jackson, so there's, there's one already out there. And Bo loves [01:06:00] bow hunting. He loves deer hunting. Yes, I know. He's a big hunter. Um, so yeah I mean, there's a guy that, that is so good. I mean, he has been world-class at many different things. Can you imagine him as a bow hunter? And, and, you know, you're n- ... you're nerdy already as a bow, bow hu- bow hunter, and you have to get your bow dialed in perfectly. Mm-hmm. I would think that Bo Jackson would be so into that. Like, I don't know, you see some other athletes that all of a sudden they start playing golf or something, and, and they put in the same amount of practice that they did in their original sport. Yep. But then also, like, a Bo Jackson sees how a bow and arrow works, and, and gets all the best gear, and then does the, the work to get perfect at it. I mean, watch out. He's gonna be one- It's, uh, he- And also he's starting, where everybody else starts down here, he's starting... His, his baseline is way up here. Yep. Like- Yep. You know, [01:07:00] it's funny you bring that up 'cause it's a lot like, uh, I have a story about Andy Mill in that, uh, collection of story, in Rivers Always Reach the Sea, and it's a lot like Andy. I mean, Andy- Yeah ... was, he never really maybe reached his potential as a ski racer, but he was the best in the United States by far. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, you know, finished sixth in the Olympics one year, and then sort of translated that to tarpon tournament angling, and became, you know, the Tiger Woods of the tarpon tournament- Yeah angling scene, um, so yeah, it's fascinating. Why would that be, why would that be any surprise? I mean, when you start out and your mindset is, is excellence- Yep ... and then you go to, I don't know, someplace where it's not that, you're starting at a place that other people are never even gonna get to. Yeah, yep. I mean, you gotta put it... He, he will, he'll often say that tarpon angling was his redemption, right? Because he, he, he didn't feel like he reached his full potential as a skier. He, he was known as the wildhund, which is wild dog. The Europeans called him that 'cause he was always nuts on the course. Like insane [01:08:00] lines on the course, but he was also insane off the course, partying in Val d'Isère and Wengen and all that sort of stuff. And so he'll say that he, Tarpon fishing was kind of like his second chance that he, Tarpon tournament angling, where he could, he was kind of mature enough to put it all together. And, but like, as you said, he had learned what excellence, he'd seen what excellence was. Like he'd kind of like, and he'd been excellent, really. I mean, if you're one of the top, you know, 10 downhillers in the world, you're excellent. You know, there's no doubt about it. Maybe you're not the top, but you're excellent. So it is fascinating, this transferring of skills. You know, there's another, just to bring up one other person like that is the first college football book I ever did was called Fourth and Goal. It was about the guy who was the CEO of TD Ameritrade, who always wanted to be a college football coach and had coached a lot, coached at Dartmouth, you know, back when he was 25 or whatever, then got into finance. And he quit at age 60 and decided to pursue a job in college football. No one wanted to hire him because they were like, who's this rich, weird kook [01:09:00] like trying to do it? And he finally gets a job at Coastal Carolina, turns that program totally around. Again, a transferable thing, right? I mean, he learned how to lead. He learned how to manage people. He had a lot of discipline, and he just transferred that over to coaching college football. It doesn't always work. There was another guy named Bill Campbell who was a great finance guy who was a terrible football coach. But it is interesting when it does happen. It's fascinating. Yeah. Well, some people, you get good at one thing, you can get good at anything. Yeah. So I appreciate you coming back on. This has been fascinating. I can't wait to read. I'm going to read, you know, I just kind of skimmed through the books, but, and saw some friends and other people in your fishing book. But I also want to read the other one because good stories, man. But I appreciate you coming on. Of course. And good job being so busy over the last five years. Got to keep it going. Writing all [01:10:00] this. Yeah, man. Well, good luck to you. Got to get those kids through college. I really appreciate you coming back on. Where do people, where do they get your books wherever they're sold? Or do you- Yeah, wherever they're sold, Amazon. I've got a, Amazon's a good place. And then I've got a, my own website too, if you just want to check them out and see if you, if you look at them before you buy them, you can order and you can reach me there too. And then there's also your emails on the bottom of the website, so you can get- And if you feel free to send me any kind of email you want, you can chastise me. You can, whatever you want to do. All right. Well, I appreciate it. And we'll be back next week with another great guest. Monty, thank you very much. Great catching up with you. Thank you, Tom.