Ryan Johnston | RJ's Fly Trips | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 977

Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 978: Ryan Johnston

In this episode: boat number 6 on the South Fork of the Snake, whether you can really make money as a fly fishing guide, Mag Bay and Puerto Rico saltwater trips, writing 'A Real Job', and the founding of Cast Hope — in the exact words spoken.

00:00 · Cold Open

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Ryan Johnston: My name is Ryan Johnston. I've been a fly fishing guide for twenty two years. I'm the founder and executive director of Cast Hope, and this is a Tom Rowland podcast.

01:51 · A One-Day Turnaround and Common Ground in Montana

Tom Rowland: Ryan, what's up, man?

Ryan Johnston: Good to see you, man. Thanks for inviting me on the show.

Tom Rowland: I know. It was a very quick turnaround from, initial contact to doing it, and then this this is gonna be one of the fastest turnarounds we've ever had. This is gonna be on tomorrow. So we're gonna Jake's gonna be busy editing this one tonight, but we had a hole

Ryan Johnston: in the

Tom Rowland: schedule and, and it worked out perfect. And so, you know, we've we've never met and, well, we have a lot in common. You're a fishing guide. You're in Montana?

Ryan Johnston: Yes, sir. Been here for about three years. Lived in Northern California and guided there for two decades. Did five summers guiding in Idaho, when I was in my late twenties before we had kids. And so I've been, you know, bouncing around three different states of guiding, and now I find myself in Montana for the last three years.

Tom Rowland: Okay. What part of Montana?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. We're located up in the Northwest Corner. The big town is Kalispell. We're about two hours north of Missoula for people who get a little geography lesson here.

Tom Rowland: Right on. Yeah. My son worked up there around Glacier. Both my boys went to Montana State, and so they, have a lot of Montana in their blood. But my oldest son, he worked up there around Glacier at a ranch, a really cool ranch up there. Anyway, but beautiful up there. So so nice. What part of Idaho did you guide in?

03:23 · Boat Number 6: Guiding the South Fork of the Snake

Ryan Johnston: So I guided on the South Fork Of The Snake, and I I know you have some of that old roots. So That's where

Tom Rowland: I got it too. Guess what my guess what my boat number was?

Ryan Johnston: Oof.

Tom Rowland: It might even be here.

Ryan Johnston: Sub 1,000?

Tom Rowland: 6.

Ryan Johnston: Wow. Yeah. That's

Tom Rowland: My boat number was 6, and I have it around here somewhere. I I should have it somewhere I could see it. Jake, do you see a tag over there? It's brown. It says it has a six on it anywhere. Anyway, it doesn't matter. My number was 6. My boss's number was 1. He got number 1. So we were, so I worked for Bressler Outfitters. We were the only out, Wyoming guide that or Wyoming Outfitter that had a license on the South Fork Of The Snake River. And for whatever reason, when they decided, I think it might have been kind of because they the Idaho people didn't like us coming over there and so they instituted that, that boat number, kind of program. And for whatever reason, they gave us the first ones. So Joe Bressler had number one and we were a very small outfit at that at that time. I was the lowest on the totem Pole and that was number six. But still, that's a little bit of history there that that I should have that thing framed because now I don't know what the numbers are now. What is a number on the South Fork?

Ryan Johnston: Well, there's only six permits to guide the South Fork, so it doesn't matter which whether you're in Wyoming or Idaho, you have to own one of those six. Mhmm. Yeah. My family owns a property in Star Valley, so just down the hill from Jacksonville.

Tom Rowland: The Square Scoop.

Ryan Johnston: What's that?

Tom Rowland: The home of the the home of the square scoop, Star Valley. Or not Swan Valley. Swan Valley is the home of the square scoop. You ever go get a square ice cream cone? A 100%. It's got the Humbleberry, man. Square scoop. That's right. That's right. But Star Valley, that's where your family, has property?

Ryan Johnston: Yes, sir. Yeah. We had property there since the early nineties. So Star Valley is the next valley south of Swan, and spent five summers guiding on the South work. Worked for an Orbis Lodge from '27 to my early thirties and, had a blast, you know, guiding out there. I mean, it's one of the best dry fly fisheries of the West. And, Isn't it?

Tom Rowland: That place is amazing. It's it's so great. My boys, like I said, they were at Montana State, but they rarely got down that far. And so when my son was getting married, we did his bachelor party. I he was nice enough to invite me to his bachelor party. It wasn't the same bachelor party that most people have. We went fishing and we did it over we did, a canyon shot on the South Fork, and I was so excited to show them that river because they just had not seen it. They just I don't know. I mean, Montana's awesome, but that river is amazing. I mean, it really is an amazing river.

Ryan Johnston: I mean, it's gotta be top 10 fisheries of the West. Something about throwing big dry flies and, you know, having fish that are averaging 16 to 18 inches and, you know, cutthroats, browns, rainbows, the whole mix. And then having, you know, over 50 fishable miles and, you know, not getting stuck to one drift below it, you know, some certain dam and a tail water. Like, it's it's truly a special spot and, yeah, way better than most Montana rivers, to be honest.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You know, my first guided trip ever was on the Salt River right there next to your house probably. And and the takeout I remember Joe Bressler saying, okay. You're gonna go down to the salt and, the takeout. You can't miss the takeout. If you miss the takeout, you're gonna end up in Palisades Reservoir. And I was terrified. I was so terrified. Every little side channel that I saw, I was, like, getting out of the boat and, like, wading the boat over there and, like, like, trying to see if if that was the ramp or or a side channel or I just I was so terrified. That was wow. Good times. Do you remember your first guided trip?

07:42 · Two First Guided Trips and the Brad Pitt Effect

Ryan Johnston: I do. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of commonality here, Tom. My first guided trip was actually on the South Fork Of The Snake. I had never touched a fly rod before. And, something about watching cutthroat rise to a dry fly. The next day we were in a local mom and pop fly shop and bought a finlic rod, and, I actually learned how to fish on the salt. That's really where I taught myself, and that's where my passion of fly fishing began. I still fish it when I go back. It's not nearly the fishery it was thirty years ago, but, kind of a side note, but I have told all my family that whenever my time here on earth ends, I'll be cremated and my ashes are gonna be dumped into the Salt River. So that's my wishes. Salt.

Tom Rowland: Alright on. Salt. Yeah. Right on. Yeah.

Ryan Johnston: It's got Okay. Gotta end where it started. Right? You know, start where the passion is found. Yeah. I love it.

Tom Rowland: But what was tell me about your first guided trip.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. We, we fished on you

Tom Rowland: first. Where

Ryan Johnston: Oh, where I was guiding or the Yeah. Me being guided?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You know, where you were guiding?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. So I was 12 years old. It was my birthday, and I'm pretty sure my father used it as an excuse to go on a guided fishing trip. Him or me had never fly a fish before, and we saw the famous Brad Pitt scene and made us wanna be curious about it. And so, yeah, upper drifts of the, you know, South Fork, we're cracking off flies because we're casting too fast and the guides frustrated. But, you know, caught a handful of fish on dry flies and just saw those fish rising off the bank. And I was raised conventional fishing, raised in San Diego, fishing offshore. And something about that visual aspect, watching the cutthroat rise, it really just caught my soul, you know, and it just started this long journey. It was just kind of a summer thing for me for a long time going out to my family's property in Star Valley. And then, once I graduated high school, I left San Diego, moved to Northern California, and then found myself in kind of a flight fishing play land with, you know, steelhead and stripers and bass and trout and all the different things that Northern California provides. So, what's really cool and a full circle story is so I started my first guide trip ever, first day fly fishing ever, 12 years old on the South Fork Of The Snake. I would end up guiding the South Fork Of The Snake fifteen years later. So the first place I casted a fly, I would end up guiding, you know, my late twenties. So, to take it another step, I have a kid I've mentored through our organization, Cast Hope, who would become a guide there, ten years after I left. So that whole area of Jackson Hole, Star Valley, Swan Valley, that held a huge part of my heart. It's where my passion was found for the sport. And I still go back there for a month every summer. The whole month of August, I'm I'm hanging out in that that zone. So

Tom Rowland: That's awesome. And so how did you, how did you become a guide?

10:59 · From UC Davis to a Blue Drift Boat: Becoming a Guide

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I, went to UC Davis for college. So, this is 2001. My freshman year of college, I think I fished ninety days on the water. I, you know, barely passed my classes, but, you know, I just you know, in San Diego, there wasn't a lot of freshwater options. It was mostly offshore, saltwater stuff. So unless you owned a boat, that was not easily accessible. So up there, all of a sudden, you know, it wasn't just a summer thing. Okay. Well, I have I'm surrounded by water that I can walk and wade and do a bunch of stuff. So, just became familiar my freshman year. And then I started working at a local fly shop my sophomore year of college a year later, and did that for about a year. And then the fly shop owner's like, hey, have you ever thought about guiding? And I hadn't, you know, I I didn't think I had enough skill. But my parents, as I was raised as a kid, they loved road tripping. And so every summer we took trips across the Rockies. And as a youth and teenager, I got to experience some of the top fisheries across the West, and I was hand taught by guides over like a five or six year period. And so on a whim, the owner of the fly shop convinced me I should check it out, and I needed about $5,000 to go buy a drift boat, you know, to, to kind of get in the game. So, over Christmas break, I went and talked to my grandfather, walked into his office of his company, sat down in front of him and said, Grandpa, can you give me a $5,000 loan? I really want to buy a drift boat. I want to become a guide. I want this to become kind of a source of income for me. And so he's like peering over these glasses, looking at me and he's like, you know what, grandson? He goes, he doesn't need to be alone. I'm just gonna write you a $5,000 check and we'll call it a Christmas gift. And you go show those boys, you know, how to work hard. And that was the start. And, two months later, I had my first guy trip and had no freaking clue what I was doing. But you just piece it together. Right? And that's turned into

Tom Rowland: twenty two years. That first boat tell me what that first boat was.

Ryan Johnston: So I bought a high side hide, that I had I think I rode it for seven years before I, you know, traded in for a new one.

Tom Rowland: What color was it?

Ryan Johnston: It was blue and white with a yellow streak through the middle. I've always had a blue drift boat for twenty two years.

Tom Rowland: That's the color of my first drift boat. I got a clacker craft first. My first boat was a clacker craft, and that was, you know, we used to guide the snake in in a, 18 foot John boat. And that's I mean, we I I rode that river lots of times in an 18 foot John boat with customers. Back then, you know, there weren't it wasn't that common to see drift boats. You would see there was like a Yellowstone drifter. There were a couple of clacker crafts around, some some aluminum cofflers, but it was not a common thing and certainly very, very uncommon for a private individual to have a drift boat back then unless they were like a carpenter and they built one. You would see these beautiful, unbelievably handcrafted, you know, drift boats that somebody had made in their garage over the winter. But other than that, you would see a lot of rafts or john boats. And then, you know, it was a funny time back then. I I, you know, I've I've talked about this a number of times, but that period, you know, with the movie A River Runs Through It, when that came out, it really spurred on so many things. It wasn't just the movie, but it was like a perfect storm of so many different things that were happening at the same time. So that movie brought tons of people just out to the West. Right? They they thought, oh, well, that looks like Jackson. So we got a lot of those people that saw the movie. But, I mean, it wasn't filmed there like it was filmed further north. And, but, anyway, they came. And then the rods got better, then we had the Gore Tex wader, fly lines got better, like, everything got better, more comfortable, and then there was this resurgence of, like, drift boat manufacturers. And so now the boats are better. The you know, you're in Gore Tex waders and not these giant duck hunting waders. Like, everything just got better, and it made it much more, it, you know, it brought down the, like, the the the intimidation factor of fly fishing, I think, at that time. But so many things got better all at once. And then, you know, there were more shops and more flies. I mean, it was just easier for everybody because the difference between like I told you, I was number six on the river there, and I was the I was the sixth guide in our in our outfit. But the following year was when the movie came out, and then we had 26 guides. Like, it grew that fast that quickly, like, so many people there. And then just like the guy that was asking you to be a guide, I mean, my boss was just like, you can you row a boat? Like, he's just throwing people in there. And but that was an incredible explosion that I don't think that we'll ever have again because it wasn't just the movie. It was all of these other innovations too that that happened kind of all at a really wild time, for that. And and we got so many people and women in in the sport too. Like that it wasn't really being pushed towards women at all and then it made it I mean, we had we had, in in our outfit, we had the first, three female guides in Jackson, were were all employed from Wrestler Outfitters. Laurieann Murphy, Kim Keeley, and Christy Ball, they were all there all at once. So I don't know. That was a really strange explosion in fishing.

Ryan Johnston: Sounds like I started at a perfect time. Everything was easier.

17:20 · 100 Videos: Sharing 22 Years of Guide Opinions

Tom Rowland: You did. That's right. You did. You did. I like your videos. Like, when I was doing some research on on you right away, you got these videos on your on your Instagram account, which is, r j s r j's fly trips on Instagram. Right? R j s Yep. Fly trips? Yep. Okay. So r j's fly trips on Instagram. That's your account. You got some really great videos there. You have a little series. What I could tell is I think there are, like, nine videos so far. And you said that you were gonna plan on doing this for for a year, and it's kind of like, so you wanna be a fishing guide. And you go over these different different, subjects. I wrote a few of them down. I mean, it it starts out like the the last I watched them in reverse, actually. So I watched the latest one first, and then I I was interested in that. And so I went back and and it's it's really pretty interesting. Have you had good feedback on those?

Ryan Johnston: I I have. Yeah. I've I've committed to doing a 100 of them, which I know is a pretty big commitment. And I'm figuring two a week for a year. You know, for after twenty two years of doing this and guiding in three different states and, you know, also running a nonprofit where I'm hiring guides, I think I have a pretty unique perspective of what guiding truly is. And, I just have a big heart for people who are thinking about becoming guides, younger guides. I think a lot of people get into guiding because they think it's some sexy career, And it totally can be, you know, but then over time, it just morphs, you know, and it's a great career if you're single. Like, if you're a single man or a single woman, like, absolutely go for it. You know, put your whole heart into it. But then when you get married, it changes. And when you have kids, it changes. You know, the dynamics of, you know, my family's now more important than me being on the water first and being off the water last. And, you know, I think you get to this point, you know, we we talked about before the show where there's some mastery that happens. You kinda you start understanding where the fish are gonna show up that, oh, I don't need to be there until the tide switches or I don't need to be there till 10:00 when the flies come off or the hatch comes off. So I I don't know. I I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective that's very honest. And I just I just wanna share that with people, and I just wanna have a conversation. And some of the videos are me ranting because there's some really wrong views of what guiding is, you know, and I'm trying to correct those into what my opinion of guiding. And I'm not trying to say that I know all and I've experienced all by hand.

Tom Rowland: No. It's your it's your opinion. Right? Yes. It's your opinion, and and and it's your experience that's showing that. So let's let's talk about, like, one of the things that you think is kind of a wrong idea about guiding.

20:17 · Can You Really Make Money as a Fishing Guide?

Ryan Johnston: Well, I mean, one of it is that you can make a bunch of money as a guide. And, you know, that that one's tricky. Right? Because financially, everyone has a different perspective in the world. Right? I mean, if you make a $100,000, the guy who makes 200 is the wealthy guy, right? And so you have to kind of check yourself at the door of like, what is your true perspective in my opinion? And can you make a good living? A 100%. I mean, I've done it for over two decades. Like I literally fly fishing has been my living. Now it's like you, it's morphed into other things. It's beyond just guiding now. And so, yes, I have provided for myself and my family. My my wife doesn't work. You know, she stays home and she homeschools our kids. So like, yes, there is a a decent chunk of money, but are you become a millionaire? Probably not. I mean, there are a few guys who do it, but, you know, in my opinion, those guys who do become millionaires as fishing guides, I mean, it's like the same odds of you making the NFL or the NBA. Like, it's a sub, you know, half

Tom Rowland: of the subs of Maybe they, maybe they made a small fortune. Like, there are people that make a small fortune guiding. And you know how you do that most effectively? You start with a large

Ryan Johnston: Mary. What's that?

Tom Rowland: You start with a large fortune, and then you end up with a small fortune.

Ryan Johnston: Or or marry sugar mama or daddy. You know? Sugar mama and daddy. So I I I lost that.

Tom Rowland: Certainly can happen.

Ryan Johnston: You know, like That certainly could

Tom Rowland: happen, but there are there is a draw for, like, guiding. So they're they're guys that are charging over $1,000 a day. So if somebody does the math and they're like, woah, thousand dollars a day, let's just use that for I mean, there's guys that charge way more than that. But let's just say a thousand dollars a day. You do a thousand dollars a day and you work three hundred days a year. Okay? If you're gonna be in a place where you're working three hundred days a year, that is going to be a high tourism area like, well, Jackson won't even count because it's winter there sometimes and the and the water is frozen. So let's just say Key West. You're going to Key West where I mean, that's this is what I did. I went to Key West. I did work three hundred days a year for more than ten years. And in order to the the reason I had to do that is because Key West is a tourist place where the real estate and the houses and everything there is extremely expensive. And so in order to provide for your family, that's about how much time you have to put on the water. So you're making and we didn't charge a thousand dollars a day. We was way less than that when I started. But let's just say you have a thousand dollars. You work three hundred days a year. That's $300,000. In order to support that, you probably have to have all the right equipment, which might be a $150,000 boat. And you need to pull that boat with a $100,000 truck, and you have a payment on that. And then you want to provide for your family so you live in a nicer neighborhood. And all of a sudden, that 300,000, believe it or not, you're barely making a profit. Barely. You are providing a nice lifestyle, but you're not putting any money away. And it happens very, very, very often. And so, and then every year, you're getting a new boat. Okay? Sometimes you can get into a situation to where, that makes financial sense, but oftentimes, it doesn't. And you just have a nice boat at your office. Like, I used to think of it that way. Like, I spend almost all my time in this boat. I want a nice boat. Like, I want a good one. Right? And also, this is what people are paying for. So I want I want a perfectly nice boat. I wanna keep it super clean, and I want it really, really nice. But that comes at a cost, right? Like there's a payment on that every every month and and on a blue sky month, you book thirty days, you fish thirty days. But most months you got three or four or five weather days. Maybe somebody doesn't even show up. Right? Like, I don't know. It that's a that's kind of the more accurate scenario that I don't think that people necessarily see is that the expenses are so high. Then and then you got fuel. Right? And breakdowns and maintenance and, yeah, all that kind of stuff.

Ryan Johnston: Well, and I think there's

Tom Rowland: Go ahead.

Ryan Johnston: There's another aspect to that too. You know, like, the the cost is extremely high. You know, like, talk about cost of living, but let let's be honest. If you're pulling a boat for three hundred days in a season, what's the effects on your body? I mean, yeah, you could do it for two or three years, but you did it for ten. Like, your body is going to break down because your body's not gonna get enough rest. The other part of that is that when you have a family, if you're guiding 300 days a year, you're the vacant dad. You're the guy who's not around ever. And I'll be honest here, there's a reason why most guides have second, third relationships, wives, lots of divorce rates. It's because we were required to be on the water so much and away from home for so long. I never did three hundred days like you. I was doing, like, low two hundreds, you know? And even at that, like, you know, you're pulling a boat, I'm rowing a boat, like, your body starts breaking down over time. And, you know, this idea of having longevity of trying to maximize your season, like, okay, there's 30 fishable days. I have to hit all 30 because I gotta make X amount of dollars. Yeah. You have to do it when you're young because you're trying to provide for people. But the reality is, is what does that look like in ten years? Like, you know, when you look at drift boat guides from in their fifties, those dudes could barely walk. You know? So Right. You either have to be really financially smart and put money away. You gotta marry someone who's in money or already have money. Because like you said, it's really hard to take that and stow that money into savings, retirement accounts. And then, you know, by the time you're a drift boat guy, like, 55? You better have a different plan.

26:23 · Tips, Outfitters, and Going Independent

Tom Rowland: Yep. But it can be done. It can be done. And some people have done a very good job of it, and some people are very disciplined with their money. Usually, those people that are very disciplined with their money and have done a very good job with it have been fishing out of the same boat for the last twenty years. Right? Like, then they've got an old truck, and they they know how to then they're they're they're watching their expenses very, very carefully. But, so that's one. What, I like the I like your, idea on tipping. Let's talk about tipping. What's your feeling on tipping a fishing guide?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I mean, it's standard to our industry, you know, so I I think, you know, it's required. I think sometimes you get situations where you do have people to show up that don't know and don't know that's the industry standard. In general, I believe baseline should be a $100 tip per person, you know. I know for you guys in the saltwater, it's, you know, you're you're charging more, so your tips are gonna be larger, you know, in general. But, yeah. You know, I I tell people usually in the boat, you know, a $100 a person is a great tip. So if you're in a drift boat, you're getting handed $200 in cash in a day. Every guide's stoked. Yeah. I think a 100 is the minimum. $50 a person, you know, is kind of the minimum, you know, to to keep your guide happy. I've been blanked one time in twenty two years. There have been some situations where people didn't tip me, and I just reached out and said, hey. I just wanna make sure that you had a good experience. Is there something I can do better in the future? You know? So that way I can learn, like, because you didn't tip and they're like, oh, wow. Wait. That was I was supposed to do that. So I think that sometimes you get those situations. I think it's appropriate to have a follow-up phone call or text message, email, whatever, you know, way you wanna connect with them. I think it's totally appropriate. And most every situation, the person has, you know, sent me a tip, you know, post trip. Only one time did the guy was like, yeah, man. Sorry. I I don't wanna pay anymore. I already paid you $650 for the day, and that feels like a good wage for me. You know? So it was one guy's opinion. But yeah, I mean, it's customary to our industry, just like tipping a waiter or waitress. So I think everyone should do it.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I feel Yeah, I hear you. And, and believe me, I lived on tips. I mean, I'm very grateful and thankful for the tips, but I never wanted to, I never wanted to count on it. I felt like if, if like, let's just say you're, I mean, back when I was fishing all the time, it was like $500 a day. Or so if if you're charging $500 a day, but you're doing all your books and and you're budgeting for $700 a day because you're just assuming that you're gonna get this $200 tip, That's a recipe for trouble because a lot of times you're not gonna get it. And and you said something interesting that I wanted to talk to you about. You said in the saltwater, you know, you guys charge more, so your tips are bigger. But I don't think that's necessarily true. And that's one of the questions I wanted to ask you because, yes, on occasion or if it goes by percentage, like, if you're gonna go to a more expensive restaurant and you're gonna tip 20%, which is which is customary, it's going to be more expensive than if you go to a less expensive restaurant. Right? But I think that so many saltwater guides are owner operators. Right? So they're not splitting what you're paying them with anyone else. They don't have there's not an outfitter involved. Right? But if you go out west and you're gonna fish on the South Fork Of The Snake River, none of those guys are owner operators. They they are working for a day wage. So, personally, I would be more likely to give a kid that takes me out fishing on the South Fork and and works his ass off because I've been there, first of all. I've already done that, and I know what that's like. He is not in charge of how much the trip costs. He's just there to show up and show you a good time, and he's gonna get paid the same regardless. So I would actually be more likely, and it makes more sense to me, to give that person a bigger tip because you're trying to help him out a little bit. The the guy in Saltwater that owns his own boat, I mean, it, you know, like, you're gonna give him, you know, thousand dollars, and he's keeping all thousand dollars. So but I don't know that people even even think about that. But it makes more sense to me that the the the kid that's paying or the person who is who is working for an outfitter needs the money more than someone else. And if he's charging a thousand dollars and that's not enough, then he needs to raise his rates to 1,200 and not assume that you're gonna get the $200 tip. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I I mean, logically, I totally understand it. I totally get it. I've been in both situations. So, sixteen years in California, I was an independent guy. You know, I ran my own program. I didn't work for an outfitter, on the South Fork for five summers. I did work for an outfitter, so I was making half of the money. You know, so California money was way better, but California in the summertime, there wasn't a lot to do when I first started guiding. So you had to kind of find a summer plan. The tips didn't change, whether I was running my own trip or whether I was working for an outfitter and making less money per day. I really believe tips are predetermined, for the most part before your client steps on the boat. Now, if you do a bad job and you know, you're chewing the guy out because he can't make the cast or he's getting in a bunch of tangles, then I think that tip can be reduced. I think rarely is that tip increased, you know, unless they have some magical experience to catch a fish of a lifetime. And I don't really believe that even affects the tip, You know? I think there's more ability to reduce the tip than there is to increase it. But, yeah, I I totally understand what you're saying, Tom. And, like, I have had that thought many times. At the same time, I believe you do have to keep your pricing competitive, you know, unless you have a massive book. You know, if you have a huge book of clients, then keep creeping that price up. And if they keep staying with you, then good for you, you know? But for the average guy who's trying to make, you know, a book of clients and stay relative, I think you do have to keep your pricing competitive versus the other captains. And only through lots of clients can you start, you know, pushing that number up, in my opinion. You know, when I when I left California, you know, I was doing about a hundred and ninety days a year and, five of those clients were doing a hundred and twenty five days. So I think we probably have a little bit of commonality in this too. I'm sure with your background, you had some massive clients. So my top client when I left California was doing 40 trips a year with me, you know, and I was doing that for a decade with this guy. So we became dear friends. He's still one of my dear friends when I do any hosted trips, like these are the kinds of guys that get invited. And then, so if one hundred and twenty, eighty five of those days were taken, you know, the rest of the days, let's call them seventy days, were through another 10 clients. I was only guiding 15 guys. And I always had my prices marked higher than everyone else because they weren't gonna go anywhere else. You know? It wasn't like I was price gouging them, you know, but they knew they were paying to fish with someone who was really good and that was coming at a premium.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. They're happy to do it. And that's exactly what happens to almost every fishing guide is the more the longer you do it, the more days you do it, the fewer clients that you actually have. And it was exactly the same with me with just a handful of three or four people, you know, I mean, literally fishing like a hundred days a piece. And that's awesome. I hope I can get there one day. Yeah. It would be so awesome to fish a 100 days a year with your favorite guide. Oh. But that, that's, I don't know. It's it's great to, to have those customers. And then when you do have those customers, man, you gotta take care of them. Like, that is something. So you mentioned the hosted trips. Where what what kind of hosted trips do you like to do? What are your favorite destinations?

34:54 · A Saltwater Junkie in Mag Bay with the Los Locos Boys

Ryan Johnston: Yes. I'm a saltwater junkie. I love saltwater fishing. I did a trip two years ago for my fortieth birthday. We went down to Mag Bay and we fished with the Los Locos boys. You know, I know they're a big hot in the map now. We fished with them on their second season, so it was a lot cheaper when I went. So I took seven guys down there and we went and targeted striped marlin on the fly. And growing up in San Diego, I've chased lots of tuna and dorado and yellowtail, and I've done a lot of offshore fishing, like hundreds of days of offshore fishing. But pulling up on a bait ball and watching free swimming striped marlin feed, that was like National Geographic stuff. Like, my my brain is blown. And it's probably the coolest saltwater thing I've ever experienced. We were there just for five nights and four days. Unfortunately, two of the days we got blown off, we couldn't go offshore, which was what's great. You know, Mag Bay has a huge inshore fishery, so we stayed inside. But the first day in Mag Bay, I actually was fishing with my dad, and we hooked eight strike marlin, on day one, like, sight fishing them, having them eat 30 feet off the boat. And, you know, the coolest thing, which I was just blown away by was, you know, when you, when you into a boiling tuna or foamers, like there's just chaos, but the striped marlin wasn't chaos. You know, there was like the first bait ball we pulled up on, there was maybe 20 marlin, you know, working this bait ball, but but there was only like five of them that were actively feeding. You know, they were all lit up glowing. And then they had like 10 of them were underneath the bait ball, just pushing the bait up. And then there was like five on the edges patrolling. And then one would feed for a couple of minutes and then it would slide off and one would move in. And like, it was just like a pack of wolves just devouring this, you know, 10 foot wide bait ball. And I don't know, man. That was, that was incredible. I'm actually going to No Name Lodge at the end of this month to go fish for

Tom Rowland: those really good things about that. Yeah. Really good things about that. My friends, in Key West have been going there. Nickel Beatty's been going there a bunch. I've I've seen pictures. It looks really good.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I, got connected with them through the Los Locos guys. And so they said, hey, if you think this is cool, this is equivalent on the East Coast. They're kind of just getting started. And I know they're three or four seasons in now. So I'm taking a group of, you know, five of us, six of us, I should say. And, so, yeah, May 31, we're hop on a plane and fly into Puerto Rico.

37:37 · Puerto Rico and What Traveling Teaches a Guide

Tom Rowland: Alright. I think that, I think that'll be a really good trip. First of all, I think Puerto Rico is really interesting because, for one thing, it's a United States territory, which makes it easy to travel there. I think there's plenty of, you know, hospitals and other things in case something bad happens, which is not the case on the trip I just got back from. I just went to The Seychelles and, it was kind of a a you know, it was a it was pretty much the big one, I think, for me. That's a very expensive trip and it's a trip it's a very, very, very long trip. But I went with actually some more Jackson Hole, you know, commonality here. It was a Worldcast trip that I tagged onto. So a couple of my friends, they go on a lot of the Worldcast trips. And then Worldcast booked this trip through Fly Castaway, and we end up in Providence Toll. And, this was planned three or four years ago. My buddy said, I'm thinking about doing something really big for my fiftieth birthday. And, I was like, well, what? And he said, Seychelles. And I said, okay. If you do the Seychelles, I'm in. And so I committed to it three years ago. Whenever you commit to something three years ago, it it will never fall at a convenient time. Yeah. It will I mean, all of a sudden, this was like this came at at not a time that I would have planned any sort of trip. Well, my son just had a baby. So we had our first grandchild. My daughter's about to graduate and get married. And, like, there is a lot going on. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, man. I've gotta go literally onto the other side of the world, which I'm glad I did, and it was a great trip. But, man, what a trip to get there. The furthest fishing trip I've taken other than that I I went to Australia one time. That was pretty far away. That was an amazing trip. That was a hosted trip and fun. Christmas Island a couple of times, but that's a that's a long way. But this one is further than either of those. And, man I mean, we started out with a two hour two hour van ride to a thirteen hour thirteen and a half hour flight, twelve hour layover, then an eight and a half hour flight to a day and a half pretty much sitting at this hotel, which was a nice hotel in Mahe, Seychelles. But you just can't miss this boat. Right? Like, it's gonna your trip starts on this day. So if you miss a flight and then that's a twenty four hour, kind of, you know, there's only so many flights, so you don't wanna miss. So we got there early. We made sure that we were gonna get there, get acclimated. It turns out it's, like, a day and a half. And so just to get there is, like, what? Like, that's a day and a half and then another day and a half. This is, like, three, four days of travel to get there. And then there's a three hour flight. We flew to Farquhar, then we fly to Providence, and then we get on the boat. And then that whole day, you're not even fishing. And then the fishing trip starts the next day. But excellent guides. All these guides were South African. Really, really good. I mean, it was one of those trips where where, you you know, like, these other guys, they they haven't fished quite as much as as I have, and they they were asking, like, you know, what do you think about the guides? And I was like, these guides are truly world class. They are as good as you're gonna find anywhere. Florida, Montana, California, anywhere. These guys are top notch, and they really were. They they really, really were, but the South Africans have have a great work ethic. They are extremely polite and very knowledgeable. And what more I mean and and they catch fish. And they wanna catch fish so bad. I mean, we were we were like with Tim Babich. He's like the the legendary guy there. I'm fishing with him. And it's like, Tim, is it time for lunch yet? And he's like, nope. Nope. We're not gonna eat lunch for we gotta stop over here, then we gotta go over there, then we gotta go over there, and then maybe maybe we'll eat lunch after that. And, you know, it's like he wants to catch fish. He wants to catch fish. He wants you to catch fish. And but but what an what an incredible experience. You know, we're on a mother ship, and that was that was cool. The Seychelles the Seychelles were it was a good trip. It was it was a really it was a really good trip. But even I don't know. I would say that there are other places where you catch more fish, but that's not I mean, you kinda go it's kinda like going permit fishing or tarpon fishing or something. You know you're not gonna catch that. Even, even if everything goes perfectly, you're not gonna catch a 100 fish. You're just it's just not set up for that. But the the GT fishing, the trigger fish, we call bonefish. But then one of my favorite things was, like, just all these different wild species. They would do this thing called balmy bashing where you just put these big flies on and you throw out these coral heads. Nice. And I guess this is I guess this is what the keys were like, you know, a hundred and fifty years ago, where you could just roll up to a coral head and throw a fly in there and no chum, nothing. And all of a sudden, you know, a a 25 pound grouper comes off the bottom and smashes that thing on the surface. Like, seriously, that was what was happening. It was bizarre. They had these incredible snappers, that were they they just would if we had that in The Keys, people wouldn't even fish for bonefish. They would just be doing that all the time. It was it was incredible. But I love that. When you go to one of those, when you go to one of those those destinations like that where you where you have a really good time and you see some stuff that you haven't seen before, it can change everything about, about your fishing career. Like, have you ever taken a trip where it just, like, reset your whole brain on what's possible and what you wanna do with the rest of your life? Like, I've gotta come back here. I've gotta host more trips, or I wanna see so many more things.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I mean, I I think I think anytime we get out of our normal world, right, we get our eyes open to to new ways to do things or, you know, South African guides. Right? And, MacBay was greatly eye opening to me. I actually had, one of the days we fished inside, they, you know, they had their full Ponga boats trying to fish inside the Bay and they were fishing an outgoing tide. Well-being raised in San Diego, you know, I was, I was taught how to throw a shooting head when I was 14 and I, I was raised on fishing tidal water and knowing how to, you know, mend your shooting head, which, you know, allow it to sink further. And a lot of these guys, those local guys were younger and then they didn't have trolling motors on their boats, so they weren't really, you know, set up appropriately. And, so we get up to this first kind of tidal ledge they wanna fish and we're throwing nine ways with 350 grain heads and, you know, four or two ack clousers. And, it was really interesting watching how they were doing it. And in my mind, you know, like, I already knew it wasn't working. Like, our flies weren't sinking far enough. And and so, they have a Mexican captain and then you have one of the most Locos guides with you. And I said, Hey, man, we're, we're not going to catch anything this way because you're in 20 feet of water according to your, you know, depth finder. And, our flies are probably in five feet of water. And so I was like, you know, tell, tell the guy to put the boat into reverse to actually go with the tide rather than motoring against it. And, you know, then I'll tell you when to put the boat in neutral, and then we'll start stripping so our lines stay perpendicular. He's like, what are you talking about? I was like, dude, I I've guided for stripers in a river for a decade. Like, this is exactly like striper fishing. So we had done their system for, like, fifteen, twenty minutes, hadn't got a bump. And then, you know, I'm fishing with one of my regular clients on a host trip, and so we cast and we mend and we let our lines sink. The captain's listening to, you know, boat control. And then I said, okay. Put it in neutral, and then we both start we strip twice and we both double up. And the the lowest lucky guys, he looks at me. He's like, what the hell, dude? I was like, well, you need a trolling motor to do this right. But, it so we kind of changed their methods. And then, that evening, he talked to the guy who runs the whole program. And the guy the next morning after breakfast is like, Ryan, can I come can we go for a walk down the beach? I'm like, yeah. Sure, man. And so he goes, I heard that you guys had some really awesome experiences yesterday and that you were kinda coaching up our guide staff. I was like, well, yeah. And he goes, how about you come down for a month and you just fish inside the bay and you dial this in and you teach us? And I was like, ten years ago, I would have said yes, you know, but I have a young family. And, it was this eye opening moment for me because it was like, oh, okay. You've been guiding for five or six years. I'm doing it for a lot longer. And, I I mean, it'd be like you having a young tarpon guide take you fishing. Right? Like, you're gonna see things. You're gonna know things instinctually from all that you've learned on thousands of days on the water. And and, you know, I haven't done as many days as you, but I've also, you know, in that same area. And that was kind of eye opening to me that, like, oh, I can go to other places and I can talk to other guides and encourage them. And it's just still part of the video series that we mentioned of, like, you know, we both have things that people can learn from us. And, I just wanna share that, you know? So that trip, not only fishing was mind blowing, but this little interaction that naturally happened, it also kinda started changing my mindset of, like, maybe I need to share this with people and not just keep all the secrets and all the knowledge inside me, you know? And, Yeah.

48:04 · Writing 'A Real Job': True Stories from the Guide Seat

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So I also noticed that you wrote three books or you're in the process of your third, maybe. I don't know. You've written books. So is that part of this knowledge sharing too? Or is that like funny stories? I couldn't quite, I mean, like I just just checked out on the surface, like all about you, but I was interested in, in your, your writing. Tell me about that.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. It's been a fun journey. Actually it started in Star Valley. I was hosting my first group of anglers to Star Valley when I was guiding there. So we had eight of my clients sitting in our house and after dinner one night, we're sipping on bourbon, drinking wine, and one of the clients said, hey, tell me your best guide story. And so I rattled off some funny story. And then that turned into a second one, a third one. And, you know, eventually we've been there for a few hours and, you know, people are making comments, but it's me just, you know, reliving, you know, stupid shit that's happened in the boat and, you know, inspirational things inspirational things that have happened in the boat. And went to bed, not thinking anything of it. And my dad, the next morning, we're sipping on coffee and goes, Wow, last night was awesome. He goes, Do you realize you had the whole room entertained for like two and a half hours? And so, yeah, that was neat. And, you know, he's like, I think there's something there. I think whether for yourself or our family, you should write some of those stories down because when you get to an older man like me, you know, some of that those, you know, specific moments are gonna start getting blurry. And, it kinda sat there in my mind for years. And, when we had our first child, so my oldest is 14, Maggie, I was having a hard time working from home just because of all the crying and, you know, diaper changes. And, you know, when you're home, then you're accessible, so you have to help too. And so I was going and working at, like, a local Starbucks or a local coffee shop, and I'd finished all my laptop work, and I had about three hours before I needed to be back to the house. And so I just opened up Word and just started typing and, you know, God's really gave in, given me this very, I know I, I just, I can relive things. I have this memory that's very, very vivid. When I dream at night, I dream really vivid. And so if something meaningful, I don't know why it has to be meaningful, but like the birth of Maggie, I can literally close my eyes. I can go back into that room. I can see it. I can hear it. I can feel it. And so the same thing happens to me when we're guiding. And, again, it might just be a magical fish. It could be a a really bad client. It could be a really inspirational moment that has nothing to do with fishing. So I just had a blast kind of reliving that and just also getting a little of my own flare of like what I thought was personally happening. And, so I just started doing this like once a month. And over two years, I wrote out the first book and then, you know, we had our second child and then I didn't have any time, right? Like, you know, who has time once you have two babies? And it sat there for years. And then when COVID hit, all my guide trips were canceled. I found myself at home for two months. So I took the whole month of April 2020. I woke up before my family, and I rewrote the whole thing. And I was I was timid, man, you know, because when you write, like, you're putting yourself out there. Like, it's it's more than just talking, you know, on a podcast. And, hired an editor, and I kinda got his feedback. And he's like, dude, the stories are great. You need some help with your writing and that's what you're hiring me for. And, I published the first one. It's called A Real Job, kind of a play on words. And a lot of people liked it. And after a couple 100 private messages of people asking, are you gonna write a second one? I was like, holy shit. Like, there's something here, you know? And it's not a bestseller. Like, you know, I mean, we're not selling, you know, 10,000 copies. You know, we're five years since I published the first book, and, you know, I've sold maybe 2,500 copies. But, yeah, there was enough people asking for more. And so I wrote book number two, And book number two has just been as successful as the first one, and so I just continued. Book three will be coming out next winter. It's currently being edited right now. And book number three is a little bit different because it's a 100% migratory fish, fish that either enter saltwater or live in saltwater full time. So that again, that's kind of my true passion. The first two books have been more freshwater oriented, trout, steelhead, bass, that kind of stuff. But the third book is me a 100% migratory fish. So yeah, I don't know. It's a part of me. I found it's this journey. I do, I publish four or five articles for magazines each year. Just, you know, I'll have a thought come up and like, oh, that's kind of fun and pitch the idea to some people. And, it's not what I do with most of my time, but, you know, it's something I do on the site.

Tom Rowland: So the first book was stories, like real stories that that like, the funniest things you could remember or the most interesting things or inspirational things. Did that carry through to the second one? Like, you had enough stories that you it filled a second book?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I I probably have enough for five books, to be honest. And now guiding Real stories. Yep.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Real other stories that really happened. Okay?

Ryan Johnston: It's a 100 it's a 100% truth, and then you're getting kind of the guy's perspective from it. I think this is what people are really liking. It's not written from an angler's point of view. You know, it's not like, oh, I made the beautiful cast to the sipping cutthroat with the snow capped mountains behind you. It's none of that. It is honest. It's real. Like, this is what's happening. Here's a little bit of a guy's perspective of what, you know, my take on the situation. And it's not all just dumb, silly stuff. I mean, yes, there is that mixed into there for, you know, for laughs. But some of it, man, is, like, really powerful. Like, the first book, the final chapter, it's a really emotional chapter. A lot of people say it actually makes them cry. You know, it's a story about a good friend of mine who was battling cancer. And, I took him fishing on literally the day before he passed away. He would get off the boat. He was on full oxygen tanks. He caught his last fish somehow. He got like a suicide fish that pretty much hooked itself. His wife came to support him. His wife had never fly fished before. He fished for like an hour, caught this suicide fish. It'd be the last fish he catches of his life. And then he asked me, you know, will you teach my wife how to do it? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And so now I'm giving her lessons. She misses a few, hooks a few, loses them, and then literally in the last spot, his wife hooks and lands, not even a big fish. It was like a 16 inch rainbow. But, I mean, being so poetic that my good friend caught and landed his last fish of his life, and his wife of that time caught her first fish on a fly rod of her life. And we had another friend with us and the two of them, as I was growing off, they were just embracing and hugging and crying. And I mean, Tom, it was outside of being seeing my kids born, the probably the most powerful moment of my entire life. And I I got to be a part of that just because I'm a fishing guide. And, yes, I helped facilitate some of those, you know, moments. But, I knew he was near the end of his life. I had no idea that we would row off, you know, and he would pass away the next morning, literally less than twelve hours after he got off my boat. You know? So that is the real thing that happened. Like, I literally said the same thing at this guy's funeral. And I don't know. It's because of this vivid memory I have, I can go and I can go back to that space.

Tom Rowland: So

Ryan Johnston: a lot of my guide buddies have been guiding long as as long as me for two decades, and they're like, I don't understand any of all these stories, but I think I just retain them more than the average guide does.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, you know, what's interesting here is that you just told this story that is so meaningful, and and and you're so grateful that you were such a part of this. And we we started this conversation talking about how expensive guiding is, how how difficult it is to make a living, how peep some people don't tip, how all of these different things that are challenging about guiding. But, honestly, fish aside, I mean, it's awesome to catch a catch a big fish or or something like that to but to have an experience like that and to facilitate an experience like that, that's really what guiding's all about. And and you know what? When you're talking about you're you have a theme in your in your videos of it takes about five years for you to to really become a guy. Right? You do it for about five years, and then, you know, then about year five or six or even seven, you're really hitting your stride. And you're starting to understand that it's it's about way more than catching fish, or at least it was for at least it is for for people like yourself, people like like me, I think, and and a whole whole host of others that take guiding to an art form. And sometimes it is about getting somebody that that is literally would never be able to catch this fish with anyone else. You just become you you you create this special bond where they trust you enough to to do what you're saying, and you you basically catch the fish for them with the boat. Right? That that happens all the time, and it's very, very rewarding when a when it can happen for a fishing guide. I mean, a a guy on the oars can back up and set the hook. Right? Like and and it would have never happened. But what's truly what's truly, like, why you end up doing it for a long time, I think, are stories like what you just told or stories of of a father and a son, you know, having this super special moment, and you just know you're just sitting over there making a sandwich, and you just know, like, this moment is gonna stay with those guys. I'm just gonna stay over here and keep my mouth shut and not say a word because I'm not messing up this moment. Like, this is a truly special moment that those two people are gonna remember for the rest of their life, and you're a part of it. Sometimes it's like a fly on the wall, and sometimes you're, like, really a part of it. But, wow, that's that's that's amazing. That's an amazing story, and I'd like to read your books. Where do you get your books?

Ryan Johnston: I will mail you two free copies.

Tom Rowland: Well, yeah. But but well, that's great, and I appreciate that. But where does somebody else? Like, we have a lot of people listening to this. Where do they where would they find your books?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. Go on Amazon. They're both there. First one's called A Real Job, and second one's called Really, r e e l y. Unbelievable Fly Fishing Guide Stories.

Tom Rowland: Great.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. Buy them on Amazon.

59:44 · Cast Hope: Fly Fishing for Underserved Kids

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Okay. And so the last thing that I wanted to talk to you about and actually what we what we kind of originally got hooked up for was Cast Hope. So tell me what that is.

Ryan Johnston: So Cast Hope's a fly fishing nonprofit that I started, in 2009. It's a really basic idea of using fly fishing as a vehicle to encourage underserved kids, kids who come from, you know, trauma based backgrounds, broken homes, addiction homes, and using fly fishing as a vehicle to get them into the outdoors and just create a positive space for them to not only connect with nature, but also to connect with healthy guides. And we have about 30 guides across our regions who, support us in that. So we're hiring guides and using professionals who are doing this for a living, to increase our retention. Our biggest thing that we believe is that fishing doesn't change a kid's life. We're just using the vehicle to create a mentorship space. And that if we can use guides, to give the highest possible experience, right, rather than a volunteer who may or may not know how to fish, volunteer who hasn't been on the flats or the river for months and isn't really keyed into what's happening before paying these guides to take these kids out. And the kid has the highest potential of having, and it's a great, incredible experience. And then the kid wants to come back and continue to participate with CAS Hope over years of time. So our hope is that a kid will come in at whatever age. We serve kids from 10 to 18, and say that kid comes at the age of 12. We hope our that kid will maintain and stay in our program all the way until he graduates high school. CASL started in Northern California. That's where I used to live. That's that's where we started it, and God's really blessed it. It now is in five regions. So we have a Northern California, Southern California, Reno, Nevada, Salmon, Idaho, and then we just launched Flathead Valley here in Montana this spring. So we're gonna have a thousand kids this year, Tom, go fly fishing, through our organization. And it's just it's really humbling to see where it's, you know, sixteen years later where we're actually at. And it's just there's a lot of people who have breathed life into it from, you know, employees to board members and, you know, donors who support us financially. And yeah, man, I, I'm still blown away of what Cast Hope has become. And I'm just honored that I am the one who had the inspiration and I'm the one that started it. And I'm the one who also continues to, to run Cast Hope as a executive director.

1:02:30 · The Moment That Inspired Cast Hope

Tom Rowland: That's awesome. So what what was the what was the motivation to to start it? Like, what where you're you're just sitting around. You're you're you're at the end of your season or something, or I don't know. What what kind of bug gets in your head and you say, you know what? I think we could do this. Like, how did that start?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. My, my wife and I, we met in college at UC Davis. We would date, get married after we graduated. She wanted to become a teacher, and so she had to go get a teaching credential. And so I decided I was already guiding full time. By this point, you know, I started guiding full time, like my last year of college. And, I decided, hey. If you're gonna go back to school, I should go back to school too. So we have a similar lifestyle. And I have this belief that every fly fishing guide is one thrown out back or one blown shoulder away from being bankrupt. So I should probably have I should probably have a backup plan. So I just started working on an MBA part time. I was guiding full time. I was guiding, like, six days a week, and then I was going to night classes working on an MBA. It took about two and a half years to do that. And so we moved to Chico. We went to Chico State. And when we were at Chico State, we started attending, a local church there. And our pastor was talking about using your personal gifts to change your local community. And he gave this really random example about a college student who was very gifted in mathematics. And so he would tutor other students for free just to encourage them and use something that he was give good with to share back. And so I walked out that Sunday, man, and I could not get this message out of my head. What was I personally doing for Chico? And so I decided, Hey, I'm gonna donate one trip a month, to just encourage kids who are struggling life, kids who are having a hard time. I always had a passion for youth growing up, and so I just did word-of-mouth. The first the first Castle trip I did I mean, technically, Castle was in existence, but the first donated trip I did was, a kid who was going through a divorce. His parents were separating and he was dealing with that separation of the family. Second month was a kid who was battling cancer and really, to be honest, fighting for his life. And fast forward six months, and I have this junior high kid come out with his uncle. And the junior high kid, sadly, his father passed away the year before. And so this uncle was stepping into this kid's life trying to be that male role model. Now, you can't ever replace the loss of a parent, but, you know, uncle's trying to step in and fill that gap as much as he can. I had him on the Sacramento River in the drift boat. Junior high kid's in front and uncle's behind me, and the kid caught his second fish. You know, we net it. We, you know, he's taking pictures and we're just experiencing this pure joy. And we let the fish go and the kid looks at his uncle and goes, this is the coolest thing I've ever done. I want to go buy a fly rod. I want this to become our thing. I call it a God moment. Some people call it a holy shit moment, whatever you believe. And I was like, wow, I have to figure out how to do this more than once a month. And all the steps were in place, Tom. Like, you know, I was doing an MBA part time. I had professors who were willing to help me create a business model. One of our dear kind of mentoring couples, you know, I really believe everyone needs this couple in their life. Someone who's fifteen, twenty years older than us. She was a nonprofit consultant. She met with me for free three or four times. She's like, just buy me dinner and we'll call it good. And so I had these three really smart, intelligent people help me build what CASELP could be. And so I finished my MBA. I took a month off, and then a month later, I was applying for a nonprofit status. And through those three people's help, we got approved right away, and that launched a simple vision of just using something that we were passionate about as guides to just share with kids having a hard time.

1:06:34 · How Serving Kids Made Him Softer

Tom Rowland: Wow. And what like, that that message that you received that day, it it really meant a lot to you. And then as you actually do what you were instructed to do or motivated to do or inspired to do, what has that done for your life, your personal life?

Ryan Johnston: It's made me a lot softer as an individual. I am so blessed that I was raised in a home where parents are still married, who parents still like each other, who are financially really stable. Like, they're not wealthy, but they had extra money to go on road trips during the summertime and, and show the world to me. And when you're working with disadvantaged populations, like I, I wasn't that kid and I didn't live in that house. And to see trauma based kids and kids that really struggle and have to go through lots of pain and get pulled away from parents and, you know, to keep them safe, that's really changed my heart. It's really softened my heart. It's given me, I think, a healthier view of what our world really is. We had a kid. We do a specialized program each year. We select four or five kids, and we take them on, like, a week long road trip through Northern California. And one of these spots we fish is for coastal cutthroat. It's this beautiful little stream that runs out actually onto the beach. So as you're fishing, you can hear the waves crashing behind you. It's a really cool environment. So So we fish for, like, four or five hours. Kids are catching a bunch of small coastal cutthroat, and then, you know, we let the kids go play on the beach, and we walk to the beach. We put our rods in their in our trucks, and, four of the kids are down there in the water splashing around having a great time. And one one kid named Obi is just sitting on the sand just looking, and it just caught me off guard, you know? And and I just went down and sat next to Obi, and I was like, man, isn't it beautiful? He's like, it's so big. And I and I I just pause, and I was, like, processing so big. Obi, have you never seen the ocean? He goes, no, man. Like, I've only seen pictures. This kid lived two and a half hours away from the ocean. I would find out he had never left his county. Like Wow. I got to travel. Not I wasn't hopping on planes as a kid. Like, I wasn't going to beach resorts, but, like, we drove to Jackson Hole. We drove to Glacier, you know, like and here's a kid who's two and a half hours away from the ocean, and he's seeing it for the first time. That just rocks you, Tom. Like, you can't have the same perspective after that. You know? So I am so grateful for that because I now bring that to my own children. You know what I mean? Like, as I parent

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Ryan Johnston: As an adult, like, this has really impacted me for the positive that I can be softer to I'm a girl dad. Right? I have two girls. You know, so caring for their hearts and loving them as best as I can. I've learned a lot from just dealing with these population of kids we work with Caso.

Tom Rowland: Wow. It's powerful, man. It's powerful. What would you say to somebody that that would be considering, doing something like that? Like, maybe it's in fishing, maybe it's not. Maybe it's something else. Using their personal talents, in their community. They're they're considering it. Maybe they've been given a similar message or or or maybe they're listening to this, and they're thinking, man, I could do that. I could tutor people. I could offer business advice. I could take people fishing. What would you say to somebody? What would be the reasons why someone should take action?

Ryan Johnston: I would say dive head into it. Make the space in your schedule. We all have busy lives. Like, you know, creating that time for something that's gonna benefit other people. Trust me, in the end, it's also gonna fill you up too. Make the space, make the time, even if it means switching your life around to create that space. And maybe it's only an hour a week. Like, it doesn't have to be a a full blown nonprofit. Right? I believe each individual in this world, we have the ability to help you. And that could literally be going across street to your neighbor and saying, hey, you're elderly. Let me take out your trash every week.

Tom Rowland: Right?

Ryan Johnston: I mean, what does it take you five minutes to walk across the road, ten minutes to move it to the road? You know what I mean? You're talking thirty minutes a week, you know? I just really believe we all have the ability to bless people and on small scales, medium scales, and you just don't know what it's gonna turn into.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Ryan Johnston: I don't know, man. I just I really believe people need to dive head first and start thinking about other people over ourselves, and that's hard to do. I I love thinking about myself. I love, you know, going fishing. You know? I being selfish feels good. Like, let's be honest. Right? Like but we also have the capacity to serve, and I really believe we're all called to that.

Tom Rowland: Man. Well, you've done a really great job with it. So Cast Hope, if people wanted to support Cast Hope, what would be the most effective way for somebody to support what you're doing?

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. You can just go to the website. It's casthope.org. We have all the information there. We have some awesome videos, kind of some of the stories that we're talking about, some really inspirational stuff. Check out the videos. That's gonna give you kind of the heart of the organization and what we're trying to do, and then you can donate online, castsoap.org.

1:12:14 · A Thousand Kids and 30 Guides This Summer

Tom Rowland: Man, that's wild, man. That's that's good for you. That's that's really, that's really that's really inspirational and motivational, to hear that story, and just what you've been able to create. So this summer, you're gonna have a thousand kids going out.

Ryan Johnston: A thousand kids over there?

Tom Rowland: Gonna be your biggest year ever?

Ryan Johnston: Is that your biggest year ever?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And so tell me what that just quickly what that looks like. How many fishing guides will be participating to to be able to take a thousand kids out?

Ryan Johnston: So we have about 30 guides who participate in the organization. This year we're going to be doing close to 300 guide trips, through those guides. And we also have an outdoor part of our program. So it's not all fishing. What we learned about five, six years into Cast Hope is that we had to create an avenue for the kids and get them to become really passionate about it. Right? Fishing is not for everyone. You know? So we had this little small group of kids, maybe 25% were like, yeah, that was really cool. I had a great time. I enjoyed that process, but not my thing. So we wanted to not lose those kids. So we started offering quarterly outdoor trips. So we take kids, you know, whitewater rafting, take them on hiking. We do in California, we do mushroom hunts. That's kind of interesting. The kids love the mushroom hunt. It's like kind of this treasure experience of walking around the woods.

Tom Rowland: Nice.

Ryan Johnston: And, and Tom, we all know that we now have, a world that's very screen addicted. Right? I mean, everybody's looking at their phones and it's transferring to our kids. And we're just trying to also create an avenue to show them that the outdoors is a cool place to be. And it's the outdoors is just as cool as whatever gaming system, their phone, you know, computer, whatever. Because we do need another generation to champion our outdoor spaces. You know, we we are doing that actively, but if we don't share the outdoors and show how cool it can be, then I really believe our our world's in trouble in the next fifty to seventy years.

Tom Rowland: I agree with you. I agree with you. And, you're taking a big step in that direction to, to try to try to do something about it and get people outdoors, young people outdoors. So good for you, man. I've really enjoyed this, Ryan. I appreciate you coming on at short notice and, and, it's gonna be a quick turnaround on the podcast, so it'll be out tomorrow. But I really hope that, that we can, you know, educate people about what you're doing and, and bring some people in to, to to help. Donate whether that's donating their time or their money or or just positive thoughts, you know, like, I think what you're doing is really cool. And, and I think, you know, kudos to you for for taking the extra step. A lot of people think about things like I should I should do something like that. It's a it's a lot different to actually do it and devote your time to it and then be dedicated to it and then make it last for what you said sixteen years?

Ryan Johnston: Yep. Yeah.

1:15:19 · Full Circle: A Cast Hope Kid Becomes a South Fork Guide

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Good for you, man. Good for you. Yeah. That's awesome. And good for the kids that it's that it's benefiting. So there was one other story that you said. You said you had a kid that came into your program and ended up guiding on the South Fork Of The Snake River. Tell tell me how that happened.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. He, he's a very successful guide now. Cast Hope, over sixteen years, we now have six kids who have become fly fishing guides, and this is their full time professional. That's not that's not the goal of what CASLOB is, but every once in a while, you find this kid is ultra passionate, and you just keep feeding the the fire. Right? And keep that passion going. This one kid that was named as Harry. And, Harry got into our program because he made some dumb decisions in high school. He started selling weed to his buddies and he got caught. And so, he got kicked out of the school and he actually comes from a really solid family. He just Harry made some dumb decisions. And so his parents had some great foresight and they said, hey, we're not gonna just switch you to this school ten minutes away. We're gonna make you drive forty minutes and we're gonna change your social circle. And that rocked Terry's life because he had this core group of friends that weren't influencing him in the best way, and then his parents forced him to go to a whole another town to go to school. And that's really when Castle came into his life, and I personally started mentoring Harry. And Harry became obsessed about fly fishing. Like, it became his thing. And next thing you know, he was fishing all the time on the weekends. Like, we bought him rods. We bought him all the gear, and he was doing it on his own. As he got later into high school, he said, hey. I I don't think I'm going to college. It's not I'm not really the education kid. Will you teach me how to row a drift boat? Because I think I wanna become a guide. I said, yes, but this means if you truly wanna go down this avenue, like, I'm no longer taking you fishing. Like, this means I'll facilitate a day and I'll bring all the stuff, but that means if you really wanna learn how to guide, that means you're rowing the whole time. And then I will coach you and share my expertise with you as we do it. And so we did that for a year and a half. And as his graduation gift, his family put a bunch of money together, and they bought a beater drift boat, a boat that was, like, 25 years old. And, you know, next thing he knows, I had called the outfitter on the South Fork that I've been working with. He's getting ready. You know, he he's already gone through six months of rowing on his own, and the manager at the lodge I worked for, I said, hey, you need to hire Harry. And there was a lot of pushback. He's like, dude, we deal with millionaires. Like, you know, we're a super high end Orvis Lodge. Like, I can't take a caslib kid and put them in a boat with someone who's, you know, working, owning a huge business. And I was like, I know, but you gotta trust me. I was friends with him. I'd worked with him. I was like, this kid is different. Like this is he's really special. And so on my word, the lodge hired him. And so next thing you know, Harry's off, to guide the South Fork. And I told the manager of the lodge, if you do hire him, I will commit to coming out for three days, and I'll I'll teach Harry how to row section two, three, and four, you know, so canyon down. And he's like, wait, you're gonna come out just for that? I was like, well, that's how much I believe in this kid. So he got hired. I went out May. We went and fished the river. I gave him kind of a, you know, quick rundown of what I knew. And, you know, fast forward just a couple months, I get a call from the manager in late July and he's like, Harry is crushing it. I've never had a first year guide who already has requested dates for August. And, like, everybody loves the experience with him. And thank you so much for pushing me out of my comfort zone and what I thought was best. So Harry is going back for his sixth season, just next month. And the other cool part, Tom, is when I decided to leave California, you know, we talked about I had, you know, some really core clients. I handed those clients off to Harry and Harry slowly paid me a commission to have those guys. But now about 80% of those guys I used to fish with, they all fish with Harry. So they were there when I was starting Cast Hope. They're they are still generous donors to the organization, and now they have a cast of kid who's guiding them, you know, fifteen, twenty times a year. So Wow. You can't write

Tom Rowland: this stuff. Full circle, man.

Ryan Johnston: Yeah. I mean, it's

Tom Rowland: That's awesome. That should be a that should be a story in your book.

Ryan Johnston: It's going to be in the fourth book.

Tom Rowland: Some part of that. Yeah. Some part of that should be a story. Alright, man. That is, that's amazing. That's a really great story. And, good for you. I love what you're doing. And if I can support you in any way, please let me know, and I will definitely help you out. Love what you're doing. And maybe we can, maybe we can hook up in Star Valley and, go float the salt, one one of these days. That would be, that would be amazing. I haven't been on that river in so long. And I'll tell you about my first trip where I was going to Hoback Junction, and I was like, the Salt River, the Green River. Which way is it? That's how green I was when I took my first trip. And I I was like, oh, at the last second, like like, a dumb and dumber moment of the last second, I think it's this way. And I made it to the salt unbelievably. I could've I could've easily ended up at the Grain. But that yeah. Let's go fishing there sometime. Alright, Ryan. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it, and, we'll, we'll get this out right away and and let you know how you can share it also.

Ryan Johnston: Awesome. And you guys stuff.

Tom Rowland: You're so welcome.

Ryan Johnston: Very cool.

1:21:16 · Where to Find Ryan and Support Cast Hope

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You're so welcome. If you guys like this show, please share it with your friends, and and then go and, look up. I wrote all the stuff down here. Go to casthope.org. Ryan's, Instagram is r j r j s fly trips. So r j's fly trips. That's his Instagram. Cast hope also has an Instagram, and casthope.org is where you go to support the organization or learn more. So definitely sounds like a great organization to learn more about and support if you so choose. That'd be awesome. Alright, Ryan. Thanks so much, and we will be back next week with another awesome guest just like Ryan. Alright. See you.