Shyanne Orvis: From Foster Homes to Fly Fishing Guide

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 339, Shyanne Orvis...

Shyanne Orvis: You know, I think growth comes from uncomfortable situations, and I am grateful for whatever it was that I had in me as a little girl that always allowed me to just keep pushing. My life would be drastically different had I not moved to Colorado. I'm Shyanne Orvis, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.

Guiding the Roaring Fork and the Frying Pan

Tom Rowland: Shyanne, how are you?

Shyanne Orvis: I am well, thank you. Busy in my guide season, but managing, pushing through.

Tom Rowland: Right on. So Carbondale, that's where you're based?

Shyanne Orvis: Yeah, absolutely.

Tom Rowland: And that's right outside of Aspen. So what are your main bodies of water that you're fishing out there?

Shyanne Orvis: Primarily the Roaring Fork River, the Frying Pan River, and then the Colorado River as well.

Tom Rowland: I've fished the Frying Pan before, and we waded it. Are you wading some trips and floating some trips? How does your operation work?

Shyanne Orvis: As of right now, this is my fourth year guiding, and it's primarily wade trips. I'm trying to transition over to float trips, so this is going to be my first year being a float guide. I think I've got to sign off on twenty more hours on the boat, and then I can take my first float trip. Nervous, but I'm excited.

Tom Rowland: I've been seeing that on your Instagram, that you're in the raft. Who dictates the requirements there? Is that the state of Colorado?

Shyanne Orvis: Yep. They've got a certain amount of hours that you have to meet, and they have to be signed off by someone who's licensed to sign those hours. So it has to be an instructor, or someone who's been guiding for well over ten years.

Tom Rowland: Interesting, because each state has differences. I was a guide in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana, and each of those states was so different from one another. In Wyoming, basically, I don't think you even had to be an outfitter or a guide — you could just do whatever. But there were differences in the water — they own the streambed in Wyoming. Then you go to Montana, and it's the high-water mark, but you have to be an outfitter. And then in Idaho, there was kind of a mixture of those two things, but a transferable permit for each river. So what is it like in Colorado? As an outfitter or a guide, do you have to have a guide license or an outfitter license? What's the regulation?

Shyanne Orvis: The regulation is you have to go through an outfitter, or you can obtain your own license as an independent guide, but then you have to have permits for specific stretches of river. I'd have to permit for the Roaring Fork and the Frying Pan, and there's a very limited number of permits given out. I think you actually can't obtain a new permit for the Frying Pan anymore, so if I wanted to be an independent guide, I wouldn't be able to guide that river, or a certain stretch of it. It goes by the river, and you have to have a specific permit for it.

Tom Rowland: Kind of like Idaho. So how did guiding start for you?

Shyanne Orvis: I didn't anticipate going straight into guiding. I just knew that I loved fishing, and I saw, actually, in the paper, that there was a job position available at a fly shop. I thought, this sounds great, I could surround myself with more people within the industry, learn from them, be a sponge, and become the best angler I could be. Then, about two months into my first summer in the fly shop, all of the guides there were like, why aren't you guiding? You should be on the river, you are ready. And they ended up just kind of pushing me right into it. I didn't anticipate moving that quickly into guiding, but I'm grateful — even if I didn't feel like I was ready, it was the best decision I ever made.

How Guiding Found Her

Tom Rowland: It seems like it really suits you well. I follow your Instagram and check out your posts, and that's a very inspirational — that's a big part of what you put out there. You have a mission statement, and I find that kind of interesting, because a lot of people aren't clear about their mission or even who they are as a person. How did you determine your mission statement, and what process did you go through? Because if you ask somebody what they're all about, a lot of people say, well, I don't know. But you seem very clear about everything you're putting out.

Shyanne Orvis: That's a great question, it caught me off guard. I think what it comes down to is I don't even know if I was aware that I had a mission statement. I think, first and foremost, I just knew what I wanted as a young angler, or a female within the sport, and I didn't feel like it was there. So it was important for me, if I was going to be someone putting out fish photos or content, or being an —

Tom Rowland: Like an influencer.

Shyanne Orvis: Yeah, an influencer in that realm — that it was going to be inspirational, impactful, supportive, and encouraging. Because I just didn't feel like, when I was 17 getting into guiding and being in the fly shop, that anybody was there to help each other. I felt like that was what I wanted to feel, and hopefully I can help other people who are going through something similar, who have a similar journey.

Tom Rowland: What did you see that was out there? If you didn't see that, what did you see?

Shyanne Orvis: I'm going to be brutally honest. I felt like it was very competitive and very ego-driven, and it wasn't supportive. It wasn't, hey, I support your success, your success doesn't take away from my success. It was more like there's only room for one person as a guide, or in fishing, and I think there's room for all of us. I also felt like, moving into guiding, I'm in an area with a lot of fly fishing guides, and everyone I was surrounded by was very much like, oh, we caught this many fish on the river today, how many did you catch? It became this competition in a way. And I was like, man, I love this sport, but I don't feel like that's necessary. I think there's room for all of us — you can fish and I can fish, and it doesn't mean someone has to be better than the other. That's kind of what I was surrounded by, and that might just be the environment I'm in. But I was hoping to be different in that way, and show other people that it doesn't have to be like that.

Building a Guiding Style Rooted in Gratitude, Not Competition

Tom Rowland: So you're doing that, being different, obviously through your social media and your posts. But how do you do it in a personal way, when you're dealing with your customers?

Shyanne Orvis: I think it's providing an experience. I saw everything I didn't want to be as a guide, and instead of putting so much pressure on the fish and giving clients the expectation of, okay, we're going to put 40 fish in the net today, it's more like — look at where we are, we should be grateful for this environment and how beautiful it is. Forget about your nine-to-five office job and be appreciative of this time we're on the river, and this is why I fly fish, let me share that with you. We're also going to catch fish, but you're also going to appreciate the sport, and you're going to appreciate the fishery. It's that overall experience — having a good time and a greater overall understanding of fly fishing — it's not just about the fish.

Tom Rowland: And that plays really well with some people, though you do have the competitive sort. When you're getting clients, are you booking your own, or are you showing up at the fly shop not knowing who's going to be there?

Shyanne Orvis: I feel like I'm in a really fortunate position. I actually work for a private membership club, so most of my clientele now are repeat clients — I've had them for four years. I very rarely have a trip anymore where I don't know someone, and if I do, I likely know their friends. So it feels fortunate in that sense. Most of the people I get to take fishing are such incredible people — they're living in the valley, or have a home here. I don't actually fish with a lot of people who have that ego, and if they do, I address it right away. That's just not my guiding style, and if that's what you're looking for, that's not going to be me.

Tom Rowland: It seems like every guide — somebody told me, my friend Simon Becker — you'd look at someone who had a habit of yelling at their customers, you could hear them from hundreds of yards away, and you'd wonder how that guy gets any business. And my friend Simon said, there's a guide for every clientele, and there's a clientele for every guide. I guess some people like it — they want their guide to razz them, have that hard-ass attitude — and I guess some people like that, because the guy stayed busy for forty years, he had a clientele, and they apparently liked getting yelled at. But then there are others who absolutely don't like that. I kind of feel like if you stick with it long enough, you draw to you the anglers who appreciate your guiding style, and it seems to be happening for you like that — you're drawing people who appreciate that pace and what you're offering.

Shyanne Orvis: I've never thought about that, but it is very much like what you put out is what you get back. Even the clientele I've accumulated from Instagram — I think they see what I put out, and it isn't just grip-and-grin or competitiveness, it's hopefully more like positivity or inspiration, and that's maybe why they want to go fish with me. It's very much what you put out is what you get. I like that a lot.

Tom Rowland: Life's a mirror — that's what another wise friend of mine says. Whatever you put out is what you get back, and I find that to be very true myself. You can catch yourself putting out stuff you're not all that proud of or happy with, and that's what comes back to you as well.

Ladies on the Fly, Waiters and Wine, and Fish for Change

Tom Rowland: I'm looking at a lot of the stuff on your website, and it seems like you're involved in a lot of different organizations, very much in line with your mission. I saw Ladies on the Fly, Fish for Change, United Women on the Fly. Tell me about some of those organizations and the idea behind them.

Shyanne Orvis: A lot of them embody building a community around female anglers. Ladies on the Fly and Waiters and Wine are both clinics that I do — they're not organizations per se, but monthly or yearly events I try to host. Those create comfortable learning environments for women who want to get into the sport but might feel intimidated or uncomfortable. Walking into a fly shop can be scary for a woman when there are eight guys behind the desk, and you don't want to ask what flies you're supposed to use because they're looking at you like maybe you should already know. These events have been encouraging, and it's awesome to see there are a lot more of them now, all across the state — it's cool to be part of that movement. There's also an organization I'm part of called Fish for Change, an international student program. There are a couple of different locations — Honduras primarily, Colorado now, and Mexico and a few others. Essentially it's like a week-long sleepaway camp for kids, a fishing program, but it's more than just fishing. It's immersing them in the community, giving back, teaching them about conservation, and doing local initiatives like eradicating invasive species such as lionfish, and partnering with Costa on the Kick Plastic campaign — hopefully building them up so they're confident anglers, but also more informed and well-rounded.

Tom Rowland: What ages, or what's the top age that goes to?

Shyanne Orvis: We've got different programs — all girls, or adults — but it ranges from 13 to 23. Kind of all across the board.

Why Fly Fishing Still Has So Few Women

Tom Rowland: In the women's programs you're doing, I'm interested — like you said, it's obviously intimidating sometimes to walk into a fly shop. Let me give you a little background. When I started guiding, after my first year, I had Lori-Ann Murphy start guiding with us. Christy Ball started guiding with us. Kim Keeley started guiding with us — so we had three or four female guides right away, and I saw all of this play out, and they were great guides, great anglers. The people who would come on my boat — there'd be a couple, the guy wouldn't really listen, the lady would listen very well, and she would almost always outfish the guy. She might still believe she was a complete rookie by the end of the trip, but she was already better than her husband, because she listened — she didn't have any bad habits, she just got it. A fly rod seems to be perfect for a female — they can handle it great, they understand what's going on much faster, while the guys are all muscling things and trying to wrestle with it. I always found that women took to the sport of fishing very easily once they were there, and that also translated into saltwater — women were good saltwater anglers too, especially with fly fishing. So it would seem like there'd be a lot more women in the sport. There's the obvious challenge of walking into a fly shop with ten guys drinking coffee, looking at the one girl who walks in. But what are some of the other challenges that keep women from even opening the door of the fly shop — things that maybe we're not even seeing because nobody's talking about them?

Shyanne Orvis: That's a great question. I'd say, first and foremost, it's still just uncomfortable — it's the lack of support. Women can often be really encouraging toward each other, but when you're walking into a fly shop — that initial barrier, because that's where your journey starts, you've got to get the gear — your first interaction is going to be with men who might not necessarily be supportive. They might be now, but a couple of years ago, maybe not so much. We're seeing growth in women in the sport because we're bringing awareness to women in fly fishing, but it's the barrier of having an uncomfortable situation, or not feeling supported or encouraged. And, ultimately, I think you've got to be kind of a little bit of a tomboy to be in fly fishing — it depends on the female who wants to fish, is she kind of rugged, is she going to be out on the river? So I don't think we're going to see this super drastic growth, because there aren't a lot of women who — it's like you're either a Kim Kardashian type or you're not, if that makes sense.

Tom Rowland: She loves to fish, she saw it on her Instagram.

Shyanne Orvis: Oh gosh. But I don't know if that makes sense — I'd say that's one factor as well. That's an awesome question, I don't know.

Tom Rowland: What happens at your get-togethers? Do people bring a new person in, and at some point they've got to kind of open up to you — like, I would have never come to this if she hadn't brought me, or if I hadn't heard this was an all-ladies group. And then out come some of the things she was afraid of — I'd be afraid to book a trip, or afraid to go with a guide all day by myself, but I don't know anyone else who wants to share a boat with me. I'd imagine a lot of those kinds of things come out at those events.

Shyanne Orvis: Yeah, I think it does. In a lot of ways, we're in an era where women are embracing this independence — women want to try new things, new sports and hobbies they might not have otherwise. So when we're having these discussions, now you have a women's event, and it's automatically socializing, not maybe just fishing — it's having wine with other people. That's how I market my events, Waiters and Wine — it's wine, you're not wearing waders, you're fishing on ponds. I think it's enticing them to fly fishing, but it's also building it around the socialization. And it's not so much rough and rugged, because you can have a fly fishing experience on the Frying Pan River that isn't so intense and wild, which isn't the experience everybody is looking for. I think they're just now realizing there are all these aspects that fly fishing embodies, and it's not just this hardcore, extreme thing — which some of us like, and some people don't.

Tom Rowland: Well, it can be, but it can also be pretty easy — you just sit in a boat and somebody rows you down the river all day. My wife likes to fish, but she also likes to sit there and read a book, or watch the river go by. Sometimes I do too — it's pretty sweet to sit in the back of the boat and not do anything, especially if you've been rowing all summer, then you just kind of relax. I find the river to be incredibly relaxing. You've obviously done a lot of work there with the women, and I'm sure that's going to continue, because you're definitely super committed to it, and that's super cool.

From Seven Foster Homes to a One-Way Ticket to Aspen

Tom Rowland: Let's back up a little bit, because in a lot of your posts, and on your Instagram, you talk about your childhood and how you got to Colorado. Wondering if you'd walk us through that.

Shyanne Orvis: Yeah, I'll just start from the beginning. I had kind of a difficult childhood, and I moved around a lot as a little girl. When I was 12, I actually went through foster care. I moved around from the ages of 12 to 17, and lived in probably seven different homes. Periodically through that, fly fishing was kind of like this saving grace for me, but I didn't really get into it —

Tom Rowland: Tell me how that fit in there, because it doesn't seem like fly fishing and foster homes would necessarily go together. How did that work? Were some of the foster homes fly fishermen?

Shyanne Orvis: I'll start from the very beginning. My grandfather actually taught me fly fishing when I was a little girl — fishing is huge in my family, fly fishing and conventional. Both my parents were avid anglers themselves, it's just my immediate parents who weren't fit to be parents. So I dabbled with it as a little girl, so I knew what fly fishing was. When I was 12, and I ended up moving around, I had a friend in different schools who fly fished. If you fly fish, then you hear somebody else talking about fishing, and you pick up on other people's passions. I've always been very outgoing and invited myself to things — I'd say, oh, so you fly fish? I've fly fished before, do you want to go? So I would go if I had the opportunity, or if I connected with someone who did. Then, as I got older, when I was 17, I just knew I didn't want to live in that environment, and I was able to move out and go my own direction. I was living with my sister at the time, and she was super adamant about me going to college, and I just wasn't ready yet. So I ended up buying a one-way ticket to Aspen, Colorado of all places, going from Flint, Michigan to Aspen. It was quite a culture shock.

Tom Rowland: Wow. How did you pick Aspen, of all places?

Shyanne Orvis: I actually didn't know what I was getting myself into. I had overheard someone whose brother was a lift operator in Snowmass, just outside Aspen, and in my head it was an escape. I didn't know anything about where I was going — I just thought, okay, well, there's this job opportunity in Snowmass I could apply for. I found the job, applied for it, and got a callback a week later.

Tom Rowland: You got it?

Shyanne Orvis: No — as a lift operator.

Tom Rowland: But you got the job you heard about?

Shyanne Orvis: Yeah, I just applied for it.

Tom Rowland: You totally manifested that all the way from Flint, Michigan. Don't you think? The one job you heard about, and you book a ticket to that one place and apply for that one job and get it — that's amazing.

Shyanne Orvis: I mean, it was a $12-an-hour job.

Tom Rowland: It doesn't matter, that's amazing. I hear about kids today who have all this opportunity to go to all these different places, and they just don't. I find it really cool that that was your one shot — what would have happened if you didn't get that job?

Shyanne Orvis: I ask that — I think about that every day. But I was always a dreamer, and I remember sitting with some of the people I lived with — everybody I lived with was like, you know, you're too much of a dreamer, that's not realistic, you're never going to live that life. And I'd think, I love being outside, I like playing, I know there's more to life than this. That's all I knew. So when I heard about this, I thought, well, why not, why wouldn't I try to apply for this and figure it out? I think growth comes from uncomfortable situations, and I'm grateful for whatever it was that I had in me as a little girl that always allowed me to just keep pushing, because my life would be drastically different had I not moved to Colorado.

Tom Rowland: So you get this job, and you're 17 — do you have any place to live?

Shyanne Orvis: When I heard about it, I also knew he lived in employee housing, and when I thought about it, I thought it was in the middle of nowhere — it was in the woods, and there was, like, one lift. I don't know why I didn't know anything else. I was going to live off ramen noodles and barely afford to pay bills. All I knew was I was going to do it, and I was going to figure it out — and if it failed, it failed, no harm, you just go back home, or figure something else out. I think I just didn't have fear in that sense — it wasn't scary to me until I was on the plane, and then I thought, oh shit, this is real. Then I cried, and thought, am I sure about this? Maybe everyone was right, and I am a little bit of a dreamer, and I probably should have thought this through, but I'm glad that I didn't.

Tom Rowland: So you get out there, you get this job, it comes with a place to live — how long until you look around and think, I am doing this, I'm doing exactly what I said I was going to do?

Shyanne Orvis: Not long after — and being the dreamer that I am, I only lasted at that job for maybe two months. I looked around and thought, okay, well, I'm not going to eat ramen noodles, I know I'm worth more than $12 an hour, so what's next? So I found other opportunities — engineering at a hotel. Everything I've always done has just been hands-on — I was a lift operator, then engineering, then I think babysitting or something, and then I transitioned straight into a fly shop. Everything I do, I give a hundred percent. As soon as I moved there, this whole world expanded — I could snowboard, I could skateboard, I could fish. For a while I obviously didn't have any money, so it was just getting whatever was handed to you, or whatever you could get. My first year of guiding, I used our rental shop rod because I couldn't afford rods, and my first pair of waders were donated. Now I look back and think, okay, well, you pushed through with all these random free things, and you can make it happen — it's just how badly do you want to work for it, how bad do you want it?

Fear, Manifestation, and Turning 17 into a New Life

Tom Rowland: I love that. How does that play into your life now — as you set goals, create this mission statement, and you're doing hosted trips and growing your business — how does fear play into your life now, coming from the story you just told me?

Shyanne Orvis: I don't know how to answer that — I think we're all fearful. There's always going to be things that are intimidating or nerve-wracking. I'd like to transition over to salt — not necessarily guide, but become a better saltwater angler, so I'd like to move to Florida. That's scary to me. But I also know we only have one life to live, and if I don't reach for the things I want to do, because they make me happy, because I'm scared of what other people might think, or all these other factors that hold us back from living the life we want to live — ultimately, I don't want to waste any time. I just want to be happy, and inspire other people to follow their dreams, to embrace it and overcome fear, because I think that's what's stopping a lot of people from just living a life of purpose and passion.

Tom Rowland: There's no doubt about it — it results in paralysis, where people want to do something, get scared, and just don't do it. They just think about it all the time instead of doing it. I love that story, that's really cool. I always think that unless you're kind of scared of something, you're too comfortable — if you set a goal and it doesn't really scare you, it's probably not a big enough goal. That's what I think, and what's become clear for me. It's a really uncomfortable feeling, but it's also like this warm friend that you have — okay, I've got a goal, I'm going to make this goal happen, and I'm terrified. I love that story, because I believe you can manifest things with your mind, you can create your own reality with your mind, and that story is exactly that — you heard about this job, and you went and did it with no resources whatsoever. You totally did that with your mind — I mean, you had to actually get on the plane and do it, but that's super cool. I hope you know that.

Tom Rowland: So as it applies to your life now, do you have some other goals besides the ones you just said? What are your short-term goals right now — not the moving to Florida, that seems a little longer down the path — but as far as growing your business, are you happy with that, or do you have other goals where you're trying to go?

Shyanne Orvis: Someone asked me that the other day — what's your long-term goal for five years? And I thought, man, maybe I should have some. But every opportunity that's come my way has always been something I never predicted, and I don't want to close any doors, because I don't know what direction my life is going to go in, or my journey. But I know my values, and the impact I want to make, and the difference in who I am as a person, and my story. As for tangible goals, I don't really have any, and I don't think I really want any — I think I just want to live a life of happiness and love and kindness, and whatever comes my way. I'm grateful for that opportunity, but I don't want to get so lost in what's to come that I forget about being grateful for this moment now.

Tom Rowland: That's good — you can get too caught up in the past, too caught up in the future, and not enjoy the present. It sounds like you're a very grateful person, and it shows through in a lot of what you're putting out there, but also in what you're saying. If you really want to inspire people to the highest degree, you should make something happen that is completely unlikely — like what you did when you were 17, you got out there, and all of a sudden you're living in Colorado, doing this thing that people told you that you couldn't do, or probably weren't going to be successful doing. From here, I think you should set your sights somewhere where you can really inspire people by doing something that seems impossible.

Turning 24: Goals, Gratitude, and Staying Open

Shyanne Orvis: I love that. I think the hard thing is I'm still so young, and I think I've just come into this period of learning who I am and loving myself. It's really just this past year where I finally feel this breath of fresh air — I'm not trying to figure things out, I'm not broke, I'm not hungry. I'm just kind of playing catch-up in that regard, and being grateful for now. Now it's, how can I have more of an impact on the things that are important to me? Ultimately, I think that would go in the direction of foster children — how can I get children involved in the sport who don't have the means? That's where I think there's a lot of excitement, that's part of my purpose. But it's going to take a little more time for me to figure out how to integrate that into my life, and how to create that reality. I do know it will happen, and it kind of goes along with your manifestation idea — I can feel that. I know at some point in my life, maybe a year from now, the idea is going to come to my head, and I'm going to know, this is it, this is what I should do. But we'll see.

Tom Rowland: So how old are you?

Shyanne Orvis: I'm 24.

Tom Rowland: 24? Wow, you do have a lot of time left to do whatever you want to do, that's awesome. I was thinking that you really remind me of Lori-Ann Murphy — but she was probably older than 24 when I was guiding with her. Do you know her?

Shyanne Orvis: I do, yeah, personally.

Tom Rowland: Have you ever gone down to fish with her? Where is she these days?

Shyanne Orvis: I don't know where her home base is.

Tom Rowland: She's got a saltwater gig going somewhere — Belize, maybe. I'm sorry, Lori-Ann, I forgot where you live. But you should go — I ran into her at ICAST a couple of years ago, and it was great catching up with her. She knew exactly who she was, and it's one of the things I most respected about her — she wasn't putting on any fronts for anybody. She knew exactly what she was there for, and she did it. You remind me of her a lot.

Shyanne Orvis: Oh, thank you, I appreciate it.

Tom Rowland: Tell me about the hosted trips that you do.

Hosted Trips, Ascension Bay, and Building Community Over Luxury

Shyanne Orvis: My focus right now is female hosted trips, and I've expanded to coed hosted trips — I haven't done one yet, it was supposed to be in May, but COVID postponed that, so it's going to be in October. I'm new to the hosted trip world, but I've partnered with Ascension Bay Lodge, and that's where I was doing my trips to Mexico for a week. My reasoning was — for that younger generation, having it be cost-efficient and something someone could come and experience, being more involved, stepping away from the luxury aspect toward more of a community-immersion aspect, and also making it affordable. So if someone wants that opportunity, it's obtainable, not outrageous.

Tom Rowland: Some of the other things I see on your Instagram, like Dorado and some of the other trips — how are you doing those? I assumed those were hosted trips, and that's where you're getting all that content and catching all those fish, but maybe there's another part of your story I don't know — how are you going to all these other places?

Shyanne Orvis: Those are content missions, scouting them out for hosted trips. I proposed that idea to lodges in Argentina and Patagonia. The unique niche I'm tapping into is my social media audience, which I think is a lot of people in my age range who might not have the money to travel to places like that. So it's having those hosted trips be affordable. But Argentina and Patagonia will also be my clients, because they can't afford something like that — I want to integrate clients who have these same values as me, and we have such incredible conversations, and they want to be more involved in the community they're visiting, not just have this luxury experience. I think it's about creating a different and unique experience. I haven't done it yet, but that's my focus with those trips, and they'll take place next year.

Tom Rowland: Explain the difference between what you're calling a community experience and a luxury experience.

Shyanne Orvis: With the luxury aspect, it's leaving the lodge — I think that's where a lot of people feel comfortable. They stay at the lodge, and that's all they do, interacting with the people they came on the trip with. I think it's leaving the lodge and doing something different — maybe volunteering, or being involved with a local conservation organization. It might not be as appealing, but I've got a lot of clients — very wealthy people who can afford to do whatever they want — who say, I want to do something that's more purposeful. So that's hopefully what those experiences will offer, and I'm still dialing in those details.

Tom Rowland: Maybe there's an opportunity for you to tie in the children and the foster issues there. I remember when we went to Christmas Island, one of the things we did was go to the orphanage there and check it out. There are a ton of rich people who are empty inside and want to do something meaningful in their life — they like to fish, they like to go to these places, but literally, money can't buy you fulfillment in a lot of cases. Something like what you're proposing, you might just have them standing in line if you create the right program.

Shyanne Orvis: I think you're onto something there — I don't know why I didn't think of tying the two together, but that's a great idea.

Tom Rowland: Well, you take it and run with it. So, of all the places you've been, which ones stick with you as real special places you'd maybe like to return to, or do a hosted trip? Have you had some surprises — places you didn't think you'd like so much, and they were better than you thought?

Guanaja, Honduras and the Roots of Fish for Change

Shyanne Orvis: I'm also just such a grateful person, so I love every place I've gone to, and I'm grateful for that opportunity, because I've never traveled much in my life, so I don't have a lot to compare it to. However, I'd say Guanaja, Honduras, where the Fish for Change program is located, was the most impactful experience I've had, both for myself as a young female angler and for the community itself. It was hands-on within the community — creating friendships and lifelong relationships with people who live on that island. That's a unique thing I haven't really seen through the rest of my experiences, and something I want to start integrating more, because I've realized how important it is. Honduras was a really special place for me.

Tom Rowland: I went to Honduras one time — we went to Roatan, and there was some great fishing there, on these little strip coral reefs where the sand would build up behind them, and there were permit and bonefish all along those things. There were mountains, it was a beautiful place, but there was some significant poverty there. Where I went to meet the guide was shocking, really — we were at this dive resort, and I wanted to go fishing, so I set up this fishing trip, and we had to drive thirty miles. My family drove me, going to drop me off and come back and pick me up. We pulled into this place, and the poverty was shocking — I wasn't expecting it, because we hadn't seen it anywhere else on the island. We went over a hill and down into this little town, and it was really rough — they'd had a couple of hurricanes go through there too, and I thought about those people. Is that kind of what you saw in Honduras that was so important to you?

Shyanne Orvis: That exact same thing. I spent the majority of my time in Guanaja, but it's exactly what you're saying — Hurricane Mitch wiped out basically everything on that island. Seeing this community come together and rebuild, and collectively try to rebuild their island, is heartbreaking and it's inspiring in a lot of ways. It's like, how can we get back and get involved? I think that's essentially what Fish for Change does, which is why it's become so important for me to be more involved with that organization.

Tom Rowland: And that started there? Fish for Change started right there in Guanaja?

Shyanne Orvis: Yep. Steve Brown founded Fly Fish Guanaja, and then they formed Fish for Change within that.

Tom Rowland: From there, it's grown into a worldwide organization?

Shyanne Orvis: It's still relatively small, but my best friend, Heather Harkabee, I think is the director of the organization, and she's just a powerhouse. She's got a lot of vision, and she's been able to create programs in Costa Rica, the Bahamas, Mexico, and now Colorado too — we're working on that one. It's been an exciting project, and there's more to come.

Tom Rowland: Sounds cool. So what else gets you excited about life right now?

Shyanne Orvis: Fishing — the opportunity to fish for myself. It's going to be great when I get to hold a rod one of these days.

Tom Rowland: That is the delicate balance of being a fishing guide, particularly being a good one — your days of fishing are limited, or numbered, or nonexistent, because your time is better spent with paying customers. Sounds like you haven't had a chance to fish all summer?

Shyanne Orvis: I do, but not as much as I'd like to. Truthfully, saltwater is what I crave right now — I'm being a brat, but I was in the Florida Keys a couple of times recently.

Chasing Saltwater: Key West, Brandon Cyr, and Paying Her Dues

Tom Rowland: That's what leads to the mutual connection that got us this conversation — Brandon Cyr, that's how I learned about you, and you caught a really awesome tarpon. I saw it, and I was talking to Brandon, and asked, what do you think about Shyanne, would she be a good guest? He said, yeah, man, absolutely, and told me a little bit about you. What did you think about the Keys?

Shyanne Orvis: I'm in love. I'm hoping to move to Key West through the winter season, hoping a specific opportunity works out, and then I'll be able to move there for a couple months and work there. I'm well aware I have no expectations of fishing while I'm there, but I really just want to learn — being in that environment, being around Brandon, and Kat and Nat with the Angling Company, I've never felt so supported and believed in. Brandon especially is such a big supporter — he tells me to go follow my dream, excuse my language, follow your dreams, come out here, come fish, learn this fishery, you're doing awesome things. It's very rare to hear that from men or women who want to see you grow and succeed as an angler, and that's really what I want to do — I want to be the best angler I can be.

Tom Rowland: Maybe you just need to surround yourself with different people — it seems like everybody needs a cheerleader like Brandon. It seems like moving to Key West and working there, you'll get out fishing, you'll fish a bunch.

Shyanne Orvis: I don't want that expectation. I want to go into it with the learning expectation, knowing just to be a sponge. I think the most important thing I see with people who want to be guides, or who go to new places, is being humble enough to wait, to pay your dues, and to learn and respect the people who have been in those fisheries. I think you did something similar — you moved to the Keys and waited a year before you guided.

Tom Rowland: That's exactly right, you did your homework. I did wait a year, and I worked at Jeffrey Cardenas's Saltwater Angler while I got my hours for my captain's license. Then I got my captain's license, and, kind of like you at your fly shop, people were like, dude, you're catching fish, why aren't you guiding? And I'd say, I'm not ready to guide, not yet. That was some of the advice I got early on — don't do it until you're ready. So I'd made this mental decision that I wasn't going to guide that year, and I got talked into it. One day I was at the shop — this is the story of my first trip — Peter Corbin, a really well-known artist, had been coming in and selling paintings, art, and books. He was spending a lot of time in Key West, and he was friends with Marshall Cutchin. I'd hang out with Peter, and he said, you know what, I want to go fishing tomorrow. Marshall's all booked, and everybody's booked, and he said, I want to be your first trip. I said, I'm not ready, Peter, I'm not guiding. He said, let's just go for a half day. I said, okay, I'll take you. He insisted on paying — I would've taken it for free. We went out, pulled into this place, and I thought we were going to fish for barracuda. I said, Peter, there's a permit. So we fiddled around, changed the fly, got a different rod, whatever we had to do, and he caught it on fly in the first thirty minutes of my first guided trip ever. I thought, wow, that's pretty awesome — I have that picture. Then we looked for some more barracuda for a while, didn't find any, went to another flat, started permit fishing there, and he caught another one.

Shyanne Orvis: Oh my, yeah, that's it.

Tom Rowland: Two permit on fly. So we go back in, have a nice lunch, go back to the shop, and he tells everybody he caught two permit on fly. And they're like, what? He said he wasn't ready to guide yet. I don't know what happened, because I'd never done that before — I was pulling around basically without anyone on the bow. I was finding some fish, but I don't know, it just happened. But it got me off to a pretty good start, and I think that's part of paying the dues. I'm a big believer in paying the dues — if you move into a new area, you have to develop that respect for the people around you, and that respect does not come cheap. When I started, it was basically — is your trailer there before all the other ones, and is it there after all the other ones left? You got there before, and you left after, and you did that every single day. That's how you developed some respect, and you didn't run over anybody on the water, and you didn't cause any problems, and you stayed away from everybody, and let them have it, instead of barging in there, because that never works. But the paying the dues, that's big. Tell me how paying the dues played into guiding in Colorado.

Shyanne Orvis: I'm glad you asked that, because I learned that the hard way. I worked in the shop, and expected to work there longer, and then when the guides I was surrounded by said, why don't you go guide, I said, well, okay. But there were a lot of disapproving guides in the valley who didn't feel like I was ready. I think that also plays a part in how quickly my social media career has become what it is. In a lot of ways, I think I lost a lot of respect from them, because I'm 24, and I'm doing hosted trips and partnering with companies, and from their perspective, I can see why they'd be frustrated. But from mine, I think we just grew up in a different era, and I did things the best that I could, and I would hope they'd understand or be supportive, because I never had any intent of coming in and thinking I'm a hotshot best guide. But I learned that the hard way, and that's something I'll forever keep in mind for any future opportunities.

Tom Rowland: There is that, but then maybe you just came in and saw what you wanted, and you just went for it — just like you've done for your entire life, and the whole story you just told me is exactly that. There's always room, wherever. Paying your dues is incredibly important, but a lot of people ask me about becoming a guide, and the advice I give everybody is, there is always room at the top for the cream — the cream always rises to the top, and there's always room there. If you're willing to work harder than everyone else, and for longer than anyone expects, you will end up at the top. You've got to start sometime, and everybody's going to make mistakes, and you're never going to do things the way every other person wants to see you do them. So at some point, you just got to jump — and you do. But you can also jump and remain humble while you're doing it.

Shyanne Orvis: Absolutely — I think even if I'd worked in the fly shop for ten years and then started doing what I'm doing, they still wouldn't have liked it anyway. Some of those people probably don't have a social media following, or don't understand it, or aren't very good at posting. But you're doing something a little different, and you're succeeding at it, so you're always going to have detractors — but you have far more supporters than detractors, I assure you.

Shyanne Orvis: I hear that. Sometimes I talk about this stuff on my social media, and the response I get from children who are getting into it, or fathers who say their daughter loves fishing and looks up to me — I'm sure I've made an impact in a lot of people's lives, and hearing that response is reassuring in a lot of ways. But I know me, I know my truth, I know why I do what I do, and those who meet me know that as well. There's always going to be people who dislike or disapprove of the decisions you make, and it's just not letting that eliminate you from following your passion and your purpose. So I'm just going to keep doing me.

Tom Rowland: There you go, sounds good. We've talked so much about getting women into the sport, your social media, your values, and how that all lines up to exactly where you are. There's a lot of ways people get attention these days, especially on social media, and especially women getting attention through fishing on social media — bikinis, you name it, on Instagram. I'm wondering what you think of that aspect of this business. Does it help get women into fishing? Does it hurt? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Shyanne Orvis: Of course, I've got thoughts on everything, I'm a very opinionated person. I listened to a podcast with Jen Ripple, and she said something on the same topic — with social media, there are a lot of women who maybe do it for the right reasons, and some who do it for the wrong reasons. But that's in everything, not just fishing — we just notice it because it's such a small industry. There's women who do this in every sport, or men too. We focus so much attention on women who are maybe self-promoting, and everybody in the community, because it's so small, we hyper-focus on all of it. So we're giving additional attention to those who aren't doing it for the right reasons. There are negativity accounts that kind of bully people within the fishing space — it just draws attention to something that I think we should be focusing on people or organizations who are doing good instead. I actually lost my train of thought — it'll come back to me.

Tom Rowland: I never know what to think about it, because on the one hand, maybe more women fishing is just great, and it doesn't matter what they're wearing. On the other hand, maybe it's discouraging to a lot of women who really want to fish. I have a daughter, she's 16, and I think about these things all the time — I'd love to go fishing with my daughter for the rest of her life. Instagram is everywhere, in every sport, every account for whatever activity you want to do. I really don't know what to think about it.

Shyanne Orvis: I don't know either, but I do remember what Jen said on that podcast — those who are doing it for the right reason are going to be here for a long time, and those who aren't, aren't going to last long anyway. A lot of people think I'm not doing it for the right reason, but if I wasn't, I wouldn't still be here — I would've ended my career a year after I started. She made a great point, because if you're not truly passionate about something, there's no way you're going to fly fish for the rest of your life if you don't truly love fishing. The more we pay attention to what we pay attention to is what becomes important to us. So if we're paying attention to women who are maybe sexualizing themselves, or doing it for the wrong reasons, then that's what we're going to become. It's up to all of us within the industry, this community, this sport, how we're going to pay attention to these things.

Blue Sky Thinking and Closing Thoughts

Tom Rowland: Got it — take the high road, that's what I say. I really appreciate you spending this much time with me, and I love your story, it's awesome. I want to ask you a couple more questions before we close out. Do you have a book that you've given to someone the most?

Shyanne Orvis: I love reading, actually, but my biggest thing is I never remember titles. A lot of my books are fiction, or self-help, spiritual books. I actually really like — if I can remember the title — it's something about leadership and your values within yourself. If I can remember, I'll tell you.

Tom Rowland: Jordan Peterson's book?

Shyanne Orvis: I'll Google it, maybe I'll know.

Tom Rowland: Well, I'm interested, so take your time. In the meantime, I just want to know, if you were to blue-sky it — no limitations — two or three years from now, what do you think your life would be like?

Shyanne Orvis: In two or three years from now, it would be, hopefully, revolved around a lot of love, because I love love, and kids, and feeling. As weird as it sounds, I never felt loved for most of my life. So my purpose or passion is to make other people feel loved, because I know what it feels like to not feel that. With that comes inspiring, and giving other people a safe space, and making other people feel important, or welcomed, or encouraged. I don't know what that really embodies, but I hope my life has a lot of that in it, because that's when I'm happiest. A whole lot of fishing too — saltwater fishing, permit.

Tom Rowland: I'm sure you're going to make that happen. Well, I want to thank you very much, and honor you for telling your story — it's a great story, and you really put it out there. You really did manifest it with your mind, I truly believe that, and it's cool to see, because I've done that a few times in my life, and it's cool when you see it so clearly that other people have done the same thing. I really think that's super cool, and I wish you all the very best. Maybe I'll see you down in Key West.

Shyanne Orvis: Thank you, Tom, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on your podcast — I'm just grateful for the opportunity.

Tom Rowland: You're welcome. I'll let you know when it comes out — it'll be a little bit, but when it does, I'll give you all the links, and you can share it with all your devoted followers. If people want to go fishing with you, follow you on social media, or get involved with any of your organizations or events, how would they do that?

Shyanne Orvis: My website, www.shyanneorvis.com, and my social media, at Shyanne Orvis.

Tom Rowland: Alright, sounds good. Thank you very much. I hope you get after them tomorrow, and have some beautiful weather.

Shyanne Orvis: Thank you, Tom, alright, great, take care.

Tom Rowland: Thank you, see you.