Episode 206 of the Tom Rowland Podcast is my conversation with Matt Hughes, one of the most dominant welterweights in UFC history and my favorite fighter of all time. A two-time UFC welterweight champion who defended his title nine times, Matt was a two-time Illinois state wrestling champion and two-time Division I All-American before he ever stepped into the octagon. We talk about his fighting career, the 2017 train collision that nearly killed him, the brutal recovery, and the faith, hunting, and fishing that anchor his life.
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Matt Hughes is a retired American mixed martial artist widely regarded as one of the greatest welterweights in UFC history. He won his first UFC welterweight title in 2001 against Carlos Newton, became a two-time champion, and defended the belt nine times. Before MMA he was a two-time Illinois state wrestling champion and a two-time Division I All-American. He is also a lifelong hunter and fisherman.
In June 2017, Matt Hughes was struck by a train at a crossing while driving. He was not wearing his seat belt, which he believes saved his life. The train took roughly three quarters of a mile to stop, and the conductor ran back believing he was dead. Matt suffered a severe traumatic brain injury and spent months in the hospital and rehabilitation.
It was life-threatening and grueling. Matt spent about a month in a rehabilitation facility that he describes as feeling like prison, confined to a bed enclosure he hated. He had to relearn basic functions, and there was a period where he did not recognize his own wife. His recovery from that condition to walking on his own again was remarkable.
Not at first. In one of the most striking moments of the conversation, Matt recounts a woman pushing his wheelchair and handing him her phone so he could type, because he could barely talk. He asked who she was, and she said she was his wife. He asked to see her driver's license to confirm it, and his takeaway was simply that he was happy he had married someone so beautiful.
Faith is central to how Matt frames his survival. He describes more than one moment in his life when he nearly died, including a college spillway accident where a friend pulled him from a dangerous hydraulic. Looking back on the train crash and his recovery, his recurring line is simple: God has been good to me.
Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 206 with Matt Hughes is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. The video version is embedded at the top of this page.
Matt Hughes is my favorite fighter of all time. I watched every fight. I was drawn to his style because he was a wrestler and I was a wrestler, and he made it known that he liked to hunt and fish, which is exactly my world. Right down to his walk-in song, Hank Williams Jr.'s A Country Boy Can Survive, this was my guy. When I saw an Instagram post of him in a hospital bed after being struck by a train, then watched him walk into a UFC event on his own months later to a standing ovation, I left a casual comment offering a fishing trip to celebrate his recovery. He replied almost immediately, and this conversation grew out of that.
Press play in the YouTube player at the top of this page to hear the whole conversation.
Before the octagon, Matt was a two-time Illinois state wrestling champion and a two-time Division I All-American. He won his first UFC welterweight title in 2001 against Carlos Newton and went on to defend it nine times during an era stacked with names like Rich Franklin, Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, and Tito Ortiz. We talk about that run and what made his style so hard to beat. Listen to it in the episode.
Matt walks me through the crossing, the moment of impact, and the strange details, that he was on the phone, that the train took three quarters of a mile to stop, and that the conductor ran back assuming he was dead. He is honest that not wearing his seat belt likely saved his life, and just as honest about wondering where his head was that day. Hear him tell it in his own words.
The hardest and most human part of this conversation is Matt describing waking up unable to recognize the woman caring for him. He asked to see her driver's license to confirm she really was his wife. The way he tells it, with humor and gratitude rather than self-pity, says everything about who he is. Press play in the YouTube player above.
The train crash was not the first time Matt nearly died. He tells the story of a college spillway accident, caught in a dangerous hydraulic, and how a friend saved his life. Across all of it, his framing is the same: God has been good to me. Listen to that section of the episode.
Listen to the full conversation: Apple Podcasts · Spotify · or watch in the YouTube player at the top of this page.
I have admired Matt Hughes since I was watching every one of his fights, and getting to know the man behind the fighter only deepened that. The toughness that made him a champion is the same toughness that got him out of that hospital bed and back on his feet.
What stays with me is his gratitude. A man who has nearly died more than once talks about it with humor and faith rather than bitterness. That is the real fighting life. Listen to the whole conversation.
The Tom Rowland Podcast brings you long-form conversations with the most accomplished anglers, hunters, conservationists, and outdoor professionals in the game. Listen to every full-length Tom Rowland Podcast interview.
Matt Hughes is a retired American mixed martial artist regarded as one of the greatest welterweights in UFC history. A two-time UFC welterweight champion who defended his title nine times, he was previously a two-time Illinois state wrestling champion and a two-time Division I All-American. In June 2017 he survived a near-fatal train collision and a traumatic brain injury, undergoing a long and difficult recovery. A lifelong hunter and fisherman of deep faith, he lives in Illinois.
Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 206 with Matt Hughes.
Tom Rowland: Hey, everybody. I'm glad you're with us on the podcast today. Got a very, very special guest. I've wanted to have this gentleman on the podcast, and I wanted to have him on our fishing show as well, for a long time. He was a two-time Illinois state wrestling champion in 1991 and '92. He went on to earn Division I All-American honors two times. His first fight in the UFC octagon was in 1999 at UFC 22. He won his first UFC world welterweight title in 2001 at UFC 34 against Carlos Newton. This guy went on to become the most dominant welterweight in history, and he's my favorite. I watched every fight. I was drawn to his style. He was a wrestler. I was a wrestler. He made it known that he liked to hunt and fish. I like to hunt and fish. This was my guy. And if you're a UFC fan, you know immediately who I'm talking about. This is Matt Hughes.
Tom Rowland: Matt Hughes, in the early two thousands, was the welterweight champion along with a lineup of some really exciting and fun people to watch. Rich Franklin, Chuck Liddell, Tim Sylvia, Randy Couture was in that mix. Tito Ortiz was up in there. And there were some amazing fights and some really, really fun times for the UFC, and Matt defended his title nine times and earned that title of most dominant welterweight in history.
Tom Rowland: I met him for the first time in 2010 in passing at the Shot Show, and then just kind of followed what he was doing and came across a post that did not look good at all. Looking further into it, he had been struck by a train. Struck by a train. Strange thing to happen. And I tried to get more details. There were not many details available, and it didn't seem like very long later, maybe five months later — I could be wrong on that timeline — but a short amount of time to come from the condition that I saw him in that hospital bed to walking into an event that the UFC was having, a big fight where he walked on his own all the way down just like he was walking in as a fighter, and the crowd stood on their feet and honored him.
Tom Rowland: And I just put a little something on his Instagram, just a casual comment. Said, hey, champ. Been a big fan for a long time. I think we should celebrate your recovery with a fishing trip with Saltwater Experience. And I didn't think anything of it, but almost immediately he said, I'm in. And that started my correspondence with Matt. Finally, we got our schedules together. I got him down to Hawks Cay, and we did a great television show together, and he also sat down with us on this podcast.
Tom Rowland: So, Matt. He was incredibly inspirational to me before. Now he is even more inspirational as he has recovered from this very traumatic accident, and he's done it in a way that is really incredible. I mean, I don't know anybody that could survive a train accident other than someone like Matt Hughes. And he's come back with just an incredible attitude, a great sense of humor, and really just a great outlook. He's a guy that loves to hunt and fish. He loves the outdoors, and it was a real pleasure. His health is very good. He gets around great. He drove himself all the way down to the Florida Keys. He can do anything.
Tom Rowland: He underwent a brain injury in this train accident, and it has affected his speech. So when you hear this, that's what's going on. If you didn't know about Matt Hughes before, you will after this. And for the UFC fans, this will be a treat. I know it was for me. So stand by for a great conversation with the one and only nine-time world welterweight UFC champion, Matt Hughes.
Tom Rowland: Alright. We're live. I'm sitting here at Hawks Cay with Matt Hughes. Matt Hughes, how are you doing?
Matt Hughes: I had a good day.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Me too. Me too. That was awesome. So you've never fished down here before, and we are in the Florida Keys. And, Matt Hughes, I've watched your fights for a long time. We made contact on Instagram, strangely enough. It was some kind of progress on your health, and I just put a comment there and said, glad to see you up and at them. Once you start feeling better, let's come down and have a fishing trip with Saltwater Experience. And then we started talking. It took about six or seven months to set it up, but here it just happened. What'd you think?
Matt Hughes: I don't understand it, but I'm so excited for today. It was the first time catching a shark.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You caught a nurse shark and an Atlantic sharpnose. It was a good day.
Matt Hughes: I'm gonna have you write that down so I can show it to my wife. I will forget by the time I get home.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, we'll write it down. He was just showing me his collection.
Matt Hughes: I won't put it with the guns. I said with the other animals.
Tom Rowland: It can make it outside. It's a fiberglass mount.
Matt Hughes: In the room without the mount? Not in the vault.
Tom Rowland: I gotcha. That's for the guns. And how many do you think you have in there?
Matt Hughes: I have no idea. Who wants to count how many guns they have? Why would I say I have too many?
Tom Rowland: He said just buy everything in black. Everything's black, and then when you bring it home, nobody notices. Everything's black, and it looks just the same as the other one.
Matt Hughes: That's a good idea. Damn guns, you can't — they all look different.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Have you been collecting guns for a long time?
Matt Hughes: When I met my wife, her father is a big gun collector, so we go together. He'd always push my hand down, and I just had to raise the other one.
Tom Rowland: At the auctions? I would think that a gun auction — when you go to one of those, is it like antique weapons, or what is it?
Matt Hughes: I bought everything at auctions, but I love antiques.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You were showing me some of the guns off that train. We can't remember what it was, but what's the story on that? Those are like really old guns.
Matt Hughes: Yes. They were on trains in the eighteen hundreds.
Tom Rowland: Oh, really? Have you ever been to that museum in Bozeman, Montana? And then there's another one in Cody, Wyoming that has tons of old antique weapons.
Matt Hughes: Is anything for sale?
Tom Rowland: I don't know. I think it's like your place. Nothing's for sale. It's all for show.
Matt Hughes: Guns are not sold.
Tom Rowland: I gotcha. That's cool. So will you continue to expand that collection?
Matt Hughes: I've got so much. How many more do I need?
Tom Rowland: You're gonna need to make a few more slots.
Matt Hughes: I tell everyone, if the apocalypse comes, I need trigger pullers. I don't need ammo. Don't need guns. Just people to pull the trigger.
Tom Rowland: That's where I'm coming. I'm going right to your house.
Matt Hughes: I buy ammo all the time because those people need to make money too.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. They do. Do you like to shoot the .22? Do you have a .22?
Matt Hughes: Maybe for short-range target.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Just like plinking. Boy, for a while there, the .22 ammunition got so hard to get. I don't know what happened with that, but it was really, really hard to get, and we quit shooting it. And I have this little .22 pistol that I like to go shoot with my kids. It's just really fun, and it's a great way to teach a kid how to shoot a pistol because it doesn't really kick very much. And that ammunition, it wasn't even that it was expensive. You just couldn't find it anywhere.
Matt Hughes: People have bought it up. It was hard around me to find ammunition for calibers like that. It just went crazy for a second. They can't make it fast enough. So they bought it all.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Are you responsible for that?
Matt Hughes: Maybe. A little. But my ammo I treat like my guns — it's to be bought, not sold.
Tom Rowland: Does everybody else in your family collect?
Matt Hughes: My twins got a couple, but nothing like me.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. What does he do for a living?
Matt Hughes: He puts up solar panels for people.
Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah. That's good. That's a great field to be in right now.
Matt Hughes: I just don't know when it's going to die off.
Tom Rowland: I don't know. I think it's only going up. That's what I see, more and more people putting that on their roof and just going solar. Seems like a good thing.
Matt Hughes: Should I? I just don't know enough about it. What's the benefits?
Tom Rowland: The benefits are that you don't get a power bill every month.
Matt Hughes: Yes. And I know you can sell to them, but I just need to know figures. I couldn't even tell you what I pay for stuff like that because my wife takes care of all the bills.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Mine too. That's a good thing to have, a wife that takes care of that, because that's not my forte. I'm not a money person.
Matt Hughes: If I've got money in my pocket, it won't last that long because I'll spend it. I can tell by your gun room.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Nobody's listening anyway.
Matt Hughes: I don't worry about anything breaking because it's all concrete.
Tom Rowland: That's cool. So what about the fishing? Have you done much fishing before?
Matt Hughes: I've done some big fishing, but nothing like this. Triggerfish and orange roughy was about it.
Tom Rowland: And, well, we lucked into a very good day. The weather has been really stormy. Yesterday, I had my doubts, and I was really kinda worried about today. But we went out early, and right away we were on fish.
Matt Hughes: I would agree. It just seemed too good to be true.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. But it wasn't. That's the Keys. The Florida Keys is really an amazing place.
Tom Rowland: So how's your health these days?
Matt Hughes: I think I'm pretty healthy. Now I wish I could talk a little better to keep my wife off my butt. Can I say butt here?
Tom Rowland: You can say butt here.
Matt Hughes: Can I say other things too?
Tom Rowland: Whatever.
Matt Hughes: I'll be a good boy. So she just says I should slow it down and talk better because I get in a hurry where I just start speeding things up.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So maybe a lot of people don't know what happened about thirteen months ago. You were in an accident where you were hit by a train. You were in your pickup truck. Is that right?
Matt Hughes: It was his pickup truck. I was working for him, so I was taking some fuel to a tractor.
Tom Rowland: So you had fuel in the truck too when you got hit?
Matt Hughes: And the tank was found like a hundred feet away.
Tom Rowland: Wow. And so do you remember anything?
Matt Hughes: Not really. I remember going back and being so disappointed because there were no trees in the way. I was hoping there'd be a reason I should have seen that train. I just don't know what was going on.
Tom Rowland: And so you go back with your wife or your family — what was that like going back to the scene of this thing?
Matt Hughes: I was just pissed. There was no tree there or nothing to keep me from seeing it. They say when you go over a raised incline, just wait about a car coming so you don't think about a train. But I should have still seen it. Makes me wonder where my head was.
Tom Rowland: You said you're on the phone, right? And who were you talking to?
Matt Hughes: No one important.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And so then the train, you told me that it took three-quarters of a mile to stop, and then the conductor or the driver ran back to you?
Matt Hughes: He thought I was dead, so I laid back and took a big gasp. He's just happy I was alive. I didn't have my seat belt on, so that probably saved my life.
Tom Rowland: And then you go to the hospital for months?
Matt Hughes: In rehab, I felt like I was in prison.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You said when you were talking on the TV — was it just because you couldn't move?
Matt Hughes: And they were so confining. I'm an American boy that does what he wants, and they wouldn't let me do anything. And they had me in a bed enclosure, which is a bed that has sides and sits up. I hate hate hated that bed.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And how long do you think that you were in that kind of facility?
Matt Hughes: Maybe a month, which to me is a long time.
Tom Rowland: I mean, especially for you. You're super active, and coming off of being so active to be there — but like you say, gotta be super thankful that you're alive when you look at the pictures of the accident. I haven't seen them yet.
Matt Hughes: I'm waiting for the right time to show them. God's really been good to me. He's really saved my life. I was the last day of school at college. Me and some roommates were swimming, and my roommates got stranded, but I jumped in to save one. The current pushed me downstream. So when I jumped in, I wasn't worried about them anymore. I was worried about myself. So God's been good to me.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And were you guys, like, jumping off a bridge into a river? Or…
Matt Hughes: It was a spillway, but too much water was running and made what they call a hydraulic.
Tom Rowland: Yes. And then it held them under?
Matt Hughes: Yes. It'll hold you under for three cycles, and then I figured out how to get out by rolling, tucking up in a ball, and it spit me out, like they said, one foot downstream. So I was going downstream, not back to the hydraulic.
Tom Rowland: Wow. And your two roommates died in that. Wow. That's terrible. And then this deal with the train accident. God has been good to you.
Matt Hughes: I told you the story about this lady pushed my wheelchair, and I was like, who are you? And she gave me her phone so I could tap on it because I couldn't talk very well. I said, who are you? She said, I'm your wife. And I typed in, let me see your driver's license. So she showed me her driver's license. I was just happy I'd made someone so beautiful. That's a true story.
Tom Rowland: Wow. And that had to be a pretty emotional moment for her too, that you didn't recognize her.
Matt Hughes: Yes. She's been through a lot with this.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Did you keep your memories otherwise?
Matt Hughes: Yes. I think besides being 44, I have all my memories.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Except for pretty much that day, I guess. Right? Wow. Well, you remember all your fights?
Matt Hughes: Most of them.
Tom Rowland: Most of them?
Matt Hughes: Just the ones I want to remember. I just remember one BJ Penn fight.
Tom Rowland: Just one?
Matt Hughes: The one I won.
Tom Rowland: You remember the one you won. Well, that's a convenient memory.
Matt Hughes: I know other people have a convenient memory. There's a lot…
Tom Rowland: There's a lot of fishing tournaments I'd like to forget. Somehow, sometimes that's the lesson. Somehow, there's a lesson there. But my favorite fight, probably — I watched all your fights, and my kids watched all your fights. And I would think that maybe my favorite — there are two that really, really — well, I don't know. One being Trigg two, I really like that one.
Matt Hughes: That one, I'm trying not to guess. That guy knew he hit me low, and he didn't try to give me time to recoup. That really pissed me off.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I could tell because you took him across the ring and slammed him.
Matt Hughes: I told you why I did that. I knew I was right in front of his corner, and I knew where my corner was. And I went to hear my corner and take him away so he couldn't hear his.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Smart. Did that have a part in it?
Matt Hughes: I did that with all my advice. I need my seminar in front of my corner.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And what kind of communication are you getting in your corner at that point? Anything could help.
Matt Hughes: Yes. There, my ears are open.
Tom Rowland: Right. And your coach was Pat Miletich?
Matt Hughes: Pat Miletich and Jeremy Horn and whoever else was free at that time.
Tom Rowland: Right. And that was a band of killers that you guys had.
Matt Hughes: Yes. I ended up learning a lot.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You did. What was that like? That culture — I mean, Jeremy Horn had probably fought hundreds of times at that stage and then still had a lot more. So he probably had more experience than anyone. Pat Miletich had — I mean…
Matt Hughes: I think no one was in a position that Jeremy Horn was not in, so he knew everything.
Tom Rowland: Did you ever fight him?
Matt Hughes: No. Luckily, no.
Tom Rowland: And I was thinking maybe in the early days, because…
Matt Hughes: He was a little heavier.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And what was it like training with — I mean, how would you guys train with that group? You had Tim Sylvia, who was the champion at the same time that you were the champion, right?
Matt Hughes: Yes.
Tom Rowland: And then Robbie Lawler was coming up. Jens Pulver was coming up. Who else was there?
Matt Hughes: Dave Menne every now and then and a bunch of the guys that you never heard of. And Spencer Fisher.
Tom Rowland: Okay.
Matt Hughes: You remember him? He was a great striker. And even trickier on the ground.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And what was the culture like there?
Matt Hughes: It was, and we'd learn by beating the crap out of each other. But that's when you'd learn both sides. When someone beat me up, I learned how to dip in. And when he was beating me up, he was learning how to throw a punch. I was just happy and just having fun beating people up.
Tom Rowland: What was the first little show or the first time that you kind of thought, well, I'm a wrestler, and there's this thing here. Maybe I could go in there. Was it like a tough man contest? Back then…
Matt Hughes: It was no holds barred, but it was kind of like a tough man. My first fight ever was in a girls' old Catholic school in Chicago.
Tom Rowland: Really?
Matt Hughes: Madonna High School.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And how were they recruiting fighters? Like, just like a tough man contest — if you think you're tough, show up?
Matt Hughes: But I knew if he's close enough to me, I'm close enough to take him down and whoop him on the ground.
Tom Rowland: And that was your strategy for a long time. But it was your strategy until — along the way, you're picking up more jiu-jitsu and more submissions. But is this correct, that you never received a black belt in jiu-jitsu?
Matt Hughes: Correct.
Tom Rowland: And is that on purpose?
Matt Hughes: They just didn't give them out.
Tom Rowland: So you felt comfortable. I mean, you're training with black belts. You're fighting black belts, but that just was not part of the culture.
Matt Hughes: Correct. Correct. And I tapped a black belt, but who cares?
Tom Rowland: Right.
Matt Hughes: I don't care about taps. I care about making some money.
Tom Rowland: So from Madonna High School, you had a good experience, and you think maybe I'll try another?
Matt Hughes: Yeah. Yes. Then I went and fought for a promoter who happened to be my manager a couple years after that first night. So it worked out that good. The way God put people in my life was perfect.
Tom Rowland: Yes. And did he stay with you the whole time?
Matt Hughes: Pretty much till the end, then I didn't need a manager.
Tom Rowland: And so at that time — what, the early nineties? — the UFC was still not really a thing. Right?
Matt Hughes: It was a thing, but not great.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like, UFC one was on VHS, and I had it, and I watched it with my friends. Watched Royce Gracie and Dan Severn fight. But it was not owned by the Fertitta brothers, and Dana White wasn't a part of it yet.
Matt Hughes: They came in in 2001.
Tom Rowland: 2001. Okay. And that's when it really took off. Now were you involved with the UFC before Dana White was involved?
Matt Hughes: Yes.
Tom Rowland: And what were the changes that you saw once those guys got involved?
Matt Hughes: They made it more like — I went to fight week and had stuff to do with interviews and publications, so they really made it more like a job.
Tom Rowland: And then did you just start seeing that this has more momentum, and all of a sudden the payouts are a little bit more?
Matt Hughes: Yes. And I won the title.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It was you, I believe Tito, Rich Franklin, and Sylvia, Chuck Liddell. That seemed like the lineup that I remember.
Matt Hughes: And Chuck was the real workhorse. He would fight anyone.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. He's getting ready to fight Tito again.
Matt Hughes: Yes. I'm looking forward to that.
Tom Rowland: Do you think — what do you think about the older fighters fighting like that?
Matt Hughes: That's what I want to watch.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You do. Because they're the fighters that I'm the most confident in or most comfortable watching, because I watched them fight all the way up. And then what if you had, like, a Stephan Bonnar, Forrest Griffin rematch now?
Matt Hughes: We can talk about it, but we don't know because it could be a big failure. We just don't know.
Tom Rowland: But do you think that the Chuck-Tito fight is gonna be a barn burner?
Matt Hughes: Can I speak honestly? He's a good friend, and I'm not a big fan of Tito's.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. You never fought Tito, did you?
Matt Hughes: I wrestled him one time in Abu Dhabi.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. In submission wrestling?
Matt Hughes: He beat me by a bit.
Tom Rowland: He's a lot bigger than you. Right?
Matt Hughes: They brought me up two weight classes.
Tom Rowland: You went up two weight classes. So you're wrestling, what, one ninety-five?
Matt Hughes: Probably.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And he was…
Matt Hughes: He was probably well over two hundred.
Tom Rowland: As a wrestler myself, to go into like a grappling or submission wrestling kind of deal — did you just learn some stuff from Miletich and the people around there, and you're taking your regular wrestling and throwing a couple of submissions in? You took to that pretty well?
Matt Hughes: Yes. I did.
Tom Rowland: Did you — what about jiu-jitsu, where all of a sudden you're kind of fighting off your back on purpose?
Matt Hughes: I like being on my back now. But when I was training, I was always trying to start on top.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It seems like wrestlers have no problem making the transition. I don't know anything about it personally. I just wrestle with my kids in the high school room and get killed.
Tom Rowland: So how do you think — how do you think things have gone for you since the accident, all things considered?
Matt Hughes: I think I'm much happier to be alive. And my wife says I'm a better person now, so I think she's right. It just makes me appreciate everything.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, you seem like you're super thankful for everything. That's one thing that stood out. And I kind of wondered that as we were getting closer. I was wondering if that was an outlook that had become more a part of your life after this accident.
Matt Hughes: I've got a question for you. Did you think I'd come down there and be, you know, not be all there?
Tom Rowland: No. I didn't. I mean, I had watched — I saw you come into the UFC when they brought you in, and you had an obvious limp. And then we talked on the phone, and your speech wasn't the same, but I didn't have any doubts that you were going to be able to do it at all. And you did great. You were hit by a train. So, I mean, I think you're doing pretty good.
Matt Hughes: It's just a damn train. Just a damn train.
Tom Rowland: Well, no. I didn't really have any idea.
Matt Hughes: Hope you can work something out of the footage.
Tom Rowland: Absolutely. We will. We had incredible drone footage. And, you know, when you're catching eight-foot nurse sharks, it turns out pretty good, especially for somebody that has never caught one before.
Matt Hughes: I'm just not used to one thing. I want to touch this shark. And I would love it to beat me against him.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, it kind of was. There's a mechanical advantage, but I think you wanted to actually hand-line it. And that is something that you can do. We weren't really prepared for it today. We need a lot longer rope than what we have, but you can hand-line those things. But it's tricky. And if that rope gets around your foot, that thing is pulling you in.
Matt Hughes: I think I'm coordinated enough to keep that from happening.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I hope. It's kind of scary because I don't know. I've done it before.
Matt Hughes: If we do it, that's what we're going to do.
Tom Rowland: Okay. And then there's some other creatures that you can hand-line if you'd like to. Goliath groupers that look like a largemouth bass, but they get up to about 400 pounds. And those are good hand-line targets as well.
Matt Hughes: Sounds fun. You have me excited already.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, we'll do it again, and maybe we'll go elk hunting with my son too. He is starting his elk hunting guide career tomorrow. I was just talking to him on the phone. He's so excited about it. And one of the things I was trying to remind him is I said, hey, a year ago, this was just a dream that you had, and you've actually made it happen. And he was like, wow. Yeah. I guess I didn't realize that, but I guess that's what can happen. And that's what he's done, and I'm just really super proud of him. I hope his first season goes really well.
Matt Hughes: You should be excited, and I hope people pay attention and put goals out there to make their life better.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. How did you — when you're looking at a big fight coming up, or you're looking at wanting to be the champion, or you're looking at your wrestling career — what was your goal-setting process like?
Matt Hughes: I was just trying to put myself in position to beat my opponent. Might be striking or could be submission. Like, Carlos Newton didn't throw many punches on the ground. When he hit the ground, he was a grappler. And I wanted to take him out of that, so I would throw punches. So I put myself in a position to be the better athlete.
Tom Rowland: So when that goes into your day-to-day training — like, striking may not have been your strong suit. So how do you attack your weaknesses?
Matt Hughes: I work on my weaknesses more than I work on my strengths. And that was what we did all the time.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Work on weaknesses. And is there a way that you're working on what's going on in your mind when you're preparing for a really difficult fight?
Matt Hughes: When I had a tough opponent, I put a picture of him up.
Tom Rowland: And then what was your workday like in your prime? As far as how much you were training, how much you're working on recovery, how many hours a day would you be training?
Matt Hughes: I would wake up, go for a jog in the morning, probably half hour, four to five miles, nothing too bad. Then it was drilling or grappling, whatever I could find a partner for. Then take lunch and take a break after lunch. Then that night was heavy sparring or heavy technique. Could be takedowns, could be grappling, could be sparring, but that's where the sweat was at nights. Then eating, then you have off.
Tom Rowland: So the first part of the day was almost kind of recovery from the day before, just moving and getting your body moving, clearing the lactic acid and feeling better, getting rehydrated, ready for that evening session.
Matt Hughes: Yes. The evening session was tough.
Tom Rowland: God. I'd like to have seen that evening session.
Matt Hughes: We could have sold tickets.
Tom Rowland: I know you could have. I mean, you had the best fighters in the business in there. Nobody could come in?
Matt Hughes: Pat let people come in.
Tom Rowland: Really?
Matt Hughes: Yes. Because you couldn't keep everyone out.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. They just wanted to see. Man.
Tom Rowland: Did you ever have a fight that you wanted that you didn't get?
Matt Hughes: Kind of. When I was champion, I would've tried to fight the 185 champ for the belt. Evan Tanner was a champion at one time, and I asked to fight him. It never got worked out, though. We were two good friends.
Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah? Is he still a friend today? He always seemed like a good person.
Matt Hughes: He is.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. What does he do? So what is he doing today?
Matt Hughes: He's working with ONE FC. Final organization — I don't know exactly what else. I can ask him if you want.
Tom Rowland: It's okay. We'll ask him later, but that's cool. I'm glad to hear he's doing well. He was a favorite too. I liked watching him.
Matt Hughes: We had a show together. Did you watch that?
Tom Rowland: Probably. What? The Ultimate Fighter?
Matt Hughes: Yeah. Season six.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Did you like the Ultimate Fighter shows?
Matt Hughes: Yes and no. I didn't like being in Vegas for that long. But my family came out there, so they made it so much better. The show was fine. I just didn't like where it was.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's hard to be away from home like that.
Matt Hughes: I'm not a big city person either.
Tom Rowland: And was that when Rashad was — was he on season six? You were a coach on The Ultimate Fighter.
Matt Hughes: Season six.
Tom Rowland: Okay. So season two and season six. And I think he was on season two, right, with Forrest Griffin?
Matt Hughes: Forrest was season one.
Tom Rowland: Season one. Okay. I get them confused at this point, but it's amazing how many high-profile fighters came out of those series and really ended up doing well.
Matt Hughes: You're right about Rashad. He maybe was season two.
Tom Rowland: And then he ended up doing great. He was a multi-time champion, right?
Matt Hughes: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: I'd like to know what he's doing today too. He was still fighting recently.
Tom Rowland: So what else? What's important to you these days?
Matt Hughes: My family and God. To be honest, I pray a lot. Maybe that's why we caught so many fish today.
Tom Rowland: Well, right? Pray too. There's a lot of fishing in the Bible, but you're right. I mean, maybe that's what it was. I don't know. Every time I go out there, I learn something new.
Matt Hughes: What'd you learn today?
Tom Rowland: I learned not to take a liver shot from Matt Hughes.
Matt Hughes: You don't even know what that's about, though. You're just talking rumors. No. I saw you give Marty a liver shot. It wasn't nothing. And believe me…
Tom Rowland: I know it wasn't anything. But that was one of the things that I learned today. Another thing that I learned today is that we had two break-offs earlier, and I don't have any idea why. And when things like that happen, you just realize it doesn't matter how long you do this and how many things you see. There's just always something new. And I don't know if that's the way I was tying the knot today or the brand of fluorocarbon that we were using, but something wasn't right, and it happened twice. And when something like that happens twice — I don't know if you noticed, but we got rid of all that line and put all new line on, and it didn't happen anymore.
Matt Hughes: You want me to tell you whose fault it was? Mine — no, the cameraman.
Tom Rowland: The cameraman?
Matt Hughes: It's always the cameraman.
Tom Rowland: It's always the cameraman. Actually, it can be kind of funny, but I always try to be super nice to the cameraman because they're the ones that make you look really good or really bad, and the editor even more so.
Matt Hughes: Who's the editor? I was trying to be nice to those guys. I do that because that's who I am. I'm just a worker. Just got lucky in life.
Tom Rowland: Got lucky to be really good at beating people up?
Matt Hughes: I had the best job in the world.
Tom Rowland: Well, you not only had the best job in the world, but you hit it at a time — you were on the wave. You caught the wave. And, I mean, had you been doing that ten years earlier, it would have been a whole different story.
Matt Hughes: Yes. I'd be working at a 7-Eleven today.
Tom Rowland: But you hit that wave perfectly. Many of the others, like a lot of the guys that were in UFC one, the sport just wasn't there. And when you were getting involved and then Dana White gets involved and the Fertitta brothers get involved, and then there was, like, a legality thing where they got it sanctioned. Was that the first place?
Matt Hughes: I think so. The old UFC ran away from the athletic commissions, and the new UFC ran toward them.
Tom Rowland: That was a major change. Because now that it's sanctioned, it seems like it was more legit, and then they could actually put it on in more places. And then I would imagine that's where — now that Vegas is embracing the UFC and there's a couple of different places that these fights are being held, there's more and more people that are allowed to come, and then the pay-per-view starts to grow, and then the sport just grows. But it's amazing to see what those guys have done.
Tom Rowland: I try to learn from every source about everything, and see what principles have worked for other people and then maybe try to apply just one little piece of that to my business or to the show or whatever. And I look to the UFC a lot because if you're a fan of the UFC and you did watch UFC one and see where that sport has grown, it's not by accident. It's a lot of hard work, and what those guys have done is really incredible.
Matt Hughes: I think that's smart for you to do. Model yourself after a successful company.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, you try to. But if you look at the UFC and you start thinking, okay, why are their fans so into what they're doing? And one of the reasons, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression that Dana White was adamant that the fighters would give the public time and that they would talk to them. Tell me about that.
Matt Hughes: Yes. And the way I look at it, that person, they came up with my paycheck. They gave their money to the UFC, and the UFC gave that money to me.
Tom Rowland: Right. And that's as opposed to a lot of these sports where the athletes — I mean, they might get to see him come in. They might wave at him or whatever. But at the UFC, that's — the couple fights that I've been to, I've been very surprised at how available the fighters are. I mean, there's lots of fighters at the fights. And if you go and say hi to them, they were very happy to talk. All the ones that I said hi to were that way. And I think it's just an interesting culture that you're in — hyper-aggression, violent sport, but these people are super approachable and very nice, and they all seem to realize as you do that this big room full of people is what makes it happen. You gotta be super appreciative of that. And without those people, the UFC goes back to fighting in a parking lot in a tent, right? Like, if only a few people are interested in it. But that was my experience.
Matt Hughes: I'm glad you got a good experience.
Tom Rowland: It was. It was a great experience. My first fight was the Serra-GSP fight. And I was sitting right up front, and I got to see Matt Serra.
Matt Hughes: Got to see the lucky punch.
Tom Rowland: You may call it lucky, call it whatever, but those fights can end — pretty much anybody can get a lucky punch in, I guess. When you're that talented to be in the UFC, don't you think that anybody could — I mean, it could happen to anyone, right?
Matt Hughes: It's a bunch of hard hitters. You get hit in the wrong place, bad things are gonna happen.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So how do you avoid that for so long, like, in your career?
Matt Hughes: Keep your hands up.
Tom Rowland: I always tell my kids…
Matt Hughes: Just hit the ear because it's all tender around there.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Matt Hughes: Last place I wanna get hit is in the ear.
Tom Rowland: Do you remember when Seth Petruzelli got his ear ripped? Oh, that was really something to watch. Have you ever seen that happen in training?
Matt Hughes: No. I don't think so. Wow.
Tom Rowland: Your ears have never exploded?
Matt Hughes: No. I've been good about keeping my hands up. I can tell you've rubbed your ears enough…
Tom Rowland: …where you have two trophies on both sides of your head.
Matt Hughes: If I have nothing else, I've got two trophies on my head.
Tom Rowland: Yep. I remember one UFC video, and it was all about who had the best cauliflower ear. I don't know who else had quite as good a cauliflower ear. But Randy Couture, he could definitely be up there. I've never seen his ears in person. I've seen him on TV.
Matt Hughes: They're so ugly.
Tom Rowland: They're just two little holes. Where do you think he got that so bad? From wrestling or from fighting?
Matt Hughes: I would say wrestling.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And he was a great champion, right?
Matt Hughes: And those guys shouldn't have cauliflower.
Tom Rowland: So what is it? Are some people just more susceptible to it than others?
Matt Hughes: I don't know. It could be the way he wrestles.
Tom Rowland: He was a great champion. Do you stay in touch with him?
Matt Hughes: I follow him on his Instagram.
Tom Rowland: That's about it. Well, that's cool. So what about your deer hunting this year? You're gonna be able to deer hunt? That's when you get home, right?
Matt Hughes: Yes. But my brother feeds the deer. I just cut off the passes to the field.
Tom Rowland: And you hunt the same property every year?
Matt Hughes: I have my own property.
Tom Rowland: Do you manage that, like, all year long?
Matt Hughes: All I care about is the deer.
Tom Rowland: Do you have those cameras that send you pictures to your phone?
Matt Hughes: Nope. My son has them.
Tom Rowland: And he just tells you where the big ones are?
Matt Hughes: I just know where they're at.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, he who holds the cameras holds the secrets. And you trust him to not just go right over there?
Matt Hughes: I go where I want.
Tom Rowland: So what's the biggest deer that you caught off your own property? I'm always thinking fishing. What's your biggest deer off your own property?
Matt Hughes: Only a couple. There's bigger deer around there, but not in my spot. So that's a better-than-average deer. Pike County, which is a couple counties away, has big deer.
Tom Rowland: What's the difference?
Matt Hughes: We have the same soil, but…
Tom Rowland: And you like to bow hunt too? Which do you prefer?
Matt Hughes: I like seeing the facial expression of the deer, so I probably like bow because you're so close.
Tom Rowland: That's cool. And do you have wooded areas on your property? Not just fields.
Matt Hughes: No. I have all kinds of timber.
Tom Rowland: What else do you hunt? Do you hunt ducks?
Matt Hughes: No. I have too many teeth.
Tom Rowland: Too many teeth? Tell that to the people in Mississippi. That's where my dad always took me, to Mississippi. We used to hunt out at Yazoo City and saw some pretty good duck hunts down there. I like duck hunting. I just — I've said it before — I just don't really like to eat them.
Matt Hughes: I was gonna ask you.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I don't really like to eat them. And then if I don't like to eat them, then it takes some of it away for me.
Matt Hughes: I don't blame you. Do you like quail?
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I love quail.
Matt Hughes: I love quail.
Tom Rowland: I like pheasant. I like deer, and I love elk, but I have never killed an elk myself. And my son's going to be an elk guide, so I think I'm going out there. So hopefully, I'll kill an elk.
Matt Hughes: Time to take all the back straps out and keep them for yourself. And tenderloins.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Matt Hughes: You could take the tenderloins easy.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Out of the guest's elk? I'll clean it for you. Well, I don't know. I think that might be what they do. But I know that when I started guiding, they would just make hamburger, and we had elk burgers all summer, and they were terrific. Actually, I can't wait to get an elk.
Matt Hughes: I don't blame you. It's excellent food, hormone free.
Tom Rowland: Just like that fish. What'd you think about that fish we had?
Matt Hughes: That was excellent. I love it — it's got some spice on it. I love Cajun food, though.
Tom Rowland: Cajun?
Matt Hughes: Yes.
Tom Rowland: Do you ever spend much time — do you ever fight in New Orleans?
Matt Hughes: My first fight in the UFC. It was Louisiana.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's New Orleans.
Matt Hughes: Lake Charles.
Tom Rowland: Lake Charles. Is there a casino there or something? What kind of venue was it?
Matt Hughes: We'll look it up when we get down.
Tom Rowland: We had a redfish tournament in Lake Charles, Louisiana. Do you remember who you fought? Of course you do.
Matt Hughes: Valeri Ignatov. Really. Valeri Ignatov.
Tom Rowland: Russian?
Matt Hughes: Yes. He was big and mean. No.
Tom Rowland: Big and mean? No, he wasn't?
Matt Hughes: No. He was a small guy, and I was a wrestler. So he never saw my ankles.
Tom Rowland: As your recovery improves, what are you doing to stay busy?
Matt Hughes: I got some things in my shop I work on, but I just love getting up and being a man, going to work. So I have a couple of people I run equipment for, like track hoes and stuff like that.
Tom Rowland: You like that time?
Matt Hughes: Yeah. I love it. I've got my own track hoe at home.
Tom Rowland: And that's a lot of good thinking time.
Matt Hughes: Yes. And I probably pray most of the time.
Tom Rowland: You pray most of the time when you're riding the tractor?
Matt Hughes: When I'm driving a tractor, it just gives me someone to talk to.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, you have a lot to be thankful for. You really do. And I know that you were a great champion in the UFC. I really enjoyed watching your fights. And the way that you fought and the way that you handled yourself was also fun to have my kids around and watch. When you won, you were cool about it. When you lost, you were cool about it. You were just a gentleman. And it was a good thing to watch with my kids. So I'm really super happy that you're doing better after the train wreck, and it was awesome to have you down here and to go fishing.
Matt Hughes: Well, how about next time I go man on man against the damn shark?
Tom Rowland: We'll do it.
Matt Hughes: I'm not used to all this leverage and machinery. I just want to fight him.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, we'll make sure that happens next time. We'll get you the hand line, and we can make it happen.
Matt Hughes: I'll bring down a pair of gloves. Okay.
Tom Rowland: Alright. Matt Hughes. If you wanna follow Matt Hughes, what's your Instagram? Do you know?
Matt Hughes: I think it's matthughes9x.
Tom Rowland: Nine x. Yeah. Do you have any other social media platforms?
Matt Hughes: Facebook, it would be the same, I think.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Matt Hughes 9x. Nine x stands for nine-time world welterweight UFC champion.
Matt Hughes: I got lucky nine times.
Tom Rowland: You — I don't know. I saw some of those fights. There wasn't a lot of luck involved in a couple of them.
Matt Hughes: What's your favorite fight?
Tom Rowland: Trigg two or Carlos Newton. I really like Carlos Newton. And then, honestly, I really liked watching Royce Gracie in UFC one and do what he had done against much bigger people. And all of a sudden, this guy is really super technical, and he's got this technique, and people are like, oh, that guy's gonna kill him, and then he just gets his hands on you and, like a boa constrictor, just works it.
Tom Rowland: And so I was sure you were gonna win the Royce Gracie fight, but still, there was a lot of lead up to that. Like, wow.
Matt Hughes: You had no doubt I was gonna win?
Tom Rowland: I don't think — no. You were in your prime, man. You were on a roll, and I was pretty sure you're gonna win.
Matt Hughes: There's so many people that would disagree with you.
Tom Rowland: Well, I know. And that's what made that fight so awesome. Is this, like, the total jiu-jitsu — you're coming from this lineage of jiu-jitsu, or this wrestler that doesn't even have a black belt, but he's Matt Hughes. Like, who wins? And I think that's what made that fight so good, is that there was so much disagreement. You had your fans that were so behind you. And then there was this crossover of people that liked both of you and were very interested in who was gonna win that fight. I think that was one of the most interesting matchups that I saw. That fight wasn't as fun to watch as the Trigg two, but I think the lead up for me was there. What if this happens? What were your thoughts on that fight?
Matt Hughes: When we hit the ground, I didn't do anything for like thirty seconds because I thought he was gonna pull this magical move I've never seen or heard of before. And so I could have got the straight arm bar, but I knew he wouldn't tap, so I didn't want to wear myself out. So I just thought I'd catch him in something else. And I can remember hitting him in the head, and I could fit — because you don't fit anything when they get taped up. I could fit his head. I was hitting it with everything I had.
Tom Rowland: That was your prime. Do you? That was when you were…
Matt Hughes: Oh six? UFC 60?
Tom Rowland: UFC 60. Do you think that was your prime?
Matt Hughes: Probably. Yeah. Especially, I was in such a good mood. I don't care who was out there. I was gonna get my hand raised.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I like that fight. And then one of the most popular fights of all time is Hughes-Trigg two. We've already talked about that. And even Trigg one was a good fight. It was fun to watch because — I don't know. I didn't like the lead up to it because he was talking a lot, and you refused to. You always seem to refuse to talk much. Like, pre-fight talk.
Matt Hughes: I did my talking inside the octagon.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That was another reason why I like to watch your fights with the kids and watch the lead up with the kids. It's like, look. Do the talking on the mat. Do the talking when it counts. You don't necessarily need to be doing the talking beforehand, but I always liked that about you. So those were my favorite fights. What was your favorite fight of all time? You in it or somebody else?
Matt Hughes: I love watching Chuck fight. And why people chase him, I don't know. Chuck wants you to walk into him. My favorite fight, I thought, would probably be when I beat BJ. I just beat someone that beat me, and he had me in such a bad position before.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Matt Hughes: I like when I go through something rough and win.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that's when you're overcoming huge challenges. When you get beat by somebody like BJ and then you know there's going to be a rematch, that seems like it could be really tough to rebound off of.
Matt Hughes: I had such a big team around me. They had me mentally ready to go.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, BJ was a tough competitor. How come he never cut in the face? People would just hit him so hard, and he would never cut. I don't think I ever saw him cut. Did you ever cut him?
Matt Hughes: No.
Tom Rowland: Why is it that some people don't cut like that? I don't know. Just seems like he never cut.
Matt Hughes: He must have strong skin.
Tom Rowland: I don't wanna find out.
Matt Hughes: He's got that and being so limber.
Tom Rowland: He is incredibly limber, isn't he?
Matt Hughes: Pisses me off.
Tom Rowland: I mean, you get him in anything, and he just…
Matt Hughes: Gets right out. I really dislike that. I would grab his leg, and with everyone else, I take them down with it. He just moves around and is limber.
Tom Rowland: Do you think he works on that all the time, or is he just naturally…
Matt Hughes: I think he's just natural.
Tom Rowland: Wow. Well, lots of good fights, man. Really, it was a great pleasure to spend some time with you this time and just, you know, talk about these old fights. It was fun. But we'll do it again.
Matt Hughes: Sounds good. All these people need to realize I'm very thankful for them because they wrote my paycheck. Them giving their $40 went to me.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, they were glad to do it. You were a great champion and fun to watch.
Matt Hughes: Says you. Not everyone would.
Tom Rowland: Well, you had an army of fans that did, though.
Matt Hughes: What would Frank Trigg say?
Tom Rowland: I don't know what Frank Trigg would say. What would he say?
Matt Hughes: He couldn't say much because I could come back on him.
Tom Rowland: No chance. Yeah. I knew that. But that was his thing. He's like, I'm wrestler strong. I'm this and that. And he said he was stronger than Matt Hughes, and that's when I kind of thought, well…
Tom Rowland: Let me ask you this one last question. What do you say for kids that are in one sport year round? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Whether that's wrestling or jiu-jitsu or soccer or football or tennis, is it good for kids to be involved in one sport all year?
Matt Hughes: I would think they get burned out after some time, so give that kid a break and maybe even make him do something else because you don't want someone getting burned out. Maybe they have a bad coach at one time — that could mean a lot. I would just watch out with that. That's just my opinion.
Matt Hughes: So you can slap me afterwards and say that was what I wanted you to say.
Tom Rowland: I don't care what you say. I'm asking a question. That's about it. That's what I think too. I just don't really agree with the kids in one sport. I just think it creates injuries and burnout. I don't know that they're — I do see that they go to these summer tournaments, and they're getting a tremendous amount of experience, and they're getting really good really fast. But I think there's a lot of washout.
Matt Hughes: I agree with you. And it's just a matter of time before they get a bad coach or some injury. So just make sure they go to college doing it.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Alright. Well, let's go fishing again or go elk hunting or do something next year.
Matt Hughes: Only if I can use hand line.
Tom Rowland: Hand line. That's the next thing. Yes, sir. We'll do it. Alright, Matt Hughes. Thank you.
Matt Hughes: Thank you.
Tom Rowland: So glad to have Matt on the show. We got so many things going on right now. Got a new website going up, saltwaterexperience.com. All new kinds of stuff over there. You can see the podcast website, Tom Rowland Podcast, tomrowlandpodcast.com. I will check all of those emails and get back to you or take your suggestions on who I should track down for some guests. We have some awesome guests coming up. I'm really, really excited about the progress of the podcast. You guys have been so nice and helpful in all the nice emails you've been giving me. And really, that means more to me than you might know. Because sometimes I never know if anybody's listening to this, but it turns out that they are. And more and more people are tuning in every single week and going back and seeing some of the great guests that we've been able to pin down, and lots more coming. Lots more coming your way. So follow us on Instagram, Saltwater Experience, and you can follow me at Tom underscore Rowland, R-O-W-L-A-N-D, and I will see you on the interwebs.
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