Capt. Debbie Hanson: Award-Winning Fishing Writer & Conservation Advocate

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 594 with Capt. Debbie Hanson.

Introducing Capt. Debbie Hanson

Debbie Hanson: I'm Debbie Hanson, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.

Tom Rowland: Well, I'm excited for our conversation now that we got all the kinks somewhat worked out, I guess. How are you doing today?

Debbie Hanson: I'm doing good. It's the perfect day to talk fishing because it's rainy and cloudy, just a perfect day to be indoors, either tying flies, organizing tackle, or talking fishing.

Tom Rowland: How many days do you spend? Is it easier to pick the days, or count the days, that you spend inside versus outside in a year?

Debbie Hanson: It's probably easier to count the days I spend inside than the days I spend outside.

Tom Rowland: That's kind of what I thought, but you've got a lot going on. I checked out your website. You've got the writing, the blog, the radio show, your guiding. What all occupies your time? How do you spend your year?

Debbie Hanson: Oh my goodness. Well, just trying to keep the balance. Like you, when you're involved in diversifying yourself across so many different areas of the industry, it can be a challenge finding that balance some days. But the biggest chunk of my time right now is spent guiding, and then the radio show on ESPN here in Southwest Florida airs every Saturday morning. I also do some knot-tying and fly-tying clinics at Bass Pro the first Saturday of every month, so some education there too. And I blog once a week for Take Me Fishing and do a few freelance writing article assignments in between. Then I get out and do some scouting and homework so I'm prepped for my trips. That's pretty much the breakdown.

Tom Rowland: Nice. How'd you get into all of this?

A Grandfather's Influence and Falling in Love with Fishing

Debbie Hanson: It started with my grandfather when I was five. My grandparents had a lake house in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and since both my parents worked full time when I was young, every summer I'd go up to my grandparents' lake house and fish with my grandfather. I'd spend pretty much the entire summer with him, and those summers were something I always looked forward to. It's really the time I spent on the water with him that solidified my love for fishing, for the sport, and for continuing education.

I remember fishing with him and being out on that lake, and his knowledge of the fact that the largemouth bass were going to be on the north end of the lake around the lily pads, and the walleye were going to be closer to the center of the lake near the weed beds — it was fascinating. I remember lying stomach-down on the pier, hanging my head over the side, looking in the water, fascinated with the crayfish and the minnows and all the life in that water, and him teaching me so much about fishing and which lures to use under which conditions.

I remember he had me digging up earthworms when I was five, and my mom loves to tell the story about how I came home from preschool so excited because one of the teachers had brought in a jar of worms for a lesson on gardening — and I already knew all about worms because I'd been digging them up as bait with my grandfather. Those memories with him are some of the most cherished I have from growing up, and they really solidified my love of the outdoors and led me to where I am today.

Obviously I took a bit of a sidetrack — I went into the advertising industry after I graduated from college. Then both my parents unfortunately received a cancer diagnosis in pretty close time proximity to each other, and it really caused an awakening about my career and what I was doing with my life, and it took me down the path I'm on today.

The Awakening: Leaving Advertising for a Writing Career

Tom Rowland: What was that decision like? You have this awakening, and sometimes you have these events in your life that make you realize what's really important to you. I'm imagining that's what happened with your parents' diagnoses — you have this moment where you think, "I don't really like what I'm doing, and life seems kind of short right now." What was it like to decide to quit that job? Did you have aspirations of guiding, or what did you think you were going to do?

Debbie Hanson: I didn't have aspirations of guiding at the time, and it was really scary and intimidating. I knew I loved fishing, and I'd graduated with a degree in English and journalism, but I ended up working in the advertising profession as an account executive. I always wanted to be involved in writing and really enjoyed that. At the time, the internet was just becoming a big thing, and I was following people who were starting to blog about things they were passionate about. I saw that people were able to generate revenue through online ads, and I eventually went into selling online advertising myself. So I realized there might be a way for me to share my love, passion, and knowledge of fishing in the online space.

While still working full time, I started a fishing blog. One of the members of the marketing team at takemefishing.org, the Recreational Boating and Fishing Foundation, saw my blog and asked if I'd be interested in writing a weekly blog post for their site, since they were looking for female voices. So while still working full time, I started blogging for takemefishing.org, and that gave me an entry point into the industry — kind of a safety net. It made me realize I might actually be able to turn this into a profession. Once I had a contract and was writing for them regularly, other opportunities came through as a result, and eventually I was writing pretty much full time, so I quit my full-time job. That was still a really scary step to take.

Getting back to that awakening — I watched my parents work really hard at jobs they maybe didn't love, saving and saving for retirement. My dad was a blue-collar worker in heating and air conditioning, working really long hours, and my mom was in human resources. I saw them put so much time into their careers but not really get to take trips or do the things they loved, because they were so loyal and dedicated to their jobs. Then, before they were even able to get to retirement, I saw them go through these health challenges, and it was heartbreaking. It really caused me to reassess my values and my priorities for the future. I wanted the flexibility to be there for them if they needed me — to fly up to Chicago without having to clear it through an employer, to say, "I can write" or "I can shoot a knot-tying video from wherever I am" and still work, and have that balance and be able to spend time with them.

Tom Rowland: That's super cool. I love stories like that — that moment where you're following your passion as a side hustle, a little money starts coming in, then a bit more, and there's this balance with your full-time job until you feel comfortable taking the leap. What was that like for you? How close did the income have to be before you felt comfortable jumping?

Debbie Hanson: It didn't have to be close at all. I took about a fifty percent pay cut initially, but in my heart I knew it was the right thing to do. I knew that if I worked hard enough, asked the right people for advice, sought out mentors in the industry, and put my heart and soul into it, there was a way to be successful. It was nerve-wracking taking that leap, but it was one of the best things I ever did. I'd been working in the online advertising industry, making six figures, traveling a lot, buying a nice car and nice clothes. When I decided to start my own business and start writing full time, it came down to the core of who I was and what was really important, because all of a sudden you realize who's really in your life and what's really important in it.

When you take a pay cut like that and put in a lot of time without seeing much return right away, it can be disheartening to see who still stands behind you and who falls away. That was a huge reality check. A lot of people are there for the good times, but when it comes down to saying, "I can't go out to dinner, I've got to save, I need to hustle to write this blog post or this article," it becomes eye-opening. It can be really challenging, but when you get through that and see you've got the right people in your circle, it's so rewarding. I've been so lucky and grateful to have amazing mentors in this industry, and I know I made the right choice. I feel like my grandfather is with me every day.

Tom Rowland: Do you think he would be surprised today if he knew what you were doing?

Debbie Hanson: We actually lost him about four years ago, so he got to see the progression. There were many days I got to FaceTime with him and share some of the exciting things going on, so that was huge — that I got to share those experiences with him, and that he got to see some of it before he passed at 96, which is pretty amazing.

Tom Rowland: Good genes. What was his reaction when you first told him you were thinking about doing this? Was he part of that decision process?

Debbie Hanson: He definitely was. My grandpa was pretty stoic — he'd been in the Army Air Corps before it was the Air Force, and he was just a very strong, survival, do-what-you-gotta-do type of guy. He wasn't into the warm fuzzies as much, but he'd say, "You can do what you put your mind to." That's what I loved about our time on the water as kids. I have an older brother who's five years older than me, and my grandfather took both of us fishing — it was never a question of whether Debbie should be outdoors fishing or indoors playing dolls with her grandmother. He just took me out there and immersed me in it, taught me that if I wanted to fish, we had to go find bait and dig up worms. He never sheltered me or did things for me — he wanted to empower me with the tools and resources I needed. So in a lot of ways, I'm grateful I can give back to other people what he gave to me.

Getting Kids and Families into the Outdoors

Tom Rowland: I noticed part of your message is about empowering women in the outdoors, and I think that's awesome — we need more women in the outdoors. Given how your grandfather raised you, immersed in the outdoors without caring whether you were a girl or a boy, how do you see today's parents and kids doing with social media, games, and everything else? Are we doing a good job of getting young kids — particularly girls — into the outdoors?

Debbie Hanson: I think there's a lot we can improve on, but I think we're doing a pretty good job, and one of the silver linings of the pandemic has been seeing many more families get out on the water together. People have come together to realize how important the outdoors is for our mental health, how much we can learn about our environment and ecosystems, and how it bonds a family together. You know what it's like when you see someone in your family catch a trophy fish, or their first catch of a species — that experience almost bonds you together for life.

But it's still hard. This past year especially, I've seen so many parents struggling to manage kids and schoolwork from home with distance learning, while also trying to carve out time to decompress themselves. So it's been challenging all the way around. I think encouraging kids to spend time together as a family should always be at the core, because it's easy to just say, "go play a game on your phone." But especially here in Florida, with amazing weather and opportunities to explore everything the state offers, from freshwater to saltwater fishing to hiking, there's really no excuse — we just have to make the time and create that balance.

Tom Rowland: When I was a kid, I'd grab a fishing rod and walk out the door, and my parents were fine with me being down at the Tennessee river all day, even though I could have fallen in and been washed downstream. I don't know that parents today are as comfortable with that. And there's a challenge when a kid sees fishing on YouTube or TV and wants to go, but the parents don't fish themselves — they have no idea what to do. It seems like there should be programs to make it easier for those families to get started, like a club kids could get dropped off at as easily as they're handed a phone. What are your thoughts on solving that?

Debbie Hanson: I think a big part of it is doing it together as a family, because you're right — if you don't empower the parents with the knowledge, they can't get the kids on board. We were fortunate to have family members mentor us and get us on the water, and in most cases that has to come from someone in the family. I've seen fishing summer camps for kids, but even then, if the parents drop the kids off and don't fish themselves, the next time the kid wants to go fishing, the parent still doesn't have the tools to help.

Tom Rowland: I've talked to people who run some of those camps, and there are some great ones where kids actually learn the fundamentals — how to tie knots, that you don't need a giant hook to catch bluegill, where to get the gear — so they walk away empowered to go fishing on their own. But there's still that gap for families with no one to teach them. It's one thing to get a kid outdoors when fishing is already part of the family's life; it's another when a kid wants to fish but has no one to turn to.

Debbie Hanson: That's true. A lot of kids these days can go online and watch tutorials and teach themselves quite a bit, but there's still the power of community. It's the same for women getting out on the water as it is for families and kids — we're always more comfortable when someone else is going through the same learning process alongside us, when we can ask questions without feeling silly. Having resources like the clinics at Bass Pro, and meeting other anglers on the same part of the journey, and having events where families and kids can come together and create those connections, is so important.

Tom Rowland: It is. My message is: if you've got the knowledge, if you've ever caught a fish, pass it on. Take a kid — not just your own, but the kid down the street who's asked about fishing — bring them along one time. That could be the only introduction to fishing that family ever gets, and the parents come home amazed at how happy their kid is. So, pass it on. You've mentioned mentors a couple of times — who are some of the people who've had a big impact on your development and career?

Mentors in the Fishing Industry

Debbie Hanson: Oh my goodness — George Poveromo, Crazy Alberto Knie. I know we've got a mutual friend in Crazy Alberto.

Tom Rowland: I love George. He's a legend, and we had such a great podcast when I had him on. He tells great stories, and he's got plenty of them.

Debbie Hanson: Most definitely. A good friend of mine, Joe Mahler, who's a fly casting instructor here in Southwest Florida, has been a great mentor to me. And obviously my grandfather. Dan Blanton, another fly angler — he lives in California, but we've had several conversations on the phone and online, and he's been very supportive.

Tom Rowland: How did you get connected with Dan Blanton in California?

Debbie Hanson: My friend Joe Mahler shared a couple of Dan Blanton's fly patterns with me, and his Whistler fly pattern is actually what I used to catch a nine-and-a-half-pound largemouth bass. I was elated and wanted to know everything about the pattern and about Dan, so Joe made the introduction between us, and Dan and I have been connected ever since.

Tom Rowland: That's great — he's legendary. I used to follow all his writing; he's done some really great stuff. Usually, if you reach out to pretty much anybody in the fishing world, they're open and welcoming — very few people are hard to talk to. In fact, it's often the opposite: the bigger the name and the bigger the personality, the more welcoming they are to everyone. Someone like Lefty Kreh, probably the biggest personality the sport has ever had, wasn't just welcoming — he had an incredible memory. He'd remember your name even if he hadn't seen you in two or three years. Alberto's quite a character too.

Debbie Hanson: He really is. I've learned so much from him, and his passion and enthusiasm for the sport is hard to match. It takes a certain type of person to fish those non-human hours the way he does, and to think nothing of driving four, five, six hours to get on a hot bite. That's just what he does.

Chasing Clown Knife Fish with Crazy Alberto

Tom Rowland: One of the things I'm dying to do with him is catch a clown knife fish. Tell me about catching one with Alberto, because I want to know what I'm getting myself into — I know he grinds it out and puts in serious time and effort.

Debbie Hanson: Oh my gosh — first of all, if Alberto ever says a trip is "just a few hours," never believe him. Pack snacks, lunch, and drinks, because you might be out there for a week. The couple of times I've been out with him, we literally fished for twenty-four hours straight — no sleep, maybe a stop at McDonald's for chicken nuggets, but otherwise you're in it the whole time, rain or shine. I love that about him, because you're immersing yourself completely in fishing. With clown knife fish, they're primarily nocturnal, so they feed heavily in the evening, and most of the time you're catching them at dawn, dusk, or in low-light conditions. Everything he does is land-based — off a bridge or a small shoreline with rocks on either side.

The first time we went out, I missed my first one — it jumped, the line got snagged, and I lost it. The second time, I was standing on a bridge, he had the net ready, went to net it, and the fish dove straight under the net and broke the line. At that point it became my nemesis — I really had to catch one. It eventually happened, but it took a couple of tries. I ended up landing my first clown knife fish around three in the morning, and it meant so much more because of the work we'd put in.

I think sometimes when someone with little experience lands an amazing fish right away — like a first-timer who happens to catch a tarpon — you wonder if they really understand what it took.

Tom Rowland: Oh, there are thousands of people who don't understand what it's about. I've seen anglers practice all year to go permit fishing, come down, get plenty of shots, and never get one to eat — dedicated anglers who've fished with every guide and put in their time. Then the wind shifts slightly, conditions change, and the next day a total beginner who can barely cast twice the length of the rod hooks two permit on fly while you're still teaching them to cast. You just shake your head, because for the guy who put in years of work, that would have been a lifetime accomplishment. It's not that the beginner doesn't deserve it — they were there on the right day, and no matter how good an angler you are, when the conditions line up, your odds jump enormously. The other angler's journey just continues, and sometimes the person who got lucky has no idea what they just did.

Florida's Largemouth Bass and the Lake Wales Ridge

Tom Rowland: How about the largemouth bass — is the nine-and-a-half-pounder the biggest you've caught on fly?

Debbie Hanson: On fly, yes — nine and a half pounds is my biggest. I did catch a ten-pounder years ago on bait, while working on an article for Florida Game and Fish magazine, up fishing Lake Istokpoga with Captain Don Hatcher. It was still exciting, I'm not going to lie. I get excited about all species, and especially seeing people catch their first of a new species, but there's something really special to me about our Florida-strain largemouth bass, and it's one of the reasons I enjoy guiding freshwater. I guide out of a little fifteen-foot aluminum jon boat with an eight-horsepower Mercury tiller engine — nothing fancy, but in a lot of ways it reminds me of the boat I grew up fishing on with my grandfather. Seeing people experience those firsts, you're living that excitement through them.

A lot of people say they fish for largemouth bass up in Michigan or Wisconsin all the time, not realizing our Florida-strain largemouth is a different subspecies — it behaves differently and grows faster. We've got the Lake Wales Ridge here in Florida, a series of ancient sand islands that were the only part of the state above water during the ice age, and that's where our Florida-strain largemouth bass developed, along with other unique life forms like the Florida scrub jay. Most people don't realize that.

Tom Rowland: I didn't either. Tell me about that area — where is it?

Debbie Hanson: It's about a hundred-mile stretch running north to south around Lake Wales, and it was the only part of the state above water during the ice age. As a result, unique plants and animals developed there, and some are endemic to that specific ridge and found nowhere else in Florida.

Tom Rowland: That's super cool. How do we trace the largemouth bass back to that area?

Debbie Hanson: I visited the Florida Bass Conservation Center in Webster, Florida, which a lot of people don't know exists — it's also home to one of the state's largest fish hatcheries. FWC runs it, and if you call ahead, one of the biologists will walk you through and explain the genetic makeup of our Florida-strain largemouth bass. They have a team of geneticists focused on preserving the genetic integrity of the fish, and they've traced the genetic makeup of a largemouth bass down to the specific waterway it came from. At the hatchery, they have concrete raceways labeled by waterway — Lake Okeechobee, the Kissimmee Chain of Lakes, and so on — because the genetic makeup varies slightly by origin, and they try to keep that consistent with the region where the fish will be stocked.

The largemouth bass is America's most popular freshwater sport fish, available to almost everyone in some form, and it has all the qualities we like as sport fishermen — it'll eat all kinds of weird-looking lures, which makes lure companies happy, and it catches fishermen probably more than it catches fish.

Tom Rowland: How cool is it to catch a fish on some giant centipede-looking lure? I go through all these odd soft plastics trying to catch bass, and redfish love the same weird shapes — centipedes, things with legs, big frogs.

Debbie Hanson: To me that's the exciting part — figuring out their preferences during different times of year, under different conditions, in different waterways. Down here in Southwest Florida we see a fair number of fish in the five-to-six-pound range, but largemouth bass in the warmer parts of the state can suffer from what's called metabolic burnout — if the water stays above 80 degrees for too long, those fish have a shorter lifespan and don't reach the size they would in the center of the state. So if you're looking to catch a trophy fish, you generally want to head to the area around the Lake Wales Ridge, where most of the monster bass come from.

I've used Florida's TrophyCatch program as a research tool — it's a citizen science program through FWC that's been around twelve or thirteen years. Every time you catch a largemouth bass eight pounds or larger, you submit a photo of the fish on a scale along with information on where and how you caught it, and it goes into a database. You get a certificate and a Bass Pro gift card once your fish is approved, but the real value is the data it collects on which waterways are producing trophy bass, what the forage base and vegetation and habitat look like, and what needs to be done to protect those fisheries.

Conservation and Growth Pressures in Florida

Debbie Hanson: Conservation is such an important topic, especially with the crazy influx of people moving to the state, particularly over the past year. With the pandemic freeing up remote work, a lot of areas that haven't historically had heavy fishing pressure are going to see a lot more people moving in, and that's going to start to impact the fisheries and habitat we need to be mindful of.

Tom Rowland: How do you protect largemouth bass even more, given it's already primarily a catch-and-release fishery?

Debbie Hanson: I think a lot of it comes down to taking care of our waterways and being mindful of contaminants. Everybody has their own opinions on invasive vegetation, but here, fishing a lot of local lakes and canal systems, there's a lot of pesticide and fertilizer runoff from golf course communities. People move down and want the green grass they had up north, but that's not native Florida vegetation. So how can we be more sensitive about using native vegetation, watering less, fertilizing less, spraying fewer pesticides, and using more natural products as our communities keep growing? Those are all good questions we should be asking ourselves.

Tom Rowland: We talk more about saltwater fishing on this podcast, but an underlying theme is the work groups like Captains for Clean Water do — what happens when all that runoff enters the Gulf of Mexico or the Atlantic and fuels an unnatural algae bloom or makes a natural red tide much worse. It's obvious when you see dead fish on the beach, but what's not as obvious is that way upstream, how much fertilizer someone puts on their lawn has an impact. We all have a personal responsibility to ask those questions. When someone moves down from up north wanting green grass, they need to be educated in a friendly way, not with finger-pointing — just, "hey, here's one thing Florida folks are careful about." It's not always an easy conversation, and some people won't want to hear it, but every action has a reaction. If even half the people used half as much fertilizer, it would make a real difference.

Debbie Hanson: Absolutely — there's real personal responsibility there.

From Writing to Guiding Full Time

Tom Rowland: Tell me about the jump from writing to guiding. When did you decide you wanted to start taking people out, and what was the process like to get your captain's license?

Debbie Hanson: For freshwater guiding on non-navigable waterways, you technically don't need a captain's license, but I felt it was important to get one — anytime you're on the water with someone, you should already have first aid and CPR training anyway. My long-term goal is to eventually take people into the brackish rivers and creeks around here for juvenile tarpon or snook, so I was looking long term, and I always feel like the more knowledge you can absorb, the better. I love the writing side, and that's initially what got me into the fishing industry full time, but sitting behind a computer all day started to wear on me, and I realized I really missed my time on the water. I'd get out here and there, and my husband is also a saltwater guide, so we'd spend time on the water together. But ultimately I love putting all the pieces of the puzzle together, figuring it out, establishing patterns, and seeing other people get excited when the light bulb goes on for them — when they experience that first catch of a species they've been wanting to target, or get on the water for the first time and fall in love with it, and you're part of that process. It's incredibly rewarding.

My friend and mentor Joe Mahler is the one who first told me, "You really love taking people out — I see you taking your friends out all the time. Why don't you consider guiding?" He broke it down for me: I thought it would be expensive and complicated to get a boat and everything else set up, but once he laid out the actual costs — storage, fuel, trailer, the boat itself — it was a lot more approachable than I'd expected. So I got my boat and started taking friends out just for fun, to get the experience of guiding people and make sure I could put people on fish consistently before I started charging. Then I got my captain's license before jumping into guiding full speed. There are plenty of tough days where you have to pull every trick out of your hat to make it a successful day for your clients, but I love it and wouldn't trade it for anything. Now I've got that balance between time behind the computer and time on the water with my clients, showing them the beauty of what we do — being out there at sunrise, watching the sun come up over the water and the fish breaking the surface, and just knowing in your heart this is what I was meant to do.

Tom Rowland: Man, that's awesome. I don't know that we could end it any better than that — knowing in your heart that's where you're meant to be. There are more people like that these days than there used to be, but it used to be rare to run across someone who, in their heart, knew they were doing exactly what they were meant to do. A lot of fishing guides feel that way, and there's a lot of passion in this industry among the great ones. But there are other guides who feel trapped in it, and as far as the customer's experience goes, the difference between those two is like a polar shift — one is one of the best days of your life, and the other is kind of miserable. I love that you're clearly in that first camp, and that you took a real risk to get there.

Debbie Hanson: Well, I'm sure you can relate, Tom, with all your years on the water and everything you've experienced growing up fishing in Tennessee, guiding out in Yellowstone, and guiding in the Keys — you probably still feel like you're always learning.

Tom Rowland: Of course. Maybe even more now than before.

Lifelong Learning as an Angler

Debbie Hanson: I look up to you so much as an educator, and I'd like to think I'm one on some level too, but I think one of the most magical things about what we do is that no matter how much any of us think we know, there's always more to learn.

Tom Rowland: And it's cyclical. Someone might feel like they've got a place totally wired, but all you have to do is expand past your comfort zone — fish another body of water, fish with different people, at different times, for a different species — and suddenly it becomes clear there's more to learn. There are stretches where you feel like you've really got an area or a fish nailed, and then something happens and you realize you don't know anything, and you start the whole learning process over again with some new area, species, or technique. But right when you feel like you've got it wired is exactly when the real breakthrough happens, because of everything you've already learned.

Debbie Hanson: Completely. Just when I think I have a pattern figured out, something changes. For example, one of the waterways I fish now has lost a lot of its natural shoreline because so many more people are buying property down here, and that's forced me to change my fishing strategies, tactics, and presentations. Even down in the Keys, you probably see the same thing — more pressure means the fish get smarter, so you need to downsize your line, try more finesse presentations, and figure out what it takes to get bites under tougher conditions. I think last year NOAA recorded the warmest sea surface temperature in its recorded history, so what does that mean for the migratory behavior of these fish species, and how will that change things for us? There are so many nuances to weigh.

The rewarding part is when you put in the work and it doesn't happen right away — like with the clown knife fish — that grind, pushing through the challenging times, is what really builds appreciation. I feel like social media has pushed us toward instant gratification, and that's not the reality of fishing most of the time. Sure, every now and then you get a day like the guy who caught the permit because conditions were just right, but most of us know that's not the norm. You'll have some great days and some days where you really have to grind, and it's just pushing through, whether it's fishing or anything else in life that requires balance.

Tom Rowland: I like it. Do you have a bucket list fish — something you haven't caught yet that you'd go after immediately if you had the chance?

Debbie Hanson: The golden dorado. And I'd love a giant trevally. Definitely roosterfish too. I got to catch my first white marlin with George a couple of years ago, so that crossed one bucket-list species off the list, but there's always a few more — always that next quest, the next species you want to go after.

Tom Rowland: Have you ever been interested in world records?

Debbie Hanson: I did, actually. I worked on an article for BoatUS Magazine a few years back when they'd just opened up some world record divisions for women specifically, by line class and tippet class. I submitted a few records for the sake of the article and walking readers through the process — I went and fished for gar out in Texas and caught some that we submitted for line class records. It was more of a research project at the time, because I wanted women to feel like, "If she can do it, I can do it too, and here's the process." I'd like to get back into that more at some point, but it's about finding the time between everything else I'm juggling — you really have to do your research, figure out which records are attainable, study your target species, and figure out where you need to go and what you need to do to make it happen.

Tom Rowland: I've dabbled in records too. It's like if you catch jack crevalle all the time and it's no big deal, but then you look at the record book and realize if you caught one on two-pound line, it would only need to be so big — so instead of getting bored catching the same fish over and over, you try it on lighter tackle, and it opens up a whole new world you didn't know existed. Now you've got new knots to learn, a whole submission process to figure out — the same way a fly fisherman who starts tying their own flies discovers a whole new world of possibility. That's what I love about fishing — it's a never-ending learning process. If you get bored with what you're doing, you just change it up: learn to fly fish, learn to bass fish with a conventional reel, whatever it is. Like Lee Wulff said, the goal is to be a complete angler — proficient with a bait caster, a spinning rod, a fly rod, a spey rod, whatever you hand me. If I see something like a tenkara rod, I figure I probably need to learn that too. Each of those things opens up a whole new opportunity for learning, and it seems like you're on the same path.

Debbie Hanson: Definitely. It's great to have those goals, because it can take you down a rabbit hole of learning you didn't plan on, but you gain so much knowledge and information along the way. That's one of the best things about what we do — you can never know it all, and there's always more you can do to expand your knowledge and become a more complete angler. The bait caster is something I'm still working on — give me a spinning rod or a fly rod and I do fine, but the bait caster still needs work.

Tom Rowland: When you watch professional bass fishermen with a bait caster, the skill is honestly on a level equal to, maybe even higher than, the best fly fishermen — because a pro bass angler makes far more casts over a career than a fly fisherman ever could. It's just physics: if you're flipping, you can do it over and over much faster than you can strip in line and make another fly cast. Those guys fish year-round and are die-hard practicers — flipping into cups in the garage every day, the way an archer might shoot fifty arrows a day. That repetition takes the skill to another level, since they're casting thousands more times in their lives than any fly fisherman. And if you're fishing professional tournaments, your livelihood depends on it — you watch them and it looks effortless, like any master of a craft, whether that's martial arts, tennis, or fly casting. Put it in your own hand and you'll get an instant birds nest. I practice bait casters at home with the same drills I've seen the pros use, by myself where nobody can watch, and you get a little better over time. There's a lot of skill in it.

Debbie Hanson: There is. I've been practicing with a bait caster at home too, but I need to do it even more — I've been focused on fly fishing the past couple of years, so now I need to get on my pond behind the house and really focus on the bait caster for a while. The more versatile you can be, the better off you are, and the more rewarding it is, because you're always working on something different.

Tom Rowland: That's right — keeps it fresh and entertaining all the time.

Where to Find Capt. Debbie Hanson

Tom Rowland: I really appreciate your time today, and we're lucky we caught it on a windy, rough day when you weren't out fighting the weather. It's been great to talk to you and get to know you. How do people read your stuff, go fishing with you, and connect with you?

Debbie Hanson: They can connect with me on Instagram — I'm @shefishes2, and my website is shefishes2.com. Or they can just call me at (239) 233-4930, and I'd be happy to get them out on the water. We've got a lot of exciting places to explore here in Southwest Florida, and I love introducing people to our freshwater fisheries. I'm grateful to all the people who have been there for me and with me along the way.

Tom Rowland: Alright, well, great — give her a call and go fishing. Thanks, Debbie.

Debbie Hanson: Thank you, Tom.