Captain Joe Gonzalez - Fishing Miami and Biscayne Bay Since 1987

This transcript was generated from the original episode audio. It is presented verbatim with speaker labels, lightly formatted for readability. Sponsor pre-roll messages have been omitted.

You Either Fish or You Cut Bait

Joe Gonzalez: It started where it was Saturdays and Sundays, and then it turned into Saturdays, Sundays, and one day during the week. And then it turned into Saturdays, Sundays, and two days during the week, and that's when my dad and I had a falling out. And, you know, I must also mention that a lot of times that second day, I was going fishing on my own because I started loving it so much. And he kinda caught on, and he said, well, look. You either fish or you caught bait. And I said, you know what, dad? I'm going fishing. And I left, and at that moment, he wasn't very happy of my, situation or or or or or my decision is what I should be saying. But I'll tell you what, today, my dad is my biggest fan. My dad is, is, 85 years old today, and we talk daily, and he's my biggest fan today. He really is. Hey. This is Captain Joe Gonzalez, and this is the Tom Rowland podcast.

Introducing a Biscayne Bay Legend

Tom Rowland: Oftentimes, you hear about someone in the in your own industry. In my industry, that's in the fishing industry. But in your own industry, that may be whatever. Whatever it is that you make your living doing, I'm sure that there are legends in that particular field. In the fishing industry, there are plenty of legends, and this one person is someone that I have heard about for a long time. When I first started guiding, this guy was already well established, and I heard many things about this gentleman. All good. I always wanted to meet him, never have. This is one of the few people so far that I'm doing a podcast with that I had just never met in person, but I certainly felt as though I knew him because I had heard so many good things about him. And I was not disappointed, and I don't think you're gonna be either. So stand by for my great conversation with my new friend, Captain Joe Gonzalez of Biscayne Bay.

Growing Up Fishing Miami, Key Largo, and Bimini

Joe Gonzalez: Alright.

Tom Rowland: We're live. We're live with a legend, Captain Joe Gonzalez, Miami, sitting in your house. Where where are we right now? Because I don't know Miami.

Joe Gonzalez: Well, Tom, we're right in Old Miami. We're just east I'm sorry, just west of Downtown Miami where Miami pretty much originated once people started to immigrate here. Prior to, this being a populated area, it was a little bit, east of here. Right near the river is where civilization kinda started in the Miami area.

Tom Rowland: And so where did you grow up?

Joe Gonzalez: I grew up right here in Miami. I was born and raised in Miami.

Tom Rowland: And in this area like I'm Actually,

Joe Gonzalez: a little bit further west from here, but, I've been in this Little Havana area for, oh, about thirty two years now. I met my lovely wife and kinda moved into the area. We bought this house, and so it goes that you know, just Right on. Life right here.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So you're, when you started, when you were growing up here, did you fish always?

Joe Gonzalez: I did. I did. I actually, my dad always had time to take me fishing. I, my dad is still alive, and I spent a lot of time in the Key Largo area, spent some time, Venetian Shores in the Islamorada area. We did a lot of going back and forth to Bimini. He always had boats. And, you know, I remember as a kid going to Bimini, probably in the, late sixties, early seventies, and it wasn't uncommon to daily at the Big Game Fishing Club to see these big tuna come in. They used to troll for those big tuna.

Tom Rowland: Bluefin. Right?

Joe Gonzalez: Blue big bluefin. That's correct. And which they don't have that anymore. And all of that kinda, I guess, impressed me as a kid, and I took a passion for, for fishing. And as a matter of fact, I remember when they bring in those bluefin tuna, they bring them in, and the indigenous people from the town would come out with these big butcher knives. They'd chunk them out, and they'd give it away. They'd give away like a big slab. And I I remember fishing at the dock there off my dad's boat or walking around the dock and using shrimp and using pilchards and things like that. And one day, they gave us the big chunk of tuna, went ahead and took tuna, and I what I did was I cut it into small pieces, started fishing with the tuna on the hook, and it outfished everything, like, five to one. What happens is that after they cut those tuna, they would throw the carcasses over, and the mangrove snapper would I guess they were raised on the bluefin tuna, and they loved that.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Joe Gonzalez: And and and let's think about what a bluefin tuna is worth today.

Tom Rowland: I know. You're fishing with a $100 piece of bait.

Joe Gonzalez: There you go. Nice piece of sashimi. That's correct.

Tom Rowland: The first time I ever heard that story about the bluefin in The Bahamas do you know Tom Pierce? He's a old time Key West guy.

Joe Gonzalez: I know the name. I know the name.

Tom Rowland: He's, he's been doing it for a long time. And he's done about everything you can do in the fishing industry like yourself. He's been down in The Bahamas, and he was down there, I don't know if it was when he was a kid or just when he was a young man. But he said that they would have those tournaments like that, and they would bring the bluefin in. They would hang them up, weigh them, and then they would tie them all by the tail, all of the fish together by the tail, and then drag them out and sink them, those bluefin tuna. Like, nobody thought that they were a fish fish. Anything.

Joe Gonzalez: That's correct. And they kinda out they're outfished that. As a matter of fact, they are starting to fish for them now some. They're trying to kind of there's some of them come through still, but that had to be pretty cool, running up in front of a school of bluefin tuna, trying to put your bait out in front of them and watching a take that way.

Tom Rowland: Right. I know. I mean, they that would be that would be pretty awesome. I mean, that is that is probably the greatest fish in the ocean. I mean, really, like, you're, like, you're talking about 800 pound bluefin tuna, the things the size of a car.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. We didn't they don't come through there anymore like they used to. I know they catch them up north and they catch them, you know, in the Northeast and stuff, but we don't see those on the Bahamian Bank much or they don't anyway. I shouldn't say we.

Tom Rowland: Right. There

Joe Gonzalez: is no I in we.

Taking the Plunge: From the Family Business to Full-Time Guide

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So your time is mostly is mostly spent in Biscayne Bay?

Joe Gonzalez: Primarily Biscayne Bay. I, I did when I started, I started, Tom, in '87, and I did it part time from '87 to '91. And in '91, I went ahead and took the plunge and started doing it full time.

Tom Rowland: So I I'm always interested in that. I mean, we even were talking before the podcast started about different you know, it's always taken the plunge. Like, you started in '8 1987. And so what happens to where you kinda decide, I think that I can do this?

Joe Gonzalez: Exactly how it happened. That's a great question. I always talk about that with with others. I was working for dad, and, my dad's in the, lighting industry. And he was back then primarily manufacturing, and now it's become everything gets done overseas. But, anyway, I was working for dad running the shipping department and doing some purchasing and stuff, and I was there with him for, oh, about eight years. And, I took a passion for fishing and the fly fishing here in the bay, and some in The Keys. We did some in Key Largo, some in in The Bahamas. I did some bone fishing in The Bahamas as well. But, it started where it was weekends, Saturdays and Sundays. And back then, there was, oh, probably about five guides, which I'll mention later if you want Yeah. Out of out of Crandon Marina here out of Key Biscayne. But, it started where it was Saturdays and Sundays, and then it turned into Saturdays, Sundays, and one day during the week. And then it turned into Saturday, Sundays, and two days during the week, and that's when my dad and I had a falling out. And, you know, I must also mention that a lot of times that second day, I was going fishing on my own because I started loving it so much. And he kinda caught on, and he said, well, look. You either fish or you cut bait. And I said, you know what, dad? I'm going fishing. And I left. And at that moment, he wasn't very happy of my, situation or or or or or my decision is what I should be saying. But I'll tell you what. Today, my dad is my biggest fan. My dad is, 85 years old today, and we talk daily. And he's my biggest fan today.

Tom Rowland: He really nice to know. So what was it what was the other alternative? I mean, he wasn't happy with you going and and being a fisherman.

Joe Gonzalez: He wanted me to stay in the business, in the family business. And, you know, back then, my dad and I, I was young, and we didn't see eye to eye eye to eye. I had I have two other brothers, which were in the business as well. And, you know, when you bring a lot of people into a family business, a lot of issues arise. And, I figured out quickly that that's not the route I wanted to take. I wanted to be my own person and have my independence. It allowed me to, live into a lifestyle that I always wanted to have. I you know, as a child or as a kid, I never really wanted to have a nine to five. My my dream was to go to The Keys, buy a motel, and run a motel, and hang out in shorts and flip flops, which never really happened. But that was that was my my dream. You know?

Tom Rowland: And and that that materialized into into a fishing career.

Joe Gonzalez: That's correct.

First Trips, Frank Mathers, and the Crandon Marina Guides

Tom Rowland: So when you first are starting in 1987, did you know that shallow water fishing is what you wanted to do? Oh, yeah.

Joe Gonzalez: I I was already shallow water fishing, and, you know, the first trip I ever had, was a guy called Frank Mathers. And Frank Mathers was a scientist from Woods Hole, Massachusetts. K. He's the first guy to ever tag fish. And it just so happens that the fish he was tagging were bluefin tuna. Frank passed away, but, the guy who gave me that trip was a guy called John Donnell. I don't know if you know John.

Tom Rowland: I don't know him personally, but I do know certainly know of him.

Joe Gonzalez: John owned a shop here in, up here in Fort Lauderdale. He owned it with another fellow called Kenny, Colette. And, John actually gave me my first fly line, and John knew that I fished on the bridges around Julia Tuttle, 79th Street Causeway, the MacArthur. And he used to do a lot of night fishing for snook and tarpon. And, you know, back then, which is not something that we see too much. We well, that's kind of a dying thing. There was a lot of fishing clubs back then. There was the Rod and Reel Club, Tropical Anglers, South Florida Anglers, and there was a big, what's the word, following for gold badge or red badge. You had to earn your badges.

Tom Rowland: Sort of master angler badge.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. That's correct. And and one of the requirements for the Rod and Reel Club was having a, tarpon on what they called fly light. So the tarpon had to be over 24 inches, and you couldn't use but 12 pound bite tippet. You couldn't bite use a a bite tip it. It had to be straight 12. Wow. So the way to do it was to fish for for for smaller tarpon, which we had plenty of on the bridges right off the lights feeding on shrimp. And since John knew that that's that was what I was doing, he hooked me up with Frank Mathers. I took Frank Mathers out. And at that time, Frank Mathers was in his seventies already, mid seventies or so. And I already I had a flats boat. And what we would do is we'd go out, We'd climb on the pilings, tie the boat up, climb I'd have Frank climb on the pilings, and we'd fish the shadow lines up there. At 70. Up there. That's correct. That's 70. Well, it wasn't that difficult. I mean, the pilings weren't that high, but, you know, you you figure you have the piling and there's, like, a slab. So we'd climb the slabs, and you see the tarpon cruising up and down the shadow line, and you'd pitch it. You know, I never was able to get Frank his tarpon.

Tom Rowland: Oh.

Joe Gonzalez: I never I don't know if he ever got it. I never he fished with me later through the years and stuff, but, I'll tell you what. That old man had a dirty mouth. He really did. We'd lose a fish, and he'd start cursing and stuff like that. But but it it it brings me back to when I started. And I think back then, it was like a half day trip. I think it was a $125, $150, or something like that, you know, for for for a four hour night trip. But it was a start for me, and that's how I started little by slowly. And then, you know, when I started boat fishing out here out at Crandon, there was five guys. There was Bill Curtis. There was Frank Aristo. There was Bob Branham. There was Kenny Collette, and there was another guy called Jerry Gary. And then there were other guys, but those are kind of the five guys that would do it daily. And little by little, they kinda took a liking to me. And little by little, I started getting some of their overflow. And, you know, I kinda started. And one of the things, Frank passed away, actually. It's only Bill. Bob is still around. I haven't heard of Jerry Gary, and Kenny passed away as well. It's a shame. I didn't know that. Kenny passed away, oh, oh, maybe about five years, six years. Maybe a little more than that. Yeah. But, anyway, I remember that they'd leave at 07:30 in the morning. And by 03:30 in the afternoon, everybody was back. It was sort of a, you know and then the shop steward was Frank Caristo, and I'd stay an extra forty five minutes, an hour. And I remember Frank getting on my case about staying later than everyone else. But, you know, what happens is that when you're young like that, you're not just out there for the client. You're wanting to learn, and you're wanting to because I'm passionate. I'm still passionate about what I do, and I wanna learn as much as I can. So, you know, I they would they'd give me a hard time about that, but it was funny. That's just food for thought. You know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that's, I think at any time you're working in a marina setting, even even today, like, you know, don't don't don't rock the boat. Like, you don't need to be going staying out too long. You don't need to be going too early. You know, you know, I've seen that in a lot of different marina situations. I guess, you know, the trailer guides are a little different. Like, you're a little more on your own program, but, you know, you're the one guy's gone, and you're in a party of of a bunch of people.

Joe Gonzalez: Right. I understand. You can't you

Tom Rowland: can't be bringing back, you know, somebody back two hours late.

Joe Gonzalez: No. You're right. You're right. I see that. I understand. I understand. And we we get some of that here. We get some of that. But, yeah, I I am still passionate about about the fishing.

Breaking the Code: The Five Purposes of Fish

Joe Gonzalez: And, you know, day in, day out, I try to what they call break the code, Tom. You know what I mean by breaking the code? Well, I wanna hear. Okay.

Tom Rowland: I think I do, but I wanna hear.

Joe Gonzalez: Test you. How's that? I'm gonna I know this is your podcast, but I'm gonna test test test you. And people make fun of me when I do it. And and we're gonna talk about it because I know this is very interesting to me, and this is what I use day in, day out. Okay? Fish have five major purposes in life. Five. Can you help me name them, Tom? Eat feeding. Evade predation. Avoid predation. That's the avoiding predation Yeah. Topic.

Tom Rowland: Right? Reproduce.

Joe Gonzalez: Spawning. That's correct. Poop. Well, that's kinda they're gonna poop regardless. Yeah. They're yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. They have to I guess in avoiding predation, they have to that would also be schooling and migrating and moving in order to avoid predation, but maybe

Joe Gonzalez: part you know, a lot of these things, there's five major points. And a lot of these things that you're gonna comment on are gonna be a derivative of those five.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Joe Gonzalez: So you have feeding, spawning, avoiding predation. Tom, what happens when it gets too cold? What happens when it gets too hot? Mhmm. They adjust to condition. I used to say acclimate to conditions, but, no, they adjust to conditions.

Tom Rowland: Right. Right.

Joe Gonzalez: Okay? Now, a lot of these collaborate with each other also. So feeding, spawning, avoiding predation, adjusting to conditions, and fish also do something else. What happens when you're out fishing, and you go red fishing and you know you're in the red fish because you're poling and you're blowing them out Right. And you're blowing what do you think those fish are doing?

Tom Rowland: They have to rest.

Joe Gonzalez: They're resting. Fish rest. All fish rest. Yeah. Whether you're a pelagic or you're a coastal fish, an inshore fish, fish when tarpon are laid up, they're kinda resting. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you can't get what we call a reaction bite if you make the right presentation. You find a school of bonefish sometimes resting. I'm sure you've seen permit resting. I'm sure you've seen well, a lot of times here in the bay, I'll see bonefish resting in places where they are avoiding predation at the same time.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Joe Gonzalez: They're sitting on these types of bottoms that have sea fans, baskets, bunch of those gorgonian types sea fans and stuff. And the reason they sit on those spots is that if a shark comes in on them, they can they have obstacles, easy in and outs to get out of. Right. You know? And a lot of times, when they're resting in these places, they're also they've adjusted to they're they're sitting there, and instead of exerting too much energy, they rather sit and wait until the conditions are proper for them to feel.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like the for the tide to start moving the way that they need it or whatever.

Joe Gonzalez: Right. Right. Now if there's a thermal drop, sometimes they'll sit in these places or they'll they'll move off a little bit, but they won't exert too much. They it's not one of those days where they're moving from point a to point b Right. To feed and stuff like that.

Tom Rowland: And I'm sure you can up.

Joe Gonzalez: You can yeah. Exactly. They're huddled up. You can relate to that. Now we had the discussion the other days, and we were talking about tuna a little while ago. How would tuna rest? I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I guess they would swim into the current or pelagic. Because when you're out there and you're dolphin fishing or you're flying a kite for sailfish and the bite's not on not on, do you think it's that the fish that you're not in the fish, or, you know, could it be that the fish are in the area, but they're not feeding? That's a very good possibility.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Absolutely. Yes.

Joe Gonzalez: And and the same is applicable with dolphin. For now, we had a discussion. I had a discussion with a friend of mine on the boat the other day. She does a lot of offshore fishing, and we were trying to figure out tuna. Does tuna constantly have to be moving? Right?

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Well, they they constantly need to be swimming.

Joe Gonzalez: Sweat. Right.

Tom Rowland: They don't necessarily need to be moving Well, okay. Point a to point b. And the re what I'm saying about that is, like, we were sword fishing recently, and I'm looking at the at the GPS. And we are the boat is in gear. Right? And we basically are almost throwing awake. But the Gulf Stream is so strong Right. That we're actually going fast like this

Joe Gonzalez: But you're not covering up this way. You're not covering it.

Tom Rowland: We're actually moving backwards. And you get somebody there that has never seen that before, and you're like, looks like we're going pretty fast. Right? And they're they're like, yeah. I mean, we're going, like, six miles an hour.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. But there's an eight knot current.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. But look. You're going actually going backwards. So that I would say that because the tuna could maybe just be swimming there, and they're sliding backwards, but they're barely swimming enough to

Joe Gonzalez: get Exactly. To get to have oxygen coming in through their through yep.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So do you base all of your decisions on those five factors?

Joe Gonzalez: Well, you know, that's a great question because a lot of times I do. And, you know, in the bay here and I use these five factors a lot, Tom, in the wintertime now. When it gets cold here in the bay, you know, the bone fishing here in Biscayne Bay, unlike many other parts up and down the Keys or in The Bahamas, we have pretty good and it's not the boast about the bay or anything like that. But our wintertime bone fishing, for some reason, has always been really, really good. There's I don't know if it's because the Gulf Stream is close or what it is, but in the wintertime I love bonefishing in the wintertime here because if it gets really cold, it gets easier for me to find them because it takes a lot of the guesswork out. What it does is I know where they're not gonna be. Mhmm. Now I'm gonna go to places where they should be. You you know? Yeah. And and and it's the same thing with you when you're tarpon fishing. When you're tarpon fishing in The Gulf or if you're in Florida Bay. You know, a lot of time as a guide, you know what the fish are gonna do before even the fish know what they're gonna do. Does does does that make sense?

Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, we have the ability to look at electronic, weather reports, radar. You can see that it's there's a front coming in. You can see that the temperature is about to drop ten, twelve degrees. You know that they're going to be here today, but there is no chance they're gonna be here tomorrow. And where will they be? You know? So you kinda do I don't know if we know it before the fish because I kinda feel

Joe Gonzalez: like what I'm talking about. You get that sixth sense. Yeah. And and that's what I'm talking about, breaking the code. Mhmm. I love breaking the code daily. When I break the code, I feel as I've been successful. Even if we don't catch any Right. At least I've broken the code. And I think but you know what's funny, Tom, is that they they can fool you. But you you know what I'm saying? I mean, from one day to the next, you think you've got it down packed, and they come around and they're not there. Okay. So where are they? Where do they go? You know? And there are days when fish just don't move. There's times when, you know, they feed at night. They don't come in shore. They don't come in. You know? It used to be a lot easier. I think there used to be more fish. Not that there's not fish anymore, but you will always talk about how it used to be. Right. It used to be easier for boatfish here in the bay. The permit fishing, well, it kinda the permit fishing is a seasonal thing. So a lot of times, that fishery is a cyclical. It goes in cycle just as in tarpon. Right? You can have a really good permit year. But bonefish, yes, you can have cycles. But for the most part, bonefish really don't migrate really long distances from what studies have shown.

Bonefish Science: Tagging and Acoustic Telemetry

Tom Rowland: Right. Now you're you're, that the kind of, information from those studies, from tagging and other studies has become more available in the last, you know, few years or whatever.

Joe Gonzalez: Absolutely. How

Tom Rowland: much have you learned from from tagging and

Joe Gonzalez: the studies? I was very instrumental in helping a guy called Jerry Ault, doctor Jerry Ault. And this was before Bonefish Tarpon Trust really got big. You he was Jerry was University of Miami, and we did a lot of bonefish acoustic telemetry. We did tagging and but what we've learned what we learned is that the average size bonefish here in the bay was 23 inches to the fork. K. I mean, 23 inch bonefish is probably, I'm gonna say, four and a half, five pounds depending on girth. But that was the cookie cutter size fish. And I'm gonna say today, it probably remains right around there, maybe a little bit less, because we did lose a lot of fish. We also learned that smaller fish, as far as bonefish, are very loyal to their spots. They come back to the same spots day in, day out.

Tom Rowland: Now for somebody that doesn't know what this is, explain acoustic telemetry studies.

Joe Gonzalez: Well, acoustic telemetry, what it is is they'll, be out in the field, you catch a fish, and they'll take that fish, and they will put them in a tank and sedate the fish. They'll take the fish, turn them upside down, and they make an incision right behind his I guess, what well, I'm trying to think. His midsection. Mhmm. Okay? So they make an incision, and they put a transmitter about the size of a double a battery I'm sorry, triple a battery. They insert it. They sew the fish up, and then they put, like, antibiotic on it. They turn the fish over, lay them in that in in another tank, let them recuperate, and fifteen minutes, twenty minutes later, the fish is released and on his way. Now, you know, Tom, I would assume that through the years as we did some of that, there had to be some type of mortality rate. Okay? But there was also a good of information gathered. And after they put that transmitter on the fish, they have these they put these fences out. So you figure they put, a fence. What I mean by a fence, they put a receiver in one spot here off a point. A 100 yards out, they put another one. Another 100 yards out, they put another one. Now you move down the lateral line a little further, the longitude line, and you put another fence. So this way, they can detect when the fish comes back to the same area. Mhmm. And that's what they found is that smaller fish are much loyal to spots than bigger fish. Bigger fish tend and, I mean, it's common sense. Bigger fish are gonna make longer movements day in, day out. But it's really neat that what I have come to figure out is that basic spots are basic spots, Tom. If basic spots aren't working, usually, fancy is not gonna work either. I mean, you tell me. What do you think?

Tom Rowland: No. I mean, you know you know, that I I agree with you. Like, on a day where where everything is happening, the little fish spots, the basic spots, they ought to be happening. The big fish spots ought to be happening. The spots where you rarely see them, that's happening too. But on the tough days, there are often only certain spots that they're gonna yeah. The fancy stuff, like, the places where you see that's where the world record was caught once. And I've been there a whole bunch of times, and I've only seen three fish there ever. And they've always been really big, but it's I mean, is it a good spot? Well, the world record was caught there. But

Joe Gonzalez: Doesn't necessarily mean fancy. Right. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a day in, day out. Exactly. You know? And and that's what happens is that there's so many of us fishing today, not just professionals, but anglers as well. And there's only so many spots, Tom. When you're hammering a spot day in, day out, as you know, the fish get smart. And then we condition them. We condition them to get smarter. We condition them to come in when it's nighttime or at dusk, or they try to avoid predation because we're predation as well. Don't you agree?

Tom Rowland: Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. Even if they don't associate you with predation, like getting caught, you're a shadow. You're you're a buzz that you're something. You you know, like a a bird is is predation. Even if they don't ever get hit by a bird, they have like, that's that's wired into their DNA. Watch out for things above, you know, a a fly line. It's all the same. That's a bird to them. That's something that is going to eat them from above. And it I don't ever think that they think, oh, that's a fisherman. Like, that's just something that's wired into them

Joe Gonzalez: that Yep. That they need to avoid

Tom Rowland: and get for that.

Sharks, Turtles, and How Nature Works Together

Joe Gonzalez: Now here's one thing that I've seen through the years, Tom, and I'm assuming you've seen it as well if you're guiding, that sharks are kind of the barometer of what's going on or what's not going on. Don't you agree?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've always I always think, you know, action brings more action. I like I like that offshore. I like that inshore. I like to pull into a spot, and there's life. Sea life. Yep. There's rays. Yep. There are box fish. There are bonnet sharks. There's lemon sharks. There's everything.

Joe Gonzalez: Let me ask you. Have you ever noticed a correlation between turtles and permit?

Tom Rowland: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%.

Joe Gonzalez: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a 100%. Sure. Yes, sir.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And and also, you know, like in the Marquesas, which is an area that's rich in permit both offshore and inshore, if you're running out there in the deeper water, you see these turtle turds, which look like a human poop in the water. And it's floating floating on the surface? And you see them, like, all over. And and I I just find that's interesting because for years, I was like, what is this? These guys off these shrimp boats or what is going on

Joe Gonzalez: out here? A turtle tur Yeah. You know what I'm gonna start looking at? Turtle turds though.

Tom Rowland: Well, it looks like, I mean, it's obviously from a big turtle because it looks like a full grown person poop. And I kept asking people what what is that? Is that what I think it is? Is that some kind of poop? And my friend that was a commercial fisherman, and he he was just he did all kinds of commercial fishing, and he said, yeah. That's turtles.

Joe Gonzalez: 100%.

Tom Rowland: That's so cool. And and that those areas where I've seen the most turtles hold perms. Have the most permit. That's and and, you know but then on the inshore side, you're not seeing as many of those large turtles as you are

Joe Gonzalez: offshore Yeah. Offshore. But, you know, another thing that I noticed as a fishing guide is, a lot of times there's islands. We have the Raggots out here, and we have Elliott, and there's Adams Key. And there's there are places where nature works together, Tom. I'll see places where I'll go, and there are places that are lined up with cormorants. They may have heron. So there's birdlife. And as soon and I know there's fish in that area because I fish these spots quite often. And it's as if the birds, when you pull in and you start pulling to the birds take off, they're sending out a signal. Mhmm. You know, I don't know if it's if it's if they do it deliberately, but when the bird jumps, fish know that something's going on. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's how nature works together that that the birds can alarm the some the fish that someone's coming. Sure.

Tom Rowland: I always like to you know, in in a certain situation of, like, pulling for laid up tarpon or whatever, and you're pulling in there, and there's a tarpon laying there. You make a cast at it, and it does one of these numbers where it just kind of turns away from you and it's not interested at all and it just doesn't want to be bothered. Well, you try to pull around that fish and make the right shot. And, again, it just kinda does the same thing again. And so there's the tendency to just keep casting at that thing until that tarpon takes off.

Joe Gonzalez: And then you get the dominant fish.

Tom Rowland: You've allowed that fish to to contaminate all of the fish in front of them by sending off the signal

Joe Gonzalez: of That's right.

Tom Rowland: Well, I was a little bit uncomfortable before, and that's why I was turning. And maybe they can sense that too. But now it's a full on run for your life. Yep. And so every other fish is like

Joe Gonzalez: the doggo effect. That's what I call the doggo effect. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Discipline on the Flats and Preparing to Succeed

Tom Rowland: And and it takes a lot of discipline to, you know, especially on the client end when you've been looking for fish for three hours and you haven't found one. Now you get into an area where there are some, and they make the cast, and it's like, okay. Well, that one's done. I know you don't do this every day, but that fish is done. Yep. Let's keep moving, and I'm just gonna pull quietly around this fish and leave it sitting there.

Joe Gonzalez: Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. So you don't

Tom Rowland: pull a lot

Joe Gonzalez: of discipline. You don't booger the area. Exactly. I know. I gotcha. I gotcha.

Tom Rowland: But that is you know, I I mean and I think that that's, you know, that goes into into the way that you approach the spot, and it goes into the the way that you you pull the spot and how loud you're being and everything. I think it all has an effect on what you're trying to do and how effective you are. And some people that I've had on this podcast believe, you know, in making sure that the prop's out of the water because, you know, it's it's rotating and shining and flashing and doing all this stuff, and and they absolutely the prop has to be completely out of the water because, you know, I mean, it would it's like a mirror.

Joe Gonzalez: It is. It is. That's kind of a

Tom Rowland: It is. Not not natural thing. But, you know, I mean, I think I think it's I've always kinda thought that the success in fishing and in fishing tournaments or something like that, the people that are winning and doing really well consistently aren't necessarily doing one thing that is just better.

Joe Gonzalez: It's a combination of things. It's a whole

Tom Rowland: bunch of one percent.

Joe Gonzalez: It's yep. That add up

Tom Rowland: to, sometimes a 60 or 70% advantage because, you know, the hooks are perfect. The knots are perfect.

Joe Gonzalez: Prepare to succeed. Right. They prepare to succeed. Right.

Tom Rowland: How do you prepare to succeed? Stumped you. Well, wait. No. No. Wait a minute.

Joe Gonzalez: Now I gotta think about that. I gotta think about you know, Tom, it seems to me that when I rig up the night before and I prepare to succeed, I usually have a good day. I could take a rod that I fish today, maybe a little scuffed up, might have cast it a few times, might have caught a fish or two, but that leader isn't real clean. You know, when you go out in the morning and you get that first shot and you miss that first fish, and it could be just a little glaze on that leader that doesn't get you that first bite. And now you don't have the momentum you need to start the day off on the right track. Mhmm. I mean, it's kinda it's as simple as that sometimes. You know?

Tom Rowland: Do you think that's do you think that's the momentum comes from from you sometimes as the guide? Like, it's it's your attitude. It's your I

Joe Gonzalez: think so, Tom. I think so. I think so. Don't you?

Tom Rowland: Well, I I do. I mean, I think that I I think that the guide, or the captain

Joe Gonzalez: to the brink. Of course. And then And and,

Tom Rowland: like, if you get upset with somebody, it it took me a, you know, a a a while to understand really that, you know, as a young person, as a young guide, you're like you said before, you are probably more excited about catching this fish than the customer. So there might be the up might be the situation to where you get frustrated or you don't outwardly say something like that was really stupid what you just did, which some people might do that. But maybe you don't even do that, but maybe you just go quiet. Yep. Right? Yep. And then there's this what is that doing for the for for the morale in the boat? Right? Whereas if maybe you just were like, yeah. We'll get another one. No problem.

Joe Gonzalez: That's how

Tom Rowland: change the subject and no matter how badly it makes you feel

Joe Gonzalez: You keep moving on. That's right. You know? That's what I try to do, Tom. That's that's what I try to do. Although sometimes I can say, no. No. That that wasn't good. And and because it depends on the individual also. You can usually tell if you can read a person by their body language or by their expression in their face or what they do. You could say, hey. Listen. You screwed that one up. Next time, do this. And they'll accept it and take and then there's other guys that get bent out of shape. So you get a feel for that. I'm sure as a fishing guide, you Yeah. Know what they're talking about.

Tom Rowland: You know? That's the, I mean, that's that's the juice. That's what you have to that's the difference between somebody that stays in the business for a long time and somebody that doesn't is, you know, it's one thing to know where the fish are, but it's a whole other thing to be able to communicate

Joe Gonzalez: with the clients. We are in I'm in the entertainment business and therapeutic business as well.

Tom Rowland: Therapeutic business. I am. There's more stories there.

How Fish Feed: Sight, Smell, and Feel

Joe Gonzalez: Yep. There sure are. You know, Tom, a lot of times and I'm gonna I'm gonna go elsewhere with this. I'm gonna ask you another question k. So we can go somewhere else. Fish have three ways of feeding. Right? Mhmm. They fish they

Tom Rowland: fish big into lists. What's that? You're big into lists. There's five things. There's three things. Okay. I don't wanna interrupt

Joe Gonzalez: Because and it's all good, dude. But be I test when people come on a boat with me, I like to teach them, and I want them to understand the whys or why nots. Okay? So fish feed three different ways. What are they?

Tom Rowland: Feed in three different ways. Yes. Let's see. They're going to yeah. I see. You they're gonna see it. They're gonna smell it. Sight? Or they're gonna feel it.

Joe Gonzalez: Or feel. That's correct. Lateral lines. Now I'll have guys a lot of times that aren't very experienced at fly fishing. And one of the things, you being a fly fishing guide, know that the trout set is something that's a no no.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Joe Gonzalez: Now when fish feed you know, the trout set is when you lift the rod, when you get a bite and you lift the rod and the now the flies moved ten, fifteen feet out of the strike zone, and you missed that strike.

Tom Rowland: Yes.

Joe Gonzalez: When fish feed, fish don't feel pain like you and I. They're cold blooded animals. Fish are used to having shrimp, crabs, thin fish in their mouth, and when they come over and eat that fish or crab or shrimp or whatever, that shrimp and crab is poking and pinching, trying to get out of their mouth. Mhmm. How many times have you had a customer keep the fly in a and have a permit bite

Tom Rowland: Over and over and over again.

Joe Gonzalez: Right. Or four times? I've had it up in the bay. I'm I'm terrible. I'm the best at missing strikes that way because I don't get bowel time. But but what happens is if you strike and lift, that's out of the way. So these are things that I try to educate and show people. When fish run, fish don't run because of the pain of the hook. They run because they're being restricted. Mhmm. You have a fish on, and he starts hauling pot one way and you loosen the drag, he's not gonna run as hard.

Tom Rowland: Absolutely. 100% agree with him.

Joe Gonzalez: I'm sure when you permit fish sometimes, you fifth if you fish near structure I do a lot of bait fishing for permit near Yep. Structure and stuff like that. You get the bite. You set the hook. He starts running towards the area. If you ease up

Tom Rowland: Or open the bail.

Joe Gonzalez: Or open the bail, now you can start the engine, go around whatever obstruction. Or now the minute he turns and he starts facing away from that obstacle, that's when you put the heat on him because his natural instinct is to run-in

Tom Rowland: the opposite direction. Agree. 100% agree.

Joe Gonzalez: So all of these little things, I love teaching this stuff. And when it's applicable, I will yell at you if I have to while it's going on. But after I yell at you in a nice way, I say, hey. Listen. I'm sorry. And everything is good. You know? Yeah. But I do it because I'm still if I didn't yell, I've lost the passion for the sport. You know what? Are you laughing at me?

Tom Rowland: I'm just laughing because I doing good.

Joe Gonzalez: Am I am I talking good stuff here?

Tom Rowland: This is excellent.

Joe Gonzalez: You're doing

Tom Rowland: great. Okay. Sure. I'm just laughing because because I can tell I mean, sometimes you're around somebody, and you can tell why they're successful at whatever it is that they're doing. And in this business, a lot of what it takes to be successful is certainly time on the water, and it's certainly being interested in where the fish are. But it's as much about being passionate about what you're doing as as anything because that passion bleeds over into more exploring, more rigging late at night, more chart work, more talking to people and trying to understand these things that neither one of you understands. Like, why did they do this? Where do they go? I don't know. And it's just obvious that you you just have this infectious passion that is going to sometimes bleed over into maybe yelling at somebody a little bit. Like but it's but it comes from a good place.

Joe Gonzalez: Saying is I'm yelling with you, not at you. That's what I say.

Tom Rowland: Go over.

Clients Who Buy Boats and Sharing Spots

Joe Gonzalez: So some people are cool with it. But I'll tell you what. I've had some guys that don't take it well. Yeah. You know? And I get it. And then I ease off. I say, hey. Listen. I'm sorry. And as soon as another shot comes around, I yell at them again. You you know? And and and and so it goes. You know? And, you know, with fishing guides, people either like you or they don't like you. And sometimes, people that don't like you, they still come back, Tom. Yeah. Do they? Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, no. There are people out there that are a glutton for punishment.

Joe Gonzalez: Yes. That's correct.

Tom Rowland: They just

Joe Gonzalez: That's right. But it's

Tom Rowland: also there are people out there that you know what? The the thought of trying something new is not appealing either. Like, I don't I may not like this person.

Joe Gonzalez: Change. They don't like change. Right? Or or getting corrected. Or so I'm listening. I may not like this person, but Yeah. He's We catch fish. We catch fish, and I'm learning, and he's teach and then what happens is he fishes with you a couple of times, goes out, gets a boat, and thinks he's gonna do it on his own. What do you go?

Tom Rowland: Oh, I've just seen that happen a lot too. And and and that's an interesting relationship at that point.

Joe Gonzalez: It is an interesting relationship, and I've seen it go both ways. I've seen them get very good, and I've also seen them sell the boat. Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen the same.

Tom Rowland: And I've also seen it go to where they get very good, and they're not friendly with the person that brought them into the sport anymore. And I've also seen it to where that person that once was a client that now owns a boat is the best source of information for that guide. Like, they're caught, they're talking every night.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like, I found you remember where you took me that one day in that tournament? Yeah. They're there. And I'm not fishing tomorrow. So you go with your clients and just hammer whatever.

Joe Gonzalez: You're right. You're right.

Tom Rowland: And that's a that's the difference between kind of, like, how you react to that situation. Do you react to it as like, man, if you're gonna have a boat, I can't talk to you anymore. Like, that's not cool, which I mean, that was a client. That was money. I know. That was your

Joe Gonzalez: And that's I don't do that, Tom. I'm easy that way. What I might not do is take them to a spots. You you understand if I'm aware if I know. But sometimes you don't know when you're taking them to a spots, and then you find out later that they're getting a boat. But you know what? I've come to learn. I used to be very paranoid about that, Tom. But you know what? There's enough water out there. There's enough spots out there. And if he's on that spot that's gonna make my day that day and I can't fish it, you know what? It's okay. I'm gonna go out there tomorrow or the day after. So I've changed my whole perspective on that paranoid of having someone fishing a spot that I I showed or that they've seen me on, but it happens all the time as you know.

Drones, Fish Counts, and the 350,000 Bonefish Census

Tom Rowland: Has have you ever, had something happen, like, where you'd learn something from one of these scientists, or from one of the telemetry studies, or from something to where it is just an absolute mind changer of the way that you thought things happen and the way that they're actually happening? And and I I ask that because with with the with the technology of drones too. Like, we throw up a drone to do the filming of the show, and it's like, there was a fish there the whole time. Like, you know, I go back and look at at the footage of of pushing down a shoreline where we never saw a fish. But 60 feet in front, just out of sight, there was a school of bonefish going at the same speed we were the whole time, and we never saw anything and thought, just not a good day today. Like, it's just not here.

Joe Gonzalez: What were the chances that those fish knew you were there

Tom Rowland: A 100%.

Joe Gonzalez: And and they were just staying in that buffer zone?

Tom Rowland: They know they I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's a 100%. Where before I saw that with my own eyes and looking at it, I'm like, well, they're just not here today. Like and you're talking about breaking the code. It's like, okay. So you have you have this this idea, this mindset, this idea that they're not here today. But then you see with your own eyes, no. They were there today, and you're you were just being too loud or they just weren't gonna tolerate your presence today. Yeah. Yeah. Or some you gotta change your approach because they were there, and you didn't see them. Like and I just wonder if you had had, any kind

Joe Gonzalez: of a Right. Right. If I had any kind of of enlightenment Yeah. With the studies wow. That's that's you know, I not that I can sit down and say for sure, you know, other than not really, Tom. Not really. I'm not I don't think things that thorough. I'm kinda real simple person. My mind is very small. I'm not the sharpest knife in a drawer, but, you know, I really haven't sat down and said, well, what did I learn from the science? I'll tell you one thing. They used to say and I used to say there's no way. Doing the census, there was forty, fifty boats up and down from Biscayne Bay all the way down to Key West when they do the census, and they'd pull and they'd kinda try to average the distance that they pull with the amount of fish seen. So Jerry would speculate after the bell curve, after looking at the bell curve, after years of doing it, they came up with the consensus that there was 350,000 bonefish from Biscayne Bay all the way down to Key West. You know, to me, that sounded like that wasn't a whole lot of fish. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Tom Rowland: I don't know. I mean, 350,000. I mean, I'd like to see that many fish in a day. That'd be pretty awesome.

Joe Gonzalez: But, I mean, when you when you

Tom Rowland: when you see things like when you fly over to The Bahamas and you fly over the Florida Keys, it's not the same thing. You see these muds that are mullets long.

Joe Gonzalez: Oh, yeah.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And and and it's not mullet. It's bonefish. And there are, you know, thousands and thousands of them in there. And you go, you know, on a flat over there, like, right outside of Bimini, right, when you're fishing with Bimini. I was over there fishing with Fred, and, he's like, we're going in the back where the muds are, and they're gonna you know, you you pull in, and there's a giant mud. And he likes to pull around the outside, and he sees these big fish kinda cruising in and out of the mud. And you can sight cast them in there. And, of course, if if you're not a good fisherman, you could just throw it right in the mud and start catching fish.

Joe Gonzalez: Right. But you're trying to take

Tom Rowland: out see that that much in the lower keys where there are I mean, maybe you might come across at a time or two where there's there's there's big mud or whatever when you're flying over in an airplane, you kinda look down.

Joe Gonzalez: Not on a daily basis like they have in the

Tom Rowland: I I would think that there are definitely more way more fish, in my opinion, in The Bahamas because of those kind of things that you can clearly see that I don't see here. So I would think that the number would be far less than what's in The Bahamas, and I have no idea. I would think that The Bahamas numbers would be millions and maybe maybe ours. I don't know. Is 350,000 Seems low.

Joe Gonzalez: You know, I guess yeah. It seems low. And as a fishing guide, I guess I was partial to wanting there to be more fish than 350,000. But that you know? Does yeah. You know? So I would say there's no way, Jerry. There's gotta be more. And who's to say? But what happens is that since he did it for about ten years or seven years, then the numbers get more accurate. You you see Yeah. Yeah. Because I would say, well, who's to say that there's not a 150,000 fish in Hawk's Channel right now?

Tom Rowland: Right. Right.

Joe Gonzalez: You know?

Tom Rowland: Sure. I mean, exactly. I mean and you're you're making a fish count by what people can see with their eyes. You know? Just like I'm saying, we're with a drone, I'm looking, and I can see that we pulled right through an area. No one saw a single fish. Standing on coolers, looking as hard as you can possibly look, no one saw a single fish. But when you look at the drone afterwards, there were 40 fish right in front of you

Joe Gonzalez: That's crazy.

Tom Rowland: That you never saw. Yep. And, you know, you can do it and, you know, you can do the same kind of thing in, in Flamingo or whatever. You don't you don't see any redfish, and you're pulling along and one blows out, and you never saw it. Like, it's buried in the grass. Mhmm. And unless you run over the thing, you're not going to see it. You can be right next to it, or maybe you pull a little bit, and then you put your push pull a little bit out because you're gonna make a turn, and you put it on top of a fish and or close enough to where one blows out. Mhmm. Well, the boat just went right past that fish. Yep. And it didn't blow out until you bothered it with your push pull. Right. So how many more could you have possibly seen?

Joe Gonzalez: Sitting there on the bottom. Right. So it's snaking out with your

Tom Rowland: I don't know that I mean, I'm no scientist, but that seems like the best way, I guess, to see how many are out there, but you're relying on a lot of different people with a lot of different skills, with a lot of different boats, with a lot of different depths of water, with and and then, you know, is there any exaggeration or oh, there's one and another and another. Well, maybe. Was was there? I don't I don't know. Like, you know, you you you you you bring a you bring a client out there and you're like, okay. There's a big school of fish coming at us. Big school, a huge school coming at us. Get ready. Get ready. Get ready. 11:00. They're coming. They're coming. It's a huge school. There must be 20 fish in there. And they get a little closer, and you're like, well, there's four fish, you know, or whatever. And it's like, it's not 20. Oh, right. But you're excited.

Joe Gonzalez: I understand. But I've also seen it go the other way where there's really 50 fish. And the guy says, well, I only saw I said, did you see that? Just, well, I only saw three.

Tom Rowland: Right. He was looking at the very front or the very back and didn't miss the middle. But I'm saying that, you know, with a situation like that, I mean,

Joe Gonzalez: We tend to exaggerate.

Tom Rowland: Right. We tend to exaggerate, but or or under exaggerate. Like, so you're you're you're counting fish, but by what people are seeing with their eyes. I don't know. I would think that there's inherently some some and I'm sure that he knows that. Like, there's inherently gonna be flaws in that. Like, there are people who are gonna not see things that they should have, and people are gonna see more than whatever. But I don't know. 350,000 sounds sounds low, but when I hear 350,000, that starts to make catch and release be, all the more important. In 2010, we lost a ton of fish.

The 2010 Freeze and the Bonefish Rebound

Joe Gonzalez: We had that freeze, Tom. With

Tom Rowland: the freeze. What did it do to this game back?

Joe Gonzalez: We had we had a thermal drop here of, 57 degrees probably for about eleven or twelve days, if I'm not mistaken. I think if I've got if I remember correctly, that year, it was pretty hot in December. The permit fishing, which is unusual, was pretty good for us here in the bay in December. But, anyway, we did lose a lot of fish, from the mainland side, Tom. You know, when I say the mainland side, I mean from, like, Coconut Grove all the way down to Card Sound

Tom Rowland: Okay.

Joe Gonzalez: On the west side of the bay. Those fish kinda tended to go into the marinas, and, you know, it's they didn't look for the exit. Mhmm. Then Okay. They what they did with they went into the marinas, they went into the channels, and they tried to take shelter in those places.

Tom Rowland: Probably had worked before on milder cold fronts.

Joe Gonzalez: Exactly. Yeah. But we're talking about subtropical or tropical fish. I guess you can call them subtropical. Right? Yeah. And bonefish cannot tolerate a thermal drop of that many days. So we lost, large portion of the fish on the west side, and we lost some from the east side because I know because I would run around and see them. But the fish on the east side of the bay are close to the Gulf Stream. They're close to Hawk's Channel. They're so they were able to run out. The same thing happened in Key Largo or on the inside Islamorada, especially Key Largo. There was no way for them to get out because there's nothing close to there. There's no no channels leading out. So we did lose a good number, and, there was a decline in the aggregation, and I think it's bouncing back. I really do. I know you guys are seeing in Key West, they're seeing a bunch of smaller fish.

Tom Rowland: It's the best I've ever seen it.

Joe Gonzalez: That's what I've heard. Now you know that they've done studies, with models, off the coast of Cuba, and they say that the umbilical cord is in Cuba. I don't know if if if if you've talked to Aaron Adams. No. I don't know.

Tom Rowland: I don't know about the Cuba.

Joe Gonzalez: They've put models out in Cuba. And when the Gulf Stream catches those models, it comes up the coast, and it ends up in Key West Marathon. So what

Tom Rowland: do you mean by models? Like, a computer model or, like No.

Joe Gonzalez: That's dropping

Tom Rowland: stuff in the water?

Joe Gonzalez: Stuff in the water.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like, little miles or whatever.

Joe Gonzalez: Simulate bonefish before their larval stages. Gotcha. So speculation is that it starts in Cuba, and the chain continues down like the Key West. You guys get those fish. Those fish grow there. They go offshore. They spawn. Their spawn goes north a little bit into Big Pine or Marathon. Those fish grow up there, go offshore, spawn. So do you there's it's a cycle. Yeah. You you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So so the fish from Islamorada that may go out in Islamorada and spawn may end up out here in Elliot Key.

Tom Rowland: See the words? Yeah. That's interesting. When I first started guiding in in Key West, very few bonefish. Very, very few bonefish.

Joe Gonzalez: A lot of netting going on in Cuba and stuff like that.

Tom Rowland: You're right. And there was netting going on in in Key West. There

Joe Gonzalez: was netting going on?

Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah. We'd see them in the and we'd go out to the Marquesas, and there'd be boats out there, and they would be guys waiting in the water, and they'd be netting. And, you know, there was very little law enforcement back then. Very little. I mean, I would you know, it was really close to the drug days, which you remember. So Mhmm. The law enforcement was

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. They were about fishing. The emphasis was about fishing.

Tom Rowland: Like, you would see a if you saw a plane fly low, here comes a boat coming to check out and see what's going on. Mhmm. But I don't know if I ever got stopped for, are you within your limit kinda thing. If I ever was stopped, it was open up that hatch, and let me see if there's some cocaine in there or something. Yeah.

Joe Gonzalez: It wasn't fishing the it wasn't the fishing thing. Right. It wasn't the

Tom Rowland: fishing. Were netting there, and I didn't really think about that as being a factor, but that absolutely could have been a factor. But you would still think that if there were as many bonefish as there are now in Key West that you'd have seen some. I mean, but it was it was there just really weren't that many there. Now when you moved to Jew Fish Basin, Big Pine, all that area, all the way up, there were bones. Lots lots

Joe Gonzalez: of them. And there were fish. And the snipes.

Tom Rowland: And they were very, very large fish. It was very difficult to catch one under eight pounds. Really? And then the then that 2010 thing happened, and, it's really changed dramatically. And there are I mean, the bone fishing in Key West, not just like the Key West Sugarloaf to Key West area, which is kinda where I always found them.

Joe Gonzalez: No. You're talking even west of Key West. West of Key West. Right. Right.

Tom Rowland: It's really good, And it's wonderful to see because That is great. That's great

Joe Gonzalez: to hear.

Tom Rowland: You know, not only has this freeze thing, you know, rebounded, but now there are fish where there weren't fish before. Like, on these beautiful flats where you think, man, if this was in Biscayne Bay, it would be loaded. If this was Islamorada, this flat would be loaded. And there are there were none. They were permanent, you know, but no no well fish.

Joe Gonzalez: Right.

Tom Rowland: And, now they're bonefish. And it's it's really cool to see. But I just kinda wondered what your thoughts about, that freeze in in your area because I don't think I ever talked to anybody that

Joe Gonzalez: But it's bouncing back. It's bouncing back. Now there's there's also a lot of other issues, which are environmental, which are mortality rate, us fishing them. So there's a combination of things that will impact the aggregation and has impacted the aggregation. But I'm hoping that, that it, you know, stays strong or bounces back and that those fish you guys are seeing in Key West, that that theory, that Bonefish Tarpon Trust has is applicable and that we start seeing the numbers that we used to see up here in the past. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Well, when the netting goes away, it seems like seems like that's an entirely good possibility.

Steelhead on the Skeena and Family Time in Key Largo

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So, what what do you like doing outside of fishing?

Joe Gonzalez: Fishing. No. I don't know. I've in the last couple of years you know, I love steelhead fishing. Do you? Yeah. I've done, I haven't done it here in the last two years, but, within the last eleven years, I've gone up eight years. I've gone up to the Skeena River And do the steelhead up there. That's a lot of fun. I've got, friends that do that, and they take me up there.

Tom Rowland: A client. A client. Yeah. Deal.

Joe Gonzalez: That's The first year, I did it single hand, and then I did it with a spare rod. I've done it the spare rod, the, you know, the following five years. But that's a lot of fun on the ski knot.

Tom Rowland: What time of the year do you do that?

Joe Gonzalez: Usually Usually, do that in I've gone as early as June and as late as September. So it depends on through the Skeena, the steelhead are usually there. You're gonna catch you. But I've also done you know, you're fishing on the Skeena, and everything comes through the Skeena. So you can catch sockeye during a certain time of year. You can catch a king. You can catch a silver. You can catch a chum. So I've caught them all, and it's pretty neat. You know, I never used to think much of freshwater fish. Mhmm. But tell you what, you hook a steelhead in fast water, you got your hands full, dude.

Tom Rowland: Absolutely. And even a lot of the salmon, like, if you go to, if you go to, Alaska and you're fishing for even just a sockeye salmon, you get that close to the ocean. Mhmm. That's right. That's right. Yep. And that thing is like a bonefish. Yep. You know? That that is really, really cool. And, of course, you can catch other ones that that aren't as good of fighters, but I've always loved that. I mean, that's where my roots are is I started guiding trout fishing out West before I came to The Keys to to start guiding. So I I've always had a great appreciation for that. But the steelheading is one type of fishing that I don't really know that much about, but one of the things that's the most attractive about it is the places that

Joe Gonzalez: you The location. That's right, Tom.

Tom Rowland: Because some of the most beautiful places in Earth are are steelhead rivers. And when you say that you're going between June and September, describe what it's like to, leave Miami and end up you there.

Joe Gonzalez: You know how hot it is here in late August and sweltering or or or late July into August. So it's pretty neat. It's pretty neat going up there. And, you know, I've been there when it's been pretty hot, but I've also been there on those dreary, rainy, misty days, and it's cold. And you and your waders and you're peeing in your pants. That's a lot of fun, man. That's really neat. You know? That's really neat.

Tom Rowland: Lot different than Miami. I'll tell you that. But just, you know, I I always like like going from one extreme to the other, and that is, you know, how could you go to more extremes? I mean, I guess you could go to, you know, Switzerland or somewhere, but, from the flat, hot, salt water

Joe Gonzalez: That's right. To going to the rivers went to and the reason I say peeing in your pants is because when you're sitting there with those waders and you get that pressure and stuff I mean, at my age, I gotta run and pee right away, dude. I can get in the water for ten, fifteen minutes. I gotta run and pee. You know, my prostate ain't what it used to

Tom Rowland: be, dude. Anyway, you go ahead and

Joe Gonzalez: ask me. You know, Tom, I'm I'm I I I have my kids. I love spending time with my kids, with my wife. I I have a grandchild today. You do? Yeah. He's eight years old, and then, my daughter's pregnant again. I have a five year old step grandson. But family time is very important to me. As a matter of fact, we bought a little place, in Key Largo, right downtown Key Largo, right in front of Rodriguez Key, oh, about six years ago, and we go over there on weekends. Now, you know, my wife, Angie is never in a hurry for anything. And, you know, during the season, I'm working Monday through Friday, full days. And then Saturdays, when it's going off from January till about third week or July, I'm trying to do only half days on Saturdays. So I'll stay up here and fish half day Saturday, and then I'll run over and meet with them in the Keys, and I'm there afternoon, Saturday afternoon through Sunday and then drive back. But, Angie is never in a hurry for anything. But I'll tell you what. On Fridays, when Angie gets home from work, her bags are packed. She grabs her packs her her her her her bags, and she says, see. Yeah. I'm out of here. She runs out the door to the Keys. She loves it. She just you know, Angie's a paralegal, so she works at nine to five and or nine to six or 07:30 to 05:30 or whatever. But, I've never seen her hurry up or get out of the house or boogie the way she does when she's headed down to the Keys, and that fulfills me. I love to see my wife enjoying that. And it's fun. We go over there, hang out by the sandbar. And by the time Saturday afternoon rolls around, the last thing I wanna do on Sunday is go fishing. Yeah. I wanna chill out and hang out and stick by the pool and, you know, kick my feet up. And

Tom Rowland: Do you have, like, a a some type of boat down there, or do you take your own?

Joe Gonzalez: I I had I had a little flats boat over there. I just sold it. But a lot of times, I'll trailer over there. Yeah. I'll trailer my my boat over there, and and we'll go to the sandbar. It's just it's a good old time. Yeah. Then I don't wanna be fishing because I know that come Monday morning, I'm going fishing again. And I know that you know this that, yeah, we love the guiding, and the guiding's fun. But sometimes when you're doing it every day, it kinda it it catches up to you, dude. It catches up to you. Yeah. It's it's not

The Perfect Day Isn't Slick Calm

Tom Rowland: only physical, but it's also mentally mentally taxing because if you're if you're really into it, you want to do the best job that you possibly can. And so even when the fishing is is at its best and you probably I'm sure that you experienced the same thing. Like, I would get more nervous about a trip when the weather was perfect than when the weather was horrible.

Joe Gonzalez: Yep. Because You're being sarcastic.

Tom Rowland: Horrible and you go, man, if you catch anything, you're a superstar. And when the weather's perfect, that's when it's like

Joe Gonzalez: You're being tested. Or that's

Tom Rowland: your test.

Joe Gonzalez: Yep. Yep.

Tom Rowland: And you know, like, everybody's coming back to the dock. Even the guy that doesn't know what he's doing is coming back to the dock with a great story. Yep. And today is the day, and you better you know? And and what makes it even more stressful is that on a day like that, you have so many options. Like, yeah. It's gonna be great over there, and it's gonna be great over there, and it's gonna be great over there, but we can't do them all.

Joe Gonzalez: That's right. So we need to pick.

Tom Rowland: You need to make the right call.

Joe Gonzalez: Here to make that call.

Tom Rowland: We can't go over here. Yep.

Joe Gonzalez: Yep. But we could go

Tom Rowland: in the middle and have the opportunity to maybe hit either one, but that's not the meet. Like, that's kind of playing it safe. Yep.

Joe Gonzalez: Well and now that you say that, I would like to comment on this. Perfect day for me does not mean slicked out conditions. For many, fly fishermen or people that sight fish or flats fish think that the best days are the days where it's slicked out. I don't like slick conditions, Tom. I like a little bit of a breeze. I like to be camouflaged a little bit. I like to I don't know about you. I don't know if you like slick calm conditions, but experience has taught me that if it's slick, the game's gonna be much harder.

Tom Rowland: Much harder. For sure.

Joe Gonzalez: But there's a certain condition where it's blowing nine to 12 miles an hour. There's a few clouds in the sky. It's not completely bright. The clouds give us a little camouflage as well. So perfect day sometimes has a little bit of a mix of little bit of a breeze, just the right breeze, some cloud cover where you're gonna lose some of the visibility for a little bit, but that camouflages us. Don't don't you agree?

Tom Rowland: Oh, I do. Absolutely. And and, you know, I love a slicked off day because, man, after it's been blowing real hard and you've been just getting your brains beat in Yeah. It's really nice, and it's always beautiful. But those are rarely the days where you catch the most fish.

Joe Gonzalez: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Rarely the days. That's right. And and then depending on the fish that you're fishing for you know, I fish for permit a lot, and I do not consider a slick calm day to be at all ideal for permit fishing. Whereas, you know, it's it's post cold front warming up, quickly. Mhmm. Like, it's, the cooler weather's gone, but the wind's still blowing. It's blowing you know, it shifted from the north, and now it's like a a a southeaster wind at 20. Yep. Okay. Now we're talking. Water temperature's gonna rise, you know, six, eight, 10 degrees today because the sun's now out. The permit are gonna be happening. With a 20 mile an hour wind, we're gonna be able to get those

Joe Gonzalez: got a question for you. I've got a question. You're supposed to be questioning me.

Tom Rowland: No. This is better.

Joe Gonzalez: Is it is it is it depth and velocity of tide that you look for when you're permit fishing. That's what I look for. I look for that bouncy water. Yeah. You know what I mean by that bounce in the water?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. No. I know what you're talking about. And, yeah, I would say I would say that I I you know, there was a time in my permit fishing where, I guess, at at the first, I wasn't that great at finding them or wasn't that confident in it, so I was always looking for tailing fish. And, you know, in the places where I was fishing, you could find tailing fish easily. I mean, they were they were there, but they're way harder to fish for. And then later, I kinda found that if they could do the same thing that they were doing and tail, but be completely covered with the water Yep. Yep. They were much easier to catch. And so I started fishing deeper and deeper and deeper water, and then I'm fishing water that's twice as deep as they can tail. Yep. And, you know, it takes a little little bit to figure out how to see them as well as you can see them, you know, in shallower water. But but that was a big that was a big thing for me to have the confidence to move out and know that I was gonna or think that I was gonna see as many fish in the deeper water, but the catch rate went way up. Of course. Right.

Joe Gonzalez: Of course.

Redbone Tournaments, Cal Blumberg, and Bait vs. Fly

Tom Rowland: And so that that was that was I remember that being, like, a a a time of learning to where it's like,

Joe Gonzalez: man, I had been Pretty much all you did was fly fish.

Tom Rowland: Well, for a lot for a while. For the first, few years of guiding, I didn't even own a spinning run. And then it wasn't until I started fishing in the Redbone tournaments.

Joe Gonzalez: That you started picking up?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I got into the the Redbone tournaments, and I thought, well, I think it's gonna be possible to do well in the Redbone tournaments with a fly rod, and that's because you get double points.

Joe Gonzalez: Right.

Tom Rowland: So I was like, well, we could just go out and and catch half as many fish.

Joe Gonzalez: Seems easy. And and score score

Tom Rowland: much harder. Until you understand how good people like a combination of Tim Hoover and Jim Bokar

Joe Gonzalez: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Like, you're not gonna catch half as many fish as those guys

Joe Gonzalez: Right.

Tom Rowland: With a fly rod. You're just not. And, I mean, those are, like, professional people.

Joe Gonzalez: Not only that. A lot of times, if you get inclement weather, they can they know where the fish they know the lanes. You don't have to see the fish with bait to catch them.

Tom Rowland: Oh, absolutely. And and not that you're chumming or anything like that, but even on even on days where you would consider it to be perfect for for fly fishing, those guys are gonna outfish you. Yep. They are really good. They have been doing it for a really long time, and there are, you know, guides like a Mark Croca pair him with one of the best anglers on the planet. McCaffey. Yeah. This guy, like, Tim Mahaffey and and Mark Crocker. Mhmm. Those guys don't miss.

Joe Gonzalez: I know that.

Tom Rowland: So if they get a shot, they're putting it in the boat. Right. Right? Where you can take, I don't know, whoever you consider to be the best fly fisherman in the world and pair him with whoever you consider to be the best fly guide in the world. And even on the best day, on the best cast, on the best presentation with the right fly, the fish sometimes doesn't eat it. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. The fish, I mean, like, Mark Crocker told me this a long time ago. He's like, with bait, if you do it right, every fish should eat it. So if you didn't catch the fish, you didn't do it right. And I was like, okay. And I really liked that. I really liked that approach because then it was like, it should happen. Where with fly fishing, I don't think that you can say that. I don't think that you can say, if if you do it right, they should eat it. Because I've seen thousands of people do it or not thousands of people, thousands of casts land exactly where I'm telling the the you know, for permit fishing, and they go over to it just like they do when you throw a dead crab to them, and they don't want that either. Yep. Right?

Joe Gonzalez: And it's like well, here's here's where, and I'm sorry to interrupt you. A guide could have you cast, could tell you to strip, and how you he wants you to strip it, but a good angler brings that sixth sense as well.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Joe Gonzalez: Don't don't you agree to the 100%? Stop it or maybe twitch it a little more or play that cat and mouse game.

Tom Rowland: They're doing things. They're doing all of that in a in a in a reactionary time way faster than you

Joe Gonzalez: can tell them. Exactly. Right.

Tom Rowland: Exactly. And so that's where you're not if you have an angler that's not at that level, you're not competing with those guys. I mean, you're just not. I understand. Because and then there's the time when the guide looks at his watch or whatever, and the angler goes, there's one, and whips it in there and catches one. Yep. And and the guide had zero to do with it other than being in the right place at the right time.

Joe Gonzalez: Doubt that.

Tom Rowland: And so that's a fish on the board. Yep. But I got very, interested in those tournaments. And and on the first one, we did quite well with the fly rod, but didn't win. And then I'm watching, and I'm reading these big boards, and I'm seeing the guides that are consistently doing well. And then I started fishing with this, with this doctor from Fort Lauderdale, Cal Blumberg. I don't know if you know him or not, but he I know the name. He's he's a wonderful man and a great fisherman, and he came to me to catch permit on fly. That's what he wanted to do, and that's I did that. I'd that was what I like to do. So we start our relationship fly fishing for permit. He gets so into it that he wants to start the Del Brown permit tournament, and he did. And he started that, and then he let other people run it for a while. But that was the dream. Like, let's do this. But along the way, he's like, you know, tomorrow I'm bringing crabs. And I'm like, whatever, cat. Whatever you wanna do, man. Like, to other people, I might at that time in my career, I might have said, no. It's gonna be great for fly fishing. You book me for fly fishing. Let's go fly fishing. But I was open to it, and, it wasn't like I had never seen someone catch a permit on a crab or did that occasionally, but I had never seen somebody do it like that. And he comes with, you know, two dozen crabs, perf everyone perfect. He has the right hooks. He has the right line. He has the right tackle. And every fish that we saw that day, he puts the crab perfectly in front of it, and he and they eat it, and we catch the fish. And a lot of fly fishermen will say, you know, I'd rather catch one on fly than 10 on bait. And on that day, I was like, well, shit. They've never caught 10 on bait because that was fun. That was super

Joe Gonzalez: fun. Tom.

Tom Rowland: That was so much fun. Yep. And I learned so much on that day about I got to see 10 fish eat. Yep. And I got to see 10 fish be fought, and I got

Joe Gonzalez: to see 10 Tom, I've reactions. Always said that what makes what will make a good fly fisherman is a good bait fisherman.

Tom Rowland: I'm a 100% in agreement with you.

Joe Gonzalez: And and, Tom, you know, my business is not all fly fishing, and I'm okay with that. I couldn't make a living just taking fly fishing guys out. I would lose a lot of days weather wise. I'm at a point in my career, and even when I started, I would have cut a big piece of the pie off. I love fly fishing. Mhmm. Okay? But I bait fish a bunch.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Joe Gonzalez: And I'm okay with think

Tom Rowland: you have to.

Joe Gonzalez: I'm okay with to be able to fish, at least for me, that's my business here in Miami. It's not based on you have a different in The Keys, people go to The Keys to fish. Mhmm. People really don't come to Miami to fish. Mhmm. It's a different client base. You guys have guys that go over there for five days, seven days, three days minimum. Yep. If I have a guy here for three days, that's a bunch. Yeah. So it's a different client bait, and you know what? I'm okay with fishing bait. I do too. And like you're saying, I've learned a lot about the species fishing bait. And you get to read them, and you get to see what the takes are and what they do or what they don't do. Did he skim did he skim the crab on the surface?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, he did all kinds of stuff that I had never seen before. Like, I had never seen somebody that was an expert spin fisherman that had spent more time practicing in the backyard and on the dock and and on the boat with a spinning rod than most people practice with a fly rod. And fly fishermen are practicers. You know? They're out there. But Cal was he took it to a whole different level. He wanted to be perfect with that spinning rod, and then he started fly fishing. Right? And he was perfect with the spinning rod. He could do the splashless cast, and he could cast beyond them and bring it to him. He could do he could do everything. He was one of the he was, at the time, the very finest spin fisherman that I had ever seen. And coming from Tennessee where it's bass fishing, you know, I mean, I'd seen people with bait casters, and and some of those bass fishermen with with bait casters are like wizards. Yes.

Joe Gonzalez: They are. They can zip it in.

Tom Rowland: We are. You know? And and so I'd seen stuff like that, but you don't see the fish like like you do down here. And to see him do that, that it lit a fire in me, and it happened in a time where I was having kids. And so I also needed to learn how to get my kids to catch fish, and it wasn't gonna be go out there and sit on the cooler and watch me try to catch a tarpon for five hours with a fly rod. It was gonna be, let's go up against the bushes and catch snappers. And so this this started this whole learning process. Yep. And then the bay boats came along and and and this everything changed at that point. But I got really into fishing the bait. And now when I say I started out in Key West and I didn't own a spinning rod for a few years, well, that's also a very, short window in my life to where when I first went there and first started guiding, well, I didn't have any kids. I didn't have any bills. I didn't have a wife. You know, I'm not, a weather day? Okay. Where fast forward to it, three kids, mortgage That's right. Low payments. You got two guys working for you. We're going. We're going. Yeah. We're going. Yeah. We're going. Yeah. And and it's a great day to catch barracudas on a spinning rod. So and have you ever done it? No? Well, I promise you're gonna like it. It's gonna be the best day of fishing you've ever had. We're gonna we're gonna have

Joe Gonzalez: this great day of fishing.

Tom Rowland: And and and it's a perfect day for that. And if we or we're gonna go look for what you

Joe Gonzalez: both told me. Tom, a lot of times, those crappy days come out being a lot better.

Tom Rowland: Oh, the best.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: But but it's also having a a a client that's got an open mind enough. Now I've had this conversation Yep. With a lot of my fly guys. Yep. And I'm like, listen. I'm telling you. You've been you've been coming for, like, three or four years, and you haven't caught the permanent fly.

Joe Gonzalez: Let's change it up.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And so they're like, okay. I'm open to it. And you hand them the spinning rod, and they make a cast that's so bad that you're like, you know what? You're just gonna do better with a fly rod. Like, have you ever done that Yeah. To where somebody actually holds it upside down?

Joe Gonzalez: Like, they have Absolutely.

Tom Rowland: Absolutely. Wait a minute. You've never held a spinning rod before? And you're an expert fly fisherman, but you've never even held a spinning rod? There are those people out there where I I it it didn't when I first started guiding it, that wasn't the way. The fly fisherman had made this progression. They started out maybe offshore, then they went in inshore. They caught lots of bonefish and permit and tarpon, you know, lots of different ways. And then they decided, that's easy. I wanna go and try something a little harder, and they start fly fishing. Those were the type of people that were the fly fishing clients, like, probably in 1987 when you first start.

Joe Gonzalez: So I'm gonna talk about a little bit about that. But prior to that, what I like to do, Tom, I like to minimize expectations with people so that I can capitalize

Tom Rowland: on resources.

Joe Gonzalez: The worst thing I can do is tell someone how good the fishing was yesterday.

Tom Rowland: That's what Lefty Kreh always said.

Joe Gonzalez: That's the worst thing I could do. So good that

Tom Rowland: I thought it was yesterday.

Joe Gonzalez: That's the that's the worst thing I could do is tell someone how good it was. So I try to keep a low key with that. But, anyway, you know, I think back then when you started and I started or whatever, that was kind of the .com era. That was the term yuppie Mhmm. Came. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of stock market money. Fly fishing became trendy. The movie, A River Runs Through It came out.

Tom Rowland: I've talked about that a lot on this podcast because that came out when I was a trout guide.

Joe Gonzalez: Okay. And a lot of people started fly fishing in a bit because prior to that, fly fishing really didn't have a whole lot of allure. Right? Mhmm. I'm sorry I'm interrupting you, dude.

Tom Rowland: No. No. I'm going I'm I'm a 100% with you. Go for it.

Joe Gonzalez: So the fly fishing industry really took off. And I'm trying to think what year that movie I would assume that it was around '93, '94. Mhmm. Does that sound about right? Yeah. That's about right. And the fly fishing just kinda took off. It climaxed, and then it kinda started dropping. You know? But I know that I hit it right. I think it was a good time in my starting a career like that. I had been around for a few years, and it catapulted me to another level where I was able to make it because as you know, guiding, it's not an easy career, dude, and there's a lot of ups and downs. I remember nine eleven. I remember different situations that the guiding the first thing that people do is stop spending that money on fishing or things that bring them what's the word I'm looking for? You know, the expendable cat. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Expendable. Yeah. Right. And recreational income or Yeah. That's true. And stuff like that.

Joe Gonzalez: But but I think I hit it right. But, I don't know where I was going with that. Just thought I'd throw

Tom Rowland: that in. Fly fishing, you know, it's not it doesn't have to be the only way. And I love fly fishing. You love fly fishing. But there's also you know, there's great things about fishing for all of these fish with bait. I mean, watching a giant Islamorada bonefish eat a shrimp that's been perfectly placed in front of it Mhmm. Is pretty damn cool.

Joe Gonzalez: Or or me having some and I have this a lot, Tom. Someone who really never has fished. And, unfortunately, sometimes I have to what we call booger fish Yeah. Under inclement weather. Right. Sit there and put baits out Right. And just soak bait. But if you catch this person that's never caught a bonefish before or maybe never even caught a saltwater fish and you catch a To me, that's fulfilling. Even though he caught it on a shrimp, even though he never saw it, I'm still doing what I love to do, and I'm teaching someone how to catch a fish.

Tom Rowland: Right. Yeah. I don't think you know, I think, so many people, myself included, and you're you right now with what you just said, are, like, trying to justify the fact that you're bait fishing, which I don't think there's any reason to.

Joe Gonzalez: Yeah. I find myself trying

Tom Rowland: to kill you. Think there's any reason to, though, because bait fishing's awesome. And if it wasn't for bait fishing, you're not gonna run a 300 That's right. That's right. Three hundred day a year.

Joe Gonzalez: And at the end of the day, I have mortgage payments, car payments. Good little place in the keys, man. I never thought I could have that, dude. You know?

Tom Rowland: That's awesome. That's awesome. But, you know, I don't think that you should, you know, try to justify the baitfish. I think you're good at it. It's part of what we do. It'd be like it'd be like an offshore guy saying, you know, I really don't wanna throw the net. You know, I mean, sometimes we have to throw the net. You know? It's like, well, yeah. Like, that's But that's a part of it.

Joe Gonzalez: That's right. That's it. But if in in the grand scheme of things, if you really think about the fishing industry, Tom, the whole fishing industry, about 70%, I don't know what the numbers are. You probably know better than I do. It's the bass circuit.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Yeah. For sure.

Joe Gonzalez: Out of that 70% after that 70%, about 22, 23% is to saltwater. I don't even know how much the where the break is, but the fly fishing, it's a very small piece of the pie, dude. Yeah.

A Master Angler's Lifetime of Learning

Tom Rowland: It's a very small piece of the pie, but the people that that do it are very avid. And so the draw for a fishing guide towards the fly fishing is that, typically, the caliber of angler that is going to get off your boat and book those same days again next year is likely to be the fly fisherman. The guy that that You're right. He travels all around the world. Yep. He brings your lunch. He tips you well. At Christmas, there's a Christmas card that comes to your to your wife. Type of client. Yep. Thank you for having me to dinner. When they're in town, they take you to dinner. Like, it you are catered to, like, a rock star a lot of times. Now not to say that, an angler like Hal Blumberg, who really opened my eyes to spin fishing, that's how he treated his guides as well. You know? I mean, it's like it doesn't matter the tool. In my opinion, I mean, what I like the most is thinking of all a bait caster, a fly rod, a spinning rod, an offshore rod. They're all tools. Yep. And if you want to be a good fisherman, you need to know how to use all of them.

Joe Gonzalez: Going back to master, Edward. Need to

Tom Rowland: know, yeah, the master angler thing. I think we've lost that. And I think that, you know, to be a really great angler, to consider yourself a great angler, you need to know the offshore side and you need to know the inshore side. And not just the dolphin and sailfish, what about the swordfish and the deep dropping? Can you could you do that? Could you are you as comfortable out there as you are pulling, you know, in in 10 inches of water and finding bonefish? Could you then go into freshwater and catch a steelhead?

Joe Gonzalez: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, catch a bass. Yep.

Tom Rowland: Catch all of that. And and that's what I think is is the most exciting about fishing is that to do all of those things. Now, obviously, today, it's much easier. There's guides in every one of those areas, so you don't rarely have to do it by yourself. You can book people and gain I mean, how much do you learn when you go steelheading with people that steelhead all the time? You're gonna learn very, very quickly.

Joe Gonzalez: Yes, sir.

Tom Rowland: Right? And then the next week, you could be up in Alaska salmon fishing, and then you could be down in Mexico permit fishing, and you could be doing all of these things. But the the thing that I've always liked the most about fishing is that it really would take a lifetime to be a true master angler, to be able to catch bass on all types of tackle, to catch bonefish on all types of tackle, permit, sailfish, swordfish, whatever. All of these things on all different kinds of tackle in all different places in the world, that's a lifetime.

Joe Gonzalez: Yes. It is.

Tom Rowland: And it's a lifetime of learning. Yes. It is. And you

Joe Gonzalez: know what, Tom? All I want, I just wanna have fun, man.

Tom Rowland: There you go.

Joe Gonzalez: No matter how I do it, as long as I'm having fun, it's good. You know? And I've been seriously thinking about taking up golf here sometime. Well,

Tom Rowland: there you go.

Joe Gonzalez: I knew there's a lot to learn about golf, man.

Tom Rowland: That's another lifetime.

Joe Gonzalez: Right? And when we close ourself up and stop wanting to learn or stop wanting to take that next step to learn something or to kinda you know, we're cutting ourselves short. So, I wanna keep fishing, keep learning, and I may take up golf. I hear my buddies are having a good time golfing, man. I'm sorry to throw this in there.

Closing: How to Reach Captain Joe

Tom Rowland: That's awesome. No. No. I don't think that there could be a possible way that we could end this better than you just wanting to have fun and that you're gonna be you're gonna be golfing. So I can only imagine that that, as the days as the days get shorter on the water, the golf days get longer. But, you know, you made a hell of a career. You've made a great, reputation for yourself. I'm I'm all the way at the other end of the Florida Keys, and I've heard about you ever since I started. So

Joe Gonzalez: Same here, Tom. Same here. It's an honor. I'm really honored for you to have have me on here, and I I wish you nothing but the best for you to

Tom Rowland: be able to go. Podcast is about. It's about learning. This is another opportunity to learn. I mean, when is when is it that we've been going for an hour and twenty eight minutes. When is it that you and I would be able to sit down and exchange fishing stories without the cell phone ringing, without anything else. It it just doesn't happen much. And that's what I've liked the most about this project. And it started as a project, and now it's turned into something else. But, you know, I've been able to sit down with with people like you, people like Bouncer Smith that, you know, these people I'd heard about for so long, and I'd never met them. So it's been a it's been a real pleasure for me. And, I wish you the very, very best. And if I can ever help you do anything Thank you, brother. All about

Joe Gonzalez: I commend you I commend you on everything you've done in your life. I I admire you, brother. Okay?

Tom Rowland: I thank no. I thank you very much. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you. All the best. Tell us how we can get in touch with you, follow you. Somebody can book you.

Joe Gonzalez: Yo. I'm, CaptainJoeGonzalez dot com. Simple as that. Or they could always call me at (305) 798-0841. I like talking, so talking on the phone works for me still. You know? Used to be where it was magazines and stuff like that, but now it's the Internet. And I'm on there. I'm on Instagram, but it's all good. If you wanna find me, you could find me.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Give him a call. He'll talk your ear off.

Joe Gonzalez: Alright. Thanks, Joe. Thank you, bro.

Tom Rowland: See you.