Chris Dombrowski - Body Of Water

Cold Open

Chris Dombrowski: Deepwater Key is a small island, small little key off the Far East End of Grand Bahama, the, the East End that was just ravaged by Dorian, which we'll talk about, I assume, a little bit later. But Pinder himself had never fished for bonefish. He had never fly fish for him. He had, of course, caught them, you know, with hand lines, and he'd grown up on the East End foraging. His father was a sponger, and so when Drake hired him hired Pinder basically clear mangroves and and load rocks off of the island that he detent intended to, develop for a fishing lodge, he asked Drake asked Pinder, come here. Let let me show you these fish here. Have do you know where to find them? And he pointed out a school of bonefish to to David Pinder. And David, of course, said, oh, of course, I do. You know, I I've seen him, I've seen him everywhere. And, he wondered to himself, you know, Pinder wondered to himself, what what could Drake want with these fish? You know, they're they're full of bones, and they're they don't taste very good, and so on and so forth. And so, you know, little did he know that the the fish that he would go on the next year to guide Drake to, Bonefish, would become the crux of the Bahamian tourism industry, you know, to the tune of a $150,000,000 a year. I'm Chris Dombrowski, and this is the Tom Roland Podcast.

Introduction

Tom Rowland: Well, we're having a beautiful day here. I hope you're having a beautiful day in your area, wherever that is. Got a great podcast for you today. I read a book recently that was actually recommended to me by a listener of the show. It's called Body of Water. It's by a guy named Chris Dombrowski, who is a Montana guy, and he wrote this book all about The Bahamas. So that's interesting, and I just really liked the book. I thought it was incredibly well written, and it told a story kind of in a way that I hadn't really heard before. It was about a really famous guy named David Pinder, and just a lot kind of about his life, and his life is kind of The Bahamas' life. Like, how The Bahamas became such a bonefish destination, how they embrace the bonefish, can you love something to death by developing it too much so that we can go fish for bonefish? All of these questions certainly are top of mind, and they certainly come up in this book, and it was a fantastic book. I really liked it. And I love my conversation with Chris Dombrowski, and that's coming up right now.

Montana Ties and the Guiding Life

Tom Rowland: Chris, man, thank you for coming on the podcast. I've got a lot of things to talk to you about. For those who are joining today, Chris Dombrowski, he's a poet and a writer, fishing guide in Montana, and I just read your book. I don't know why it took me so long to get to it, but Body of Water, all about The Bahamas. I read it actually before the hurricane. Really good.

Chris Dombrowski: Well, thanks, Tom. I'm glad to be with you today. I'm I'm sad I missed you when you were in Montana earlier than this this fall, but we'll have to connect out here Mostly. Again soon.

Tom Rowland: I will be spending more and more time out there because both my boys are at Montana State, and it is it's so awesome. I love Montana. I spent a lot of time in Wyoming, in Jackson. I used to guide down there. But then when I got started guiding in Key West, there were many years that I didn't go back until I had my my kids were young, and then we took them out to Yellowstone and kinda started doing that kinda every other year. We would get out there, and, man, I guess it I guess it had a big part in, you know, kind of giving my kids the bug because both of them are just they're all about Montana now. You know? It's it's so awesome.

Chris Dombrowski: Well, that's yeah. That's fantastic. You'll always have a place to be at once if they're here now in their, late teens, early twenties, they'll never leave.

Tom Rowland: Well, you know, you do have that's what I said too. And then as you know, once I got to the place in college to where I could actually spend a winter there, I gave it a shot. Of course, Bozeman's a little different than Jackson. Jackson's a very cold place. Bozeman seems to be a little warmer, but I'm I'm speaking from, I'm a snowbird. Like, I went to I spent a winter in Jackson Hole, and I that's how I ended up in Key West. So I went I went as far as you could go in The United States. Oh, I

Chris Dombrowski: love it. Yeah. I can I can see that for sure? I mean, we went down as a family to, to Arizona last last spring, which tends to be a Montana spring looks like a winter anywhere else, you know, for the most part. And usually that those last fits of winter in March are the ones that are hardest to endure. So we try to get out of here, in early March, and we went down to Arizona. And and both my wife, Mary, and I were saying, I can do this every winter. You know? I'd I don't know how long that bird season lasts in Arizona, but I'd love to have an extra couple of months to run the dogs. And,

Tom Rowland: yeah, my kids love Montana, and they have really my son just has grown real fond of elk hunting. And so, the last couple years, he has been spending a lot of time in the mountains. Last year, he did a little guiding, took a year off of school. Then he got refocused and decided he wanted to go back to school, and since he's been going back, he's had straight A's, so it was actually really good for him.

Chris Dombrowski: That's outstanding.

Tom Rowland: He could have decided that wasn't what he was what he really wanted to do. Like, he kind of comes you you'll you'll understand this as a fishing guide, you know, there's, like, there are people that that start to guide because they want to fish more, and then there are other people that see guiding as an art, you know, and it's like they go into guide mode. And they're everything's about getting that person to catch a fish. Well, some other people, I'm sure you've run into plenty of them, that they don't last very long in the guiding world because they, they kinda wish they were on

Chris Dombrowski: the road. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. I know a few of those guys still. Even after fifteen years, I I look and I say, why why do you have the rod in your hand? You know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. When I first started guiding, that was the cardinal sin. I mean, you probably even know this family, but Verne Bressler, do you are you familiar with that name? So that's who I started guiding for in, in in Jackson, and, his son, Joe. And they, I mean, he was just, you know, old school cowboy, and he just told me straight up, he's like, the worst thing you can do is fish on a trip. You just don't do that ever. Because what'll happen is you'll catch the biggest fish, and then they'll come back and they'll say, well, I didn't catch anything, but the guy caught a huge one. And he's like, if I ever hear that, you're done. I was like, oh, okay. Message message received.

Chris Dombrowski: I know. I I still remember my first year of guiding down on the Big Hole River. It would have been, oh, far enough into the season. You know, late August, early September, I was maybe getting my wits about me just a little bit. And, I remember the float. We were floating the big hole. I had a single angler. We were going from Brown's Bridge to Glenbridge, and, we pulled over in this little side channel to throw a hopper and a dropper through a through a little trench. And I watched this client make a cast where I knew there was a fish. He he made a drift fifteen, twenty times or so, and and he said, okay. You know, he he's kinda resigned himself to the fact that he wasn't gonna catch anything there. He said, I'm gonna go take a leak. Will you hold this, you know, hold this rod for me? I said, sure. And, he turned around, and I took one cast, you know, and I hooked a 20 inch rainbow and played it kind of squeamishly until he got back, and I just I remember the look on his face, and I said to myself, I'll never do that again. You know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Man, that's that's the worst. But, you know, my my son kind of experienced that a little bit with the elk hunting because while he was a pretty good guide, he was he actually was 50% for the season, on his first season elk guiding, which is I think that's pretty good.

Chris Dombrowski: Oh, that's outstanding.

Tom Rowland: He still really hasn't really experienced a whole lot of it for himself, and so he's just kinda like, it's a very fleeting season. I mean, even the fishing season is quite a bit longer than the elk archery season or something like that.

Chris Dombrowski: So No. People people lose jobs and and and wives and and husbands all all the time over elk season, for sure. Yeah. He's he's Right. He's still crazy enough to to think. I know I don't do a whole lot of bird guy. I don't do any bird guiding, you know, for upland birds, but, but I take buddies who, don't hunt a whole lot. And, when your dog points a cove of you, hunts after tracking them for a mile up the mountain, you know, and and your buddy gets up there and and the gun is unloaded or something like that, and he doesn't get a shot, There's only so much of that you can take. You know? I've Right. That whereas if we were, you know, on the on the drift boat and somebody misses a fish, you just go, okay. Well, we'll find another. But elk

Tom Rowland: But it's kind of the it's kind of the mindset, though. Don't you think? I mean, like, if you were if you were a bird guide, that's just kind of part of the part of the deal. You know, like, people are gonna mess up. People aren't gonna be as in in as good a shape as you. They're not gonna be able to go up the mountain. You're gonna know that there's a covey up there, but you're, you know, you gotta stop short and turn around and go back. And it's like, okay. Well, that's that's kinda what I'm here for.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: But Well, I'm like a mindset.

Chris Dombrowski: And and you what you're saying is is your son is a little too hungry for elk to still to to make a go of it as a of a as an elk guy despite his proficiency at it.

Tom Rowland: Right. Exactly. And and but it turned out it was great for him because it really refocused him on school. And, since he's been back, he's been doing remarkably well.

Chris Dombrowski: That's awesome.

Tom Rowland: Then my younger son went out there too, and, his first year, you know, he chose a different school and, then transferred to Montana. And, man, the difference this year between last year, just talking to him on the phone, he's just so happy, and it's so nice to see that. How old are your kids?

Chris Dombrowski: Well, they are Luca, our son, is 15. Molly, our middle daughter, is 11, and Lily, our little one, is nine. So quite a spread, and Luca's a freshman in high school now. He's a super multitalented dude. He's a he's a writer of sorts. He's he writes songs and records them, and and they're fantastic. And, also, he's he's kind of a, a fantastic athlete too. He's a soccer player and a runner. And the girls are great soccer players as well and super creative. You know, real all of them are real earthy kids, I'd say. Lily, our little one, is definitely the one who's caught the fishing bug the most intensely. You know? She's she's into it. She's she's always like you know, she's been sick this week, and she's been really upset because she thinks she's not gonna be well enough to go fishing on Sunday, which is something we've been planning on doing. But, yeah, she gets after it. And, I think I don't know if you I I would imagine that with your sons, like, you had a a bunch of fishing buddies who kinda spoiled them early on. You know? And, that's a little bit what it's been like for Luca. I mean, he he he was essentially fishing with guides for his whole, upbringing. And so, you know, now when we go out and fishing's a little bit tough, he he looks at me like, are there no fish in this river? You know? Why don't I have

Tom Rowland: an empty

Chris Dombrowski: answer on?

Tom Rowland: That's the double edged sword, man. It's like that that knife edge you walk when you're when you're getting kids into things, and and then you have, you know, developed this skill set of guiding people and knowing where the fish are and having this network of people that you can talk to to find out, like, where where whatever it is that you're looking for is happening. And then putting, you know, you want to do the best for your kids. Like, I'm gonna put them right on the meat, and you do. And, you know, then it's kind of like, you know, my son my sons were catching bonefish when they were four years old, And it's like, okay. How do you top that? You know? Well, permit. Okay. Well, they did that when they were five years old. So, like, I mean, you know, it's like, okay. Well, now what? But, you know, they kinda went through a little phase of kinda being a little jaded as far as the fishing goes, but then they then they went back to it. Like, now they now I think they fully appreciate it, especially as they start to try to do it, kind of, on their own and, realize, oh, okay. It's a it's not as easy as as I thought. You know? Or

Chris Dombrowski: Well, it's cool is to know too that your son's, I mean, branching out into the elk hunting world because, I mean, that's that's probably as close as as a person can get to flats fishing in, you know, in the West anyway. I mean, the hunting equivalent of it. It's it's so visual, and it's absolutely, unforgiving. Right? You just don't they don't make mistakes very, very, very rarely. And so

Tom Rowland: I tell you, it's addicting too. Oh, yeah.

Chris Dombrowski: I know.

Tom Rowland: I mean, the whole thing about it, you're just in this beautiful setting. It's incredibly physical. You're you're hunting an incredibly smart animal, and, it's just, you know, to have success is is incredible. And but even just to be there, like, when I go hunting with him, I'm like, well, we're kind of doing the things that I would do if I wasn't hunting. We're hiking in the backcountry. It's beautiful. It's awesome, and these are the kind of areas that I want to be in. And, I don't know, the only thing that kinda gets me about the elk hunting, and maybe I'm kind of a wuss, but it's like all the time I spent in Yellowstone, you're kind of brainwashed into what what good good kind of protocol is in bear country. You know, you should make noise. You should

Chris Dombrowski: you

Tom Rowland: should make sure that, you know, your the wind's at your back so that anything ahead of you can smell you coming and, you know, the bear you're not gonna surprise any bears and and, you know, stay on the trail. And then when you go elk hunting, it's like everything you're doing is exactly the opposite of that. So

Grizzly Country

Chris Dombrowski: No. You're, yeah.

Tom Rowland: Me a little nervous.

Chris Dombrowski: I bet. I bet. I mean, I have a saying with, you know, with birds. There's there's no, no pheasant worth dying for. You know? Because a lot of our pheasant country abuts cruise cruise country. You know? And, I guess as as good as elk tastes, I would have to agree there's not really a an elk worth dying for either. But, No.

Tom Rowland: It it's definitely not. But, you know, my field is, like, it's gonna if it happens, it's gonna happen, like, really quickly. And, like, where we were hunting this year, there were there was an attack,

Chris Dombrowski: you

Tom Rowland: know, only only three or four miles away, and, we heard about it after we got back, and we're like, wow, like three miles. That's, I mean, you you just know you're in. It doesn't take much to know. I mean, you look around, you're like, wow. This is grizzly country for sure.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. I just heard about a grizz that had been killed on the highway about two miles from, a spot that I frequently, hunt for puns in for Hungarian partridge. And, you know, I'd told myself for years, oh, these hills are too barren. They don't come up here, blah blah blah. And and, you know, I think the answer the truth of it is in the West, you know, the Rocky Mountain West, they're just everywhere now. You know? I don't know if you saw this book. I should I should get a copy of it to you, and you could send it to your sons. But there's a great new book called Down from the Mountain by a guy named Bryce Andrews that came out this spring. And he follows, I'll just let's just call it the grizz the the human grizzly bear interface, on edge of the Mission Mountains North Of Missoula. The Missions are, a super stark, rugged, beautiful range. I I mean, I'm prejudiced, but I would call the Missions the the most beautiful mountain range in Montana. They kind of the north

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Chris Dombrowski: The the north end of the missions touches up against Flathead Lake, and the the south end of the Missions kind of curls around the town of Saint Ignatius. But the the eastern edge abuts the Bob Marshall, or you you can get into the Bob directly from the mission. So for years, you know, if there were problem bearers in the, the Bob, they put him in the missions and and so on and so forth. And there were a couple of strange encounters last year no. A a while back, where some pheasant hunters, you know, ran into some grizzlies. In fact, a guiding buddy of mine, got got grabbed by a sow and, that was protecting two cubs. And, you know, while he was hunting pheasants and this is all country that I when I was younger, I used to crawl around on my knees to get through the brush, you know, and and, we'd get into some swamps that were super thick, like, you know, reminding me of, Dagobah from the old Star Wars movies. You know? And, I I didn't think anything of it. You know? I I I can remember seeing scat piles that would, you know, fill your kitchen sink, and I just think, well, okay. But, anyway, the book, Bryce's book, is is a fantastic examination of of kind of where we are right now in terms of human interactions with grizzlies. And, the kind of tragedy of the missions right now that range is that a lot of the farmers are, are growing corn, and corn Mhmm. Is essentially addictive to these grizzlies. They they just can't stop eating it. It's terrible for them. It ruins their teeth. It's basically without nutrition. And, of course, they aren't exerting any energy to to get it so that, you know, they're not forging, they're not digging, they're not climbing. They just sit in these, in these big old corn fields. And then, and they won't leave. I mean, to the extent that when the sites and the combines finally come to clean up the corn, the, they they're they're cornering these grizzlies in, like, 10 by 20 yard patches of corn.

Tom Rowland: That would not be fun even in a tractor. I wouldn't be like, no. No. Thank you. Yeah.

Chris Dombrowski: Well, yeah. Yeah. You I'm glad you're worried about your son, though. That's I think that's a real it's a real thing. You know? But

Tom Rowland: Well, you know, there's at some point, you know, there's some, like, pretty controversial topics to to be discussed. Like, yeah, as there are a lot more bears now than when when I was guiding and messing around out there, you know, twenty five, thirty years ago. And, I mean, at what point are there enough that you have to hunt them or or you should hunt them? Because there's no fear. Like, grizzly bears, they have no reason to fear, man.

Chris Dombrowski: No. I think And Yeah. And they're they're entering environments where they they either didn't exist before or we didn't see them before. You know? I have this like, there's a stretch on the Blackfoot that we float frequently. I hope that I'm boiling some water for some tea. I hope that's not too loud. But, No. It's good. Know, there's a stretch. It's a popular stretch. It's a gorgeous stretch of river called the Box Canyon. And I would say in there this year, I know guides or buddies who have seen who have had, like, say let's say a dozen grizzly bear encounters. You know? And over my twenty one years of guiding, I've known of two in that same stretch. Now, by encounters, I mean, they saw them. You know? The the encounters weren't weren't bad or dangerous or anything, but, I did have two buddies get charged while they were in their boats. A sow had a had two cubs and a and a elk down. And, it was early in June, and probably, you know, she hadn't seen a whole lot of boat traffic. But, either we're we're hearing about it more because our networks are more connected and we have Instagram and and all that stuff, or there are, you know, or they're trickling out into areas where we didn't see them before. I mean, I know there was a Grizz that FWP captured on the Stevensville Golf Course. Stevensville, Montana is in the Bitterroot Valley, and there hadn't been a recorded Grizz in the Bitterroot for, I wanna say, at least several decades. I could I could be wrong on that, that number, but, you know, they thought they had a black bear that was digging up the fairways, and it turns out it was this young grid. I think they're running out of places to to put them in terms of, you know, where you would would transport, quote, unquote, problem bear.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. But you do you don't think that it's just the problem bears that are, you know, being being displaced or or replaced into different areas that is create I mean, overall, there's just an explosion of of the the population.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. What I mean is that that that bear is a, quote, problem bear because it's found itself somewhere it normally wouldn't have because there's no room for it anywhere else, you know, in the norm Right. Exactly. Quote normal. Yeah. It's a fascinating question. I mean, it's it delves and kind of braids together a lot of the pressing questions about the West. You know? Like, we love it. More and more of us love it every year. Where are we gonna live in relation to the wild creatures, and, how are we going to adjust the way we, you know, manage them and and, have dealt with them over the years? I mean, I I'm not I don't have a a religious thought about it as a as a lot of my friends do, you know, in terms of, I don't I don't really fall on one side of the argument or the other. I just think, like, well, here we are. You know? How are we gonna deal with it? I'm Well, that's

Why the Bahamas Instead of Montana

Tom Rowland: you know, what a what a interesting, kinda segue you you made probably accidentally into one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, about your book because, you know, you're you're a Montana guy that's writing a book about The Bahamas, and you did it in such a way that it was really beautiful, like, the the way that you did this. And if if someone hasn't read the book, it's it's basically kind of a a history lesson, and then there's kind of a then there's kind of, like, a a a geography lesson, and then there's some, you know, there's some science in there for the bonefish and, you know, the history of of how the bonefish came to be, you know, such a such a kinda glamour species today. But David Pinder is kind of the subject, and he was one of the one of the earliest Bahamian gods there. And, this book, like, when I read it, some one of actually the listeners of this podcast suggested it to me when I I'll usually ask for guest suggestions, and somebody suggested you because they had read your book recently as well. And so I read it, and, immediately, like, a lot of worlds started to intersect. So many of the people that you talk about in that book, I knew from from Key West because there's a real tight connection right from there. Like, Gil Drake was a guide in

Chris Dombrowski: Key West when I was

Tom Rowland: guiding there. And yeah. Very, very famous guide, and he was in your book. And, John Dickinson was, used to run Deepwater Cay, and his his son, Paul Adams, is now over

Chris Dombrowski: at North Broadway Point.

Tom Rowland: And and even to the point of, like, you you had you had a story in there about a Coca Cola executive, and I'm pretty sure I know who who that might have been too, but, like, this whole the way that you did this just kind of intersected so so well with my world and people that I knew, and then having been over there. And I'm no expert on it. I've been over there, you know, maybe maybe 15 or 20 times. But the the issues that you brought up in there and the issues that are going on there are evident to someone that goes there for the very first time, for the most part. Like development. Like, we're talking about, you know, Montana and, you know, is it possible to love it to death? And that was a big part of your book Body of Water that

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Was a big part of that. Like You're right. What what's going on there?

Chris Dombrowski: Well, you know, it's funny. I'm I'm tend to be somebody who who just backs into stuff, you know, or who stumbles stumbles upon, the what what should otherwise be obvious. You know? And, the question that I got from a lot of friends and even my editors was, you know, why aren't you writing this book about Montana? You you've guided there for twenty years. Clearly, you can elucidate or, you know, show the same kind of dynamic taking place, in Montana. Why right why set it in The Bahamas? And the answer is, you know, I think when I first went down to The Bahamas and I met David Pinder, I didn't realize intertwined his life was with not only the bone fishing world, but, you know, as you say, the the economy of the islands, ecotourism. The root of it really is the bonefish in The Bahamas and so on and so forth. So Mhmm. I was surprised to see all those connections. And, you know, as Robert Frost said, no no surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader. And there was a lot of that, that went on for me to just watch those connections kinda click into place. So, yeah, now that I look back at it, I I I see, oh, I could have written this, not the same book set in Montana, but, I've had many people approach me in the last, years or two and say, hey. Would you think about writing a sequel about this guy in the West or or so on and so forth? And, I would have to say the answer is no because the other thing that, that worked about, me in The Bahamas is, you know, the traveler, of course, I, Chris Dombrowski, was an actual traveler to The Bahamas. Right? But the the archetypal figure of the traveler, you know, is someone who gets to see a place with fresh eyes and without a whole lot of of of prejudice or, or even struggle. You know? I mean, it's hard, I think, to write, about one's home ground. I mean, I I've lived in Montana since Yeah. Since 1995, and and, I I think I'm finally okay writing about it. I'm I'm working on a new book of nonfiction that's set in Montana, but it was way easier for me to approach this subject matter as a kind of, you know, a pilgrim or a traveler.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Chris Dombrowski: And so I think

Tom Rowland: It's almost like your qualification for writing the book is that you don't have

Chris Dombrowski: experience Exactly. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Or or much experience, and you don't have a you're not jaded. You don't have, like, preconceived notions. You're, like, learning all about this for the first time and putting the connections together for yourself.

Chris Dombrowski: Right.

Tom Rowland: And and then then asking other questions that, you know, I mean, I've been over there a lot more than you have, and I didn't know, like, a big part of this history about, like, when The Bahamas come to this crossroads of, Wow, we could be, you know, an economy driven by illegal drug trade, or is there another option? And it's like, well, you you got this bonefish that people are crazy about. How would we go that route? And then they decided to. And and that was a huge thing, but but the fact that you kinda end up there is is interesting, and then then bring David Pender's life into it and how he started guiding for $5 a day and, you know, just the the whole thing was super interesting the way that you did it.

Writing as a Walkabout

Chris Dombrowski: I'm so glad that you feel that way. I mean, I had some very fortunate, editorial help early on. Both of my editors, Patrick Thomas, who's now at San Francisco Chronicle, and and Daniel Slager, who's publisher at Milkweed, Neither of these guys fished at all. You know? So, the original manuscript that I approached them with was, far less, nuanced in terms of the, other subject matter that it it crossed paths with. You know? It was way more of a fishing book, to begin with. And then Patrick would say something like, you know, you have a sentence about the economic impact of the bonefish here. I think you need a chapter to be realistic, you know, and so on and so forth. And so, then I had to research, which is, you know I mean, if you wanna put yourself to sleep at night, just read Bahamian history before bed. I it's just absolutely exhausting. But then I'd come upon stuff like that really, really intrigued me such as, the fact that the limestone archipelago, which creates such a dynamic environment for the bonefish because of the freshwater lens that, you know, the the limestone I guess, I'll say creates because I don't have a better geological verb, on my tongue right now. But, you know, limes the limestone that allows for such a great bonefish habitat is also, a really crappy ground to grow, sugarcane on. Right? And so Right. If you don't have sugarcane, you really don't have a slave trade. And that's, you know, which led me to to kind of, start researching the slave trade in The Bahamas, which was very complex and way less, straightforward than, say, like, what went on in Cuba or or, I mean, Jamaica rather or or so on and so forth. And so, Yeah. The as soon as door doors started opening, research wise, then you you hit this phase of kind of, you know, what Joan Didion calls magical thinking and, suddenly all the connections that exist, you know, we know everything is infinitely connected. We just don't always see it or intuit it. Right. But when those connections kind of start flying open and the doors start, leading to other doors and so on and so forth, then, then it gets fun. And then of course it gets messy and you gotta go back to the edit editing floor and, kill some darlings, and, and get back, get back to the work. So

Tom Rowland: I've never written a book, but I can you know, when you're talking about all these things and, like, how how you need a chapter on this, and then, you know, you mentioned something about, like, the the the, you know, some sort of scientific, fact about a bonefish, and then now you gotta go way deeper into that. Seems like seems like that's kind of an interesting journey on writing a book to where you're you're going down roads that you didn't intend to in the beginning, but I guess people that understand what makes a book a book are kind of leading you in that way, like your editors and and other people like that. How much of how much of your book did went like that, like, down these rabbit holes that you really hadn't intended going on?

Chris Dombrowski: That's a great question. I feel like, you know, half of it, really. It's a walkabout in in in terms of, you know, I think of of writing this way. I think Ian Frazer's an incredible American nonfiction writer. He says something like wandering is acceptable in an essay, maybe preferable. I mean, he's talking about writing essays, but I I think I I like books that'll allow themselves to wander a little bit. And I think, you know, again, that that that pilgrim or traveler persona that's at the root of this book, helped engender that, that mindset. Right? I mean, if you're if you're traveling, you're and you're gonna allow yourself to wander. Right? And I and as a guide, I'm sure you know it. When you come to the water with an answer, a predetermined answer, you know you're in trouble. Right? You know, I'm gonna fish this flat. Yeah. I'm gonna fish this fly. I'm gonna find the fish here. I mean, there's no better recipe for disaster, at least in my experience. And so, I try to take that same, same mindset to the desk. Of course, it usually, takes longer. And I have friends who, you know, they write a book proposal and it goes chapter by chapter, and it says this is gonna be about this, and this is gonna be and I envy that. I really do. You know? And I'm sure that my family wished I operated in that way as well. But, but, you know, the if I know what I if I think I know what I'm gonna encounter, whether it's, you know, in the field or on the water or at the desk, I usually end up, sounding, tinny or or ending up in trouble. You know?

What Body of Water Is About

Tom Rowland: Right. Right. Well, I think that's part of the the interesting part about your book, was this kind of this kind of adventure, this journey that you went on as a writer, and then you're taking the reader on as well. And I I think that's probably, you know, where your editors were pushing you is, like, that makes a good book. Like, as as whatever you just said about Robert Frost, like, if if you're not surprised, then the reader's not surprised as well. It seems seems you know? I I can see that. So I know that some of my audience has read your book, but some of them haven't. So in order to get to a couple of the other questions, can you just give, like, like, an overview of what what Body of Water is so that we can kind of go down a couple other little roads here?

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. I'd love to. I mean, unfortunately, I never got a real good elevator speech for a book. It's a little bit, a little bit, complex, I guess. But, you know, at the center of the book, as you mentioned, is a man named David Pinder senior, who in 1958, roughly went to work for a man named Gil Drake senior. You mentioned Gil's, Gildrick's son, Gildrick junior. But Gildrick senior, in the late fifties had purchased an island in The Bahamas from the British crown, an island that was then called Crow Carrion Key and later went on to be called Deepwater Key, perhaps in the first, never thought of it this way, but perhaps in the first first stages of marketing, if you will. No one no one probably wanted to come to Crow Carrion Key, so they changed the name to to Deepwater Key. But, Deepwater Key is a small island, small little key off the Far East End of Grand Bahama, the the East end that was just ravaged by Dorian, which we'll talk about, I assume, a little bit later. But Pinder himself, had never had never fished for bonefish. He had, never fly fish for him. He had, of course, caught them, you know, with hand lines, and he'd grown up, on the East End foraging. His father was a sponger. And so when Drake hired him hired Pinder basically to, clear mangroves and and lug rocks off of the island that he intend intended to, develop for a fishing lodge. He asked Drake asked Pinder, you know, come here. Let let me show you these fish here. Have do you know where to find them? And he pointed out a school of bonefish to to David Pinder, and David, of course, said, oh, of course, I do. You know? I I've seen him, I've seen him everywhere. And, he wondered to himself, you know, Pinder wondered to himself, what what could Drake want with these fish? You know? They're they're full of bones, and they're they don't taste very good and so on and so forth. And Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: So, you

Chris Dombrowski: know, little did he know that the, the fish that he would go on the next year to to guide Drake to, the bonefish would become the crux of the, Bahamian tourism industry, you know, to the tune of a $150,000,000 a year. So the book follows, David's life through his rise as a really, a famous guide in The Bahamas. He he was the first guide in The Bahamas. He predated pretty much everyone. He was never as famous as Charlie Smith. But in, in fishing circles, he was extremely revered. You know, you mentioned Gil Drake, his Gil Drake's partner, young Gil's, fishing partner back in the days was a guy named Gui de la Val Den. And as Gui says, it was, you know, an incredible writer and fishermen and outdoorsman. But as Gui says in the book, there were many talented guides in The Bahamas, but for decades, David Pinder was famous. And so David goes on to not only build the lodge by hand, but also build its clientele over the years. And, of course, you know, we talk about the geology and the history and the natural history that surrounds the area, but but also, you know, as David's life unfolds, he, in the late, eighties, early nineties starts to develop some eye problems, some cataract problems from essentially guiding for years without polarized glasses. You know, these this is way back in the days of of Joe Brooks, who was a guest of the lodge and, you know, AJ McClain and and, David, who later in the book comes to be known as senior, senior never wore polarized glasses back, you know, back in the day. So Wow. He develops cataracts and, essentially, at a certain point, is is fired or or let go of by the lodge, and they give him this kinda meager savor severance pay of of, like, $16,000, I think it is, which I I do the math on in the book, amounts to, like, an extra, I think, 50¢ a day for every year, every day that he guided over the years. You know, when we find senior in the book, it's it's in his his later years. He just turned 86 yesterday. I spoke with his daughter, Delcina. But, you know, when we meet him in the book, he's about 79, I think, roughly. And, and he's he's entered a phase of of kind of, what I would call the, you know, the gravy days. I mean, he's he's gone through these trials, but he has this kind of immense wisdom of a person who's lived a very intentional life in one spot for, you know, seventy years or so. And so when I encounter him, I'm I'm I'm not without some problems of my own, both, emotionally and, and financially and, you know, occupationally, I guess, you could say as well. So so I come to, to really glean an immense amount of wisdom from David from David. I I was lucky enough to meet him through kind of a friend who had fished with him for for decades. And then, of course, the first time I met him, I didn't wanna meet the the wise sage who had started the bone fishing industry. I just wanted to fish for bonefish. You know? I was all the way in The Bahamas. But, after some time, I went back to to write a an article for Outside magazine, and, I spent some more time with David. And I thought to myself, man, this guy is he's not only the the tap root, the original cornerstone of the bone fishing industry in The Bahamas, but he's also that rare, human being who is so tied to the landscape that he's really inseparable from it. You know? And it was it was just, as you as I said earlier, at that point, it was when I began to kinda see this this, real to see him as a conduit to so many things, you know, race relations, economy, natural history, the the sustainability of this resource, all kinds of stuff. And of course, probably most importantly, an example of what it means to be, to be bettered by, a sustained connection with, natural and wild places, you know? And so he became a real, a dear friend and and an important, person, not only in my life, but, of course, in the narrative of the book. And and, you know, I'd say the midsection of the book is where where we find him, ailing. He's he's been forced into retirement and has no money. And he's taking some comfort in the fact that, his sons have, and then his grandson has, have gone on to be become prominent guides in The Bahamas. So he, and he has taught Mhmm. The generate generations of guides, but I'll let readers kinda go from there. As again, you know, if we're on an elevator speech, we we better be at the top of the skyscraper now, But We

Tom Rowland: went to the Empire

Chris Dombrowski: State Building. Exactly.

Prescott Smith and the Fish-With-a-Guide Debate

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well no. But that's a that's a real good recap, and it gives people kind of an idea. You know, this isn't really like a a Bonefish book, like Randall Kaufman's Bonefish book or or, you know, like that. It's it's more of this this story about bonefishing and and The Bahamas, and, like you say, like, race relations and and this this whole idea that it's mostly Americans coming down to The Bahamas and supporting this $151,000,000 economy, but yet, you know, there's there's times that, like, what Prescott Smith was doing of, like, okay. We have to stop this. Like, we we kinda need to stop some some parts of this. Like, everyone that comes to The Bahamas is gonna have to fish with a with a fishing guide even if you just go drop a shrimp off a dock somewhere. And, you know, wanting the lodges to be owned, and I I get all this. But when when all that was going on, I just couldn't help but but think, man, that is that is really that is an interesting kind of argument. That's an interesting position of being all or nothing like he was doing.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Do you want, I mean, do you want me to backtrack a little bit, or do you think your listeners

Tom Rowland: Sure.

Chris Dombrowski: Kind of, No.

Tom Rowland: No. I mean, some do. Some don't. I mean, I have people that listen all over the place. But, yeah, let's backtrack just

Chris Dombrowski: a little

Tom Rowland: bit and fill that in.

Chris Dombrowski: So kind of late in the book, Prescott comes in as as, I guess, a voice of I'm not quite sure what. You know? But where where he first appears in the book is as a, a guest at this I'll call it a town hall meeting in Freeport. But, you know, he's at a he's at a meeting in Freeport to protest a mine going in in Freeport. And what he's saying to this board of, executives of the mine who've come down is is basically like, look. Each island or key in The Bahamas exists as limestone. And when you dig into the limestone, you destroy the freshwater lens, which allows the mangroves to flourish, which allows the bait fish to flourish, which allow, you know, everything to kind of work harmoniously. So originally, you know, he comes into the book as basically saying like, Hey, look, we see what you're doing here. You're gonna destroy these islands the same way some someone did Bimini, and the fish population's gonna decline, and then you're gonna be gone and you're gonna go somewhere else. You know? And so, you know, he's essentially in that, at that point is kind of, aiming people toward that, as you said, a Bahamian owned, lodges and whatnot, which economically, I don't know that he was providing any solutions to that. He was just, you know, posing as an idea. But then later, about a year after the book came out, the whole Bahamian, you gotta fish with a guide thing, blah blah blah came out. And, that stymied me as well. I thought, this is weird. You know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I thought it was weird because, like, my experience of going down there is, you know, I might fish at a lodge for a few days and or or, like, I went to Elbow Key, which is just off of Abaco and not far from where your book takes place. And Mhmm.

Chris Dombrowski: You know,

Tom Rowland: I go down there with my family, and we wanna just kinda hang out on Elbow, but we wanna rent a boat and and, kinda knock around a little bit. Not real serious. You know, if there's a flap, maybe I'll wait it. Sure. And then I'm gonna go over and fish with you know, take my boys, and we're gonna go and fish five days with a guide. Right. But, kind of, the whole reason to go is so that we can, kind of, knock around a little bit. And then, you know, we're renting a boat. We're renting a house.

Chris Dombrowski: We're we're eating at the restaurants. We're

Tom Rowland: flying in. We're doing all of these things, and we're supporting the economy. But if you take away the idea that I'm able to rent my own boat and go with a fishing rod and just catch whatever, and I, like, what I wanted to do is, like, I know I'm gonna get the serious fishing with my boys on a guided trip in the Marls, but I wanna take my daughter and my wife, and we wanna go to some sandbars, and I wanna walk and show my daughter, like, look. That's a bonefish tailing right there. That's cool. Let's maybe see if you can catch it. Sure. You know, with me, not with, like like, you know, a guide or whatever. And we might take five casts in a day or maybe none. You know? We might just find sandals

Chris Dombrowski: or something. If you wanna sit on the log, you're gonna hear it. Purpose. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Right. I mean, but that was kind of the whole purpose that we went there instead of going to The Keys or instead of going somewhere else where or Mexico or somewhere else that you could I mean, there's a lot of locations that you could go and do a similar kind of trip. So I kinda thought, man, I don't know if they're thinking this all the way through. But then I have some other friends that go down in there and fish at at North Riding Point all the time, and they were adamant about this. They were just like, yes. This is the way, and it has to be this way. And I was just like, man, I don't know. It seems like you're just really drawing a line in the sand.

Chris Dombrowski: I mean, I love the I love the idea that that you you should have to get a license if you're gonna do that. Right? You know, if you were gonna just fish up your own shit.

Tom Rowland: I mean, Americans are totally, yeah, Americans are totally used to getting a license. Like, I thought just making an expensive license. If you wanna fish on your own, $50.

Chris Dombrowski: Right. Right. Right.

Tom Rowland: You know?

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Well, it's funny because when we went down to kinda celebrate the publication of this book with Pender family in in McLeanstown at the East End, I really wanted to take my son, Luca, bone fishing for the first time. And, I was fishing with David's son, David Junior, who fishes out of Freeport and is a legendary guide up there. And for whatever reason, Junior hadn't put my son, Luca, on the roster for you know, if you're fishing with a captain, then you don't you're then the guide then the angler doesn't need a license. Right? But Luca wasn't on that original list. I think it was a last minute thing we decided to bring him. And so he said, well, you gotta go get a license for him. And let me tell you, Tom, finding a license a fishing license in Free for was the most inane exercise I have ever been involved in. I mean, I went to this office, you know, office of government permits and such and such. No. No. You gotta go to the 2nd Floor over here. You know? I we drove around Freeport all day and finally got one. I almost got it framed for him just because it was, and, you know, every third person would say, you don't need a license. You don't need a license. And and I said, no. It's a new law. You know? No. You don't need one. You know? Anyway, it was a hoot. But, yeah, I think Wow. I I think, it was unfortunate to see, to see that whole thing unfold because there are hundreds of people a year, maybe more, who wanna do exactly what you, you know I mean, if I go to The Bahamas right now, I wanna go with my family. I wanna fish for an hour a day on on just the right tide, and, you know Right. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna

Tom Rowland: spend And I really don't think I really don't think that that's what they were going after. No. I think that there's a lot of people that go down there and and do a DIY trip and and, you know, do everything they can not to use a guide and not to, you know, to to spend as little money as possible. And, you know, I get that too, but I don't know. You know, it just it it's just kind of a funny place, and it makes it even even even kind of well, funny is not the right word because it makes it even more of a weird spot to be in now after the hurricane. Because, I mean, I have so many friends and so many people leaving out of South Florida taking ships' worth of supplies over there: drywall, plywood, roofing supplies, everything you can imagine.

Hurricane Dorian and the East End

Tom Rowland: You know, of course, food, water, diapers, medical supplies, all of this stuff over there. And and, like, Americans love The Bahamas. They love The Bahamas so much, and it's it has such a warm spot in people's heart in the in the South Florida area because they take their boats over there pretty much every weekend. I mean, there is a big population of people that goes to Bimini or goes to, you know, the Marls or goes to, you know, Abaco or goes somewhere in The Bahamas pretty much every weekend from anywhere from, you know, Jupiter to Miami. Hundreds of boats. And now those people are, like, really rallying, raising money, getting supplies, doing things that would not be done otherwise.

Chris Dombrowski: Right. Right.

Tom Rowland: And so now I mean, like, where your book took place was absolutely the hardest hit area, maybe, ever. I mean, you have a a incredibly strong hurricane moving at a half a mile an hour or one mile an hour for Three days, right? Twenty to twenty four hours. I mean, god. Just incredible. So, like, at this point, like, what do you hear from all these all of your friends there? I mean, when it first happened, we were exchanging some messages on Instagram, like, you know, how to how to try to help, how to do whatever. But, like, what as as this has kind of progressed, what do you hear now?

Chris Dombrowski: I I'm a I'm a lot more encouraged now than I was, say, a month ago. I mean, am I remembering correct? It's about six weeks since, or does that sound right?

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Six weeks. And I mean, it's late October now. I feel like that was around the September 1. Right? First, second, third. Right in there? I believe so. Yeah. So, I mean, I hear I hear actually hear encouraging things, really. I I text or, I WhatsApp with, with Delcina every couple of days. Delcina is David senior's daughter, and, they seem to be doing okay. You know? They're up in Freeport now because everything in McLean Sound, has been essentially ravaged or destroyed. You know? Many people probably saw, Marvin Thomas on CNN. I mean, he was, he's an old prominent guide from Deepwater Key who is a is a character in the book, and he was, you know, walking around Clayne's Town just throwing anything salvageable in a in a sheet and putting it over his shoulder. You know? So, people who haven't actually looked at the images of what has gone on should should take a look because the Bahamians are super, oh, just, like, such tough people. You know? And I remember when the I saw the projections for the hurricane, like, okay. I thought, though, this is gonna be a hurricane. They've endured hurricanes before, but this is maybe a once in a not a once in a lifetime hurricane. This is a once in in a millennium, hurricane. Right? I mean, this

Tom Rowland: is kinda like, the on the equivalent of, like, Andrew for The United States. Bingo. Exactly. Basically Yeah. Just wiped Homestead clean.

Chris Dombrowski: Right. Right. So, I mean, the the level of, impact is something that I I wasn't equipped to, for. You know? But, I think, you know, people are beginning their recovery. Some folks, what we did for I mean, there have been a a ton of great outreach efforts. I think, you know, GoFundMe projects have popped up everywhere. And what we did for the family was just to raise as much money as we could privately for them. And, and we did do a little GoFundMe as well just for people who wanted to go over the Internet, which I gladly I don't wanna, you know, turn this into a sales call, but would gladly, provide you the information with later on. But, you know Right. That money is going to do stuff like replace cars that were lost, literally tossed into the ocean. You know? There were I saw a couple aerial pictures of Deepwater Key, and, I mean, the the flat, just to the south of the island looked like a parking lot. There were that many cars out there. So, wow. You know, the fact that they've survived that and are moving into recovery mode says, just, you know, worlds about their constituents, and their their constitution rather. I mean, these are just incredibly strong people. So most of East End, as far as I know, is essentially, up in Freeport right now, which is, I don't know. I've heard some some kinda scary things in terms of how Freeport, is operating now. I guess, you know, when you, well, we started out talking about grizzly bears, the overpopulating. You know? But, like, when when you move, a population of people who are, in desperate need of of food and shelter and water, into another population of people that are desperate for that, I'm sure I've heard some scary things like crime wise going. You know, I haven't heard that from Delcina. She says that they're safe and and they're doing fairly well. I got a picture of senior, that I I've put up on my office window now a couple days after the hurricane, and he's he's he's impressed khakis. His shirt's tucked in, and he's wearing a really sweet tangle with a smile on his face. So kind of a an indomitable man in spirit. But other folks, you know, have have taken a little, move. And we, some some friends and mutual clients kind of, helped Miko Glinton's family get, over to, to Florida. And then Mico's family I'm not sure if this is private. We may have to edit this out later. But, Mico's family's in Illinois right now, and they're just kinda shored up trying to figure out what the next step is. They're staying with a generous, client of Mico's, I think a partner at North Riding Point. So, you know, I think they're trying to figure out what the next step is. North Riding Point is, allegedly gonna open up in December, and folks are are booking trips for for April already. On the other hand, Deepwater Key, I don't know if you saw this last week, but they closed for good.

Tom Rowland: Deepwater Keys?

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. They're closed for good.

Tom Rowland: Wow.

Chris Dombrowski: So, I mean, whether or not some new investors, heed the call and decide they're gonna, you know, reopen it, remains to be seen. But right now, I think the the club deep or Deepwater Key, had a a pretty robust GoFundMe that they are going to distribute to their, to their 50 employees. But that's, you know, all of which is to say, I think on a day to day basis, people are surviving, but what's scariest and what remains to be seen is what's gonna happen to that economy because, you know, McLean Sound, for instance, at the East End, the the lodge Deepwater Tea Club employed 50 people. I wanna say McLeanstown is a town of 400.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Chris Dombrowski: That's including kids, and and elderly people as well. So the survival of those of those people financially was entirely based on on both east end lodge, you know, and deepwater key. So now that they're now that deepwater key is gone, I don't know, you know, what's gonna happen. I think it's a, Yeah. A real wait

Tom Rowland: and see. I do I do know this, that, there has already been, an incredibly generous outpouring of financial support for The Bahamas through stuff like, you know, Johnny Morris at Bass Pro put together this this amazing campaign and has raised tons of money.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And then there like you say, there's everything from, you know, something like a a person like you would put together to these really, really organized things like Bass Pro Shops is putting together, and and they're the anglers are eager to help.

Chris Dombrowski: Man, it's been my experience with hurricanes. Just, you know, people email me right off the bat, old clients, people who read the book, how can I help? What can I do? You know? And I think what we encouraged really off the bat was, like, here's the wire information. Just wire some money as quick as you can. You know? But Right.

Tom Rowland: Man, what I've what I've been telling people lately is, like, you know, just don't forget about them because the fact that you're not hearing about it on the news anymore, and if you live in, you know, somewhere inland, it doesn't mean that it's cleaned up. I mean, my experiences with the hurricane, we went through a whole bunch of hurricanes in The Keys, and, man, you've got FEMA, and you've got, electrical trucks. Yep.

Chris Dombrowski: I

Tom Rowland: mean, it would be a convoy of electrical trucks that would come down, hundreds of electrical trucks. You would have hundreds and hundreds of dump trucks and bulldozers and all this stuff, and it still took a year or or more for The Keys to recover from some of these hurricanes to where you couldn't tell that one had gone through there. And now, you're talking about an area that, no matter how much money The United States gives, they're not going to have hundreds of dump trucks. They're not gonna have hundreds of electrical trucks. No matter what, it's it's an island in the middle of the ocean.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Freeport Airport is still closed. Right? To commercial

Tom Rowland: I don't know.

Chris Dombrowski: I think to commercial flights is. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I mean But it's gonna take

Chris Dombrowski: a while.

Tom Rowland: And that's what I keep saying, man, is just don't forget No. About this. Like like, keep keep supporting it financially and keep checking in on it and keep, you know, just kinda remember that it's gonna be a long time before, you know, a contribution is not needed. Right. Because I don't know what the Bahamian government is going to be able to do. Certainly nothing like what the United States government can do after a storm, and I'm sure everybody's doing what they can.

Chris Dombrowski: I haven't heard great things about where that aid is going, you know, the aid that's coming to directly to the government. You know? In fact, I've heard to the contrary. Like, I've heard I've heard people say, I haven't seen a water bottle yet.

Tom Rowland: Well, what right away, like, I I just looked it up. It it happened the storm happened on, September 9. Ninth. And I was down, doing some stuff in the Fort Lauderdale area, and there was, actually did a a a podcast with a guy, Matt George, and he was he was going over there because he's in, like, the cell phone kind of

Chris Dombrowski: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Business, and he was going over there right away to set up, like, some emergency kind of network so that people could actually have some kind of communication, mostly mostly set up for first responders and, you know, so that people on the ground could communicate what they needed and all this stuff. But he was going over. He was the first person that I knew that was actually going over there, and he was flying over there in helicopters and stuff. And one of the things that was was a concern was that they put the supplies down, and they were gone. Like, somebody just took them. Like, you don't know who took them, but they're gone. And so, you know, the second step is, okay, now you have to, create some sort of law. Like, you have to have some sort of law enforcement there so that you can create an area that's safe for these supplies to go and then make sure that, you know, water is getting to the people that need it, you know, and and supplies and everything. And that was kind of what was going on immediately. Like, you've got contractors over there, like, military contractors, like, setting up, you know, areas that are safe to drop because

Chris Dombrowski: Right. Right.

Tom Rowland: I mean, even, you know, in The Keys when when we had a hurricane like that, I mean, I I always said, like, you know, the first and and we had nothing like what happened there. But, like, the first couple of days are alright. And then when the ice runs out Mhmm. That's when things change.

Chris Dombrowski: Right.

Tom Rowland: Like, nobody's got any power. Right. And you've got ice, you know, you got all these coolers you filled with ice before the storm, and that's gonna last, you know, three or four days. And so, you got food, and you got ice, and you got water, and everything's kind of good, but then when that runs out, that's when that's when it starts to get a little weird because now nobody's got power. Now the food's all spoiled. Now money doesn't really mean anything because nobody's got power. You can't really you can't really buy anything, like, and, you know, so now goods are kind of currency

Chris Dombrowski: Right.

Tom Rowland: At some point. Like, it's it's just kind of a weird weird position, but I've seen hurricanes, you know, do do, do amazing things, like amazingly destructive, and then, also, like, amazingly having an ability or or because people are in this situation, you just see, oftentimes, the best in people. Like, people helping people, people donating, people, really sacrificing, and then coming together as a community like never before. And I'm sure that that that's what's gonna happen in The Bahamas as well, but it's just gonna take it's just gonna take some time, you know, like a lot of time.

Chris Dombrowski: No. I think that's really wise advice that you give to just say, hey. If you really wanna do something, check-in in in six weeks and see what you can do because it's there's gonna be just as many things due then as there are now, and and your help will be needed probably probably more than. I know, kinda through the book, I've met a a new friend, this guy from Wyoming, who used to own a lodge on, or own a cabin on Deepwater Quay. And, he and his his wife actually built the Anglican church on Sweetings Quay that, that the 30 some people of Sweetings rode out storm in. You know? And I think the the church was the only one that that the only building that really survived on Sweetings, which is just, you know, one more down from deep water. He said the same thing. You know? Check-in in a year. That's when the real work's gonna happen. And and, yeah. I mean, I haven't really wrapped my head around. It's really been tough to take, but I I'm just amazed again at the kind of strength and resiliency of those people. And, you know, when I talk to Delcina, she seems bright and cheery and moving on. You know, what's the the next thing she I remember really early on asking her, like, you know, outside of a car, like, what are your immediate needs? And, she said, well, Trinity, that's her daughter. All of Trinity school books were lost. You know? We just paid, like, $500 for those. And, so that, you know, that was one of our immediate kinda goals was to get get everything back moving as quickly as possible. But that was, like, three days after the storm, and she was talking about wanting to get her daughter back to school. So I just I mean, what kind of a huge spirit does it take to be able to to do that? And then that's that's No.

Tom Rowland: There's, like you know, going through something like that, there is this there is this you know, there are, like, these benchmark things where you're trying to restore kind of any sort of order back into your life, and school's a big one. Like, when you can get the kids back in school, like,

Chris Dombrowski: first of

Tom Rowland: all, now you can do some work that maybe you weren't able to do while they were

Chris Dombrowski: Right.

Tom Rowland: Around. But that's a that's a giant benchmark of, okay. We're making progress. Like, now the school's open, and the kids are in school, and that's huge. That's a huge benchmark. You know, the other thing I tell people too is, like, be ready to go back down there and go fishing, like, as soon as possible. Like, because that's where the economy, like, that's the economy. And, like, giving money is one thing, but you don't know who's getting it, you know? Like you say, like, there's there is who knows? Like, you who who's actually getting that money? I don't know. But when you go and you, you know, you go to North Riding Point, when they're back open and and you book a fishing guide, now that's another huge benchmark. Like, all of a sudden, now we're running trips again. Like, that's when the economy, you know, is stimulated a little bit, and people are like, okay. We're getting we're getting there, you know, and there's some hope. You You know, when people start seeing people with fly rods showing up again, that's that's that's hope. Well, that's cool, man. I I love the book. I wanna ask you one other thing.

Montana and the Flats

Chris Dombrowski: Sure.

Tom Rowland: Like, there is always and I noticed it with you too. Like, you're you're kind of a you're you're definitely a Montana guy, but you have this this love and appreciation for The Bahamas or for the Flats and in these kinda areas. And you see, like, there's tons of of of, kind of vagabond style guides that guide out Montana or Wyoming or Idaho, and then they come down to The Keys for a while. And then you have all these writers, like, you mentioned Guy Guy Dale Aldine. He's one. So many others that have a fondness for Montana and write about it. And then they also have this this fondness for a place that, you know, by by on the surface, they almost look opposite. Like, you it's hot. One's hot and flat and full of water, and the other is mountainous and and kind of cold and and full of wildlife, and, you know, it but but there's a draw.

Chris Dombrowski: Right. Right.

Tom Rowland: Like, what do you see? Why do you think there's that draw between the two places like that? It's you're absolutely right. I mean, between the two places like that?

Chris Dombrowski: It's you're absolutely right. I mean, it's like the yin and the yang. I think I say early in the book, I I upon first looking at the the flats, it was almost like, seeing the the inverse of what I'm used to seeing. You know? Everything out west is is almost is almost all vertical. You know? Your eye is constantly kind of climbing. And, on the flats, as as you would know far better than I, but, like, it's it's the opposite. Right? I mean, there's a you're looking both horizontally farther than you could ever see, but you're also looking vertically down, right, into the water. Yeah. There's some I think it's like it's almost like, you know, meeting oh, I don't know how to quite explain it. Almost like meeting your, twin that you were separated from at birth, you know, like the old, Greek myths go or something like

Tom Rowland: It's interesting.

Chris Dombrowski: Like like

Tom Rowland: Never thought of it like that.

Chris Dombrowski: I remember seeing it for the first time and thinking, oh, I've been here before, you know, even though I hadn't, of course. But, you know, the other thing about the Flash is that And

Tom Rowland: then there's the wildness.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. They make you feel small, you know, the same way mountains do. I'm sure, you know, that's part of what your son loves when he's out chasing elk around is just, feeling, feeling tiny in an immense space. And, yeah, man. I just I think, I think there's something about that. And all those guys that you, you know, that you've mentioned or alluded to, you know, the McGwanes of the world or the Harrisons of the world and, you know, those guys, I think, in addition to the supreme sport of the of the fish on the flats, were also just drawn to the, to the wildness of the country. And that's I think that's

Tom Rowland: that's Because that is that is, like I mean, when you look at something like Yellowstone National Park, that's, I guess, by argument, you could argue that that's the wildest place that we have in this country. Like, some of the deep interior portions of Yellowstone, they're really far away from roads, and and not many people go there. There's, obviously, many other wild places. But, like, you go out, and it's not every day you're gonna see a grizzly bear attack an elk or a wolf kill or something like that. But, man, you get out, like, on the Flats and Marquesas or, you know, up in the Everglades and stuff, and it's very often you see, like, a fish get eaten by a shark or, like, a bird get attacked or or, like, all this, you know, this is wild. Like, it is really wild. Yeah. And there are all kinds of creatures out there that can can sting you or stab you or or mess you up in some way or bite you. And, the other place, you know, is, like, on the interior portion of The United States. It's kind of kind of that Wyoming, Idaho, Montana area. Other than that, it'd be Alaska, I guess. And but it's I guess I guess, you know, sometimes I think about it as, like, well, I guess it's people that are attracted to the wild, are attracted to both places, and there's just this beauty, you know, in in both places. Very different beauty, but but, you know, beauty nonetheless.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. They're it's like I don't know how to describe it. I mean, I for years, I always thought people were just hun snobs. You know? Like, I couldn't understand why they, like, poo pooed pheasants or whatever or grouse or whatever. Like, once you start digging into them, they are so addictive. A, because of the, Yeah. You know, quality of points the dog gets on them, but, b, you just get to cover so much ground. And, they're actually as close to they're the upland equivalent to the bonefish, you know, in that they, they don't require a whole lot to sustain a population or a fishery, you know, but they require a few real specific things. You know? Like, if you're, you know, when you're bone fishing, you you'll go, I can't believe there's a fish there, you know, in that little of water. And same thing with Huns. Like, I can't believe there's a covey there on this barren ridge top that has basically cheatgrass and rocks. You know? But they're up there eating the the little green shoots of grass, and, it's awesome. It's really fun. And it's it's it's hard work. You know? I mean, the other, parallel that I see with bone fishing and hunt hunting is if you ask yourself at the end of the day, you did all that work for that. You know? You know? You you your dog logged 28 miles and and you walked 15 and, you shot two birds that wouldn't even, you know, fill a crock pot or whatever? You're like, yeah. I did. It was pretty awesome too. You know?

Tom Rowland: Well, that's a

Chris Dombrowski: there are

Tom Rowland: a lot of parallels. I mean, like, that's what we we were just talking about. Like, just the just the parallels between the the beauty and the, you know, even though it seems completely opposite. But then there are these critters that people like to go after, whether it's the bonefish or the elk or the tarpon or the the hunt or, you know, chukar. I've never done that either. Do you hunt chukar? Yeah. Yeah. I know they live in some pretty

Chris Dombrowski: interesting areas. Very little.

Tom Rowland: But, you know, there's just these

Chris Dombrowski: there's just

Tom Rowland: these kinda similarities between kind of the things that you pursue and the beauty that is there. And then, I guess, that draws a particular type of person, you know, to both of the areas.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. I think so. I mean, you know, it's like we were saying, it's somebody who's who's drawn to, wild places and and, discovery and surprise, and, and I think somebody who's not, well, who's interested in in in getting out of their own, their own head, their own self, their own world for for a little bit of time because those wild places and creatures can't help but draw you out of yourself, and into a bigger bigger world that's, you know, much greater and grander than anything we could contain in our own our own Yeah. Easily little brains. You know?

Tom Rowland: You are, a poet as well. You put that pretty nicely. I can understand how your mind works a little bit. So the poetry

Chris Dombrowski: Good. Let me know when you figure it out. I it's taken me forty three years, and I'm not

Tom Rowland: even Well, you know, I'm not even You know, you you you explain it well. Like, you know, it's a wild place that draws a certain type of person, and and, you put way more thought and effort into into saying it than than I do. But, I just kinda think it's a cool place, and it attracts cool people. But then you then you put a nicer spin on it.

The Guiding Life and Its Costs

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. That's a good way to put it too. I think that's true. You know? Yeah. Well, they do stick with you, don't they? I mean, you've Man, I've

Tom Rowland: already gotten in '19 died or have you died in,

Chris Dombrowski: you know, in

Tom Rowland: '91, I think, or 1990 in Jackson. And then, you know, I don't guide full time anymore, but it's it's kind of a lifestyle of that, like, taking people fishing, doing the television shows. It's all it's kind of similar, but the full time guiding stopped a a few years ago where, you know, I mean, I was on a three hundred day a year schedule for for quite some time. And, yeah, that's a good way to Really? Get far out of balance and possibly destroy a relationship. So, you know, it's not the wisest thing to do, but, you know, Key West is a pretty expensive place to live. Yeah. So sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah.

Chris Dombrowski: You you need every day you can get. Right? Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. I mean, well, I imagine though you've got

Tom Rowland: some really good

Chris Dombrowski: friends, from, from guiding them over the guiding people from over the years. And it's pretty remarkable. I think, you know, the, the the client horror stories are always fun to share, and they definitely are kind of indelible, but, you know, when you look at it percentage wise

Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure. Absolutely. A 100%. I mean, that that's kinda why the the the horror stories kinda stand out is because, really, the run of the mill stories are are these amazing people that turn out to be like family. And when you get when you're at it for twenty years or more, I mean, you you end up fishing with people that, I mean, you become as close to as as any of your friends, and and they're really like family. You know? They really are. And, and so that's why the the the one horror story stands out like a sore thumb.

Chris Dombrowski: I know. My wife describes our summers now as summer camp because, you know, we just have this constant influx of of good old friends coming into town and and fishing and enjoying themselves, and they're all, like, aunts and uncles and cousins to the kids. And so,

Tom Rowland: well, it sounds like you've made a lot of, a

Chris Dombrowski: good lifestyle. That's for sure.

Tom Rowland: Well I don't know how your four zero one k lose. Guiding guiding can be, it can be tough to make a living because, generally, the other thing about guiding is that, you know, for for you to be able to guide three hundred days a year or, you know, in a trout fishing situation, maybe maybe a trout fishing guy gets two hundred days a year in a certain area or maybe a 150. But in that in that kind of area, now it has to be Yeah. Yeah. You know, a real tourist town that can sustain that kind of you know? So the real estate reflects that. The grocery prices reflect that. Everything reflects that. So, you know, I'm I was living in Jackson Hole, Wyoming and living in Key West, Florida, probably, arguably, two of the most expensive places in the country to live. And so, you know, I mean, that that that is Yeah. That's happening.

Chris Dombrowski: Thing. For sure.

Tom Rowland: You know? Right. Kind of the drawback is, like, you know, it's it's an island, so there's not a lot of places outside outside of that that you can go. And then Jackson Hole is kind of an island in itself. I mean, you've got the Tetons on one side, the Elk Refuge on the other side. The other than going over to Idaho to live, there's really not a a place where, you know, the where where the cheap seats are. Like, the cheap seats are an hour away. You know? And north of that is Yellowstone, so there's no No kidding. Yeah. You gotta go to Idaho. Mhmm. But, you know, no complaints. I mean, the the the guide lifestyle was was amazing, but it it it does come with feed. Yes. Ditto. You know, things like that that might you know, when you're first starting out, you might not really put your arms around. Like, wow. I'm gonna be living in, you know, the most expensive area in the country. So how much is the rent gonna cost? And, you know, how many days a month am I gonna have to work? And Right. All that. But, man, guiding was nothing but good to me. And, it it it was just a a great way to to learn a lot about people and and learn a lot about communication and to just have some amazing experiences that I'll never forget.

The Writing Life

Tom Rowland: So how do people find your work? Like, Body of Water is one thing, but you've got a lot of other stuff. Like, you've got books on poetry. You said you were writing a new book. Like, how does somebody find all your stuff?

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. I mean, I have sure. Well, I do I have a website. It's just cc,liketheletterc,dombrowski.com. I think that's it. I don't check it a whole lot. But, yeah, cdombrowski.com. And, you know, my publishers have pages for me. Body of Water was published by Milkweed Editions. And then, I have three books of poems. The latest is called Ragged Anthem, and I was just out this this past spring. And, I'm working on another book of, of nonfiction. And I'm I'm, you know, I'm maybe in the bottom of the sixth or something like that. I'm I'm not in the seventh inning stretch period, although I might publish Yeah.

Tom Rowland: When I think about when I think about writing a book, man, there's, like, this romantic notion of being in the Yeah. Being in the Rocky Mountains with a with a giant pile of wood outside with a with a pot of coffee, you know, on the on the stove, snow up to the window, and you just lock yourself in there and start writing, like, all winter. I don't know if that's how it works. It probably isn't at all like that.

Chris Dombrowski: That's the the that I mean, I would say that's definitely the vision. And, I like I was saying earlier, I try to, I try to work only June through early October on the river anymore. So, you know, what, what is inevitably a pretty, Schizophrenic life can at least be a Schizophrenic life with a concrete beginning and end of the season. You know, I don't do any early spring trips, even though we have some good fish in here, But, yeah, I've got a little shack in the backyard. It's it's electric heat, so there's just no fireplace. But, yeah, I got a little shack and it's about 25 feet from the house and the dog comes out with me. And once I get the kids off to school and breakfast dishes done, I just head out there and and crank all day, go as far as the caffeine will take me, and then maybe close the shop with a glass of wine, and, and then print it out and go go from scratch the next day. But, really, I mean, I have found over the years I don't know. I can't remember which old teacher of mine said this, but, she, he or she was quoting Rodan who said, I don't have time for inspiration by which I guess he meant, like, if you sit around waiting for inspiration, you're not gonna be working. And work is really what, what, you know, pushes the pages across the desk. So, I I try to just establish as much momentum as I can. And then, of course, I I, you know, you need sanity breaks, and, you just you blame that on needing to, to get the dog, the bird dog on bird.

Tom Rowland: That dog would go crazy. That's a valid excuse.

Chris Dombrowski: My family seems to understand that one. Right? Yeah. So anyway, that's, that's the way the winter works, and I feel damn fortunate to be to be able to do it and to just be,

Tom Rowland: you know,

Chris Dombrowski: to be able to get

Tom Rowland: into the store. For the magazines or

Chris Dombrowski: work or,

Tom Rowland: online publications or anything like that?

Chris Dombrowski: Oh, yeah. I'm still writing for the magazines. Absolutely. Yeah. I do a lot. You know, I just had a bird hunting piece come out in Gray's Sporting Journal, and, I do a lot of work

Tom Rowland: for this,

Chris Dombrowski: magazine I love called the Angler's Journal. I write actually, I think I'm I'm a contributing editor there, and I write a piece just about for every every magazine, every issue that they put out. Who did I do? Oh, I just wrote a piece on, a guy named Dan Laren who used to guide McGuane and Harrison and kinda all the classic Livingston, you know, artiste types. Danny was was their guide and, a fan fascinating character. So I wrote a piece. It's kind of Yeah. I I would say I write a fair amount on the guide's life for those guys at Anglers Journal. I wrote a piece called the gospel of Jim on Harrison that was we fished a fair amount together. And, this one, although it didn't tend to be, ended up being kinda elegiac because it was published right before he passed away. So, yeah, I still do about, I'd say, four or five pieces a year that are freelance, and and I love it. It's really fun for me to get away from the, the manuscript, you know, the nonfiction, book. And I feel like I've, you know, taken the weights off my ankles, and I can just I enjoy it. Again, you know, that was another surprise to me. When I first started out as a poet, I I I thought I'll never sell out and do that stuff for magazines, and now I I

Tom Rowland: really love it. I

Chris Dombrowski: don't know.

Tom Rowland: It seems like it might be tough

Chris Dombrowski: to make

Tom Rowland: it as a poet. I mean, for any for anybody to make it as a poet. Like, not not not you. Impossible.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Unless you're No. Like Bob Dylan.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Yeah. No. It's impossible to make it. There's right. No. There's probably, you know, maybe two or three poets a year who are living off their royalties and appearance fees, and then the rest, the rest, you know, who are making royalties.

Tom Rowland: Too. Right?

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. I still I still teach a fair amount. Yeah. Every now and then I'll take a take a a gig for a semester, and I enjoy it quite a bit, but it's another, that's another, can of worms, you know, to open up, at this point, I think, in the conversation. I I I mean, I love it, but it it, you know, it takes away energy wise from from everything, especially, writing. You know? And I think it's it's probably worth noting that, like, guiding the better you are as Mhmm. Yeah. A teacher, the harder the work is. You know, the better you are as an efficient guide, the harder your job gets because you're you you know, you don't even sleep in the summer. You wake up you wake up in the middle of the night. You're thinking about the tides and the wind and this water temperature and all that stuff. And, you know, same with same with teaching. In fact, I know that some of the best teachers I ever had, they just kept a notebook next to their bed and and wrote to us students anytime they woke up in the

Tom Rowland: middle of the night. Haven't thought about it like that that before, but that's that's really, that's really very true. Like, the better you are, the harder it gets. Mhmm.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Don't I mean, don't you yeah. Don't you remember those guys from that point in your life, the guys who were able to just

Tom Rowland: totally clock

Chris Dombrowski: in and clock out and never really gave a shit? Didn't you just switch every now

Tom Rowland: and then? I've got I've got a guy in my head right now, and he was just this this cowboy, and he everybody loved him, and he didn't care if he caught anything, and he you know, you're looking at him floating down the river, and he's got his feet up, he's eating a sandwich, his people are laughing. He's, like, nobody's even got fishy, and they're on the wrong side of the river, and and he's, like, I gotta I'm gonna hit this gravel bar. I gotta take two swipes on the oars, and and now now he's floating right down the middle of the river, and they're laughing. It's like, wow. You're over there sweating. You're working your ass off trying to get somebody to catch something, and and, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, yeah. Like, god, it'd be nice to be like that guy. Well, very healthy. Yeah. You just can't. Like, that's just not in the DNA.

Passing It On and Goodbye

Tom Rowland: But But, man, we gotta get together and and go fishing. I know that, I know we'd have a good time, man.

Chris Dombrowski: Yeah. Let's let's do that. Bring your boys up here. We'll we'll, we'll get on the river and and and make sure they they've got my contact. If they wanna go hunt some birds this fall, I'd love to meet them.

Tom Rowland: Oh, be be careful what you ask for, man. I mean, they'll they'll should they'll be camping in your yard.

Chris Dombrowski: I love it. I love, yeah. I've been thinking a lot about this, you know, recently just because I've been guiding for twenty one years and, you know, there's a there's a next gen out there. And there, yeah, there's probably two or three generations new in Azula, compared to me. Right? Plenty of us old guys spend plenty of time bitching about how, you know, the new generation doesn't have enough respect, doesn't have the etiquette, doesn't have, you know, just wherewithal to conduct themselves. At least the way we But

Tom Rowland: the only one there's only one thing to

Chris Dombrowski: do with that

Tom Rowland: is is appropriate enough

Chris Dombrowski: is up for debate, but you gotta show them. Exactly. Yeah. And so I think we you know, any serious outdoors person has a a good level of secrecy to them. Right? You don't wanna show too many people the right stuff because it's, it can be ruined. Right? But at the same time, you know, we have to balance it and you have to say, alright. I'm gonna take this guy out. I'm gonna show him a few things because if I don't, then whatever the next generation does is their own business because I didn't try hard enough to, you know, affect some change. So that that's that's been a

Tom Rowland: little epiphany. For you. In

Chris Dombrowski: the sense that

Tom Rowland: I got a couple of guinea pigs. They'll they'll come up there and and, Alright.

Chris Dombrowski: Send Send them up this way. It sounds great.

Tom Rowland: No. They're they're driving every which way. I get the gas bill. I promise you, they're not afraid to drive. So Yeah.

Chris Dombrowski: Good for them, man. That's great. I envy them that early Montana. I mean, I can remember my first three summers out here like they happened yesterday, and it's it's such great country and and keep It's awesome to come out exploring.

Tom Rowland: Right on. Go do it. Go do it, man. I appreciate your time, and thank you so much. It was great to, connect with you. Awesome. And if you wanna get his book, Body of Water, that's the one that I liked so much, about The Bahamas. That's what we were talking about all day, but check out his other stuff too. Alright. Chris, thank you.

Chris Dombrowski: Thanks, Tom.