Marina Gibson: How Fishing Can Change a Life

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 900 with Marina Gibson.

Tom: What's going on, everybody? And today, we have a very interesting guest. Marina Gibson is an angler in the UK. She just wrote a book, Cast, Catch, Release. It's a very good book, coming out on June 4, right around the time this podcast will be released, so you're definitely going to want to check it out. It's not just a regular fishing book — it's a book about how fishing impacts someone's life and directs them, which is what it did for me, and I'm sure it's done the same for a lot of you, and it has for Marina. I really enjoyed the conversation you're about to hear. She's a very talented angler in the UK, has a lot of perspective, and has fished all over the place for peacock bass, payara, GTs, tarpon, permit, and bonefish. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Marina Gibson. Here we go.

Marina: Hi. I'm Marina Gibson, and I live in the UK. I'm the author of Cast, Catch and Release, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.

Tom: Alright, Marina. How are you?

Marina: Good. Thank you so much for having me.

Tom: Thanks for being on. I got a copy of your book, and it's really good — I had a good time reading it. I was glad to see you've been to some amazing places: the jungle, golden dorado, peacock bass, the Seychelles, Mexico for tarpon, bonefish, and permit, plus Atlantic salmon and all that. You've had quite a career already.

Marina: Yeah, I do feel truly lucky. I say to people all the time that fishing takes you to all these amazing places. If I'd been in any other job, I never would have traveled to these places — I probably would have gone on beach holidays for a week and lay in the sun. But with fishing, I usually come back with a hand tan and maybe panda eyes. I definitely owe it to fishing for taking me to all these amazing places.

Tom: You have an interesting path to fishing that we'll get into. One thing I noticed right away — I have three kids myself, two boys who both like to fish. My middle son just got back from a trip that started with two months in New Zealand, and in your book you were in New Zealand too, but I didn't see any fishing there. Is there no fishing in New Zealand?

Marina: It's a bit of a depressing story, actually — I lived there for two years and probably fished maybe three times, just with spinning rods. I didn't even fly fish out there. I was there studying, and I'd only gone in the first place to see friends from school. I was only meant to stay a month and ended up staying two years. I never even ventured to the South Island, I was in the North Island the whole time, and fishing at that point in my life was really nothing. I have memories of fishing with my family and my mum, but I never thought I could just independently go fishing — I thought I needed someone helping me or taking me. It wasn't until I got back to London that things started to change, so maybe it was already brewing in New Zealand.

Tom: When I read the part of your book about going back to London, there's a scene at a store with your mom where you have a choice between two things, and I thought that was a real turning point in your life. I want to get into that, but not quite yet — first I want to ask you some questions to lighten the mood. This is the hot seat. We'll get to know each other a bit, then go back into that story of getting off track and fishing bringing us both back in different ways, and eventually making a career out of it. For anyone who doesn't know the book, it's Cast, Catch, Release: Finding Serenity and Purpose Through Fly Fishing, by Marina Gibson, out June 4. Highly recommend it. Alright — you ready for the hot seat?

Marina: Yes.

The Hot Seat: Quick-Fire Questions

Tom: Would you rather drive or fly?

Marina: Fly.

Tom: Which is more important, mindset or skill set?

Marina: I'd say mindset.

Tom: That's what I say too. Chocolate or vanilla?

Marina: Chocolate.

Tom: Text or call?

Marina: Text.

Tom: Favorite social media platform?

Marina: Instagram.

Tom: Do you answer every comment, or do you never look at them?

Marina: Sometimes I'm good, sometimes I'm bad.

Tom: Me too. Would you rather have a million dollars now or ten million later?

Marina: A million now. Actually — wait, I want ten million later. I misheard the question the first time. Ten million later.

Tom: Okay, long term. Saltwater or freshwater?

Marina: Freshwater, but only because of the Atlantic salmon.

Tom: That leads to the next one — in your opinion, the toughest fish to catch?

Marina: Permit.

Tom: Good answer. And the toughest fish to fight?

Marina: Tarpon.

Tom: Good answer — two of my favorites. One thing you've changed your mind on in the last two years?

Marina: Where I live.

Tom: We'll get into that later. One thing you've learned in the last year that's made you money?

Marina: Hopefully, how to write a book. Thank you for that one.

Tom: We'll find out June 4. One thing you do daily that makes a difference in your health?

Marina: That's a good one — I'm not sure, I feel very unhealthy at the moment. But right now I have a new passion, gardening. I'm at an age where I like gardening, and it's giving me a new lease of life.

Tom: Are you planting food or flowers?

Marina: Just food right now. I guess that leads to long-term health too, since it's all healthy stuff.

Tom: Of course — and organizing, doing things with your hands, that's good for your brain. Would you have a reptile as a pet?

Marina: Yes.

Tom: Wow, a very enthusiastic yes. Have you had one?

Marina: Yes, I had a pet snake and a gecko. I'd love to get another snake.

Tom: If you come to Florida, you can take home a python — we're trying to get them out of the Everglades. One tool you'd choose to survive on an island?

Marina: A fishing tool — probably a net. A big net, like a throw net, not a regular fishing net, because that wouldn't get you far.

Tom: A cast net could definitely feed you. What was the most challenging thing about writing a book?

Marina: The time it took, and the time and energy it took away from everything else in my life.

Tom: What was the easiest thing about writing a book?

Marina: The nicest thing was revisiting my life, including parts I didn't really want to revisit, but it was good to write about — almost therapeutic, like keeping a diary.

Tom: Now everybody gets to read it. One way you think AI might change the future?

Marina: Make people dumb.

Tom: It's already making people dumber. A movie that makes you laugh?

Marina: I'm thinking Yellowstone, though that doesn't really make me laugh — it makes me laugh, cry, everything. I've just finished the whole thing.

Tom: I fell off it around the last season, honestly, even though both my boys were living in Bozeman at the time. But did you watch 1883 and 1923?

Marina: Yes.

Tom: Even better — I thought both of those were far better than the main series. 1883 in particular was incredible.

Marina: Yeah, when I finished Yellowstone the other day I was lost — I didn't know what to do with myself, because it's been my life. When I have downtime, I'm all about Yellowstone, 1883, or 1923.

Tom: That's what they're hoping — that when they release the next one, following the character who takes off to the Four Sixes ranch, you'll be all in.

Marina: Another one of Spencer, please.

Tom: Yeah, we've got to find out what happened to him. Taylor Sheridan really hit his stride — I don't know where he gets that kind of creativity, but he's obviously done it. You've been to some incredible destinations — what's another one you'd like to visit?

Marina: My favorite species is Atlantic salmon, and my second favorite is tarpon, and I haven't been tarpon fishing in almost six years, so I'd love to do that trip again. Otherwise, something small in the salt, since I'm normally salmon or trout fishing.

Tom: Tarpon is an incredible fish, so many people go nuts for it — definitely one of my favorites too. Do you have a book you've gifted more than once?

Marina: I've gifted Matching the Hatch, the little pocketbook.

Tom: And the last question — one piece of advice you live by?

Marina: I know it sounds cringey, but: be kind, stay as calm as you can, and be as positive as you can, because life is hard for everyone. Everyone goes through ups and downs, so just try to be positive and as kind as you can.

Tom: I like it. So let's talk about your book. What was the motivation to write it?

Writing Cast, Catch, Release

Marina: Honestly, I didn't have any motivation, because I never thought I'd be writing a book — it was never a goal of mine. Even today, I feel like I would have loved a few more years to write it, because there was pressure to get it finished, and I feel like I could have revisited it for another three years. But you have a time frame and have to get it done. Still, I'm proud of it. One day, a guy called Tris Payne from London contacted me asking if I wanted to meet. It was during COVID, so we met on Zoom, and he asked where I wanted to be and what I wanted to achieve, and then whether I'd ever write a book. I said I'd never thought about it, and he said, well, I think we have a story here. So he got me to do a proposal, we sent it out, and sold it to a UK publisher, Hodder. Then it went out to US publishers, and Simon & Schuster/Scribner bought it in the US. It was crazy — from one day to the next my mind was free, I was writing articles, and then suddenly I was writing a book. Everything changed, all my priorities.

Tom: It's interesting how you weave together the life cycle of the salmon and your own life cycle and relationships throughout the book. Did you come up with that idea yourself, comparing and contrasting them like that?

Marina: Yeah — my original proposal had every chapter about a different species of fish, but the whole structure changed while I was writing and expanding on it. Atlantic salmon hold a very special place for me because I was brought up around a family that loved them, and the species has run as a constant through my life, even more so now that we lease a salmon beat. I wanted to write about how incredible this species is, because my book isn't just a fishing book — it's more of a personal journey, and I hoped people who don't fish would read it too, since it's about life's ups and downs as much as it is about fishing. I wanted people who know nothing about Atlantic salmon to learn about them, so more people would care, because they're in trouble — it's a bit like the eel, which migrates thousands of miles the same way. It's a shame to see such an incredible species endangered — how could we let that happen? It's depressing. So as I wrote about the salmon, it made sense that it correlated with growing up and going through things in my own life, and I wanted to intertwine the two.

Tom: I think you did a really good job with that. There are a couple of things I'd like to cover for this audience, since I'd say it's more of a saltwater crowd. Do you know who Ted Williams is — the famous baseball player who wrote a book called The Big Three? His big three were tarpon, bonefish, and Atlantic salmon. That was my first exposure to the Atlantic salmon, and I still haven't fished for one myself — I feel like I'll get there someday. Given that you've fished for tarpon, bonefish, permit, milkfish, GTs, peacock bass, payara, and all these other amazing fish, how does the Atlantic salmon stack up against them, and what is it about that fish that drives you and other people to obsession?

The Allure of Atlantic Salmon

Marina: Such a good question — there are so many reasons. I think spey casting with a double-handed rod is the most beautiful cast to watch. With a double-handed rod you have two hands on it, so you feel very grounded — there isn't this other hand doing an intense hauling motion away from your body like with a single-handed rod. There are so many different casts — the snake roll, the snap cast, the double spey — so it's really difficult to get bored of it, because you tick off one level and move to the next. When you cast out with a double-handed rod and let the fly swing, you're just concentrating on the swing, thinking, wow, that was a good cast, surely there's a fish there, surely it's going to see my fly — that's going through your head the whole time. The casting itself is almost 50% of why I love it. When I'm spey casting and salmon fishing, I'm in my zen, in that meditative, happy place. And the take of an Atlantic salmon is a heart-stopper — unlike a gamefish, a GT, or a tarpon where you're strip-setting, with a salmon you let it take the fly and you're not allowed to react. There are these seconds where you're waiting to lift the rod, waiting for the salmon to turn or go back into its lie, and that moment is the most incredible feeling and also the worst, because you don't know if it's going to stay on. They're good fighters, but that's not one of my top three reasons for loving it — it's more that you get so addicted to the pursuit. People who've never fished for them often start in summer, when there's a lot of sea trout around too, giving you a chance at multiple fish, or in autumn when the fish are aggressive and heading toward spawning. Then there's the mission of catching a springer — there's a river in Scotland that opens in January, and you're out there, sometimes in the snow, trying to catch the biggest, brightest spring fish. It's an ongoing addiction; you can never have enough of it. On top of that, you're fishing for something that's survived so much — in the river, out at sea, back in the estuaries, back in the river — and you've intercepted that fish and get to see it go back. When I was younger, we used to kill most of the Atlantic salmon we caught and take them home, so fishing for them now is a very different world. But actually, when I caught my first salmon at age eleven, I put it back — I had the choice, and my mentality was never to keep them. I have kept a few, in Iceland, where they have a sustainable run, and the odd one in the UK, but now most rivers are catch and release. I'd rather take a stocked fish — do you have stocked ponds in the US where you can take fish for the table?

Tom: Yeah, we do. There are places for trout fishing where people routinely harvest, and put-and-take fisheries where they'll stock a stream and people will literally follow the truck and catch fish as fast as they can, though those fishermen aren't interested two weeks later. Then there are holdover fish that start acting more native, eating insects instead of pellets, and if the temperature holds, they can hold over for a year. All over the Rocky Mountain West you have catch-and-release-only, fly-fishing-only streams, but there are places where people harvest trout too, especially lakes more than rivers. It's almost self-governed at this point — if you have 800,000 people visiting a river in a summer and everyone kept one fish, there wouldn't be many left. In the ocean it's different — we keep fish all the time, and some, like hook-and-line yellowtail snapper, are very sustainable to keep; there's not much catch-and-release yellowtail fishing because people want them for the table, and they're hard to catch one at a time — that's actually why fluorocarbon line was invented. We don't keep permit much, but there's nothing wrong with keeping certain fish in the right circumstance — we want to eat them, it's the healthiest food. But the Atlantic salmon doesn't seem like a fish where you catch a lot in a day, unlike yellowtail snapper or jack crevalle. With tarpon you might catch a few in a day on occasion, usually one or two on fly. With permit, you temper your expectations — one all week is a good week. Where does the Atlantic salmon fall in terms of expectations — one a day, one a week, or are there days you can really crush them?

Marina: Since your listeners are mostly saltwater-based, I'd say the closest comparison, in terms of difficulty and how it feels, is a permit. You could fish for a week and not catch anything, then potentially catch two or three in a week, and when you catch one it's like, wow, what just happened — everyone goes crazy, mostly happy for each other, though some people get weird about it, especially online. I don't know if the permit community has this, but the Atlantic salmon community online is super bitchy — if someone posts a fish with a weight or size estimate, people will jump on it and say it's not accurate, or accuse them of lying, even send death threats. It's a strange community, though not secretive like trout fishing, where people guard their spots — because salmon are migratory, a fish caught yesterday has likely moved on by tomorrow, so people are fairly open about where they fish. It's also very weather dependent — you could be on a spate river that hasn't had water in a long time, and then it rains, the fish stack up and all come in at once, and you could catch ten to your rod.

Tom: So that's the ultimate scenario — no rain at all, then you get rain and hit the day perfectly?

Marina: It depends on the time of year — that's a summer, spate-river situation. I'm on the River Tyne in the north of England, and in summer we get low conditions, fishing little fast pockets early morning and late at night. An influx of water can bring in more fish and also just gets the existing fish moving again, freshening things up. So you're very weather- and water-dependent. Some rivers, especially in Scotland, can be very expensive, but plenty of association water is cheap — maybe £20 a day — or you might get invited to fish somewhere. There's a service called FishPal where you can book most UK rivers for salmon and sea trout, though the downside is people wait for good catch reports before booking, whereas in the old days people just booked and fished regardless of conditions. It's complex — unlike permit fishing, where you can book tides or a week around your holiday, salmon fishing is so weather dependent. But if you don't get your fly in the water, you'll never catch a fish, so it's better to show up than not.

Tom: That's the exact question clients ask — should I come on this tide or that one? In the Florida Keys we have a tide difference of four to eight hours, so low tide on the ocean doesn't mean low tide in the backcountry for hours after, and if you know the tides you can always find water somewhere. My answer is usually: I'm going fishing every day regardless of weather. You can have perfect tides, but if it's blowing 30 and raining, I'd rather have nice weather and find a place to fish, since we can't do anything about the weather. You could also have perfect weather and tides in January and still have less chance at tarpon, since the big migrators just aren't around then. So roll the dice, come down at the best time of year for what you want, and book the best guide you can, because the guide dictates more than tide or weather. A great guide can produce fish on the worst day, while a bad guide can waste a perfect one.

Marina: Compared to permit or tarpon, Atlantic salmon generally don't feed once they're in the river — I don't think a salmon fresh from the ocean is going to snap at food in its first week in the river. Once they're in, their bodies go through changes and they basically starve themselves until spawning. So you're not really offering food, you're hoping your fly excites, annoys, or surprises them into taking it. There are endless theories about why a fish takes or doesn't. Even the best caster might not catch a fish in a week, while someone who's never cast before goes out and catches one — there were two stories this year on our beat: one fish taken just off the bank when a cast went wrong and started drifting upstream, a 17-pound fish that took the fly; and a guest who got their fly stuck in a tree, yanked the rod, hit a rock, and hooked a salmon on their very first cast. So salmon fishing really comes down to luck as much as skill — it helps to cast well and swing a fly properly through a pool, but even a messy cast can connect if you're lucky. It's a puzzle for everyone; you never reach a level where you're just catching heaps of fish. You have to work and be lucky.

Tom: Permit fishing is a lot the same. One of the best days I ever guided, we were trying for barracuda after a cold front, and the barracuda weren't around, but the permit were everywhere. I hadn't brought any crabs for spin fishing, but I had a fly rod, so I taught the client to fly fish on the spot, and he caught one, barely able to get the fly past his feet. The week before, a rep for a rod company who could cast a fly into a teacup at ninety feet didn't catch one at all — it just doesn't always work out that way. It's funny that these fish aren't eating, yet the flies tied for Atlantic salmon are some of the most beautiful for any fish — I wonder where that art form came from. Even someone who's never gone salmon fishing could look at a coffee-table book of these flies and think they're beautiful, just from the colors and proportions. How did Atlantic salmon fly tying develop into what we see today?

The Art of Atlantic Salmon Fly Tying

Marina: I have no idea who tied the first Atlantic salmon fly, but I know they used to fish with much bigger rods and split cane, so the classic patterns were tied on single hooks that were huge compared to what we use now — sometimes we fish tiny size-18 flies today. Actually, I'd recommend a film for anyone who wants a bit of history or just something beautifully done — it's called Kiss the Water, about Megan Boyd.

Tom: I don't know that one.

Marina: It's amazing — she was one of the most famous fly tiers in the UK, ever. She died a few years ago, sadly, though she'd had a great life. She tied flies for the royal family and was so admired that the Queen invited her to Buckingham Palace, and she politely declined because she needed to stay home and look after her dogs. It's a wonderful story — highly recommend it.

Tom: That brings up a question I had written down about access to Atlantic salmon fishing. You've mentioned public water and a lot of expensive private water — if someone's just getting started, is it attainable, or do you need connections? That's been one of our challenges in the US too, getting new people into the sport, since they often don't know where to go or how to access water. What's access like for Atlantic salmon?

Access to Fishing Water: UK vs. the US

Marina: Almost 100% of the rivers and lakes in the UK are private, so you have to buy a fishery ticket from whoever owns or leases the water. There are syndicates or associations you can join — some have long waiting lists, others you can walk straight into — or you can buy a single day ticket through a service like FishPal, or directly from a local estate. Generally, across the whole UK, you have to find out who owns the water before fishing it, and that's true for every species, including carp, which is huge over there. There are some free stretches — canals are generally free, and a few town or city stretches — but it's unusual, and especially for salmon, you almost always need a ticket.

Tom: Have you ever fished the Rocky Mountains? I can't imagine what it would feel like coming from all that private water to a state like Idaho, where public land is marked green on the map and it's almost entirely green — Wyoming, Montana are similar. You can fish anywhere in Yellowstone National Park, and there's genuinely a lifetime of water — you could try to walk every stream in the park available to fish and still not finish. I think in the US we take that for granted — we have ocean all the way around, and if there's a boat ramp, you can go almost anywhere. In many states, public access follows the high-water mark, so as long as you're below that line, which is most of the year, you can walk right in, even past private land, and landowners mostly just accept it because it's within the law.

Marina: So if I wanted to go fish in Montana, how much would that cost?

Tom: An out-of-state license — a day, three-day, seven-day, or annual option. An annual out-of-state license might run a couple hundred dollars, a day license around $30. You might want a guide if you don't know what you're doing, which costs more, but you don't have to have one — there's so much you can do on your own with books, websites, and social media to help. And if you're willing to walk further than the next person, you can often have water to yourself.

Marina: That's incredible — that should be on your list, a Rocky Mountain road trip with a car, a tent, and fishing rods.

Tom: We have the Bureau of Land Management, National Forests, and National Parks, each with their own camping rules — sometimes you need to check in and there's a small fee, sometimes it's free, but once you learn the rules you can spend a whole summer just wandering and fishing.

Marina: Yeah, you really have it all. I've always wanted to do a US road trip — I assumed I'd need to save up a lot of money, but it sounds like you could actually do it fairly cheaply.

Tom: You can, though there are certainly places worth paying for and guides worth booking for experiences you couldn't get otherwise. But especially with trout fishing, so much can be done on foot, even though some of the best water is only accessible by drift boat or raft through canyons you simply can't walk into. I think we take that abundance for granted here.

Tom: What other country have you fished that you feel has tremendous opportunities?

Fishing Adventures in Brazil, Australia, and Beyond

Marina: I love Brazil — we just took a hosted trip to Agua Boa Lodge, flying into Manaus, which I'd recommend staying in for a few days since there's a lot to see, and the Amazonian food is honestly my favorite in the world. But what I love most is the wildlife around the fishing — it's like a river safari, with otters crossing the river and sounds you've never heard, on top of exciting peacock bass fishing.

Tom: Is it mostly peacock bass, or is there bycatch? I saw a recent payara on your Instagram.

Marina: You can catch catfish, payara, arapaima, and lots of different peacock bass species, plus arowana — the sneaky-looking one.

Tom: They jump and grab things out of trees — amazing fish. We take the peacock bass around Miami and South Florida's canals and ponds for granted too, some really big ones in public and private water. Brazil is on my list, and I had a really good time fishing Australia.

Marina: Where did you go?

Tom: The Gulf of Carpentaria. Australia is almost a mirror of the US — it has a peninsula reaching toward the equator just like Florida does, and the vegetation looked almost identical. We went north by mother ship, which was like heading south here, and stopped at river mouths catching over 50 different species. The only one exactly the same as home was cobia; the permit there was an Indo-Pacific variety, slightly different and honestly easier to catch. There was also a small tarpon-like fish called an oxeye herring — where we'd get excited catching one baby tarpon, these were more like catching twenty in a day.

Marina: Is that because of fishing pressure?

Tom: No, I think they just have different habits — looking like a tarpon doesn't mean acting like one. There was also a fish like a snook, the barramundi, a genuinely tough, armored fish — we actually have one stocked pond in Florida where you can catch barramundi.

Marina: Did you have blue bastards, or is that somewhere else?

Tom: We didn't — my friend Jako Lucas catches those somewhere, I think Australia. We saw hardly any other boats out there, and flying in at dusk there wasn't a single light anywhere — completely dark, which was the coolest thing, similar to how the Everglades still feels compared to more developed parts of the country. What about carp — do you fish for them?

Marina: I used to more than I do now — there was a stage I was obsessed, my guilty pleasure. I've done traditional carp fishing with boilies —

Tom: What's a boilie?

Marina: A ball of bait in different flavors that you put on your hook — that's coarse fishing, though carp anglers prefer to call it carp fishing. I've done a lot more carp on the fly, though.

Tom: We have carp on the fly here too, a lot like redfishing — sight-casting to tailing fish in clear water. Do you get that kind of opportunity there?

Marina: Yes — I've heard you have more wild river carp than we do, since most of ours, unless they're escapees, are stocked. In summer you can literally see them sunbathing in the shallows. They're strong and surprisingly difficult, since they'll push your fly around without taking it, so you often need a six- or seven-weight rod for the bigger stocked carp. Carp fishing is actually one of the biggest sectors of the sport here.

Tom: My sister lived in England and used to send me issues of Angling Times, which looked exactly like the National Enquirer here — same tabloid format, just about carp fishing instead of celebrities. I found it fascinating how serious people are about it, with detailed articles about boilie recipes the way we'd write about fly patterns or casting technique.

Marina: I've heard carp fishing is one of the main reasons people get divorced in the UK, because a lot of carp anglers camp out at carp lakes in a tent — called a bivvy — for longer than their partner would like.

Tom: We have a similar phenomenon with ice fishing — people set up heated houses on frozen lakes and use it as an excuse to get away and drink all weekend.

Marina: Exactly right.

Tom: Equal-opportunity escape. I've really enjoyed this conversation, and I want to hear the story about the rods, because it's crucial to your book, and it mirrors something in my own story. When I went to college I got away from fishing, even though I'd fished with my dad growing up — I started partying instead. Then something drew me back, and I ended up working in Yellowstone because I wanted to fly fish for trout, and it changed the entire trajectory of my life. Reading your book, I noticed a similar turning point involving your mom in a store — can you tell that story?

From Office Job to a Life of Fishing

Marina: It's amazing how fishing can deeply change people's lives, save people, even. Through my late teens, my parents had told me that when I turned 21 I'd get something that would last forever, an heirloom, most likely jewelry, and after that there would be no more big presents. So before I turned 21, my mum and dad were asking what I wanted, and we ended up in a tiny shop in Stow-on-the-Wold, in the Cotswolds, where I grew up. I tried on a ruby ring, thinking maybe I'd get a piece of jewelry to pass down, but it felt like an expensive decision, so I said we could always come back. We left the shop, and it wasn't actually until after I turned 21 — because I kept putting it off — that things came to a head. I think it was a few months after my birthday, and my mum had invited me to Scotland and suggested we get me some fishing rods instead. As soon as she said it, I knew that was the idea — they'd be mine, my own gear, lasting me forever the same way the jewelry would have. I got a Sage One double-handed rod and a Greys single-handed rod. I still have the Sage; unfortunately my friend had the Greys rod when their car was broken into, and it was stolen. But getting your own gear gives you a real sense of ownership — it becomes your hobby rather than something you're just borrowing, and it stops feeling casual. That's really what pushed me to fish more.

Tom: And once you have your own gear, you launch into this whole exploration and learning process — you realize you don't need someone to take you, you can just go, and you get better and better until eventually you decide you want to do this for a living, even without knowing exactly what that looks like at first. How did you decide to pursue it and eventually make money from it?

Learning Through Frustration and Enjoying the Journey

Marina: Before I answer that — isn't it funny how, looking back, that early learning phase feels like it would be amazing to relive? The first time you go out by yourself and have to learn a knot on the job, there's something so special about that. Honestly, if I had the chance, I'd go back and do it all over again, because in a way those early days were even better — now that this is our life and our industry, those simple challenges aren't as special anymore. Back then you were a sponge, learning so much so fast, whereas now our brains are already full of information.

Tom: At this point, if you learn one new thing a day, that's amazing, whereas back then you'd learn a hundred new things in a single outing — that whole journey is the most incredible part of it. What would be amazing about rewinding time is realizing, in the moment, that it's actually the best it's ever going to be, because there's a real temptation to get frustrated instead — watching other people catch fish while you're stuck in the trees, and then, all of a sudden, something clicks, and you start stringing lessons together across different days. That's the best feeling, even though at the time it's also full of frustration. If I could go back, I'd want to re-experience it all while realizing how good it actually was, without the frustration — except maybe the frustration is exactly what makes it so good, the overcoming of fears and challenges.

Marina: It is. If it had all been too easy, it wouldn't have felt the same. Back then I was working in an office nine to five, and when I went fishing that was all I thought about. Now, even on a fishing trip, I'm thinking about emails and admin, because there's so much work involved in actually being in the industry. That's why a trip with no cell signal is the best now — it's the only time I can just focus on the fishing again.

Tom: I can tell you, being just a bit older than you, that there will come a time when you look back and wish you could return to a trip where all you were thinking about was work and building your career — because right now, in the middle of it, that's exactly what you're living. The frustrations you're feeling now, while you're building your career and just wrote this book, are going to look like the best part in hindsight. So just enjoy the journey while you're in it.

Marina: Enjoy the journey wherever you are.

Tom: Exactly, even though that's the hardest thing for most people to actually do. On the topic of your book — when you got your rods and started fishing that first little spot near home, having the freedom to make mistakes, lose fish, and try things without asking permission is what really teaches you, in a way a guide never can. A guide will shortcut your learning and get you into fish fast, but if all your fishing is done with the perfect gear, on the best water, at the best time, you'll never develop the same skill as someone who had to figure it all out with no restrictions at all.

Marina: Absolutely. It's the same with casting — someone who learns purely through weekly lessons will be good, but not as good as someone who taught themselves to cast under overhanging vegetation just to reach a fish, because they had to think for themselves rather than follow a rule about why something can't be done.

Tom: Exactly — people often say you can't get a fly under a bush simply because no one ever showed them how, when really it just takes creativity.

Marina: Love it.

Tom: This has been a great conversation, and we've barely scratched the surface — we should do it again. Tell everyone where they can find you, since I'm sure some listeners in England would love to fish your beat.

Marina's Fishing School and Where to Find Her

Marina: My social media is Marina Gibson Fishing. My fishing school is at northernfishingschool.com, and if you want to come salmon fishing with us on the River Tyne, that's buywellsalmonfishing.com — it's all linked in my social media bio.

Tom: How does the fishing school run?

Marina: We're open 365 days a year, so you can come for a day, half a day, or a full week. Our beginners' course usually runs two days, but you can book a whole week if you like. We offer salmon fishing, trout fishing, and some coarse fishing on a lake — lots of different options.

Tom: Is the school right on the River Tyne?

Marina: No, actually it's in North Yorkshire. We moved to Northumberland, near the Tyne, about an hour and a half from the school, since I wanted to be close to the salmon fishing beat, which we're now heavily involved with — I have a manager running the school day to day.

Tom: One thing that's different between our countries — you say the River Tyne, while we'd say the Tyne River, like the Colorado River or the Mississippi River. I have no idea why it ended up that way.

Marina: I have no idea either — it would sound so strange the other way around.

Tom: That's exactly how it would sound to us the opposite way.

Marina: We also measure ourselves in stone.

Tom: Completely different unit of measure, on top of the spelling and pronunciation differences — even a word like favorite.

Marina: Yeah, the US publisher had to go through the whole book and change all the spelling.

Tom: I hadn't even thought about that, but Scribner and Simon & Schuster is a big publisher, so I wish you all the best with this book. We talk so much on this podcast about people who decide not to go down the expected road and instead quit their job to become a guide, an artist, or something entirely different, and you've clearly done that successfully. It's been great talking with you, and good luck with the book — out June 4, so everyone go check it out.

Marina: Thanks so much, Tom. It was great to be here.

Tom: Thank you. Okay, that's it for this week. We'll be back with another guest next week. See you.