Jeff Dudan is a seasoned career CEO who shares invaluable insights on business scaling and growth strategies in this episode of the Tom Rowland Podcast. Drawing from his extensive experience in executive leadership, Dudan provides practical advice for entrepreneurs and business leaders looking to expand their organizations. In this conversation, he reveals specific strategies for scaling companies, discusses the critical principles of organizational expansion, and shares leadership wisdom that applies across industries. Whether you're running a startup or managing an established business, the frameworks and approaches Dudan outlines could fundamentally change how you think about growth.
Scaling a business effectively requires focusing on organizational expansion, leadership principles, and team building. Jeff Dudan emphasizes growth strategies that balance rapid expansion with sustainable systems, ensuring companies can scale without sacrificing quality or culture. The conversation covers practical frameworks for building teams that support long-term growth objectives.
Jeff Dudan is a seasoned career CEO who specializes in business scaling and organizational growth. With extensive experience in executive leadership positions, he provides practical guidance to entrepreneurs and business leaders on expansion strategies, team building, and the leadership principles necessary for sustainable company growth.
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Shop Star brite →Jeff Dudan's career as a CEO has given him a unique perspective on what it actually takes to scale a business from the ground up. In this conversation with Tom Rowland, he breaks down the fundamental principles that separate companies that grow sustainably from those that flame out. The discussion moves beyond theory into the practical realities of organizational expansion—the systems, the people decisions, and the strategic thinking required at each stage. Dudan shares how he's navigated the critical inflection points where many businesses struggle, and what he's learned about maintaining culture while scaling rapidly. The full breakdown of his scaling framework starts early in the episode.
One of the most valuable aspects of Dudan's experience is how his leadership principles apply regardless of industry. He discusses the core competencies that every executive needs to develop, and how these skills become even more critical as organizations grow. The conversation explores team building at scale—not just hiring people, but creating systems that allow teams to function effectively as the organization expands. Dudan reveals specific approaches he's used to maintain alignment and accountability across growing teams, and shares insights on the common pitfalls that derail otherwise promising companies. His insights on building effective leadership teams begin around the middle section of the conversation.
Hear Jeff Dudan break down the systems that scale businesses
Scaling isn't just about doing more of what already works—it requires fundamentally different strategic thinking at each stage of growth. Dudan walks through the decision-making frameworks he uses when evaluating expansion opportunities, and how to know when your organization is actually ready to scale. The discussion covers the infrastructure and systems that need to be in place before aggressive growth makes sense, and the warning signs that indicate you're scaling too fast. He shares specific examples of strategic decisions that either accelerated or hindered growth in his experience. The strategic framework for expansion decisions unfolds in the latter part of the episode.
Weekly insights on fishing strategy, conservation, and the disciplines that transfer across pursuits.
SubscribeBeyond high-level strategy, Dudan gets into the practical, tactical advice that entrepreneurs can implement immediately. He discusses the common mistakes he sees business leaders make, particularly in the early stages of scaling, and offers specific corrective approaches. The conversation touches on everything from hiring decisions to financial planning, from operational systems to customer retention during growth phases. What makes this particularly valuable is how Dudan connects these tactical decisions back to the broader strategic vision—showing how day-to-day choices either support or undermine long-term scaling objectives. His practical implementation advice is woven throughout the entire conversation.
Don't miss this one.
Essential insights for anyone building or scaling a business
This conversation with Jeff Dudan is one of those episodes that applies whether you're running a fishing charter business, building a product company, or leading any kind of organization. What I appreciate about Jeff's approach is how practical it is—he's not talking theory, he's sharing what actually works when you're in the CEO chair making decisions that affect people's livelihoods and the future of the company.
The frameworks he lays out for scaling, the leadership principles he emphasizes, the team-building strategies—these are tools you can actually use. And what's interesting is how many of these concepts transfer across completely different pursuits. The discipline required to scale a business well has a lot in common with the discipline required to master fishing or any other skill at a high level.
If you're building something, growing something, or leading people in any capacity, Jeff's insights are going to be valuable. This is one of those conversations worth listening to more than once—there's a lot packed in here. Don't skip this one.
The most important factors when scaling a business include having the right leadership principles in place, building effective teams that can handle growth, and creating systems and infrastructure before attempting rapid expansion. Strategic decision-making frameworks and maintaining organizational culture during growth are also critical success factors.
Jeff Dudan is a seasoned career CEO with extensive experience in executive leadership across multiple organizations. He specializes in business scaling, organizational growth, and implementing strategies that help companies expand sustainably while maintaining quality and culture.
According to Jeff Dudan, the most important leadership principles for CEOs include building strong teams, maintaining clear strategic vision, creating accountability systems, and developing the core competencies necessary to guide organizations through different growth stages. These principles transfer across industries and company sizes.
A business is ready to scale when it has the proper infrastructure, systems, and team in place to support growth. Warning signs that you're not ready include lack of operational systems, inadequate leadership capacity, or attempting to scale before the core business model is proven and repeatable.
Common scaling mistakes include growing too fast without proper systems, making poor hiring decisions during expansion, losing company culture during rapid growth, and failing to align day-to-day tactical decisions with long-term strategic objectives. Many businesses also attempt to scale before their infrastructure can support it.
More insights on building and leading teams in growing organizations
Essential mindset shifts for entrepreneurs building scalable businesses
Tactical approaches to building organizations that can handle rapid growth
Strategic frameworks for making critical business decisions at every stage
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Shop Nuvio RecoveryJeff Dudan - Career CEO and business scaling expert
Tom Rowland - Host, Tom Rowland Podcast
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Jeff Dudan is a seasoned career CEO who brings extensive experience in business scaling and organizational growth. Throughout his executive leadership career, he has specialized in helping companies navigate the complex challenges of expansion while maintaining culture and operational excellence. Dudan's expertise spans strategic decision-making, team building, leadership development, and implementing the systems and infrastructure necessary for sustainable growth. His practical approach to scaling businesses has made him a sought-after advisor for entrepreneurs and business leaders across industries.
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Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 905: Jeff Dudan
In this episode: helping the people recover from Hurricane Andrew, burn-the-boat moments, why ninety percent of franchisors fail within twelve years, going undercover on Undercover Boss, and jigging for walleyes at Red Lake and Reindeer Lake — in the exact words spoken.
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Jeff Dudan: I am Jeff Dudan, CEO of Homefront Brands, brand builder, podcaster, and undercover boss, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.
Tom Rowland: Jeff, good to see you, man. I, enjoyed being on your show the other day, and I'm happy to have you on mine.
Jeff Dudan: That's great to do a back to back like this because we're just it feels like a continuation of the same conversation.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It does. Although, I'm gonna dig into, into what you've done. You had quite a career. And, and what's interesting to my audience is that, that career has led you to fish regularly in the Florida Keys Marathon. That's what that's what these people will be most interested in at first on the surface. So what how did you find Marathon, and how did you get down there to start fishing?
Jeff Dudan: So I started my career in South Florida in 1992 helping the people recover from Hurricane Andrew. Mhmm. And when you're a 23, 24 year old project manager, and you're working all week and helping the people recover, and then it it comes, you know, it comes to Friday, you just head down to The Keys. So we would we would get as far as we could and stop wherever we wanted to and go to the Tiki Bar and go to Islamorada, and then sometimes we go all the way to Key West. But, spent a lot of time down there during that time. And then as I had a family and kids, you know, I was just like, you you wanna take them to the things that you experienced. So we made it a regular stop for us.
Tom Rowland: Cool. And, over the years, you've, you you've gotten into both offshore and inshore fishing. We learned a little on your podcast. Which do you like best?
Jeff Dudan: You know, I don't, well, I will say that saltwater and saltwater is better than freshwater. Although, so the fishing that I did growing up I grew up in Chicagoland. And so, if if we had a weekend, we'd go up to Wisconsin or Minnesota. But once a year, we would it was so affordable. They had these camps up in Canada that you could drive to. And, no indoor plumbing, you know, outhouses, but you drive about five and a half hours into Ontario. We used to go to a place called Red Lake. And it was, I think it was Great Bear Lodge or something like that. And we would we would drive to the end of the road, and then I think the last forty five minutes was a gravel road, and you'd end up just at the end of it. And then they'd come out on ATVs. They'd drive you another mile into the camp, and you'd have these little, Lund boats that were sixteen and eighteen feet. You have a 9.9, horsepower motor on the if you had if you were really lucky and you had a guide, they'd give you, like, a 14 horse. And then, so, and that's the fishing that I grew up doing. So we'd we'd start in
Tom Rowland: the morning. Mostly northern pike Yeah. And walleye and lake trout?
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. We'd jig for walleyes in the morning, typically. And and then when we catch a half a dozen walleyes, we'd have those for shore lunch, and then we just throw the big big buzzbaits on or rapala or whatever it is, and then we just go thrashing for pike the rest of the day. That's so cool. Yeah.
Tom Rowland: You know, that I had a an experience with my dad where, I guess, it was kind of for high school graduation, like, around that time, and he took me to, a place called Reindeer Lake. And, Reindeer Lake is owned by somebody named Ken Gangler, or it was at that time. And, we went up there and just had an incredible trip, like like you're talking about. And and when we were finished fishing with the guides, they let us take the boats out. Yes. Like, I was six, 17 years old. Right? Like and and I had no idea what I was doing, but we would take the boats out. And that turned out to be the the best part of the whole trip was going out there, and and it was my first time that I had experienced going so far north that it doesn't get dark very it doesn't get dark almost at all, in the summertime. And we would just, you know, as a young kid, just so excited about fishing. I'd be out there fishing at 02:00 in the morning. And, I remember bringing a big northern pike in and showing my dad it was he was asleep in the bed. I'm like, look what I caught. Yeah. But that that trip was so meaningful to me becoming a professional fisherman. It it was just I don't know. I don't know what that ignited a fire in me that I was just like, that's that's amazing. You know? I just and, you know, there were a couple years later where, I didn't fish that much and then went to college, and then that's where I was you know? That's when it that's when it really started for me. But that trip was really something. That's there's a lot of incredible fishing up there in Canada. Yeah. I'd love to go back there and do that again.
Jeff Dudan: You know, Tom, I think we're living parallel lives because Reindeer Lake is in Northern Saskatchewan.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's right.
Jeff Dudan: And, my dad passed away in 2020. And he was the one that always used to take us to Canada to go fishing. So and I moved to the South. So I live in the South now. So if you really wanna go to Canada, it's a lot easier for us to go to the Keys or the coast or and do that kind of fishing rather than get all the way back up to Canada. So we just kinda stopped going. But last summer, I took both of my boys up to Reindeer Lake. Did you? And because I had taken my young son when he was seven, and we had gone, maybe to Lake Of The Woods or something like that. But we hadn't really gone to do do, like, a big fly in deal. So last year, you know, we took some of my dad's ashes up there. And, my 20 year old and my 26 year old, we went up there last summer and we spent a week on Reindeer Lake. And we Wow. Just absolutely slaughtered the big pike. It was that it was unbelievable.
Tom Rowland: To hear that it's still good because it was great when I was there.
Jeff Dudan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was, You know,
Tom Rowland: one of the things I remember too about that place is that, they showed us how they kept the ice behind the the lodge Mhmm. And they had this hole dug there, and they would cut the lake ice. And then they would they would cover this hole with moss. And then they put the ice in there, and then cover it with moss, and then put another level of layer of ice on there, and then cover it with moss, and put another layer of ice on there. And that would last them all summer. I just thought that was fascinating. I'm like, we're drinking? That's the the ice that's in our drinks? And they're like, yeah. And that I just I mean, coming from the South, it's so weird to think that's that I don't know. I just thought that was so cool. And then they showed us how you could get birch bark off the trees, and I remember, sending my friend a birch bark postcard from Reindeer Lake. Of course, I sent it from Tennessee, but, I got it at Reindeer Lake. Cool place.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. Different, all kinds of different interesting things they have to do to survive. But we're at Black Bear. So, yeah, they would go up during the winter. They would use a chainsaw and they would cut blocks of ice out of the lake that were maybe two foot by two foot. Mhmm. They they had a shed. It was above ground, so they would layer the bottom with the ice blocks, and then they would use sawdust because they had a sawmill because they had to they made all their own cabins. They made their own sawdust and just layer it and put another layer of ice. And, you know, it's depending on what time of year you went was how tall it was in the shed. Yeah. And you would just go in there with an you'd go in there with your cooler and an ice pick and you'd like get some sawdusty ice in your cooler and yeah. Then Atlanta would last all summer long, which is crazy to think about.
Tom Rowland: I know. But what a great what a great experience. Yeah. Yeah. Reindeer Lake Lodge or Reindeer Lake. I guess you might have gone to a different lodge up there, but still the that was a massively huge lake. I mean, if you look at a map of Canada, it, like, sticks out. It's a huge lake. I mean, like, really a big lake. But that that's it's so full of lakes all up in there. It's just amazing. I guess that's that, where the glaciers just potholed that whole area. And, and that's where all that is. I'm sure there's lakes up there that never get fished.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. If you had a if you
Tom Rowland: had a floatplane, you could probably just bounce around and find all kinds of incredible stuff. That's, that's cool.
Jeff Dudan: It's unforgiving. The the guides we had were local natives, and they were, we had a guy named Crazy Johnny, which
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Jeff Dudan: Accurately named. And you, they capsized a boat one time, and they got stuck out there for a week. And even these guys that grew up out there, they they just, like, you can't find anything to eat. There's no little ground like, they're, you know, they lost everything in the boat. So but they got out on the land and they had to walk, for, like, a week till somebody actually picked them up. And, man, they lost they lost a lot of weight. I mean, plenty of clean water. But Yeah. Unless you can catch some fish, it's, it's fish and bears.
Tom Rowland: Shows like, you see shows like Alone?
Jeff Dudan: Mhmm. Are you
Tom Rowland: a fan of that show? I am. Which is I think, for me, that's my favorite, like, survival show on TV. I don't know. It just seems really real because some people don't make it very long, and then the people that do, they make some good choices. I mean, they they really do. And, but they did it at, like, a a Canadian lake like that.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. I think it
Tom Rowland: was way west of there. But, they they had a hard time, you know, finding anything to eat.
Jeff Dudan: Have you had any survivalists on your podcast?
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I've had two winners of alone here.
Jeff Dudan: Okay.
Tom Rowland: I had Jordan Jonas. He won. Alright. And then I had Clay Hayes. Both of those guys won alone. And, both very different individuals, both people that you would if if you were going to try to survive somewhere, you would want both of these people on your team. K. Very, very capable. Clay is like a, a bowhunter from Idaho, and he also spends a good amount of time in Florida. And I really hope that one day we get to go fishing together because he he's very interested in that. And Jordan was a a guy that he was so interesting. He, as a young man, went up and and lived with this, nomadic tribe that, I guess they they kind of followed the reindeer and and rode reindeer, and and they, like, had this symbiotic relationship with reindeer. But, I mean, it like, he he did all that. The survival on the show was like cake. He told me that when when they came to tell him that it was over, he had just caught these three big fish, and, he's like, oh, well, what are we gonna do with these fish? I'll just make lunch for the whole crew. And so he made he made lunch for the whole crew. Meanwhile, everyone else is starving today.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: But he was the one that got all the fat stolen. He had a he had his fat rendered in a in a, like, a can that he had found, and this Wolverine kept coming in and stealing it. Oh. And, and that made him lose all company. He also shot a moose. Like, both the people like Clay shot something big and, and Jordan shot something big. And then there was another guy that I've tried to get on, Roland. I haven't been able to make contact with him, but he shot a muskox. And so pretty much every time that somebody wins that shows, they they have one big kill, you know, and that kinda tends to to help them. But the survivalists are cool kind of individuals. Very interesting. Yeah.
Jeff Dudan: I've been reaching out to Bear Grylls. Haven't heard back. Bear, if you listen.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I can I can introduce you to, to Clay Hayes and to, Jordan Jonas, and they're they're interesting? You'll you'll you'll get in touch with with Bear Grylls sometime. I don't have a I don't have a connection to him, but he would be great. Love to have him on mine too.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: Alright. Jeff, we have this thing that I do here called the hot seat questions, and it's a way for me to get to know you a little bit better and a way for the audience to get to know you a little bit better, and it kinda leads into a lot of the things that we may end up talking about. So we're they're kinda either or questions or kinda like would you rather, the would you rather game. So you ready to play this with me?
Jeff Dudan: I am game.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Favorite social media platform? Instagram. Do you answer every comment or do you never look at them?
Jeff Dudan: Answer some. That's not a very question. Favorite fish. Favorite fish?
Tom Rowland: Favorite fish to fish for? Walleye. Okay. Favorite fishing destination that you've been? Islamorada. You prefer college or pro football? College. Would you have a reptile as a pet? Yes. That's a very emphatic yes. Favorite This will be interesting for you. Favorite job you've ever had?
Jeff Dudan: Kitchen worker at a Mexican restaurant in seventh and eighth grade.
Tom Rowland: Nice. Interested to hear more about that. Least favorite job you've ever had?
Jeff Dudan: Kitchen worker at a Mexican restaurant. I was, worked on a concrete crew, in a basement six in the morning and shoveling concrete to the corners of it and digging out sump pits. That was tough.
Tom Rowland: Very tough. If you were going to try to survive on an island, what tool would you choose?
Jeff Dudan: Nice. K.
Tom Rowland: Something you do every day that you can tell makes a difference. Exercise. K. Would you rather drive or fly? Fly. Which is more important, mindset or skill set? Mindset. What is Homefront Brands?
Jeff Dudan: Homefront Brands is a property service franchise platform.
Tom Rowland: Chocolate or vanilla?
Jeff Dudan: Vanilla.
Tom Rowland: Text or call? Call. 1,000,000 now or 10,000,000 later?
Jeff Dudan: 1,000,000 now. Tomorrow's promise to no one.
Tom Rowland: Interesting. The most challenging thing about your job today?
Jeff Dudan: Not trying to do too much for too many people.
Tom Rowland: One thing you've changed your mind on in the last two years? Retirement. And you're going to or not going to?
Jeff Dudan: I was thinking about it, but then we we went all in. I've re upped. I've re enlisted.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Alright. One thing you've learned in the last year that's made you money.
Jeff Dudan: Who not how?
Tom Rowland: Love it. We talked about that book before. A movie that makes you laugh.
Jeff Dudan: Oh, I don't wanna say this one. I'll, I'll just go with Caddyshack to be safe.
Tom Rowland: Okay.
Jeff Dudan: Well, a way A business vacation.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Both are good. A way that AI will change the future, in your opinion.
Jeff Dudan: It will The rise of the, smart creatives.
Tom Rowland: K. Can you share one quote that you think about often?
Jeff Dudan: If it is to be, it's up to me.
Tom Rowland: Destination you like to visit? Austria. Is there a book that you've gifted more than once?
Jeff Dudan: Yes. What is it? Discernment, my book.
Tom Rowland: There you go.
Jeff Dudan: Because nobody will buy it.
Tom Rowland: Right here. I don't believe it.
Jeff Dudan: There you go. It's unsellable, so I've gotta get rid of these somehow. I overpurchased.
Tom Rowland: One piece of advice that you live by.
Jeff Dudan: If you know the right thing if you know what the right thing to do is, do that.
Tom Rowland: Okay. And then straight out of your book, define discernment.
Jeff Dudan: Discernment is, it is an experiential cumulative gain of models of thought over time that basically create wisdom. So your ability it's your ability to make good decisions, experience based decisions, decisions against a set of filters, and, that improves. It's a cumulative asset that you refine and improve over the course of your life.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Great. Awesome. That gets us started. And you do have a book called Discernment. It's right here. It came a little late, so I got to skim it. But I like it so far.
Jeff Dudan: Thank you.
Tom Rowland: So why did you write a book about decision making?
Jeff Dudan: I've written two books, and I tend to write books when I think a season of my life is coming to an end. So, the first book I wrote was something called, Hey Coach. And, I really participated in my kids' lives by coaching over 30 seasons of their different sports. A lot of football, a lot of baseball, and some basketball. My daughter was a soccer player. I couldn't do much of that, but I tried. And, you know, at the end of it, you develop these methods and means and philosophies around things. So I I wrapped all that up into a book. I I usually coach my kids up through middle school if they would have me at
Tom Rowland: the Mhmm.
Jeff Dudan: At the middle school. And then, and then discernment, I wrote in 2019, and it was immediately following, the sale of my business, Advanaclaim. I built a business from 1994 and sold it in 01/01/2019. And I really, you know, you get reflective at that point in time. First of all, there's a vacuum of things that you no longer have to do. And, oh, by the way, you have to clean out the closet of your business, and you have to go through and clean things out and move out. And it just gets to be this really reflective time, and you find all of these pieces of work and journals and stuff that you that you used, but you've forgotten about for many years. And I was just like, you know, I wanna, I mean, I really so much of what I do is just for my kids. I'm like, I want my kids to know what was I don't want them to know, hey, you built this great company to 240 locations and you sold it and that's fine. That's, you know, why we get to go to the to the, to The Bahamas now. But, you know, I wanted them to really understand what was underneath it, what was in my head, and some of the struggles that you go through. And, you know, they don't they don't wanna listen to you tell them these stories. So I figured I'd put it all in a book. And, and it's really targeted towards people that are at an inflection point in their life. People that are, you know, maybe and I think young people, you know, if I if I knew all of this stuff when I was younger, I would have made better decisions. And, you know, the quality of your decisions, it really impacts the the quality of your life and the velocity of your business. So I found that a lot of young people in their twenties and they're starting in business and, parents give it to their kids and their kids, you know, you just get to imprint it on their kind of native brains at that point. And hopefully, it'll be helpful to them. So I really just wanted to for anybody that was interested just to share kind of what I went through and what I learned as a result of it and then put it in stories and models of thoughts so that it wasn't textbook. People could actually remember it and be triggered when that when they face that in their life to be like, oh, I remember the story, that Jeff went through and this is similar and, maybe can inform their thinking.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I mean, that's what you that's what you hope, I think, as far as your kids go too. It's like, maybe that they get some advice that would have helped you along. But, you know, do you ever think about like, I'm sure you do when you're reflecting on on on these things and writing a book about it and and you're you're trying to teach people, you know, things that you wish you had known or or that that if you had known, you would have made a different decision. But sometimes I I wonder about that, like, mistakes that you've made and all those things lead you to right here. And you seem pretty happy about where you are right now, and and so do I. Like, I I love where I am right now, and I know that it's accumulation of all of the things that have happened in my life that I have had control of and some things that I didn't have control of or whatever. But there are certainly plenty of decisions that I look back on and go, that wasn't the best one. But I don't necessarily regret it because it led me to right here. And I like where I am right now. What do you think about that? Did you think about that when you were writing this book and when you're kind of at that place in your life?
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. I think it's kind of a closed loop because, when you can take an objective view of yourself and your ego's not out of shape, and you can be extra perspective, meaning if you had a camera up in the corner of the room and you could objectively look at yourself, and you know, your ego is not such that, you know, you can't even think about your failures, like, that's when the real learning happens. And I also I have a I think everything nearly is funny. So I enjoy like, I laugh out loud sometimes thinking about the mistakes that I made and how stupid that was and how embarrassing that was. Like, it it doesn't bother me at all. And I think if you keep those things, not you know, you don't dwell on your mistake, you don't dwell on your failures, but, like, you you certainly have to be able to access those as you continue to go forward through life and inform your thinking with those. And I just thought, you know, I'm kind of a I'm kind of an empath. So, I'm kind of a high empathy guy. I don't mind, being, you know, a little self deprecating a little bit. I think that helps a lot of times, you know, just like, I mean, you can, you know, we can all take ourselves a little bit too seriously, especially if you've had a little bit of success. And then, you've got people that are looking up to you and, you know, and I think it gets to people I see it get to people's heads really quickly. And, man, the it's I mean, we're all struggling. You know, I had we had a, at our at our previous Meet the Team day, we had a veteran who was a Marine One chopper pilot. So he flew presidents. He flew two different presidents on Marine One in the helicopter. And, you know, his comment to me was, you see these people and but they're just they're just husbands and fathers. And when you when you see them in their everyday life, they're no different than than you or I. So, if the if the if the president of The United States is just a regular guy when the when he's not behind the podium and not doing that, then, man, I think we could take I think we can not take ourselves a little bit too seriously either.
Tom Rowland: Right. Yeah. That's a good piece of advice in itself of just, not taking yourself too seriously and and finding the humor. What was the what's the quote that if you if if, if you don't if you can't laugh at yourself, you're missing all the best material?
Jeff Dudan: I mean I've never heard that, but that's true.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, somebody said it. I don't know who. I'm not trying to steal it, but it's a good quote, and I think about that all the time. So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about because on this podcast, one of the reasons I started this podcast was because I wanted to, kinda really dig in on on some people's stories of of success or failure, but a lot mostly of success. And and so many of these people that I find interesting, whether they're a YouTuber or or or someone that has taken a different path and found success, is that somewhere along the line, they had to kind of it it may have started as a side hustle, or it may have started as as a a part time kinda thing, or or or maybe they just took this they just made this jump. And they had to decide at some point that, you know, either the side hustle that seemed kinda silly at first is now making more money than the than the real job that I have. That seems kinda easy. Like, that's an easier one to kind of, okay, well, I'm gonna jump over here and now I'm gonna do it because this was I'm making more money. Sometimes people get to a place to where they're like, well, this other side hustle is seems like there's some future here. But the only way that I'm gonna find out is I'm gonna have to quit my job over here and I'm gonna have to jump in. And I love hearing, like, what it was that made people do that jump and what, you know, what it was that that pulled the trigger on doing something like that. And for you, we were talking about, hurricane Andrew and you were down there doing some cleanup, but then that turns into this whole other thing. Like, how does that happen to where you now turn that experience into something else, AdvantiClean? And I'm sure that somewhere along the line, you gotta pull the trigger. You gotta jump in with both feet. You've got to make this commitment that you are you're in. Love to hear about that.
Jeff Dudan: With the benefit of hindsight, there's I've learned that inflection points typically have three things wrapped around them. Number one, there's people involved. People that you're either responsible for. You're making a decision based on your ability to be with your family, or people that you wanna do something with. So, people are one thing. The second is that there's usually some great opportunity at hand that you see, or at least that you're hopeful about. And then there's a risk of loss because you can't generally get something better without finding something to give up. Because at some point, you can't just keep putting apples in the basket because then the basket runs over. So I've had several of those burn the boat moments. And for whatever reason and I think it's because I really didn't start with anything. And if you so many entrepreneurs start with less than nothing. And they just realize that, you know, they're they're you know, most entrepreneurs are, you know, I'll say this and you can edit it out. But, you know, I don't know what kind of family show this is. But most entrepreneurs are screwed into existence. Meaning, circumstances have led them to a point where they have to make a decision to, like, feed themselves. Like you said, the side hustle. They gotta make some money. And, you know, for me, you know, I went to a university in Iowa and I essentially failed out. And I had to go back and live in my father's house at the time, and my my parents had separated, and, you know, nobody was there. So, you know, it was, I I tell my kids, of course, that it was apples, hot dogs, and government cheese. That's what we had in the house. And, you know, and I I'm like, well, you know, I got $400 a semester to go to to a community to the junior college here, But, like, I've if that's it, you know, that's pretty much what what the the level of support is. So I've gotta make a go of this. So at that point, I I deconstructed. I I knew I was I was a decent football player, but I knew I was too slow. So, I figured out how to take Tae Kwon Do because I knew that that flex of speed is power times flexibility, and I needed to be more flexible. So, I got just enough speed to get a scholarship out of there and into App State and, and and I had other scholarships in in the region, but I still would have probably been in and around the area. So I decided to go the farthest place I could to a Dry County on top of a mountain in Boone, North Carolina to Appalachian State University. So, you know, and my mom gave me her 1972 Buick LeSabre with the ragtop that was ragged off, and I I was a one way drive, and I parked it in student housing on the top of the mountain, and I never went back to get it because it was pretty much a one way trip. I was glad to make it. And and that's where I started. I had five t shirts to my name, and two of them had profanity on it because they were free from some from some bar thing. So, like, that's you know, so, like, when you start there, you know, and and it's like, well, I you know, starting a painting business in the summer there to be able to stay there, it didn't feel like a big deal. It just felt like the next thing that I needed to do to to to make it to the you know, you make it to the next day, then you make it to the next week, then you make it to the next month. And then several points, when I bought my last partner out of the business in 2004 after three hurricanes crisscrossed Florida, and, you know, the we were you know, we had receivables from the storm work, but we had a lot of loans and we had debt. So, you know, I bought this guy out of a business that had no franchises, and we were $4,000,000 in debt. I took all that debt on myself and said, you know, if I can bet on myself, take that. So that was a burn
Tom Rowland: the boat moment. And then
Jeff Dudan: I would say that's a burn the boat moment. Yeah. And and then in, in 2005, coming back from Hurricane Katrina and realizing that we were now working in The Caribbean and and the Gulf Coast and in Hawaii and Canada, and then I was never gonna be home. So history the way I grew up, history was gonna repeat itself because if I was never gonna be home, you're gonna come home one time. She's gonna be gone. The kids are gonna be are not gonna know who you are. And, so I made that decision. We had a nice business going, but I made the decision to sell all of our company stores under a franchise model. So I did that in 02/1978 in Central Florida, Greenville, Spartanburg, South Carolina, and Charlotte. Burned the boats and said, we're gonna sell all of our company stores. We'll keep our kind of commercial division, but we're gonna commit to this franchising model because then I can be home, be engaged, present in my kids life, and, you know, I can have people come to me. And then the other thing that I realized, I've always had a heart of service. I love teaching people things. So, you know, this the ability to to have people come in and to, Tom, to do what you and I get to do is we have choice. Now, you get up at 04:30, I think I remember. I get up like, I get up early and I do what I need to do every single day, but it's my choice to do it. And, you know, if and so, to be able to give people an option to have some piece of life like we get to have as entrepreneurs was incredible to me to be a part of that in these franchise owners lives. And to, you know, build a great business that that you build a dream that's big enough where other people's dreams can fit inside of it and then be a part of that. And and sometimes it's really hard. Sometimes it's tough conversations. Sometimes things aren't don't always go well. I mean, business is full contact and, you know, for a lot of people it's their first business. But I will tell you that if you if people stay the course and you stay in the game, you will ultimately win. So, part of that encouragement is just encouraging people to, you know, redouble their efforts, follow the plan, learn from the mistakes that you've made. You don't have a ton of money in this because you didn't build the business. You just, you know, you just bought a bought a territory. So, you know, you you've got time, to be able to do it. Now the most important thing I'll say is, I don't remember what your question was, but but it was something around that. Right?
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, it was pretty much, you know, how did how did you go from, cleaning up after hurricane Andrew to developing this this AdvantaClean business? Like, you must have seen opportunity there Yeah. And and said, I can do this.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. So what I realized in in really even back in 1992 that the hurricane response to Andrew was dominated by franchise players. So I said, well, I really like this space. And what appeals to me about it? You show up on people's worst day. Their house is flooded. It's burned. It's something like that. And then because I had a heart of service, I would like I could help these people. I could save them. You know? I could I could I could bring what my education about the space and, you know, tell them exactly that it was gonna be okay. This is how it was gonna happen. This is what the insurance company is gonna try to do to you. So when they come out here, you know, don't let them, look in your I can say this, come out of the industry now. Don't let them look in your spice cabinet and that you paid $10 a thing for and say, I'll give you a $100 for all that because you don't realize that you might have a thousand dollars worth of spices there. You know, when they ask you, you know, when they ask you, you know, how much do you spend every day to eat, Don't give them a you you might say, well, let me give them a high number because that's what they're gonna give me. Well, they're gonna give you they say, well, I spend $300 a day, you know, feeding our family. You say, well, when you spend over that, we'll pay the difference because that's what you know? So, you know, so we could give them little little tips and things that would, you know, not let them be disadvantaged in a way, and then just educate them and then take good care of them. So to me, that business was something that it really lit me up. And and then, kind of that immediate you know, it was always fresh every day because, I mean, you're responding to emergencies. Like, you get your call in five minutes, and you're on a million dollar fire at a cleaning at a laundry facility or something, and you're you're immediately solving problems and things are going and, you know, you're gonna make money. Right? So I it was a good fit for me, and and I realized that I wanted to be in this industry, and I also realized that we couldn't franchise right away because we didn't have a working business model. So that we had to start a business to do it, but I always had my eye I I, like, I knew from 1995, because I I tell a story about one of our project managers that that said, hey, I should have a job here. And I said, well, sit down, Ray. Let's talk about it. He told four hour I've talked to him for four hours about what we were gonna ultimately do and we're gonna franchise the business and we'd have and what that would look like. So
Tom Rowland: So did you know about the franchise model and how that worked at that point?
Jeff Dudan: We hired our first franchise attorneys in 1997, got some education. I started the franchise company in 2000, and we just kind of franchise to our own locations there. But because our direct business is growing so fast, we were never able to allocate resources to it. And I made the mistake of not going out and finding anybody that had franchise experience to help us. We were pretty arrogant, you know. We can figure this all out. We can do it ourselves. It was, you know, it was me being, you know, very short sighted inside of that. So until I was able to buy my last partner out in 2004, And he was not somebody that was really that interested in the franchising piece of it. He was a contractor type person. He didn't really want the risk of it. He just didn't he didn't see it. I couldn't he couldn't see the vision clearly, where I was just looking at it. And I was like, this is clearly what we need to do. And, and so yeah. So so I I was I had always been pushing that initiative. And because I knew because I believed that that was our destiny, the decisions that we made in in our office in Charlotte, which was what I was responsible to run. All my partners stayed in the Florida office. We grew way past them. We innovated. We rebranded. We changed the service lines. Like, I was moving the business towards this franchise model that I I saw. And then, they were still running the original model, which was basically a general contractor, you know, getting claims from insurance companies and stuff. So so we were doing all the innovation and up here with the team that I had put together and they were kind of just dragging along and ultimately, they didn't get along. So, they, you know, they two of them wanted to leave. And then, my third one, which is he was one of my great mentors. You know, he just couldn't, he couldn't deal with the stress and the pressure of what was running that off of himself and trying to follow us into the business model. So when those hurricanes hit, we did, I think, $4,200,000 worth of water damage in, like, ninety days. It provided Wow. A good bit of capital for me to be able to buy him out and, you know, take responsibility for the business and the debt and, gave him a nice soft landing and, allowed me to go on and and, make all the bad decisions independently of them.
Tom Rowland: I I find franchise really interesting. And one of the things that I think is interesting about it is the systems and processes that must go into the franchise. And I'm I I don't know anything about franchise. Like, I just I'm just an observer. You go in a restaurant that is a chain Like, I was in First Watch the other day. Mhmm. I like First Watch. They have good food.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah.
Tom Rowland: And, you know, I go to First Watch in Florida, go to First Watch in Tennessee, go to First Watch in Georgia. It's a very similar experience with a with a high quality of food or at least I think it is. And I just like, how does this happen? How does someone be so they must there must be a time where people are so strict about their systems and processes that it must happen this way. Everything must happen just like this little book says or just like we we've been trained. That seems to be that I don't know. For me, that's just not my strength, I think, and we we kinda wing it a lot more around here. But that that would be essential in the franchise. Is that did you have to do that in your franchise model? I mean, I'm I'm assuming that everyone has to do that because that's what a franchise is. Like, you're going to replicate what you've built here almost exactly here. Right? So that someone that goes to another location or uses a different service or location is gonna have a similar experience that they did up here or exactly the same experience if everything is going well. Right? Tom, you're exactly right. Franchising
Jeff Dudan: has very little to do with whatever it is the widget you're franchising. So if you looked at QSR, if you looked at McDonald's, if you looked at ServiceMaster, if you looked at our businesses, and you took the you took the body of the car off, whatever the widget is, the the chassis underneath of even different dissimilar types of market segments is very, very similar. One of the first things you would not probably think that when we started Homefront Brands as a platform about three years ago, one of the biggest and earliest hires we we made was a learning management executive from a company, you know, twenty years experience, 5,000 seat learning management person to build.
Tom Rowland: So tell me tell I mean, me and and everyone else that's not in the franchise, what is learning management? What does that what does that mean? What does
Jeff Dudan: that person do? It's every single thing that happens in the franchise that is in an online, education, videos, pictures, tests, quizzes, scoring. You know, it's a it's a knowledge base and it's also an education base. So that anybody who comes to work in, who either joins the franchise or or hires people to work in the franchise, that they have online training to do to show them exactly what to do. So we're an adult education company. We're a marketing we're a marketing and lead generation and conversion company through a call center. So we participate in the front end by generating leads and generating business. We're a technology company because we take all that data and we put it into the relative dashboard. So that when you come in, you know, we tell people, you know, if you don't like radical transparency, then this is not a good place for you because you're gonna see all of your KPIs against all of your peers and your brand. Who's the best sale who's the best salesperson, who closes the best, what the cost of goods are. Because if you want incremental improvement, you wanna be making sure that you're that it's not you know, qualitative or it's not anecdotal conversations. How do you think you're doing? Well, I think we're doing good. It's it's gotta be, you know, numbers don't lie. People do. So, you know, we had to build a large enterprise platform to make sure that we could serve the franchise owners up the data that they need to make informed decisions about incremental improvements, you know. We try to pick up half a point here, three quarter of a point there. So it's it's technology. It's it's learning management. It's marketing. It's call center conversion. It's it's none of it has to do with whatever service is getting provided out there.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Jeff Dudan: And, like, that's that's the, you know, the when people try to franchise their business, ninety percent of franchisors fail within twelve years. There's over 4,000 actively growing franchise brands. The top 20% of those get all the activity and are the ones that are really growing, and then the rest of them are cycling in and out of business because you they they think, you know, hey, it's like the worst thing to do is if you like to cook is open a restaurant because there's nothing to do with that, you know. So, you know, it's it's a so so yeah. It's a different business model and brand standards and consistency are absolutely paramount. Because if we have a customer that's in Oklahoma City, and now they move to Austin, Texas, and they wanna get the same service done that they can expect to to have the same booking app on their phone, that they can have the same, you know, the same experience when people come out and even say the same things. I mean, how great is it at Chick fil A when people just say, my pleasure. I saw a little thing on the Internet, which I think is gonna be very popular one day. I saw a little thing on the Internet, you know, it took them six years to get the my pleasure statement into the Chick fil A system to get them to adopt everybody to adopt to use that. So if you think about it, you've got all these different business owners out there. You're going for consistency, but you have all these different business owners that have different experiences. They come from different careers, different they're different ages. They have all of this stuff and you're trying to get them all to basically follow the plan, but yet they're not employees. So they do have great latitude in especially in a service business that's performed in people's homes and businesses. They have great latitude in in the way that they the way that they execute the model, the way that they lead, the way that they manage. So so it's a it's a negotiation, and so we try to put guardrails up. We use technology to make sure that the systems are, you know, a bulletproof and foolproof to the greatest that we can. But like, it still comes down to that owner, their leadership ability, their ability to get people in the community, to to, use them. They they have to show up in their community in a big way. All the best business owners in the community are usually involved in charities. They're they're helping out. They're they're visible. And then they gotta get employees to, you know, to to join them and stay with them and and all of that. So there's a lot on these franchise owners. So what we try to do is to is anything that can be centralized that makes their businesses easier to run, we take that upon ourselves, and then we usually create efficiencies. I mean, we run call centers. So in AdvantiClean, we had 16 reps, and we answered over 250,000 inbound customer, phone calls, and we booked every appointment, and scheduled every mold job, and dispatched every water damage job. But if every franchise had to have a couple people answering phones, then that have been four or 500 people out there. We did it with 16 and it was more efficient. So it saves them that money. And so that like, good franchising is a real partnership out there. And, yeah, the innovation from the, you know, from the top down is usually orderly and dumb, but innovation from the outside in is chaotic, but it's brilliant. So we also have to maintain a dialogue with the franchise owners because candidly, that's they're in the front lines, and that's where some of the greatest ideas are gonna come from. So we gotta have this relationship equity. We gotta have this trust. We gotta have this, you know, this healthy tension that everybody's pushing each other just enough, but, like, we're not shooting at each other, you know, and throwing rocks at each other. I mean, I mentioned McDonald's, you know, I grew up in Chicagoland, good Catholic area. And even in our public schools back in the day, I don't know where it lands today, but, you know, who knows? But, like, we didn't eat meat on Fridays because, you know, during Lent, Catholics generally don't eat meat on Fridays, but it was a whole year for us. It was cheese pizza, macaroni and cheese on Friday. Well, so McDonald's on Fridays, they wouldn't do very well because they're serving hamburgers and except one location. And they went out to this one location, and he was serving a fish sandwich. And he was crushing every people were driving from all over the place to eat at McDonald's because they had he had the fish sandwich. So they took it back to, you know, Hamburger U and they turned it into the Filet O Fish sandwich and they rolled it out to everybody. So that was an innovation from a franchisee that, you know, benefited everybody. So you so it's it's a real it's a real collaboration and and it's it's a nice partnership because, you know, we're writing checks as the franchisor, but the franchisee partners, they're also writing checks. So we're all we're all in it together.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So you were on Undercover Boss, and you're what what role do you take on Undercover Boss?
Jeff Dudan: That was me. Good luck.
Tom Rowland: But I mean, like, where do you where do they have you fit into your your Oh. Business?
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. So very cool show. So they they, you know, they they I had a pretty good disguise. Anybody wants to go to my LinkedIn, there's a free video. You can go to my LinkedIn, Jeff Dudan, and there's, like, the video right underneath there for free. You can click on it and waste forty two minutes of your life, you'll never get back. But, no. I mean, it's so, you know, you hey. You know, I'm I'm today, I'm in Seattle, Washington, and I'm gonna be working as a mold remediator or, you know, it was air duct cleaning tech or whatever it was. So they would throw me in on the cruise And, four incredible episodes, all very positive. It was very meaningful. We had great, you know, we had great franchisees, and I just knew that we were gonna find people that cared about the customers, and we did down to a person. I got busted twice. One was an episode that didn't make the show, and, one did. But, yeah, it was a very positive episode. I still it it still plays. It gets a lot of reruns, both here in The States and also, you know, if my, if my, direct Facebook messages from The UK suddenly tick up, I know that it played over there, something like that.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So what did you, what were the main takeaways when you come away with I mean, first of all, four episodes. It seems like when I've watched that show, you only seem to get, like, one episode per business. Is that not right? Or maybe I'd need to watch more undercover boss.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. Usually, it's it's they'll go to they'll do three or four
Tom Rowland: different employees.
Jeff Dudan: Okay. Yeah. They'll go to three or four different locations. And then, at the end of it, they'll they'll cart them back out
Tom Rowland: for the big reveal.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. And you'll, you know, you'll you'll if you're, you know, depending on I think if you're paying we paid attention to what people really, really wanted. Some people are just like, I'm gonna give you 20,000. I'm gonna give you 30,000. I'm gonna do this. Right. I thought art I had two people travel with me from the company, and, you know, one guy wanted wanted a Harley. We we had a Harley dealership bring a Harley over, and, you know, another, but, I mean, with a the the best outcome on the show was a lady named, Danielle. And, you know, they found people that had some real challenges in their life. You know, spouses, you know, no longer with us for a variety of reasons and, you know, special needs kid. And, you know, she's she's struggling, and they're getting ready to lose their house. And, just a wonderful lady. So we ended up, we hired her into we gave her a job, and we gave her all the stuff that she could work remotely. So we set up her house, like, and we put her in the call center, and she ended up being one of our top reps for years. And we paid her rent for two years, and they had never had a vacation. So we sent them to California for a week, her entire family. We were gonna send them on a Disney cruise or whatever, and she says, like, we just want a van, and we wanna drive the state of California together and go see anything that we wanna see. I said, well, then here's all the money and, you know, there
Tom Rowland: you go.
Jeff Dudan: And a couple other things that they that they really needed. But, you know, that was a good outcome. And, you know, it it it just so so yeah. It was but but they I don't know. That that's you know, people people a lot of people have seen the show. They know what it's about. It was a it was a season eight, I think, episode seven or no. I think it was the was it the kickoff of season eight? Yeah. Because we were supposed to be on the last episode of seven, and then, it got pushed to the to the next season. So
Tom Rowland: It's gotta be so rewarding. I mean, that that that show, you know, I like shows that that that have a positive spin because there's certainly plenty that don't these days, but that one that one is is really good.
Jeff Dudan: So Yeah. That's cool. I you asked me what I got out of it. So I came back and I just sat down on my office, and, you know, we had this set of of values and principles. And I I think I think, you know, you try to do too much with them. And I I just sat down, And after the after going you know, and it's it's like, my wife came up with the design for our truck. You know? And and now you're you're flying all over the country, and you're seeing these trucks everywhere. And you're seeing people operating businesses with 10 or 15 or 20 employees, but just like you used to operate. And they're all over the country. And it's, you know, you we got out and around, but, like, going and spending the time on the job with these people, I hadn't really done that. So I sat back, and I'm like, what is the real core of what we do? And I wrote the word CARES on top of it. And, you know, I used it as an acronym for our values, which are community, accountability, respect, excellence, and service, which is servant's heart or servant leadership. And, like, it just, like like, sat down, just reflected for a minute, and that just fell out of my face right onto the right onto the paper. And we still use those values today. So that was, you know, after that immersion experience, I I was really able to kind of reflect down to the core of, like, what what makes great franchise systems? What makes great franchisees? What makes a difference in people's lives and their communities? And and for that, us, that embodies that.
Tom Rowland: That's cool. How does somebody know if they if they have a business that is franchisable?
Jeff Dudan: I do a lot on that. I've, it's, you know, generally I mean, there there's a that's a big question, and I don't think we've got the time for the the whole answer. But, so first of all, it's gotta be a business that's good for people. Meaning, as I talked about, you you need to make it as easy as possible for these franchisees. So if you if you create a jet airplane of a business, then only the Top Gun pilots are gonna be able to fly it, and everybody else is gonna crash. So you have to create a business and business systems that, you know, you know, 90% of the people with different levels of experience and skill sets and capitalization can be successful in. Maybe at different levels, but, you know, not fail. And be so, you know, a business that's good for people, you, you know, franchise systems generally work best when there's a product or service that needs to be delivered by human on-site somewhere. So it can be a hamburger or it can be a paint job. But there needs to be you know, a lot of people come I get I get franchise businesses every day. Somebody's like, I'm I've got this business and I wanna franchise it. Right? And I've I've got you know, I I do have some websites out there and stuff where people you can go to www.dudeenx.com if you wanna fill out the form and tell me about your business. Just go to dudeonx.com, and, we'll respond to you there and take a look at it. But, yeah, if it's a business that could just be a direct business or can be serviced, you know, Amazon could disrupt it, products that way, or it's just a sales rep organization. You have to really be careful about those types of businesses because maybe they can be done much more efficiently just with technology or or remote Mhmm. Things like that. But, I mean, if somebody needs a fence put up or a kitchen put in or water damage, like, those are the types of businesses or or food item, you know, those those are great businesses to put the ownership mentality at the point of attack. And business franchise systems are extraordinarily resilient because you have hundreds or thousands of families that have invested in this, and they're just they're not gonna let that ship go down. Yeah. So, you know, you can you can catch a brand like, you could get canceled today, but, you know, generally, the franchise systems are are pretty resilient.
Tom Rowland: You know, one thing that you mentioned earlier that 90% fail within twelve years, which I thought twelve years was a strange time frame. Like, would it it seems like if you could make it for a decade, you probably are in in pretty good place. But maybe at that point, you have to grow more or what what happens, you know, after you've been going for a little while that would make a lot of franchises fail like that?
Jeff Dudan: Great question. We only get paid pennies on the dollar. So but yet, think about all the things that I said we need to provide to be a good responsible franchisor. It's a lot of things. And executives and people that know what they're doing and training and technology and all of that. So to be a franchisor, you have to reach a certain number of locations open just to break even. It might be in a service business 40 to 60 locations and where you don't have to sell a new franchise that month to, you know, so you don't have more month at the end of your
Tom Rowland: money. Right.
Jeff Dudan: And so and then maybe at a 100 locations, you're kind of normally profitable and you've got something there. So what happens is is if people get three or four or five franchises out there and then they're supporting them, eventually, they're gonna get tired. And, you know, maybe they get up to 10 or 15 locations or 18 or 20. It's not enough to sustain. And then also, too, there's an attrition rate of about five to 7% of mature franchise systems. So let's say you got 20 locations. Well, two of them a year are gonna wanna sell their business because they're doing great or or stop it because it's not working for them. Or they get a sick parent and they've gotta relocate. You know, something there's all kinds of reasons why people can get in and out of a franchise. So if you don't have a pipeline of new candidates coming in to take those two that need to move on for whatever reason, then you go down to 18. So now you're going backwards. You already didn't have enough royalty income to cover. So now you're working day and night, night and day, you and your wife out of your bedroom trying to answer these franchisees questions. And you'd so at at the end of the day, it's a scale business. You you have to reach a certain amount of scale. And if you're not gonna make it over I mean, I've had people, I've had people like with a pizza place. A friend of mine and, you know, he got to like 30 locations and, you know, he wasn't moving anymore and it just, you know, and the demands of it. And then, he he was trying to deal with all the franchisees and he just one day, he just he just said, you all go do whatever you want. You don't pay me any more money. You can use the name. I'm closing the I'm out of here. He just left. You guys do whatever you wanna do. Deal directly with the suppliers and and all of that because, you know, at some point yeah. I mean, he just knew that he just wasn't gonna get there. That he had Right. He had tied himself to help these people and, he just but he wasn't ever gonna, you know, he didn't feel like he was gonna be able to get to that number of locations that would, that would make it profitable and that they keep because it costs money to provide the support that these people need.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Jeff Dudan: And you owe it to them. And you've gotta either be willing to write the check early and and you gotta be willing to write the check until such time that you have enough fees coming in to, you know, that it kind of balances out there. So It's
Tom Rowland: interesting because that, you know, you would think or or from the outside looking in, if you got 30 locations, it seems like you're killing it.
Jeff Dudan: Well, it depends on the AUV. Right? So if you've got 30, like, large footprint wing stops and they're doing 3 to 4,000,000 a piece, you got a $100,000,000 business there. You're fine. If you've got 30 painting guys that are doing $500,000 a piece, you know, and then you're getting, you know, 6¢ on the dollar, 7¢ on the dollar, something like that, plus your other fees, you know, and you've got to have five or six people helping these people, then it's, you know, it's it's it gets a little tight there. So it's just just, you know, a lot of it has to do with, you know, how much revenue is is in each location.
Tom Rowland: So Yeah. Yeah. I've, you know, seen people try to franchise fishing. Yeah? Seems hard. Yeah. I don't know. That seems How's
Jeff Dudan: that going?
Tom Rowland: Really hard.
Jeff Dudan: I I I think I'm not even talking about
Tom Rowland: I I haven't I I mean, I don't know. I don't know. There I've I've seen it in freshwater and saltwater, and I have no idea how it's going. Oh. But we were we have been approached. Like, you got a good brand, you could do a franchise, and, we didn't we didn't go down that road because I didn't I I just thought it sounded really hard. Like, I I I just sounded really hard to me. But I don't know. Maybe it was a missed opportunity. You never know.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. I mean, would you do the guiding? I mean, I could, you know, we could we could we could run that out and see, but, you know, you would have to Again, based on what I just said, I mean, you would have to, I mean, you got a great brand. You got a lot of reach. You got licensing deals. You got sponsorships. You got I mean, you got lots of ways to monetize what you're doing. You got television. But, you know, it's, franchising, I think works really well in certain situations. Yeah. I think But but not every situation.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that's that's obvious. I mean, because some some make it and some don't. But some are some are really great. I I don't know if you're comfortable naming names, but is is there one franchise that sticks out that seems to be the the best that people would recognize the name?
Jeff Dudan: Well, I mean, Chick fil A
Tom Rowland: That's what I thought you were gonna say.
Jeff Dudan: But it's a really but it's it's kind of a franchise non franchise. And, I mean, their standards are so high. People wait for five years to get an opportunity for a Chick fil A, then they go work in a store for six months. They work every position in there, then they go sit by the phone. And this look, don't sue me Chick fil A if this is wrong, but you know, it's close enough. So, then they go sit by the phone and they get a call and they say, all right, we're offering you a location. It's one of three these three spots. You can you got to go there and you got to get to tell us right away And, I think you only pay and again, this is information that might be outdated, but you pay $5, but you don't own the location, you don't own the real estate, it's a profit share, it's a partnership, you do very well, but then you don't build equity because when you're done with the arrangement, you get they you give it back to them. So they have extraordinarily high standards, extraordinarily
Tom Rowland: high guardrails, extraordinarily,
Jeff Dudan: long and arduous process on the extraordinarily long and arduous process on the front end, and that very, very few people get through and actually get a store. And I had, Fred Reichheld on my podcast. He was a he's a Bain consultant for forty years. He invented the Net Promoter Score. And the Net Promoter Score is, you know, would you recommend this business to a friend or family? And he worked with Chick fil A early with Truett Cathy, and he said he said people think Chick fil A is closed on Sunday for religious reasons. It's not. It was because they didn't want the Chick fil A to operate without their operating partner to be on location. And we need to close one day a week to give them a day off, and Sunday seems like the day to do it. And that was and that was a that went viral. That was a sound bite that he shared. So, you know, it it their their standards are so so high and so exacting that, but in most franchises, you build equity. So in our franchises, the franchise owner pays a relatively small fee, they go work really hard, They build a great business. Seven, eight, nine, ten years down the road, they sell it. Well, they get the money for that business. And it could be a multimillion dollar business and it could be a multimillion dollar payout. They get the money. We get a $10,000 transfer fee. Now we got a new franchisee, but the business continues, from that point. So it's, interesting.
Tom Rowland: I'm sure there's tons of different ways that Yeah. That it all works. But I've always just kinda looked from the outside in and just wondering how that works. I'm sure other people have too. So, hopefully, this was this was helpful to, to to anybody that had any questions about it. But, yeah, we should definitely check you out on Undercover Boss season eight episode one through four, I think. But, Jeff, I appreciate you coming on. I hope we can fish one day together, when you're down in marathon. That'd be fun. And, you know, how how do people get in touch with you? Or do you do coaching? Like, Is that what you're is that part of what you're doing, or you're kinda coaching your your franchisors franchisees?
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. So yeah. I mean, I do coaching. Of course, I work, on a regular basis in lots of different touch points with all of our Homefront brands franchisees. But if somebody has a brand that they might wanna franchise or they have questions, I I take tons of calls like that just to give people feedback. I like to talk to people. So you can go to, www.dudentx.com, Fill out a form there. But for anything that we've got at Homefront branch, just go to homefrontbrands.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn, just Jeff Dudan, d u d a n. Instagram, Jeff Dudan. If you want a free copy of my book Discernment, I'd be happy to email that to you. All you do is go to my Instagram, click on the link, fill out a short form with your email and your phone number, and you will immediately get a copy of Discernment back to you. If you like the book, then you can go to Amazon and pick it up there. Not not a lot of dollars. And, yeah, those are the those are the best ways to get in touch with me, whether it be LinkedIn, Instagram, or just fill out a form on homefrontbrands.com if you want more information about any of our brands.
Tom Rowland: Right on. Alright, Jeff. Thanks, man. I appreciate it, and I appreciate you having me on your show. You can also, hear that show. I don't know when that's gonna air or what, but, what what's the podcast called? Homefront Yep. Podcast?
Jeff Dudan: Yep. On the Homefront with Jeff Dudan, where it's really great. A lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of great stories on there. A wide variety. We've got celebrity chefs and all all kinds of peep we have bachelors on there, ex bachelors. And so it's a it's an eclectic, group, but it but it all runs can seems to run down a similar theme of, you know, people that are up to something and going somewhere talking about cool things. So it's On the Home for With Jeff Dudan. You get on Apple as our biggest platform, but also on Spotify and, of course, on YouTube if you just have to look at this face.
Tom Rowland: Alright. Alright. Well, thanks so much. I appreciate getting to know you a little bit better. I certainly appreciate you having me on your podcast. And, go, Joe, check him out and and see what he's got if you especially if you're interested in franchising, but, also, might see him in Marathon Fishing.
Jeff Dudan: Yeah. Well, can I got can I go to your website and and, book a charter with you? Are you still doing that?
Tom Rowland: Not really. No. Oh, wow. But we can figure out a time that we can get together.
Jeff Dudan: I think that sounds great, Tom. Thank you so much.
Tom Rowland: Alright. Thank you. Alright. See you. See you.
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