Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 934 launches the Anglers Unite segment, recorded at the American Sportfishing Association's Sport Fishing Summit. I sit down with Tom Anderson and Larry Phillips of the ASA to explain how recreational anglers can unite around the policy fights that threaten fishing access — from right whale closures to the 30 by 30 movement to the federal excise tax — and why a single national voice is the only thing strong enough to protect our right to fish.
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This episode kicks off the Anglers Unite segment of the Tom Rowland Podcast, recorded at the American Sportfishing Association's Sport Fishing Summit. The goal is to help anglers understand the threats to sport fishing access and how a unified, national voice can protect the right to fish. I am joined by Tom Anderson and Larry Phillips of the ASA to walk through the policy fights happening on anglers' behalf.
Larry Phillips covers fisheries policy from a science, policy, and regulatory standpoint at the state and federal level for the West Coast, from Alaska to California, on behalf of the American Sportfishing Association. He spent many years with the State of Washington before moving into advocacy because he saw an opportunity to fight directly for recreational fishing access. He is deeply involved in salmon management and West Coast access issues.
The American Sportfishing Association, or ASA, is a trade association that has been around for ninety years and represents the recreational fishing industry — manufacturers, retailers, and anglers — in front of government agencies, policymakers, and Congress. It advocates for healthy fisheries and meaningful access, and works to protect the federal excise tax program that funds state fisheries management.
Anglers Unite is a segment Tom Anderson and I created on the Tom Rowland Podcast to raise awareness of the policy threats facing sport fishing and to show listeners how to have a seat at the table. The premise is simple: fractured, regional, and small, our voice is weak; aligned as a national community of anglers, our voice is very strong. The segment connects everyday anglers to the issues being decided in Washington.
Larry and Tom run through a long list: right whale closures that could shut off massive areas on the East Coast, California's interpretation of the 30 by 30 movement that treats areas as protected only if closed to fishing, Atlantic striped bass, red snapper, Mississippi River Basin issues, aquatic invasive species, and forward-facing sonar. They also dig into the excise tax 'slippage' problem with foreign e-commerce sellers bypassing the tax.
The excise tax is a self-imposed tax that anglers chose to pay on fishing equipment, and the money is distributed to states to fund boat ramps, access, law enforcement, and fisheries management that keep anglers fishing. Larry explains that foreign e-commerce sellers shipping directly to U.S. consumers can bypass that tax, undercutting the funding that supports the resource — which is why where and how you buy gear actually matters.
Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 934 on protecting fishermen's rights is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and iHeartRadio. Press play in the audio player on this page to listen to the full conversation with Larry Phillips and Tom Anderson of the American Sportfishing Association.
I will be honest: like a lot of the people listening, I did not really know what happened at events like the ASA Sport Fishing Summit, or how much of my ability to keep fishing depends on the work being done there. Tom Anderson and I built Anglers Unite to close that gap. I came into this conversation as a student, wanting Larry Phillips to explain in plain terms what is actually at stake and what a regular angler can do about it.
Press play in the audio player on this page to hear the whole conversation.
Tom Anderson describes the summit as the place where the entire industry — manufacturers, retailers, and the products you use — gets together to figure out how to have a collective voice, swimming upstream like salmon, in conversations with government agencies and policymakers. Larry Phillips adds that the ASA strategically locates the summit to highlight the issues anglers are facing in each region. Listen to them describe what a week of those sessions actually looks like.
The line from this episode I keep coming back to is that a king salmon issue on the West Coast matters to a Florida fisherman just like water quality matters to a Northeastern angler. All anglers have a voice, and together that voice is very strong. Fractured, regional, and small, it is very weak. Larry explains why decision-makers in Washington have to start asking what the recreational community thinks. Hear him make the case in the episode.
Larry calls California's version of the 30 by 30 movement one of the biggest issues on the West Coast. The global initiative aims to protect thirty percent of marine areas to conserve biodiversity, but California's interpretation treats an area as protected only if it is closed to fishing. He explains how the ASA works through the Magnuson-Stevens Act regulatory process — which he calls the most transparent and inclusive in the world — to push back. Listen to that section of the episode.
This was the part that reframed things for me. The excise tax is money anglers chose to tax themselves, and it pays for boat ramps, access, and fisheries management. Tom Anderson explains the 'slippage' problem — foreign e-commerce sites shipping directly to U.S. buyers and bypassing the tax — and why that quietly drains the funding that keeps the resource healthy. He even suggests calling your state Fish and Wildlife Department to ask where the money went. Press play to hear it.
Listen to the full conversation: Apple Podcasts · Spotify · or press play in the audio player on this page.
The day after this one, what stuck with me is how much work is going on behind the scenes so that anglers like me — and anglers who only get out a couple of days a year — can keep fishing. None of us see it, but all of us benefit from it.
The other takeaway is that awareness is the first step. You do not have to attend a summit to matter. Knowing the issues, asking where your excise tax dollars go, and buying gear responsibly all add up. That is the whole point of Anglers Unite.
Press play in the audio player on this page, or grab Episode 934 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
The Tom Rowland Podcast brings you long-form conversations with the most accomplished anglers, hunters, conservationists, and outdoor professionals in the game. Listen to every full-length Tom Rowland Podcast interview.
Larry Phillips covers fisheries policy at the state and federal level for the West Coast on behalf of the American Sportfishing Association, working from Alaska to California on salmon management and recreational access after many years with the State of Washington. Tom Anderson is a co-creator of the Tom Rowland Podcast's Anglers Unite segment, focused on helping everyday anglers understand and engage with the policy issues that affect their ability to fish. Together they represent the industry's push for a unified national voice for recreational fishing.
Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 936: Larry Phillips & Tom Anderson
In this episode: the ASA Sport Fishing Summit, right whale closures on the East Coast, California’s 30 by 30 implementation, the excise tax and e-commerce “slippage,” and how anglers unite for a collective voice in Washington — in the exact words spoken.
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StarBright is the maker of some awesome products that keep your boat, your RV, anything you have clean and sparkling and keep your investment pristine. Today, we have a special podcast. We have started this series called Anglers Unite and that is with our partner, Burnowin. Tom Anderson is the owner of Burnowin. They make amazing products for your boat. You've seen us use them on Saltwater Experience. What Tom wants to do is to help all anglers understand what the threats to sport fishing are and how we can unite to come up with solutions and actually move forward in a way that we can all continue to fish. That's what we all really want to do. There are serious threats to sport fishing.
There are groups out there, policies out there, other things that threaten access, that threaten the ability to go into certain areas, like the right whale issue that could close off massive, massive areas. It's good to know that as a recreational fisherman, as a recreational sport fishing guide, as somebody that makes a living in fishing or just somebody that likes to just go fishing one time a year, you actually have a voice in Washington that is looking out for your best interest. And your best interest is basically the ability to continue to fish. And the ability you know, fishing in so many places is a privilege. It's not a right. And we need to keep that always in the back of our head, that we want to maintain this privilege or right. But mostly what we want to be able to do is just continue to fish. We do have a voice in Washington and that is ASA.
There's something going on right now called the ASA Sport Fishing Summit. And we are going to be joining Larry Phillips and Tom Anderson who are on-site attending this meeting, and they're gonna give us the inside scoop about what's being talked about, what the most important issues are, and how we're working towards solutions to protect our rights to fish, to protect our access to fish, or to protect the habitat or the species of fish that we like to catch. A lot of people know about this meeting, but have no idea what takes place there. I've known about that this meeting takes place every single year, but I don't I don't know what they talk about there, even even even me that makes a living in in fishing. The other event that ASA, does hold, which a lot of people know a lot more about, is event called ICAST.
And that's where all the manufacturers get together and show their goods for the entire year. It's a fisherman's dream come true. You can go there and you can see all your favorite fishing tackle and what what's gonna be sold this year and the technology and the advancements and all that. But this, this other event, the ASA Sportfishing Summit, is something different. That's where they talk about policies. That's where they talk about threats and what we're gonna do about it. So let's hear from Larry and Tom right now.
Tom Anderson: I'm here as part of the, government affairs committee, representing the interest of West Coast saltwater sport fishing. I'm an industry member. I'm an ASA member as a company. We exhibit at ICAST, and most people are probably familiar with ICAST, which is ASA's main event each year. It's an industry show. This is held in the fall, and it's where the entire industry, which is all the manufacturers, products that you use for your sport fishing endeavors, get together to try to strategize and how to how figure out how we can have a collective voice, as I put it, swimming upstream, kinda drawing a parallel to the salmon. Right? With government agencies, with policymakers, with the government itself, and have a collective representation at the table in conversations that affect the ability for all of us to go out and enjoy what we do, which is fishing.
Larry here next to me, he's here on the West Coast. I'll let him introduce himself later. But Larry kinda got me involved with this program, and, I'm really excited to be here. It's been an incredible week, and it's amazing to me the number of issues that we all face as sport fishermen. Most of us in the industry, yes, we're making products for fishing. It's our business, but it's also our passion. So I'm here both as a fisherman as well as in the industry, trying to be part of the solution and and have us have a little bit of a more collective voice. There's a lot of organizations we all belong to regionally or locally as fishermen that we support, CCA, for Clean Water, local fishing chapters, bass, NPAA if you're a professional angler. And we have a lot of different interests, but, really, when it comes down to it, we all face the same struggles. You know?
We we are all working to access resources that, other organizations are as well. Commercial fishing has a a stake here, and, we need collective representation. So, you know, Tom, this is part of you and I creating this anglers, united segment of your podcast that we wanna try to help your listeners and our customers and anglers all around the country understand how we can do a better job of, having a seat at the table. So, I'm excited about moving forward. I think this introduction today is just about generating some awareness for the fact that this event exists, this organization exists, and it's where everybody in the industry collects input from users and takes it upstream and and lobbies on our behalf as sport fishermen. So that's why we're here, and, it's a neat event. You you should probably be here next year.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. I would like to be there. You know, this is something that, I I wasn't really aware of. I mean, I'm aware that the event takes place. I'm not really aware, like probably many of the people listening right now, of what actually takes place there and what what what goes on and how important that is to the future of sport fishing, whether that's I mean, we're gonna talk about what what the kind of issues are that you're you're talking about, but let's bring Larry into this. Larry Phillips, you're the Pacific fisher sorry. That's easy for me to say. Pacific Fisheries policy director. Tell me what that entails.
Larry Phillips: Yeah. Thanks, Tom, and thanks for for letting me join you guys today. So, I I cover fisheries policy from a from a a science standpoint, from a policy standpoint, from a regulatory standpoint, really at the state and federal level for the on the West Coast of of The US, really from Alaska to, to California. So, I'm I'm one of, 20 staff that that work for ASA. Our our government affairs unit is pretty lean. There's there's six of us there that cover, you know, really the the Pacific Fisheries Management Council. I cover that, but we cover the council processes. There's eight councils under Magnuson Stevens. That's where our our federal regulations are are made, and we advocate on behalf of the recreational fishing industry to ensure that we have health healthy fisheries and, and meaningful access to them.
So as you can imagine, a lot going on, but, you know, we're fortunate today to be here on the West Coast. Our annual sport fishing summit happens, you know, annually, but it's it it's, strategically located in areas that, we can attract our members to, and we can highlight some of the issues that we're facing. And, certainly, we face a lot of them here on the West Coast. Coast.
Tom Anderson: Yeah. And just to set that stage, just Tom, by the way, next year, the sport fishing summit about this time of year will be held in Key West. Last year, it was just in Florida, travels around. And Larry, just to kinda clarify, Larry has five counterparts, that serve similar roles. So Larry handles the entire West Coast, kind of taking issues up for the ASA, and then there's, Gulf, Southeast, and Atlantic, and then a freshwater. The equivalent of Larry that serve those regions and then try to bring those issues up collectively on the national.
Tom Rowland: They have they have one person for all freshwater? Yeah. Is that Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's That seems like a a wild wildly varied thing from a trout stream to a bass lake to
Larry Phillips: Right.
Tom Rowland: Big impoundments, rivers. That seems like a lot of work for one person.
Tom Anderson: Agree, Tom. However, when you think about it, a lot of the freshwater fishing has less probably federal involvement than some of these migratory fisheries in the saltwater.
Tom Rowland: You
Tom Anderson: know, Larry or we on the West Coast deal with, other countries. Right? We're trying to manage with Canada. Salmon swim out in the ocean and and go all over the place. We don't even really know where yet. So but I agree that the when you say freshwater fishing, I can't even imagine the the variety of issues that are there.
Tom Rowland: Right. So this year, you guys this this, event started, what, a couple days ago, Tuesday. Is that is that correct?
Larry Phillips: Tuesday through Friday.
Tom Rowland: So you've had and so what what does the schedule look like so far? Like, how much time have you spent, in in seminars or or in presentations or things like that?
Tom Anderson: Well, so I'll speak as a first timer here. You know, Tuesday was kinda gathering day. So a lot of people traveled here Tuesday morning or maybe Monday. Wednesday and Thursday are all day affairs. There's breakfast event. There's sessions all morning, some of which are educational. There was some, you know, speakers from different industries. Recreational boat and fishing foundation gave some presentations for information yesterday. There's some presentations on marketing, how to access resources that are available to all the industry association members. And then there's the sort of more business, efforts that relate to policy making and these government affairs. So we have to leave in a little bit to go back into another general session where there's actual business conducted on on, government affairs that we're working on and all these phishing issues we're discussing.
Tom Rowland: Understood. So out of all that, this year, are there things that are, obviously of interest to to everyone there, threats that are are more pressing than they have been in years past? What are the what are the subjects that have been discussed so far?
Larry Phillips: I could jump in a little bit to to start us off here. I mean, there's obviously, there's when you think about our industry in general, there's a lot happening. But, you know, ASA has been around for ninety years, and and one of the things that we've been, steadfast supporters of is, the the excise tax, the collection of of, you know, our our, the tax that's that's, attached to recreational fishing equipment that is, divvied out to the states to, manage fisheries in a way that that improves the abundance and and really, just continues to provide meaningful access to us. So that's a really big deal. One of the real challenges in recent times is the is the, you know, this move to a online and, online sales. And and, really, what we wanna make sure we're doing is is that we're it's a level playing field.
So all of the folks that buy equipment, the the the stuff they're buying is also subject to that tax, and that's a problem right now. You can imagine with some of the online platforms that are not, you know, Amazon and all the other ones. So we're working hard to make sure that, we are we are not only making sure that the playing field is level for our manufacturers and our retail folks, but, also that the states are realizing the benefits of that those dollars because that's really critical to how they maintain operation and fisheries.
Tom Anderson: Tom, this is a subject that's probably a whole show because I'm guessing as I didn't, you know, way long ago, most of your listeners probably don't even know much about this excise tax.
Tom Rowland: Like, hey.
Tom Anderson: I'm fishing here, but that's probably a whole another subject. But that's
Tom Rowland: We we've covered we've covered it a a a few times, as it applies to hunting and fishing. But if you wanna if you wanna just give an overview of what it is, it's a that would be great.
Tom Anderson: Well, what what I was gonna suggest in this short format as an introductory thing is I just go down and I'll list the topics that we're covering this week in these sessions you were asking about. The excise tax is one of them. Issues around regulations regarding lead fishing tackle is an issue we discussed yesterday. The de minimis act, which has to do with what level of import, do we charge duties on for imported products. The PFAS issue, which is, you know, chemicals and things. California salmon issues, Pacific Northwest salmon issues, the California 30 by 30 implementation, which has to do with, preservation of shoreline and water areas. There's near nearshore rockfish assessments. There's the Gulf Of Alaska king salmon ESA petition.
On the East Coast, we're dealing with the Atlantic striped bass issues, the Mid Atlantic Fishery Management Council items, which is a whole list of items, the red snapper issue, which you're very familiar with, the Southeast regional issues. On the freshwater side, you know, they're addressing today the Aquatic Invasive Species Commission and their asks the Mississippi River Basin fishery issues, which there are many, forward facing sonar and how that impacts different things that people have questions about, and then a whole bunch of state, legislative and policy issues throughout the country. Then we get to other issues with the Everglades, with the coral, with there's just so many issues. So the point being that it it you could almost see how this meeting, and this sport fishing summit could take up two, three weeks, with the issues that we all face.
And that's where so sport fishermen, whether they realize it or not, wherever they are, are actually up against all these issues. And and, you know, we're trying to be champions of the cause and and sort of have representation so that we get a fair shake when all these things are being considered.
Tom Rowland: So let's let's talk about that for a second. That would be in terms of the government. Right? So when all these things are being considered, what's going on there is that this would be some sort of a lobby in favor of sport fishing concerns. Is that correct?
Tom Anderson: Correct. And, Larry, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the outcomes of all this work is an official publication that gets presented to legislators, congress and the president's office, especially now with a, you know, change potentially in administration, to where it says, hey. This is this entire industry's position on these issues is one of the outcomes. Right?
Larry Phillips: Yeah. Not necessarily one of the outcomes of this specific, summit, but what what we do is we make sure that, when there is a change of administration like we're going to see here soon, nineteen days, I believe, that they, we we provide them with a a summary of the issues that are important to our industry, the issues that we've been working on closely. Because as you know, Tom, the the challenges are many. They have a potential to significantly impact both negative and positively impact our our industry. And we wanna make sure that, as we enter into those, you know, this new, leadership and this new administration that they're aware of these issues. And so we're working hard at that level as well. That's that's the that's essentially the outcome of of all these conversations we're having as we would live.
Tom Rowland: So as it applies to the people that are listening to this this podcast right now, It's one thing to bring awareness to these. It's another thing to have lobby. But part of what Tom and I are hoping to accomplish with this Anglers Unite is that there are actual solutions that if if we can raise awareness around these issues, that people can understand how important they are, that a king salmon issue is important to a Florida fisherman as water quality is to northeastern fishermen, that it all all anglers have a voice, and together our voice is very strong, fractured, and and regional, and small is very weak. So is that something that's being discussed about if you come up with a with a, a summary of of these issues and where where we stand as a as an industry on these particular issues?
I'm sure that that's a very difficult thing to do because everybody has an opinion of what should happen. But, ultimately, there will be one one position on a on an issue, I guess. How important is it that just the recreational angler, the the person that just likes to fish, you know, a couple days a month, a couple of couple of weeks a year, I don't know, how important is it that they understand these issues and and unite around them?
Larry Phillips: I think it's critical. And, you know, Tom and I talk all the time. There's there's there's a lot of us out there. Right? We have, millions and millions of anglers tens of millions of anglers across the nation that that participate. And, you know, like you said, that some of them participate, you know, infrequently, but the quality of opportunity that they have is directly related to the advocacy that we can provide. It is it is critical that we find ways to align and push from the same side. The the ability for us to be effective, it's so easy for the regulatory process to marginalize an individual or or a small group as you put as you put it. Mhmm.
If we can align ourselves to the point of, you know, being recognized as as, both, you know, really important that that people making decisions have to think about, you know, what does the recreational industry think, or what does the coalition think? And from my lens, that's really the the the avenue for success for us. ASA has a platform. We have our Keep America Fishing platform where we we have, you know, alerts for advocacy, and there's a variety of different topics that have come up over time. But that from my lens is really critical to our long term success as an industry and making sure that policies, are developed that that are important to us and and support recreational fishing long term.
Tom Rowland: So as it comes to, this industry, sport fishing as a whole, I'm sure that the ASA, they do an incredible job of having stats. I'm sure that they have relayed some of these current stats, to you at this meeting. Do you have an idea, of a of a recent financial estimate of what this industry is worth and and why that would be important to whoever the new administration is gonna be and why they should be, considering hunters and fishermen, specifically, fishermen for this particular podcast? How big is it?
Larry Phillips: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I should have had that in front of me here. I might get my my memory is telling me it's about a $150,000,000,000 industry annually to, you know, across the nation that is it's all fisheries and and, so, you know, you can as you as you suppose that and and it all it's variable depending on what location you're at. You know, we're in San Diego right now and, you know, it's it's it's billions of dollars of of of, recreational, associated recreational, dollars come into this community for people that come here to fish from all over the world. Bluefin tuna, for example, which is a great success story right now. But it is it is it is paramount to many of the economies of coastal communities and and, that we have meaningful and and healthy fisheries so that we we can, realize the benefits of those.
Tom Anderson: And, Tom, to your point, I think that's Yeah.
Tom Rowland: Probably one
Tom Anderson: of the most valuable mechanisms we can use to lobby at the federal level. Because other industries, commercial fishing, let's say, they have very easy numbers to put together because they're all about the revenue, right, and the number of jobs. So that there's very easy numbers there. We're so fragmented and diverse that it it's hard. So to your point yesterday, one of the presentations was about just that, which is, hey. How many fishermen do we have and fisher people do we have in the country? Are we gaining or losing? We happen to be gaining right now, but we're there's just some attrition as well. And they look at it from that standpoint. What is the economic impact? The harder thing to discuss at the federal level is, well, what's the, social and and human impact and benefit of fishing? You know, one of the first things people said in this meeting yesterday was, why do you fish?
And people said family. It's people's passion. It's like it generates happiness in the family. Well, that's a hard thing to just put as a line item to say at the federal level we should do this because it supports people's families and mental well-being. Right? So the financial part is probably the most leverage that we have, which is huge.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Larry Phillips: Tom, if you go to our website on the ASA website, you we have a we've we've spent a lot of resources, time, and and energy and money on exactly what you just said on quantifying the economic impact. And it's by state and it's by district. So it's one of the tools we have to go to the legislature or of each state or, go to congress and and really tell our story about how important recreational fishing is to the economy of each state. And and
Tom Rowland: Well, it certainly does get get someone's attention. Really. You know, you can be saying, this this has you know, this could be 30,000 jobs in your in your area. That's gonna get a senator's attention or something like that. But when you when you walk in and you can say, this is a 150,000,000,000 industry, and you are not paying attention to what is important to us so that we can continue this. That's that's a good way to get someone's attention, for sure. And ASA has always done a a very, very good job with those stats. I don't I mean, I'm sure that they have a whole team every year updating that and trying to come up with the most reliable and legitimate stats that they possibly can because that's that's where you ultimately hang your hat on that and and certainly get people's attention.
One of the things that's super important to me as a fisherman that likes to fish in a lot of different places is access. Just the just the simple ability to go to a place that I was able to go to for the rest for for my entire life, Am I going to be able to continue to go that? Well, how much of what is discussed at this place, I heard you say that that is one of the one of the pillars is access. How much of of the current, you know, discussions that that have been going on have revolved around just fishing access? And I know we we have the whale issue in, in the Gulf Of Mexico. That is an access issue, in my opinion. If you can only idle, you basically can't go there anymore. So how much, have we been talking about access?
Larry Phillips: We we we spend a significant amount of our time addressing issues like that. You brought up the whale issue. Right whales on the on the East Coast, I mean, that is is, you know, it's good a good policy that addresses the needs of the whale, but also addresses the the needs of our our recreational community. We've been leaders in that, area. I'm I'm not myself, but our my counterpart, Mike Wayne, on the East Coast has been working with Congress, has been working with industry. We're looking at variety of technologies. But as you pointed out, you know, it effectively closes fishing if, our vessel speed restriction implements policies that would would limit our speed limits to 10 miles an hour. We would essentially close fishing offshore to almost the entire East Coast.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Larry Phillips: So that that's that's a that's a big issue.
Tom Anderson: You know, one other aspect of that too. So So just on that issue, what I found interesting yesterday was there's discussion in this organization about, wait a second.
Tom Rowland: If if we can
Tom Anderson: we are concerned about the whale's well-being, of course. Sure. But there's all kinds of technologies now that might help us show that, hey. Well, you know, because of this. And that's something the industry is working on. But on the other hand, like, I think of access, you know, where we live pretty remote, and having boat ramps and places to park a boat trailer is a huge issue, and you see attrition there. And so one of the things that I've noticed is that this, this fund that comes from the excise taxes, you know, that gets collected. And I think it'd be really great to explore this more because I'm really interested in it personally. That money gets given right to the each of the states on an allocation basis. And a lot of that can go towards, let's say, boat ramp.
In Washington state, there was a case where the state just actually bought what was a private boat ramp that wasn't economically viable anymore. And that's where that money's going. And that comes right out of fisherman's pockets when they buy gear. And so making connecting that loop is really important.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Larry Phillips: Tom, one of the biggest issues we have in
Tom Rowland: Yeah. And that's a self imposed
Larry Phillips: I was just gonna add that one of the biggest issues we have on the West Coast here, specifically California, is this 30 by 30 movement right now that, really from a state standpoint, they don't 30 by 30 is a global initiative that looks at protecting marine areas as, to conserve and enhance biodiversity. I mean, obviously, there's a loss of biodiversity worldwide, and it's a it's a it's a problem. But the state of California's interpretation of of addressing this and and calculating and preserving 30 of their shoreline, is their interpretation is it's not protected unless it's closed to fishing.
Well, that is a real challenge for us that we work closely through the regulatory process that we believe is the most transparent and inclusive in the world under the Magnuson Stevens Act, where these our councils meet across the nation to develop fishing rules specific to, good science and and, you know, a public process. This process that's in place in California is just a categorical exclusion to fishing, and and it's a real threat. It's a it's just got a potential. Right now, we're at about 16% of the goal. So they're going to be, looking for an additional 14% of the total shoreline in California, to to, fall under this this category of dirt will be protected. And we're, you know, we're working with them closely, but advocating for, the issues that really affect biodiversity. Stormwater runoff is a huge one here in California
Tom Rowland: Right.
Larry Phillips: That we believe is really the biggest challenge they face. When it rains down here, they tell people not to go surfing because the water's toxic. So, addressing the real issues and being, using a science based approach is really critical for us and for ASA.
Tom Rowland: It's really interesting. The tax issue is something that I hadn't really thought about about online sales and where does that tax money go because as we've discussed before, this this excise tax is a self imposed tax from fishermen that we chose to pay this extra money and this money would be distributed to all kinds of things, boat ramp, access, I'm sure law enforcement, I don't know, a whole host of things that ensure that we can continue to fish. It's a great success story. But I never thought about how that is how Amazon could affect that. And maybe if you're if if a lot of people in Florida are buying tackle and other things from another state and that money is not being returned to Florida. That's a real that's a real issue. I never thought about that.
Tom Anderson: Well, just on that point, it's been really interesting for me learning about the excise tax. We pay it. It's supposed to be a consumer tax, but it's collected from the the producers, the industry, the manufacturers. And it really isn't state to state. The real issue that Larry was getting at was that, within The US, everybody's pretty good at identifying when a tax is is due and collecting it. It doesn't matter if if I'm based in Washington and sell to you in Tennessee. There's a sellable point there that's identifiable tax issue. The problem and they are trying to come up with a term. Yesterday, they were calling it slippage, meaning if a foreign company has a website as an ecommerce site and a person in The US buys from that foreign company's website directly and they ship directly to the consumer, they're they're bypassing and not having to charge or pay that excise tax.
People will pick on Amazon a lot, but to me, it's like, you know, I know a bunch of guys up by me that buy. There's this pretty neat guy in Japan that has a a tackle shop, and he has an ecommerce site. You can go on his site, has English translation, and buy these really cool Japanese fishing things. I'm guessing that he's not calling the IRS to say, hey. How can I give you my tax that I'm supposed to give you? Right? So there's a lot of, missed money there that should go right to these issues.
Tom Rowland: But on the Amazon front, Amazon is gonna be, they're gonna be paying the tax. Right?
Tom Anderson: It depends. That's something we're trying to understand. And to, Larry's point yesterday, we talked about that. It's like when when this tax was concepted and adopted, there was no such thing as any ecommerce. Right? And so it needs to be updated because Amazon really just serves as a they never really actually make or produce, possess, or sell anything. So really the obligation is on the first person that's selling it in The US, whether that's at a distribution level or wholesale or retail. There's very complex equations to figure out what the tax due is. But, Amazon is a it's a tough one to figure.
Larry Phillips: One and that the challenge is is that this, you know, we we we we have a law that's been in place for a long time on this, and it didn't address ecommerce. So we're we're trying to play catch up and, you know, who's responsible for that? And that's where ASA has been working closely with Congress and and other folks to to to adapt this new ecommerce platform to the sport fish restoration that's necessary, and, you know
Tom Rowland: Very interesting. Yeah. That that could be a whole show in itself, to to to learn about that and see, you know. I I guess it it then it comes back to anglers of, like, you know, there there are more responsible ways of buying things than others, I I would assume, if you're interested in in contributing that tax to, you know, the resource. So
Tom Anderson: Well, and, Tom, an interesting side point on that, our local CCA chapter up in the Columbia River Gorge, it's part of the Oregon State chapter. We discussed this at a meeting a couple months ago, and there was these issues in Oregon that a lot of the anglers on the Columbia River have been, concerned about. And I actually asked the question of the, chairman. I said, well, do we know as a group here what the state of Oregon is using the funds they get out of that program for? And most people in the room didn't even know there was that program.
Tom Rowland: So I
Tom Anderson: think it's and this is relevant to your our segment of your podcast, the Anglers United. Let's let's say as anglers that participate in our local CCA chapters, for example, or whatever that might be, Puget Sound anglers or whatever you have there, ask that question. And then as a group, get a hold of our state legislators to say, hey, or the Fish and Wildlife Department, say, can you tell us the funds you got this year from this federal excise test program and what they went to? And maybe be part of deciding at the state level. You know, the the the more local you work, the more effect you can have. But these issues we're talking about are federal programs that affect local anglers in their waters, and I think we can probably help educate, anglers like us in their community on how to be part of the asking those questions and be knowledgeable and aware
Tom Rowland: of the
Tom Anderson: way those monies are being spent.
Tom Rowland: Sure. And that comes to solutions, and that's what that's what I like. It's like, it's one thing to raise awareness. It's one thing to talk, to complain, to to to point out injustices or or threats. It's another thing to come together and Mhmm. And really work towards solutions. And that's that's what, you know, I'm the most interested in. And so in in that regard, when you have all these people from all these different areas, different councils, different, different things that they're representing, and obviously different problems. Even in that summit that's going on there, how how how successful are we at people coming together and and deciding that it's it's better to push from one side as you put it than than, you know, we're all pulling on the same end of the rope.
Larry Phillips: Well, I I I think we got a lot of work to do. I think it's, I mean, Tom, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot of personalities in the in our industry, and there's a lot of, you know, different approaches that that, have taken. And I think there's some platforms that you can look to that have been successful. But, you know, Russ Dunn, we have a there's a national meeting. Russ Dunn is the NOAA, recreational manager for the nation. And, at the last when I first came on, I attended the meeting, and Russ Dunn described the the recreational fishing industry as a circular firing squad. And, you know, to a certain extent, he was right. But I, you know, I I can't think of anything more important than, you know, finding the seven out of 10 issues that we all agree on and collectively advocating for those issues. And I think that Keep America Fishing does a good job of giving us a platform.
You know, again, we've got a lot of work to do, and I think we we've gotta find a way and appreciate this opportunity to even just highlight it to your listeners. But, at the end of the day, recreational fishing is critical, to the economy, to the social, to our our, you know, our communities. And we've gotta find a way to make sure that we've got a voice at the table. And we are we're listened to or and taken seriously. And I I when I left, I I shared with you a bit ago that I was with the state of Washington for a lot of years, and I I didn't leave because I didn't believe in the agency, but I left because I thought there was a there was a huge opportunity for me to be an advocate for this exact issue. And and that's where I'm where I'm focused on and and addressing the issues, but also trying to find a way to align us to, to affect change.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Yeah. Very, very interesting. So when you're talking about these things, we we, Tom, you you outlined, I have eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen. I don't know. Maybe thirteen, fourteen, 15, and then some smaller, issues. So 15 issues. In a in a few days, I mean, you could sit there and talk about the tax issue for two days. You could talk about lead, fishing tackle, and what we're gonna do, imports, PFAS, salmon, the 30 by 30, the rockfish. You could end up talking about these for many days. How do you how does how does the meeting decide, okay, this is settled, and it's time to move on? What how how do you get to that point? Is it amount of time that you allot to these discussions or or what?
Larry Phillips: Well, yeah. These are ongoing discussions. These have been going on with our membership. I mean, I my engagement in the the list that Tom shared on the West Coast, you know, I I am engaged in salmon conversations about the preseason planning process, the in season management, you know, the the, post season roundup, you know, evaluation of how we did for the year. And though that takes place every year, essentially. Salmon are unique that we there it's complicated management, but it also is really important that we're we're involved in understanding what opportunities we might have coming up. Many of the stocks of salmon are listed in the endangered species act, so we navigate this this complex regulatory process of of identifying opportunities that give access to abundant harvestable stocks while protecting, weak or ESA listed stocks. That's for salmon.
So that it just goes on year round, and really it's an update to to members. It might be a call to action. For instance, some of the red snapper conversations are happening. It might be a keep America fishing, advocacy, you know, action alert that folks can go to. But we also can come away with it with, you know, some resolutions or some some after action, direction to either staff or maybe it's a letter or maybe it's, you know, a position statement. But, you know, these these are the I mean, and, again, you as you mentioned, there's five issues that I brought up on the West Coast that are, you know, that potentially could have a significant impact on our members and the community in general. Well, Larry, you, as
Tom Anderson: a member of your committee now, but then also as an industry person, that work actually happens all year round. So my take on this particular summit is it's a Mhmm. Place place where, a lot of cross pollination can happen. You know, at these, sit downs, you're sitting next to somebody you may not have ever met before that's in the same industry, that has something relevant to that generates ideas. Right? And then there's also the official business part of the meeting to where it's the actual resolutions are adopted and the business is done. And that's that's always nice to do in person, I think. But the work that, you know, Larry and his crew do is year round. I mean, these issues are so complex that, it doesn't just happen in one day for sure.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I'm certainly happy, to know that that's all going on there and that anglers like me and that are involved in the industry, but anglers that are just your your basic once a once a year kind of person are being represented and their interests are being represented in the interest being most mostly that you can continue fishing. Right? Access, I think, is number one. And then there are all these other things. Well, access also, that's hand in hand with the tax issue. Right? The access comes with money and that is funded by by that tax. So everything comes after that, I think, in my opinion, but I'm glad to know that you guys are there. If if people are interested in learning more about ASA, about what that work is about this summit, I'm assuming that, the ASA website is the best place to go?
Larry Phillips: Absolutely. Yep. Asaasa.com? American American Sport Fishing Association.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Americansportfishingassociation.com. We'll put that in the show notes. And then if, people whether I mean, do regular anglers support the ASA
Larry Phillips: Absolutely. Or
Tom Rowland: is it only manufacturers? And if so, how do how do people, show their support financially or otherwise?
Larry Phillips: I mean, there's certainly there's you can donate to the Keep America Fishing, effort. There's link on the website. You could certainly join ASA. There's a there's an individual, opportunity to join ASA. But it's it's yeah. And all that information is available on our website.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Cool. And so you have the rest of the day, with some meetings, and and is this when the business is done today?
Larry Phillips: We're gonna wrap up tomorrow morning. Folks will be flying back to their locations all across the nation, and, we'll conclude our sport fishing summit.
Tom Rowland: Great. Well, Tom and I, are going to continue this series, Anglers Unite series on the podcast, and we're going to tackle some other issues. Tom, in your opinion, what would be six of the most important issues that you think we could bring awareness to and unite anglers around a cause that we could actually make a difference?
Tom Anderson: You know, we've you and I kind of identified six rough basic issues, two in the Southeast, two in the Northeast, two in the West Coast, or I think there was one or two inland sort of issues. And I think in light of what, you know, I've learned this week, it'd be great for us to have that conversation about, okay. Well, like you said, it's fun to talk about the issue, but how do we re make resolutions and how do we make progress? And so I think this process that I've experienced here this week is is great to keep in mind in light of the conversations we're gonna have. So we identified on the West Coast, basically, the salmon issue, which could be its own whole 12 part series, but the salmon issue. And I think parts of that will be of interest to your Southeast listeners who's who may travel to Alaska or the Northwest once in a while to salmon fish.
They certainly would like to be able to do that in the future. And then we have this issue in California specifically about this 30 by 30 initiative and then also the nearshore rockfish issue. So those are the two West Coast issues I'd like to focus on for the West Coast. And we talked about this red snapper issue, talked about, a couple issues in the Northeast.
Tom Rowland: Okay. Well, probably more issues are gonna become evident, just because that's what always seems to happen.
Tom Anderson: And I guess, Tom, I guess I just realized that I I think this, tying together this excise tax, the fund, the way it gets distributed, and how it's used, and my experience at this our local CCA meeting about that, I think that'd be really great to try to set, you know, your listeners out to to say, hey. When you go to these meetings, let's ask these questions and and learn. Like, if we can protect one boat ramp in somebody's fishery, through this funding, I think that's a huge win. I it'd be great for everybody to know that.
Tom Rowland: For sure. Okay. Well, I appreciate you guys coming and and giving us an update of what's going on there. It's certainly a very important meeting as it applies to anybody that likes to fish and certainly those that make a living at it that, it's a very, very important meeting. And I appreciate you guys up there working for us. And, yeah, looking forward to hearing some resolutions and continuing this series. We're planning on putting out about one a month, to cover these to cover these issues. But Larry and Tom, thank you very much for coming. And, if you wanna check out, Tom's stuff, burnowinburnowin.com, they make quick change parts for your boat, which make your boat customized perfectly to to you. We've we've you've seen us use the rod holders, the the fillet tables. There's all kinds of awesome stuff. Go to bernalan.com. And Larry, is there any way we can send people your way?
Larry Phillips: Absolutely. American Sport Fishing Association. Check us out on the web. Keep keep, an eye on Keep America Fishing for action alerts that, that, you know, are call to action for issues that are important to our industry, but, appreciate the opportunity. To get.
Tom Rowland: You
Tom Anderson: bet. Thank you for what
Tom Rowland: you're doing. Thanks, Tom. Thanks for the time today. See you. Alright. Good luck. Take care. Rest of the day.
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