Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 940 is my conversation with Dustin Diefenderfer, the founder and CEO of Mountain Tough, the Bozeman, Montana functional-fitness company built for the mountain athlete. We get into what it means to be ready for the backcountry, why so many young Americans are failing basic fitness standards, why clean eating may not be enough, and what Dustin would change about American health if he had the power to do it. It is a wide-ranging conversation about physical readiness for real life.
Listen now: Apple Podcasts · Spotify · Listen in the player · Press play in the audio player on this page.
Dustin Diefenderfer is the founder and CEO of Mountain Tough, a functional-fitness company that started as a training gym in Bozeman, Montana focused on the mountain athlete. He built the brand around preparing people to thrive in the backcountry — for elk hunting, sheep hunting, and other demanding pursuits — and has grown it into an app-based program with customers worldwide, including military units, hunters, and people who simply want to be in excellent functional shape.
Mountain Tough is a functional-fitness program that began as a CrossFit-style gym in Bozeman, Montana with an angle toward the mountain athlete. Dustin defines being mountain tough as someone thriving in the backcountry. The company now runs a robust training app with programming for home, road, and gym setups, including a daily minimal-gear workout that expires each night to replicate the original class experience.
Dustin shares an alarming figure from working with military units: about seventy percent of youth come in ineligible for military service because of health issues. Even among the thirty percent who do enlist, he says some are suffering bone injuries in boot camp because their bones are not strong enough to handle demands that previous generations could. He uses it as a warning about declining physical resilience in America.
Dustin's most pointed take is that even people who eat clean can be harmed by what is in their food. In the Mountain Tough community, people make daily decisions to eat as clean as possible, but he calls it a silent killer because ingredients allowed in American food — many banned in European countries — can still bring down someone who trains hard and eats well. He references the broader food-quality conversation happening publicly.
Dustin describes physical fitness as one leg of a bar stool. Stuck in comfortable cars, comfortable homes, and comfortable desk jobs, many people never sharpen that physical leg — and eventually the stool tips over. His point is that real-world emergencies, from a car wreck to an intruder to a natural disaster, demand physical capability you only have if you have trained for it.
I asked Dustin what three or four things he would do to change the overall health of the United States within two years if he had the power. He gives a concrete answer rooted in food quality, physical preparation, and the kind of cultural shift that could come with a health-focused public figure in a position of influence. Listen to the episode for his full prescription.
Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 940 with Dustin Diefenderfer of Mountain Tough is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and iHeartRadio. Press play in the audio player on this page to hear the full conversation.
I first found out about Mountain Tough as a gym in Bozeman, a place a lot like the functional-training gyms I visit when I travel, but with a real angle toward the mountain athlete — the hunter who has to carry a heavy pack in and out of the high country, in bad weather, after an animal that does not want to be found. Both of my sons went to Montana State in Bozeman, so this one was personal. I wanted Dustin to walk me through what he has built and what he has learned about American fitness. I came into it as a student.
Press play in the audio player on this page to hear the whole conversation.
Dustin defines being mountain tough as someone who thrives in the backcountry, and the training reflects it. What started as revolutionary local classes in Bozeman is now a worldwide app with programming for every kind of setup — home gym, road, or full facility — including a daily minimal-gear workout that expires every night. He explains how the community and the local training got the company off the ground. Listen to him describe the philosophy.
This is the stat that stopped me. Dustin says that in working with military units, about seventy percent of young people now come in ineligible for service because of health issues. Worse, some of the ones who do make it to boot camp are breaking bones because their skeletons are not strong enough for demands that earlier generations handled easily. He connects it to how sedentary and comfortable modern life has become. Press play to hear it.
Dustin calls food quality the silent killer. He points out that people in the Mountain Tough community work hard to eat as clean as possible, yet ingredients allowed in American food — many of them banned in Europe — can still undermine someone who trains hard and eats well. We get into the broader public conversation about what is in our food, even the food marketed to athletes. Listen to that part of the episode.
I put Dustin on the spot: if you had the power, what are the three or four most important things you would do to change the overall health of the United States within two years? His answer is specific and rooted in food, physical preparation, and culture. It is the kind of clear-eyed prescription you only get from someone who works with everyone from elite military units to weekend backcountry hunters. Press play to hear his full answer.
Listen to the full conversation: Apple Podcasts · Spotify · or press play in the audio player on this page.
The day after talking to Dustin, the bar-stool image is what stuck with me. It is easy to let the physical leg of your life go soft when everything around you is built for comfort. But the moment you actually need to be capable — in the mountains or in an emergency at home — that is when it matters.
The other thing I keep thinking about is his point on food. You can do everything right and still be undermined by what is hiding in clean-looking food. It is a good reminder to pay attention not just to how much you train, but to what you put in your body.
Press play in the audio player on this page, or grab Episode 940 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
The Tom Rowland Podcast brings you long-form conversations with the most accomplished anglers, hunters, conservationists, and outdoor professionals in the game. Listen to every full-length Tom Rowland Podcast interview.
Dustin Diefenderfer is the founder and CEO of Mountain Tough, a functional-fitness company based in Bozeman, Montana that started as a local gym focused on the mountain athlete and grew into a worldwide app-based training program. He works with hunters, military units, and everyday people who want to be physically capable in the backcountry and in real life, and is an outspoken voice on food quality, physical preparedness, and the decline of baseline fitness in America.
Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 941: Dustin Diefenderfer
In this episode: "seventy percent of youth are coming in ineligible for military service because of health issues," the barstool with a physical, mental, spiritual, and nutritional leg, the "silent killer" hiding in clean eating, whatever happened to the Presidential Fitness Test, training for a once-in-a-lifetime tag, and the mission to "change a 100,000 lives" — in the exact words spoken.
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Dustin Diefenderfer: This is Dustin Diefenderfer, CEO of Mountain Tough, and this is the Tom Rowland podcast.
Tom Rowland: Alright, Dustin. How are you, man?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Good, man. How you doing?
Tom Rowland: I'm real good. I'm glad to have you on. I, I don't know if you know this or not, but my, my son who helped us set this up, he went to Montana State in Bozeman, graduated there, and then my second son went to Montana State also, graduated there. And I have been to your gym a number of times.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. We were talking about that this morning.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It
Dustin Diefenderfer: was a few years ago you were in the old building and
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Dustin Diefenderfer: The old building. Looking out. We gotta get you this new one.
Tom Rowland: Well, I'd love it. I love it. I loved your setup in the old one. I don't know what the new one's like, but, you've kinda changed, changed your program, I think. Is it open to the public anymore?
Dustin Diefenderfer: It is not. No. So I ran mountain tough class for over six years. We had morning sessions, noon sessions, evening sessions, and we had a really amazing community of Bozeman mountain athletes training with us every day. And we always had the digital stuff going. We had the digital programs up and running since 2017. And it was two unique businesses. One was our online presence. One was our local training. Our local training was feeding the creation of everything we're putting online because we we've had the ethos of test athletes since day one. So every program has to be tested before it can go into the app or, into any of our programming. So now fast forwarding into 2024, we are actually filming content almost sun up to sun down, and there's test athletes in here all day long. And so the amount of locals in the lab is still high. But instead of a class, they're either testing or filming or creating some sort of program that's gonna go in the app.
Tom Rowland: That's cool. How many, programs do you have now?
Dustin Diefenderfer: So the app the app's been crazy. It's it's it's gone global. So we have customers all across the world now from, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, anyone that is training for functional fitness for the backcountry, military athletes to to hunters, even non hunters that just wanna be in, you know, excellent functional shape. But programming wise, we probably have, like, 17 to 19, maybe more, offerings. So everything from beginner, intermediate, elite, heavy pack, weight vest, on ramp, body weight. The amount of programming in the app now is pretty robust because over the years, we found that, you know, some people train at home, some people train on the road, some people go to a gym, some people have their home gym, And then a lot of individuals never have the same setup Right. Throughout a given month. And so the options have always been built on what our customers are looking for. The biggest thing, though, for sure, is we added a product to the app to replicate that class experience because the, you know, the mountain tough classes that we used to do locally were so kind of revolutionary for our industry. No one was really training that style. And there's a lot of components that go into training with a great local community. You have the camaraderie, the fellowship, the accountability, and every day is new and different and fresh. And so a couple of years ago, we launched the minimal gear daily, and it's a brand new minimal gear mountain tough workout every single day, and it expires every single night. And you hit play on that, and it's fully coached. So it's like being in the mountain tough lab in your living room. You have a mountain tough coach, and then you have two mountain tough athletes that you're competing and benchmarking off of. And I say that because we have those 17 to 19 programs, but our daily suite has hands down, become the most popular, viral thing that we've ever done. The minimal gear daily turned into several products. So we're we're big believers on training holistically, so physically, mentally, spiritually, nutritionally. And now there's those in that daily format. So we have, daily prayer now. We have, daily mobility. We have daily full gear and daily minimal gear. So a lot of people are still doing programs, but most people have transitioned to that daily training.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's cool. Was it, was it difficult, or was it an easy decision to go from having the the gym open to the public to moving away from that? Was that an easy to say I mean, it was probably a hard decision because you gotta say goodbye to some of the community there. But this may have been, like, on paper, Does it just look do you look at it and go, man, we we just gotta go this direction? Like, what was that like?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. It was interesting. It was brutal from the community standpoint. The community was really close and tight knit. And, also, me as the founder, the community and the local training is what got the company off the ground. So the local training was always kinda my baby because Mountain Tough started with me training just a few guys in the park behind my house.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And then those park sessions grew, and we went into a lease gym, and then those grew. And then we went into our own gym, and those grew. So the local community aspect was always kinda like my baby. It it fired me up. It filled my cup. But business wise, we knew that there was a whole another side of changing lives and to change lives and reach our goals. We knew that this needed to be a very well done global product that anyone could access across, the country or the world. And we knew that to accomplish that mission, we had to shift our focus, and our focus needed to be, you know, how can we change a 100,000 lives versus
Tom Rowland: just changing
Dustin Diefenderfer: the the 60 people that are coming into this gym every day. And so it was it was not easy. It was a very difficult year. It was it was the right decision. When I when I started Mountain Tough, I had a previous entrepreneurship journey. And through that previous entrepreneurship journey, I knew I wanted to create something that was scalable. And it's, very difficult to scale local training, past a certain point. And it it was tough, but I'm I'm glad we went that direction.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. How did you, what were you always an athlete and a trainer? Or how did you get into training people behind your behind your house?
Dustin Diefenderfer: It all started from kind of my upbringing. I grew up in Montana, and my dad came from a large family. There was nine of them. Seven of them were boys. And they grew up in the mountains outside of Sheridan, Wyoming. So they were in the Bighorn Mountains. And that that family did a tremendous amount of backpacking, horsebacking, fly fishing, high mountain lakes in the Cloud Peak Wilderness. A lot of time, elk hunting. And so I grew up just with this outdoor lifestyle with a lot of uncles. And, you know, every second of our lives, we were doing some sort of backcountry trip. And then I kinda turned into a gym rat in college. But my my gym rat experience was kind of unique because of that upbringing. Everything I was trying to do was train specifically for archery l cunning. Mhmm. And at that time of my life, archery l cunning was my passion, and I was so passionate about it. So every time I went in the gym, I was trying to make sure I was training to be better that upcoming September. And in twenty in 2016, there wasn't a lot of people telling you what to do step by step if you wanted to be a better mountain athlete. There was a there was a few PDFs on some heavy pack workouts. There was a few PDFs
Tom Rowland: on What year was that that you're say that you're saying there wasn't much?
Dustin Diefenderfer: That was 2016.
Tom Rowland: Okay. 2016.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And so I I I was doing all this elk hunting. I was training a lot in the gym to be a better elk hunter. And, my wife and I were doing a lot of marathon running and ultra marathon running. And kind of this light bulb moment went off that it was a it was a unique business opportunity to to train outdoorsmen because, it was a blue ocean when we started. No one was was doing it. And it was a passion of mine to kinda push people further than they've ever been pushed.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And we went we went for it very bootstrapped. And so I I drew a napkin, logo. I picked the Ibex because I Googled what's the toughest animal in the world, and it showed me this ibex that was scaling this cliff and running from snow leopards. So I sent the napkin idea to a buddy, and, he turned it into a logo. And then I I printed a flyer, and the flyer said, I'm looking to train backcountry hunters. And I hung that flyer at the bow shop. And three guys called, and those are the first three guys I I started training in the park.
Tom Rowland: They still around?
Dustin Diefenderfer: They're still around. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
Tom Rowland: I, I have a group myself that I that I train with or train them, but, the the group the group aspect is is huge. And, I mean, whether it's partner workouts or something, but there's that accountability, and there's that community, and that is a really big part of it. But I like how you have the four pillars, and I I believe that to be true also. Like, there's mental training. There's physical training. I'm interested in the nutritional training, what you're calling nutritional training. What is that just tell me describe that as as you would to a to a prospective customer.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. We keep ours pretty simple from that nutritional pillar, and there's a lot of content in our app around that now. We have a nutrition coach on staff at Mountain Tough. His name's Kyle Camp, and he decided several years ago that his specialty would be nutrition for the mountain athletes, specifically backcountry hunters. And so we all follow his recommendations, and his recommendations are so incredibly simple. It's whole foods and high protein, medium carb, and it's avoiding as much processed food as we possibly can. And so he he keeps it really simple for the Mountain Top community, and that's worked really well for me personally as well. So we look for the most natural foods we can that aren't previously processed. And then we're all kind of managing our intake based on our goals. And so he has a good formula around if you are trying to lose weight, you gotta just make sure that that intake is less than that output. So your calorie burn plus your workouts for the day, if you're trying to shed some pounds, you gotta manage that number. And then there are, you know, a lot of individuals also trying to add some muscle, add some weight. And so just, like, reversing that scenario so that your intake is more than that output, so you can put on that extra muscle or those extra pounds.
Tom Rowland: So the the people that are coming to you are probably already, pretty physically fit and already know something about nutrition. But how much are you surprised, when you talk to fit people about nutrition, do do you are you surprised that they know more than you think they do or less than they than than they might should know about nutrition? Like, where do you think the the kinda average athlete looking to get better, do they know a lot about nutrition or know very little about nutrition?
Dustin Diefenderfer: I think that nowadays what we see is people are fairly well informed. The the kind of prevalence of content over the last couple years just on, you know, higher protein and and managing, you know, macros. Nine years ago, no one really knew what macros were. It was way less common to talk that language with people. But most people we're running into now have a pretty decent, base understanding of what's good and what's bad and kinda how they should balance out their day. I think there are, there are there are always people looking for a little bit more performance, a little bit more performance to to reach their goals. And so kind of fine tuning that depending on what they're looking to achieve is more common now than kind of starting with those basics like we saw a few years ago.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm. I saw one video on your on your Instagram when I was, doing some research and started out it was basically about the current state of health in The United States. What do you what do you think the current state of health is right now for general people? Not not not people that are trying to go elk hunting, but just the general population.
Dustin Diefenderfer: It's really bad. We've been trying to talk as much as we can about that. We have used some language this year that's titled America We Need to Talk
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Because it is, it is an epidemic of bad health. So, statistically, it is causing many, many issues that are that are pretty mind blowing. So even right now, we were just working, with some military units, and seventy percent of youth are coming in ineligible for military service because of health issues, and those health issues allow them not to actively enlist in the military. And so those are numbers unheard of in American history. And even what we saw working with those individuals was what has happened is some of those thirty percent that are still getting in and going to boot camp, they're actually having bone injuries because their bones aren't strong enough to handle the demands of boot camp like they used to be in America. And so that's pretty shocking to me. It shows that you have a kid that beat that seventy percent rule. So he's he's actively not obese. He doesn't have any medical conditions that are giving him prescriptions, keeping him out of
Tom Rowland: the
Dustin Diefenderfer: military. But still, after he goes in, the boot camp is causing damage to his bones because his bones
Tom Rowland: have the foundation.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. And so they joke around at those units. They'll say, like, these kids need to drink milk and play outside again. And that is a lot of what is going on, is that they weren't playing in the park. They weren't running around with their buddies. They weren't jumping BMX bikes all day after school. And so even though they might be lean and they might pass the baseline requirements to enlist, their bone structure isn't strong enough. And so, you know, that's just one symptom of a lot of different issues. We we talked in some of that content that you saw that it's like eleven percent of adult American men that can do one strict pull up. And you think about, an emergency in your hometown, a car wreck in front of you on the way home from work tonight, an intruder coming into your home, or any sort of, hurricane, avalanche type condition. There's so many times in life where we're gonna have to pull our own body weight up Right. Or we're gonna have to pull our friends and family up.
Tom Rowland: In my world, it's it's being on a boat. People fall in all the time, and most people are not able to pull themselves back into a boat. Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And they're out there fishing
Tom Rowland: all the time. Yeah. And they're not wearing a life jacket. Like, if you couldn't pull yourself back into the boat, you should be wearing a life jacket, like, for sure. But, I mean, some of these boats, you know, have have weird I mean, even for an athlete, it's if they have weird angles and they're they're slippery and, you know, people take really good care of them, there's wax all over them, it could be tricky to get back in some of these boats. But, you know, if you can't physically do one pull up, it's going to be really hard to get back in the boat, especially when you're fully clothed, soaking wet. And so many people never even practiced that one time. They've never jumped in with their clothes on to see if they could get out.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. It's so true. I'm scared. Yeah. And it it's, you know, it's so interconnected to that holistic conversation we're having. We we talk about the analogy that's helpful is if you have a barstool, and that barstool has four legs. And one of those legs is physical, and one is mental, and one is spiritual, and one is nutritional. You can't just be really strong in one of those legs with the other three being weak
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Without that barstool falling over. And that is a lot of what is going on is the the comfort crisis has made Americans seek comfort at all costs. And that comfort has led to a lot of affluence, and the affluence, can kill us just like, anything else. And so, being stuck in these comfortable cars, in these comfortable homes, in these comfortable jobs, at a desk a lot of the day without sharpening that physical stool or that physical leg of that bar stool, eventually, there'll be a point in our life where that stool will fall over. And sometimes we don't know when that day is gonna come. I mean, we we talked to an individual last week that he had went out on a rescue because, one of his school chaperones had fell and hit his head on a rock during a school event. And the kids ended up carrying the EMT gear up the mountain because the EMTs were not in good enough shape to make it to the patient. What? And so these things can, you know, they can strike any time. We're not we're not we don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring.
Tom Rowland: Well, we have, one big development just just lately is, you know, the election's over. There's going to be a change and, Robert F. Kennedy coming in. We don't know exactly what he's going to be responsible for, but he has somewhat been tasked with improving the health of The United States. I've got ideas on what I think that he could do, as someone that could could make broad, sweeping changes. What and we can talk about what my ideas too are, but I'd like to know what you what you think. Like, if you were put in that position, what do you think are three or four most important things that that anyone could do to change the overall health within two years of The United States?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Two things came to mind when you asked that question. The first one was the stuff in our food really bothers me. And you see that a lot when you travel internationally. So if you go anywhere internationally, people are eating foods that we would sometimes define as unhealthy, but they're extremely healthy individual. And so you'll see this, almost anywhere other than America where they'll be eating kinda like fatty pork or fatty beef, high carbs. Sometimes, like, if it's in the European countries, it's very high carbs, wine and cigarettes. But they're an extremely fit population compared to what you'll see, like, at a lot of American airports, especially, like, in the South. The the obesity epidemic is obvious. And so something is in our food, even our healthy food, that is causing us to be extremely unhealthy. And that one drives me crazy because, like, in the mountain tough community, we have a community of people that throughout the day in their life, they're making decisions to eat healthier and eat clean. So they're looking for, high protein. They're looking for organic ingredients. They're looking to eat as clean as possible, but the clean eating is not enough because there's something in that clean food that is causing negative negative ramifications. And you see that with, there's a testosterone drop in American men at an all time record level, and that's even across guys that are working out all the time. And so it that one is like the silent killer because if you're working out, you're training, you're eating healthy, there could be something in what we're eating that's still gonna bring you down. And I really I really have high hopes that, RFK can can help there.
Tom Rowland: I do too. And that was one that's that's on my list. That's number one too. Take out the poison from the the food system. And and what's hard about the poison in the food system is that it's really hard to put a finger to point a finger at what exactly that is. It's like you're saying, like, even in clean food, even in stuff that that is coming from, like, athletic type food companies that are that are trying to fuel athletes, there's still a lot of things that are allowed in the food that are not allowed in European countries. And just like I don't know if you've seen, like, lately Casey Means and, and, Cali Means, and the food babe did this thing where they went to Kellogg's, and they were they were saying and Jesse Itzler has been doing the same thing for years. It's like, why do we have 200 ingredients in this box of Froot Loops, and then the European box of Froot Loops has 20 ingredients in it? If it's not allowed over I mean, that just seems like the the simplest thing that he could do right away is just say, look. If it's not allowed over there, it's not allowed here. You already have the recipes and the and the machinery and everything to create these same foods. You're marketing the same foods to to the European countries. They're not allowing all of these other ingredients, so we're not going to either. That seems like a weeping change. I don't know if that would fix the problem exactly, but man, look at you could take a lot of stuff out, bad stuff that we know is bad. Mhmm. That one, just just straight up, like, if it's not allowed there, it's not allowed here. I don't know why that we would allow that for our population. We should have the healthiest food. We're making it here.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah, I think it's a big problem. It's gonna take some time to fix because I think it is connected to capitalism and profitability also. So, like, if I can put something in your chips that makes you wanna eat that whole bag of chips rather than just a handful and then you're full, if I can put chemicals in there that makes you not feel full so that you finish the whole bag and want more, and then you're gonna buy more and my company is gonna be more profitable. So we have to fight that battle and then
Tom Rowland: Definitely going on. And and for somebody that has high willpower, you really don't have a chance. They have hundreds of food scientists working on that to break you down. Like, all you gotta do all you gotta do is open the bag and have one. I mean, that was even, like, the the tagline. You can't eat just one. Like, they do it's like yeah. So my like, I don't know. I just don't do it. You know? Like, if I'm gonna open something up and eat it, I'm probably gonna eat the whole thing. I know that right away. So I don't even dabble with it. So it's like, just no. Not at all. I don't want it. Well, I do want it, but I'm not gonna eat it. I'm not even gonna have one. And so people are like, you got such incredible willpower. I'm like, no. Willpower would be eating four or five and stopping. That would be amazing willpower because it's programmed for you not to do that. Like, there are chemicals in there that that mess with your brain or your gut or your blood sugar or something that you now have to you gotta eat it all. Mhmm. It's an amazing amount of calories.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Like It's proven, yeah, it's proven addict addictive chemicals in
Tom Rowland: there. Yeah. But some of those chemicals are going into, like, bars that we think are healthy. Mhmm. Like I don't know. Maybe even the companies that are using them don't realize that they're not healthy, but it but why is that ingredient not allowed in other countries? It's a Yeah. Weird thing. Then the other thing, like, what about what about, like, like, there's obviously some issues with with pharma as I see it. Like, I don't I don't even know where he's going to begin there, but I did read something yesterday that that he said, the first thing that one of the first things that he would do is to, to return our organizations that are there to protect the the health of the American people, that they are captured by pharma and to return those to, being a protector of our health, right, as opposed to, oh, well, we'll just let this one slide through. You know? And that seems to be happening. Yeah. That seems another place where where someone could come in with authority and change that.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, that one is a a massive uphill battle that I I think he'll make an impact there. But it's, that mentality that anytime you go into the doctor's office, anytime you're not feeling great, just a general acceptance that you should be handed a bunch of pharmaceuticals to fix those problems where I think we all know that the fix for for ninety percent of these problems is is a good physical routine and is good, nutrition. And so if we were if we were training, we were moving every day. If we were doing some cardio and doing some weight training and watching our nutrition, then we certainly wouldn't need, pharmaceutical after pharmaceutical after pharmaceutical. And that has just gotten more and more prevalent, and it's more and more prevalent with our youth too. So it, you know, it used to be the older Americans that were getting kind of sold drug after drug, pill after pill, but that that age keeps coming down. And then you think about, you know, the fentanyl problem is interesting too because the fentanyl pouring across the southern border is very interesting as fentanyl, like, is a medical drug that you would also use for surgery, and part of our American drug addiction is also coming from this pharmaceutical addiction.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's, that one that one seems to be a much tougher battle. Not that the not that the additives in food aren't directly tied to profits, but certainly the drugs are directly tied to profits. That one seems to be like, okay, you can maybe change some things, but I don't know that it's gonna be a sweeping change right away. Now, one sweeping change right away, I'm 56. How old are you?
Dustin Diefenderfer: I'm 42.
Tom Rowland: Okay. So at 42, you probably had PE in school, right? Mhmm. I don't have PE in school anymore.
Dustin Diefenderfer: That was my second point I wanted to make for sure is when you asked that question, I thought of the food right away, and then I thought of the second thing I would do is bring back hardcore PE at school.
Tom Rowland: You ever see those videos of of those those that school in California that they used to those guys are, like, going across the monkey bars and they're doing pull ups and they're doing, like, a gut obstacle course and dips and and every I mean, there'll be like 50 guys out there and they're all doing b ups and push ups and it's amazing. And they all look so healthy and fit and strong. And that's the way it used to be. I mean, when I was a kid, we had the Presidential Fitness Council. Did you have that?
Dustin Diefenderfer: We had the Presidential Fitness Test once
Tom Rowland: a year. Yeah. That's what I mean. Presidential Fitness Test. And you would go and you would, like, run we I remember we had to run, like, a 600. That was that was one of the events. Pull ups was another one. I think there might be push ups, but you got, like, a certificate. Like, if you pass, you're you're, like, 97% or 98%, and then you got the best certificate. They would bring you up, you know, you would have, like, a a thing at the auditorium, and they're like, oh, these people got this, and these people got this. And it was really amazing. But all it wasn't just that you had that test. Mhmm. All year long, you're having a class in the middle of school where there is physical activity and some physical education about movement and, you know, the proper at least you know the proper way to do a push up. Yeah. I mean, I don't see that anymore. It's so weird. And for me, like, the one place that you should be able to blow off some steam and and get some exercise is when you're a 10 year old at school. Mhmm. You're just gonna tell that kid to sit there all day long and and expect that, like, especially a boy. Like, a a 10 or 12 year old boy, you're just supposed to sit in a chair all day long and pay attention and don't move. Like, that's that's the one place that you need it more than anything else, like an hour to just go redline your heart rate and then come back and sit down and you probably learn something. Oh, and
Dustin Diefenderfer: that's Yeah.
Tom Rowland: That seems like a sweeping thing.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. And then you you could then you can't hold. Yeah. You can't hold still, so then you're diagnosed with ADHD and you're given a pharmaceutical.
Tom Rowland: Right. And it seems like I mean, to to you and you and I like thinking about that, doesn't that seem like real common sense that the reason that the ADHD has gone through the roof is lack of activity, and you're trying to tell them to sit in a in a chair all day long and not act up? And if as soon as you do, you're diagnosed with something like that, I don't know. Yeah. That's smart, but it does seem like if you get some I mean, all you gotta do is have a dog. If you got a dog, a puppy, a one and a half year old lab Labrador Retriever, Keep that thing in your house and don't give it any exercise and see what happens. It will chew everything to pieces.
Dustin Diefenderfer: You gotta run them.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. If you run them, though, they're perfect. Kids are really similar.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. We watched that video a couple months ago that you were talking about, and it was from j f JFK's big campaign.
Tom Rowland: Right. It was from And
Dustin Diefenderfer: those kids in that video look like army rangers.
Tom Rowland: I hope they do.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Every single one of them and not a single one of them has any signs at out at all of obesity. I mean, they all are super fit, super jacked, super lean, and it's not just one yeah. It's not one or two of them. It's like the whole entire class. So I I couldn't agree more. I mean, we have to we have to make some changes in the youth. We have to make some changes on, you know, how they train, how they exercise, how they get outside. We at our house, we made the decision we're gonna going into our fifth year of of homeschool. And so I have two young daughters. They're 12 and 10. But I was just talking to my wife about it the other day. Our youngest for sure would be diagnosed with ADHD if she was in a public school system. So they they do homeschool from about nine until eleven, and then my wife kicks them outside. They jump on the trap trampoline. They run around the block. And then every day at three, they go to gymnastics and train from three to six. So, they're getting about three to four hours of physical activity each day. But even with that activity, my 10 year old daughter, she cannot sit still for more than three seconds. And so, because of homeschool, she actually, like, she's learning as she's bouncing around the basement. But in a normal classroom setting, like, there would be a high likelihood she would be diagnosed and be offered some sort of treatment.
Tom Rowland: But you don't see that? Like, no. And so when when do you think that, like, with your experience of, training people and you've got the gym right there, when when do you think, it's appropriate to to bring a kid into into training?
Dustin Diefenderfer: I think you expose them as early and as often as you can. I think even if you're training at home, you're training in the basement, and having them around, having them watch you, I think there there's been a lot to do that with our family where, you know, the girls don't always wanna work out. They don't always want to work out with us. I I don't think that, like, pushing super hard on on the really young ones is the right answer. But what I have noticed is by them being around mom and dad working out hard all the time, it's become normal. It's not weird to them. It they know that, like, a hard workout is gonna happen every single day. They're gonna watch their mom do it whether they're participating in it or not. And I think that that set them up on a really pretty good fitness journey because it's not something that they had to add to their life when they were 28 that was, abnormal or, you know, they had no gym experience, that it breaks the walls of intimidation. Mhmm. And so exposure at a young age, I think, is is really important. And then what what we've done that has worked well when we want them to work out with us at a young age is you will get with my experience with children, you will get some pushback because, they'll say, dad, just because you work out every day doesn't mean I need to work out every day. And switching the conversation has helped us. I'll say something to the effect of, like, look. This is kind of the family business. This is the family beliefs and ethos. You know, we train hard, and we wanna be always ready for anything. You you don't have to train with me five days a week, but you do need to do it twice a week. And that kinda switches that mindset of, like, oh, okay. Like, this is part of our family that I'm required to do this. Mhmm. I'm not I'm not forcing it on them, like, every single time because they still are kids at the same time. And that's worked pretty well for our house.
Tom Rowland: You know what else works good? Is, telling them, like, especially well, I mean, I have two boys, and then I have a a younger girl. And, my daughter came to the workout every single morning, and it's 05:00 in the morning. And so she would get up. I wouldn't have to wake her up. She would get up and she would come downstairs, and she would, you know, run around through the workout. People are dropping weights and, you know, doing snatches and stuff, and she's all through there, and she's climbing ropes and doing all kinds of stuff, but she just loved to be part of it. Now the boys, I told the boys, you know, I I want you to be here. I want you to watch, and and and you can be around anytime, and this is your place too. But you're gonna have to get a little bigger, a little stronger before you can get into the workout. Like, before you before you do a workout like all we do where we set the clock and we go and we're gonna do this workout, that's that's for big kids. And and you're gonna need to you're gonna need to kinda be able to do these things before, and then they were like, man, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do that. Because you told them not to. Right? That is the, you know Chalice stuff. Yeah. And and that reversed that's what you really want them to do, but they, you know, you just tell them that they can't. And then, of course, that's the only thing they wanna do.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. Reverse psychology.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. It works better on boys than it does on girls. Girls look too smart. They're like, oh, you don't want me to do it? Okay. Cool. I'm upstairs. I'll see
Dustin Diefenderfer: you later.
Tom Rowland: But boys are like, oh, I gotta get in there now. Now you got it. I'm gonna do it. Yeah. I'm gonna get in
Dustin Diefenderfer: that that challenge.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So, where do you do you have any other, ideas on what what RFK or any other person that had the authority could do?
Dustin Diefenderfer: I'm changing the health of the of the nation.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. I think nothing off the top of my head right now. I think that we've been talking a lot about the food one. I mean, I I remember last year we went to Mexico and, we were on an odd ad hunt with some really good friends that are Mexican. And they had us over for lunch at their house and the oranges on the table were really weird shaped. They were not perfectly round. They were smaller than our oranges at home. And they weren't they had some, like, bumps on them, and the skin of the orange wasn't a bright orange. And I remember opening that orange and being like, holy smokes. This is, like, the best tasting orange I've ever had in my life. And they're like, yeah. They're way better than American oranges. And I was like, this is crazy because it's, like, the ugliest orange I've ever seen, but it's the best tasting orange I've ever had. And they starting these guys had been to America a lot of times, and they're like, yeah. We we don't even buy fruits or vegetables when we go to America because they taste terrible to them. They taste awful. But yet our oranges at home are, like, softball sized, perfectly round, bright orange skin on the outside, but no flavor at all on the inside. So, like, our our American passion and in like, innovation has gone a little too far. I don't think it was always bad intentions, but there was some bad intentions when we talk about, like, the addictive chemicals and chips.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: But some of the farming practices were all around efficiency. Like, how can we get more efficient? How can we have less waste? How can we have, big, beautiful products? But the stuff that allowed that to happen is killing us. So that is gonna take a little while, to reverse it. It's a massive, you know, uphill battle that I think RFK is fighting. And it's a it's a hard battle for us to fight personally because to really eat clean nowadays at home, you not everyone can have, like, a homestead at their house. Not everyone can have a beautiful garden that they're managing themselves with their own chickens.
Tom Rowland: And all your wild game that you're that you're killing.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. All the wild game, you still have an uphill battle. So I'm I'm really excited that he's pursuing this make America healthy again. I mean, I I saw him announce that, and I was like, this is this is amazing because he's talking about, like, the fluoride in our water. And, he's going after everything, which which we really need kind of that widespread attack.
Tom Rowland: Right. The fluoride in the water is interesting, because, I mean, I don't know. There's just one dose for everybody. So you could be three hundred pounds or you could be eight pounds, and you're getting the same amount of fluoride, which I think might be the problem. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I've fished with dentists that swear up and down. It's it's good. It's it's a it's it's a fine thing to have in the water. It saves everybody's teeth, and and, you know, these are these are friends of mine. They're dentists. I think they have they have the their community's best interest at heart, or at least they have been led to believe that that's the case. They wouldn't be doing it if it was hurting people. They're not trying to hurt people. I do know that about these particular individuals, but they were like, man, it's good. Like, fluoride in the water is good, but I think fluoride in the water might be good if you're getting the appropriate dose. How do you know if you're an eight pound baby or you're a four hundred pound man? It seems like the dose would be different. Right? Like, that seems like the problem. Maybe not the actual fluoride is the problem. It's the amount that you're getting either as a kid or as I have no idea. I don't know. I mean, fluoride is a poison. There's no doubt about that. But how much do you I mean, what's an appropriate level? And what's an appropriate level that when you drink it, it is very advantageous advantageous for your dental health, but too much is not good. Mhmm. Like, I don't know. But there's I mean, you turn the tap on, everybody's getting the same amount. That doesn't seem you don't disperse any other drug that way, any other any other thing that way, except sugar.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And I
Tom Rowland: Should do with sugar.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Sugar. Yeah.
Tom Rowland: And I
Dustin Diefenderfer: think same with sugar. I think RFK is citing that the fluoride is good for your teeth, but it it's leading to this Alzheimer's epidemic. So it probably is helpful to everyone's tooth structure, but the overdose over time could potentially be leading to a lot of this cognitive function, online that we're
Tom Rowland: seeing. You know, one of the other things I had on my list, and we kinda talked about it, is, like, mom and dad, like, leading by example and and educating your kids that, you know, or at least being around it. Like, if you can you can't expect to well, I don't know. Maybe the maybe the easiest thing is to just put PE into into public schools, and then most of the kids are getting exposed to that. But I don't know. I mean, you could probably give any amount of incentive to a lot of adults and they're still not going to exercise. They're just I mean, you can see every fitness fad that has ever happened seems to be an avoidance of actual work. Like, you got some kind of band you're jumping on or or like you know what I'm talking about? It's like there's there's been so many things that it's like, it's just you're going to a class and you're doing some kind of thing, but and you're getting some exercise, but for the most part, it's it's basically an avoidance of actually working out. Mhmm. It's like anything but that. Yeah. So I don't know that you're gonna really incentivize a lot of people that don't exercise that, but at least it's going to be something that is in the forefront. I wonder if it's going to be rejected by people of differing opinions, politically. That now being fit and you already saw it happen a little bit, where being fit or going to the gym or being healthy or being concerned about your health is more of a right wing kind of thing, which is it couldn't be further from the truth. I mean, everybody needs exercise, and everybody of every persuasion exercises and benefits from exercise. Yeah. But I don't know. What we're going into, I'm very optimistic like you are that this is going to be something that can be a real change. I mean, noticeable concrete change. But I just wonder, like, does it become like a political, tool for one side over the other to to to avoid it or call you a bunch of quacks or I don't know.
Dustin Diefenderfer: I know. You just don't know yet. I think it it would be nice to see it hold one level higher than, I think, fitness and pulled into that level of that this stuff matters for your your family. This stuff matters for your community. And, like, a a stronger family is gonna have a stronger community, and a stronger community is gonna have a stronger town, city, state, country. Is it I think for a lot of people, the the why has to be big enough for it to have a lifestyle change that lasts multiple decades in their in their fitness journey. And so what we've seen over the mountain tough trajectory is that someone who has the why of I drew a Colorado elk tag, and I'm intimidated by the elevation, and I'm really out of shape. But now I have this tag, so I need to get in shape. If that's their why, we see them sign up for mountain tough. They'll train really hard. They'll go on that Colorado elk hunt, and then they will get right back out of shape again because the why was to hunt. And you see that a lot of times with different fitness journeys that people will will go on. And so it's always been really interesting to me what's the difference between the person that has been training for thirty years versus the person who's kind of always on that training roller coaster.
Tom Rowland: What do you think it is?
Dustin Diefenderfer: What I think it is is it is, identity and, legacy type thoughts. So the the people that train for multiple decades and pass on that fitness lifestyle down to multiple generations, They're usually not thinking about training for that elk hunt. They're having thoughts that are more similar to, I wanna be a good example for my kids. I wanna be able to play with my kids, hike with my kids, compete with my kids. I wanna be able to compete with my kids when they're 28 and I'm 58. I wanna be able to fish when I'm a grandpa. I wanna be able to, be there for my community. It's usually that identity type stuff that correlates with people that are in the fitness lifestyle for multiple decades.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm. Yeah. It's it's, that's that is interesting. And then I think you also have to enjoy the process in some way, shape, or form, like whether that's through the community that you're around or you like you ultimately, you you have to like it can't be a drudgery. Like like, oh, gotta work out again. I mean, if that's the way you feel about it, you're you know, maybe you make it to the Elkhart, But you you you're probably not gonna go further. But if it's like, I'm getting a little bit better at this, you know, I I'm trying some new things. I'm I'm I'm with my friends. I'm Mhmm. Having some sort of fun doing this. Like, you know, I train and then, I don't know, my wife wants me to play pickleball. And we we have fun, like, and I now I can do it. I can go further and longer than anybody else out there. Like, I don't know. There seems to be something there has to be something else that, like, some sort of enjoyment. That's what people ask, like, they're trying to, you know, change their their fitness, and they they'll ask you because, like like you, I've been doing this for multiple decades. Like, how do you do it? Like, what do you what do you how do I do it? Right? It's like, first thing I tell them is you gotta find something that that you that you think is kind of fun. Right? So if you like tennis, just play tennis. That's a good start. Like, you're getting out. You're moving. That's a good start. It's like you don't have to if if you if you're so afraid of, like, the gym and and it's just not at all fun to you, there's a lot of ways to exercise, man. You can go walk. You can take a run. You can ruck. You can swim. You can play golf. You can play tennis. There's like, anything is better than nothing. Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And then
Tom Rowland: get a group around you of some sort and then, like, move. Like, just move. How how what's what's enjoyable? Is riding a bike enjoyable? Then do that. Yeah. And then that leads to something else. Yeah. Right? Like, it's that little win of, like, man, I exercised three times this week. Next week, maybe try four. Mhmm. And maybe I'll do not all bike. Maybe I'll try that class at the gym. Like, I don't know. Just seems like a win leads to other wins, and you start you start to, like, make some sort of a consistency out of it.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yep. Yeah. I've seen that work extremely well. I think that those big goals and those big ideas start to show up in their lives after they get some of those first initial wins. So someone who hates the gym and has struggled ever having any consistency in the gym, you see that story over and over again where they'll go to jiu jitsu. Mhmm. Jiu jitsu is fun, and all their buddies are there. Right. And then they'll they'll shed 20 pounds because they're training hard there. And then because they lost 20 pounds, now they're kinda interested in that 10 or that Spartan event down the road. And those kinda bigger visions start showing up after that initial fund surge. Right. And I think you're you're spot on. I mean, there are a lot of different ways to have a physical active lifestyle. And I think that just making sure that it fits your personality and seeing if you want community or no community, there's a lot of different options.
Tom Rowland: So when it comes to, like, on the other side of the coin, you've got somebody that draws some exceptional tag, and and they're the guy that you just, that you just described. That tag is going to lead them into the mountains. They are currently not in the the shape to get it done. They're either going to go with an outfitter, or they're going to try to DIY it. Either way, they've probably got a lot of money invested in this thing. There's got a lot of time invested in it, and and if they've done this, they want their best opportunity to succeed. Mhmm. Where do you start with somebody like that, especially that is gonna go to, a high altitude area and maybe and in a lot of the you know, this could be a Florida hunter that drew somewhere else. It could be somebody that is absolutely not, accustomed to the altitude and has no idea how to train for it. Where do you start with somebody like that, and how do you how long do you suggest that they train for it? Obviously, as much time as they possibly have, but, where do you start, and how do you kinda help them navigate to getting in the kind of shape that it takes to to be successful?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. So we always tell them that you can never start too early, so you're gonna wanna start training right away. For some people, that trip of a lifetime is a year out, but many times it's much shorter than that. And so if they drew a tag and they know they're going into one of these high elevation expedition type experiences, they should start training now. And now is gonna be different for every person depending on that deadline. But the bare minimum we really wanna see them do is sixteen weeks of specific training for that trip. And so we designed that the mountain tough preseason prep program around that exact scenario. If someone if someone draws that Colorado tag, that Alaska tag, they're going to rugged terrain, high elevation, multiple days, a heavy pack on their back. We want them training on a pre season prep program for sixteen weeks. But that's four months. If this trip's not for eight months, you you still should be training now. Every day that you can train before that that trip is gonna make a huge difference. And so our original mountain tough preseason program was twelve weeks. And then the science was pretty clear that, like, a lot of these cardiovascular adaptations are gonna take twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen weeks. Some muscle maturity takes time. And so now it's a sixteen week program. And then over the years, we've gotten better at ramping someone up for that program. So in the old days, we used to just throw them right into pre season prep, which was a pretty intermediate and elite level program. And now it is, very specific. We start with an on ramp, and then the on ramp takes them to a foundation program. Foundation then is gonna take them into pre season prep. So it's taking them step by step so that there's no injuries, everything's safe. They're not gonna get into any overtraining issues. So now we go from on ramp to foundation to pre season prep to the hunt, And that has worked really, really well for us. I think in addition to that, they should start thinking about how can I spend some time in the outdoors before this trip? Because what I've seen a lot historically is someone in that scenario that you mentioned that drew this very expensive, oftentimes trip, they're gonna make sure that they're buying, like, the best high end gear. So they're gonna they're gonna have a lot of money invested in, like, their rifle, their optic, their clothing system, their backpack, their optic system. And they're thinking about that and working on that type of stuff all the time, but they're forgetting many times about their physical fitness, which is what is gonna actually lead to them being successful on this trip. So they they need to think about their body and their mind as the most important piece of gear that is going on this trip. But that usually doesn't happen. They're usually gonna think that, like, this $8,000 rifle is the most important piece of gear. They need to kind of flip that perspective and and think that them in their mind and I say their mind because what we see a lot of all the time is a lot of individuals will go through all the physical training, but they've never put themselves in any sort of adversity under, like, a shooting scenario. So they've never been stressed out. They've always shot just perfectly balanced at the range, but they've never, shot under a lot of pressure under time, elevated heart rate. So the mental and physical training is is what's gonna lead to a very successful trip. And by success at Mountain Tough, we define that as someone thriving in the backcountry. Like, the backcountry is always gonna be hard, and the backcountry is gonna throw a lot of unforeseen elements at you with the weather. But thriving is possible. And so thriving is, you know, not being stuck in your tent, not being so sore that you can't hunt on day two, not being so sore that you that you come home early. And and a lot of hunters are are coming home early on trips of a lifetime. And, you know, when you get in the Alaska type sheep hunting communities, these are these are $50,000 trips and people are coming home early. And it's really common. And and they're coming home early, not because they didn't buy the perfect gear. They're coming home early because they weren't physically or mentally ready.
Tom Rowland: And
Dustin Diefenderfer: so in addition to the training and and they should someone should be training whether it's a mountain tough program or someone else's or or something they write themselves or work with a trainer. But you have to think of your body and your mind being your greatest asset on that trip. And a big helpful tool for that is to get in the back get in the get in the wilderness a lot of times before that trip. So, someone who lives in Florida, if they have that Colorado tag, they should still be thinking about, like, can I camp this weekend even in Florida? Like, can I test some of this gear? What's the water gonna do to my boots? Is this rain gear really gonna hold up? So the most successful outdoorsmen are most successful because they're outdoors all the time.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And a lot of the things that are making people go home early are those outdoorsman elements. And so training in the gym and never going outside before a hunt of a lifetime isn't the answer either. So, you know, think about camping, fishing, hiking. What can I do to be outside to always be sharpening my outdoorsman skills in addition to thinking about my body as the greatest kind of weapon I can bring on this trip?
Tom Rowland: Plus boots. Yeah. I mean, that's a killer, dude. Buy all this new stuff and you buy a brand new pair of boots right before your trip, and then you just get blistered up. That is you see that all the time too. It's like you should be training those boots all the time. Oh, yeah. If that's what you're gonna if you're gonna have to climb a mountain in those boots, like, use those sixteen weeks to break them in and get them right. Yeah. That's that's that's I did that, Seal Fit Kokoro and then GORUCK selection also, and that was the thing, man. I trained. I got the pair of boots I was gonna wear, got them wet every day and trained in them wet. Warm wet till they're dry. And I didn't have any problems. I saw these other people, and I was just like, man, this was really hard. It was really hard. But if my feet look like that, there's no way I would have made it. Oh, yeah. Had just I mean, the whole bottom of their foot was messed up. They were, like, elite CrossFit athletes, but they don't ever wear boots. And and they got worked. I mean, worked. I don't know how long it would have taken them to to to do that. But, I mean, it is, something that that you should do. And you might look a little funny in your gym, like like, with a pair of shorts and a and your boots. But, dude, I'm telling you, if you're gonna be walking on that treadmill Yeah. Walk in those boots. And because that I mean, that will I don't care how tough you are. If you if you have bad feet, you're going down. Yeah. Down. Yeah. My, one of
Dustin Diefenderfer: our good buddies, his name is Barrett Sims. He's from Alabama, and he is a mountain hunter. He's hunted all over the world. And he is a giant human. So he's six foot six. He's got a size fourteen. He wears size fourteen Kennetrek hunting boots every single day in his workout. There.
Tom Rowland: So Yeah. And that's where that's And he he's probably had splinters before. And he said, I'm never again.
Dustin Diefenderfer: It's a good pro tip for sure.
Tom Rowland: He sounds like this guy I just had on the podcast yesterday, Ryan Krauser, three time Olympic, gold medalist shot putter. Crazy hunter, crazy fisherman, six foot seven, three thirty five. He ties he ties size twenty two midges. I was like, how? I mean, just give your hands a
Dustin Diefenderfer: giant mid.
Tom Rowland: This big. I don't even like to tie size twenty two midges. I'm a third of this guy's size. But he can do it. And he's a bowhunter. And, he said all I do is bow hunt and fly fish, and he likes all kinds of fishing. But he loves to tie flies, and that's, like, part of his training. Like, he trains six hours a day, eats a ton, but he has to have something to clear his mind. He loves to fish and hunt, and he grew up doing that. Cool guy, though. If you ever if you ever, run into him, he's he's definitely a really cool guy. That's awesome. So what what do you think that the, blue sky for for, mountain tough? Where where are you going in the next five years, you think?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. So our our mission is to change a 100,000 lives, and we define it that way because we definitely are more than a fitness app. It definitely is a lifestyle with the Mountain Tough customers. And we see so much life change because of those pillars. When someone starts sharpening themselves physically, things change. When they start sharpening themselves mentally, things change. And then spiritually and nutritionally, they don't just get in shape. They actually transform their whole entire life. And so the testimonials always have been about that. They've never they are sometimes about the hunt, but the majority of the testimonials are, you know, I was battling alcoholism. I was battling cancer. And now I'm a better father. I'm a better husband. I'm a better friend. I'm a better employee. I'm a better boss. And that's certainly because of the physical shape sometimes, but a lot of times, it's that mindset, that mental toughness. And so we're pursuing that journey of of changing a 100,000. We're we're on track to do that with the subscribers coming through the app. And we'll continue to innovate until we reach that goal. Innovation is is pretty normal around here. It's a very adaptable team and adaptable culture where we let, kind of, the community let us know what they're looking for, and then we make sure it's delivered in the app at a world class level. And so I think the the daily suite is a good example of that. The daily suite gave the Mount Tough community that same feeling of being at that local class right in their basement.
Tom Rowland: Mhmm.
Dustin Diefenderfer: And that that like minded community is also kinda leading to a lot of those life transformations. These people are they're meeting up. They're training together in different cities. They're going on hunts together. They're going on trips together. Once a year now, all Mountain Tough customers are invited to the lab. So the last two years, we've had this tough fest event where mountain toughers around the world fly into Bozeman, and we're all together for a full twenty four hours.
Tom Rowland: Oh, that's cool.
Dustin Diefenderfer: You can just see it at that event that, you know, Mountain Tough being part of their identity is is allowing them to kind of achieve some of those goals they've always wanted to achieve in their life. So we're gonna we're gonna continue to do that and, see where it goes from there.
Tom Rowland: Right on. I was gonna ask, is there, like, a, is there a community, place to communicate in the app? Or how or these people are all getting together? Like, is there one central place that that people communicate?
Dustin Diefenderfer: In our app, there's a lot of community. So they're talking about the workouts underneath every video workout inside of the app. So you'll see a ton of engagement there where, like, on today's MGD, people are talking about, you know, how it went, how many rounds they got, stuff like that. And then, our Facebook community is super active where people are getting into that deeper stuff around, you know, what are you doing with this? Is anyone in Dallas? Can we meet up for some mountaintop training? And so the community is in the app and kind of external from the app.
Tom Rowland: Nice. Well, doing a great job with it. It's really cool. And, changing a 100,000 lives, that's that's pretty awesome, man. And then I know it's I know it's very rewarding. I've seen it in my own life with people that I've helped, and it's gotta be super, super I mean, like you you said it early. It fills your cup. Mhmm. I can see I can see why it's good. And you probably got a great team around you. So good luck to you with all that, man. It's really, really, really cool to to get to know you a little bit better. And, next time I come out there, I'll I'll drop by.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. We gotta get you into the new lab. That's the Yeah. I'll be
Tom Rowland: a tester. You can test. Yeah. You can test on me.
Dustin Diefenderfer: That'd be awesome. Yeah.
Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, it's it's not something that you generally want to, want to invite upon yourself, but I'm just kinda like that. I like I like it. So I know what I know what I know what's coming. When when I invite myself in there to the lab, I know what's coming, and it's gonna be very difficult. And but that's that's what I like. So anyway yeah. And, well, if you ever wanna, come to Florida, you should, think about I mean, there there are physical capabilities that fishing guides have to have, and it's it's something that a lot of people don't think about, but to guide the way that I guided, you basically push a boat for eight to ten hours with a stick in the wind with somebody on the bow. And, it's hard. And a lot of people develop shoulder problems from it, and a lot of people physically aren't capable of doing it. And the what I found is the better shape I was in, the more money I could put in my pocket. I mean, it was a one to one relationship that it was just like being a professional athlete. If I could go more days in a row, I made more money, and I could support my family and I could do better in my business and the whole thing. So I'd I'd, you know, that was one of the reasons, one of the real passions is like I started training so that I could, you know, do better in my job. And then I found that it was essential. And then I found that the better I ate, the better I could do. And the more I paid attention to my electrolytes and hydration in Florida heat, obviously, the better better I could do. It's not just as simple as, like, drink a bunch of water. I mean, you gotta have the the the right electrolytes and then getting those from a good source. And then I just kept learning these little things over time, and it's like each one of these things is making me better at my job. And then somewhere along the line, you just like it. Like, I like this whole process. I like these little tweaks that make me better. Mhmm. And I don't know. I think there's probably an audience out there for you with a fisherman too.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Yeah. I love that. It's really accurate. You just kinda the human performance stuff, the the desire to always think about ways you can be better never ends. No. That process is that process is pretty fun and
Tom Rowland: It is. I mean, when you see one little thing, it's like, oh, if I don't eat that, I sleep better. K? And if I sleep better, I do better. Or if I, you know, if I if my electrolytes are low, I feel this way. If I have more electrolytes, I feel better, and I'm doing better. And so Mhmm. Eventually, it's like if I'm stronger, I can pull longer, pull the boat further and longer, and that results in catching more fish. So the better I shake them in, the more fish I'm catching for my clients. And the more fish I catch for my clients, the more of them return for second time, third time, oh, next week, book me for next year. That's what it that's what it was all about. But, yeah. Well, I've always liked, I've always liked Mountain Tough, and it's really cool to have you on, get to know you.
Dustin Diefenderfer: Thanks. Yeah. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
Tom Rowland: So if people wanna check it out, where do they go?
Dustin Diefenderfer: Just go to mountaintough.com. Click start free trial. Everyone does get a start on a fourteen day free trial. So fourteen days for free, and then that'll allow you to download it on the device of your choice or multiple devices. So after you start your free trial, then you can download Mountain Tough straight from the iOS, Apple App Store, Android. It's gonna stream across all TV platforms too, so you can just download it on Roku, Amazon, Fire Stick. But go to mountaintuff.com and start that trial. That'll get you that, fourteen days for free. And that just like a Netflix subscription, the subscription unlocks everything. So once you start your trial, you'll see all of our programs, all physical, mental, spiritual, nutritional. It opens all content.
Tom Rowland: Right on. Right on. Well, definitely check it out. If you're interested in that, definitely check it out and, we'll be back next week with another awesome guest just like Dustin and, go check out Mountain Tough if you're looking for something different or you're looking for something to get prepared for your next hunting season or even fishing season, like we said. Alright. We'll see you next week. Later.
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