Hayden Rowland | Father-Son Dynamics in Business & Fishing | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 658

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Episode Show Notes

Ep. 660 of the Tom Rowland Podcast is a father-son conversation with Tom's son Hayden Rowland about his first summer as a trip leader for Moondance, an adventure travel company that takes teenagers on backcountry expeditions. Hayden had just returned from leading two three-week sessions through the French and Swiss Alps, his first trip since earning his Wilderness First Responder certification and completing a prior National Outdoor Leadership School expedition in Alaska. He and Tom talk through what it actually took to become responsible for other people's kids in a country he had never visited.

Press play in the YouTube player above to hear Hayden tell this story in his own words, or scroll back up to watch the video.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is Moondance, and what did Hayden Rowland do this summer?

Moondance is an adventure travel company, based in the Southeast, that takes teenagers on backcountry expeditions around the world. Hayden spent the summer as a first-time trip leader on Moondance's Chamonix trip, leading two sessions of teenagers on a twenty-three day backpacking and travel expedition through the Alps, the Pyrenees, and along the coasts of Spain and Italy, his first time in mainland Europe.

How did Hayden Rowland get selected and trained for the trip?

Hayden went through a multi-step interview process with Moondance, including phone interviews and a written survey about his outdoor experience, before being placed on the Chamonix trip rather than one of the U.S.-based trips he expected given his fishing and outdoor background. Before the trip, he completed an eight-day Wilderness First Responder course, then two weeks of intensive Moondance staff training alongside roughly 140 other trip leaders.

What went wrong on the trip, and how did Hayden handle it?

During the second session, a stomach illness Hayden's group nicknamed the Pyrenees Plague spread through his kids. One girl became so dehydrated and weak that Hayden and his co-leader called in a helicopter evacuation. His co-leader went out with her, leaving Hayden alone in the backcountry responsible for eleven kids, two of whom were also seriously ill, while he was fighting the same stomach bug himself.

What did the kids on the trip give up, and how did they handle it?

Every participant had to give up their phone for the length of the trip. Hayden said the kids adjusted to being off social media almost immediately. What actually surprised him was how badly they wanted to know the time, to the point that some of them turned his wristwatch around to sneak a look at it. He came away thinking teenagers are more capable of handling boredom and disconnection than most adults give them credit for.

How does this trip compare to the NOLS course Hayden did previously?

Hayden had previously completed a National Outdoor Leadership School course in Alaska, which he describes as more of a hard-skills, wilderness-living experience. He sees the Moondance summer as building on that experience in a different, more soft-skills-focused way, centered on leadership, community, and being responsible for other people rather than himself. He said the NOLS trip felt more transformational, while the Moondance summer felt more developmental, forcing him to actually become the leader he had only aspired to be before.

What does Tom Rowland take away from his son's summer as a parent?

Tom tells Hayden directly that he and Hayden's mother watched him do exactly what they had hoped, put himself in an uncomfortable, unfamiliar situation and rise to meet it. Tom also draws a parallel between Hayden calling himself the dad of his group of teenagers all summer and his own experience of early parenthood, trusting that things work out because they have to, even when you have no idea what you are doing yet.

Why I Wanted Hayden On the Show

Hayden is my son, and this is one of my favorite conversations I have ever recorded. I have coached him through plenty of things over the years, wrestling, fishing, hunting, but this was the first time he went and did something completely on his own, in a country neither of us had ever been to, responsible for other people's kids. I wanted to sit down with him the morning after he got home, while it was all still fresh, and just hear him tell it in his own words before either of us forgot the details.

What Does It Feel Like to Get Handed That Much Responsibility at Once?

Hayden told me that when he opened the email confirming he had been placed on the Chamonix trip, his first thought was not excitement, it was closer to panic, wondering how a company would trust him with a group of kids in a country he had never set foot in. He talked about studying the trip's logistics book so closely that it started to feel real for the first time, and about realizing there was no turning back once staff training ended. How he actually got from that panic to feeling ready is worth hearing him describe.

What Happens When the Trip Leader Gets Sick Too?

The hardest stretch of Hayden's summer came when an illness his group called the Pyrenees Plague spread through his kids, bad enough that one girl had to be helicoptered out along with his co-leader. That left Hayden alone with eleven kids, two of them seriously ill, while he was fighting the same bug himself. He described it as mentally exhausting in a way that had nothing to do with the mountains and everything to do with being the only adult in the group who could not afford to fall apart.

Press play in the YouTube player above, or scroll back up to watch the full conversation.

What Surprised Hayden Most About Taking Teenagers' Phones Away?

Every kid on Hayden's trip had to hand over their phone for the length of the expedition, and Hayden expected some kind of withdrawal. Instead, he said the social media part disappeared almost instantly. What actually surprised him was how badly the kids wanted to know what time it was, to the point that they started turning his wristwatch around to check it themselves. What that told him about how capable teenagers actually are is worth hearing in his own words.

How Did This Trip Compare to Hayden's Previous NOLS Course in Alaska?

Hayden had already completed a hard-skills National Outdoor Leadership School course in Alaska before this summer, and he draws a clear line between what that trip taught him and what leading the Moondance trip demanded of him. He calls one trip transformational and the other developmental, and explains why he does not think you can really have one kind of experience without the other. How he thinks those two very different trips fit together says a lot about how he is choosing to grow.

Final Thoughts From Me

Yesterday's conversation with Hayden reminded me why I like recording conversations with my own kids. I told him directly that his mother and I watched him do exactly what we hoped he would, put himself somewhere uncomfortable and rise to it, and I do not think he fully understands yet what that summer did for him. I also think there is something in the way he described being called dad by a group of homesick teenagers that every parent will recognize, that feeling of having no idea what you are doing but knowing it has to work out.

If you have a kid heading off to do something hard on their own for the first time, or if you are the kid about to do it, I think this conversation will mean something to you.

Press play in the YouTube player at the top of this page to hear the entire conversation with Hayden.

People & Brands Mentioned

Hayden Rowland, Tom Rowland (host, Tom Rowland Podcast), Turner Rowland (Hayden's brother), Moondance (adventure travel company), National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS).

About Hayden Rowland

Hayden Rowland is Tom Rowland's son. He has completed a National Outdoor Leadership School expedition in Alaska, and in the summer covered in this episode, worked his first season as a trip leader for Moondance, an adventure travel company, leading teenagers on a twenty-three day backpacking and travel expedition through the French and Swiss Alps, the Pyrenees, and the coasts of Spain and Italy.

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Episode Transcript

SOURCE: Google Drive doc id 1zd2v5LbmxkD8YpIrkdKR12vfFVDR7HXOpcop7ZRTAe8, titled 'EP_0660_Hayden_Rowland_-_Moondance_Leader_and_My_Son_-_Episode_660'. Full transcript is 11,689 words (Deepgram Nova-2), sourced from https://traffic.megaphone.fm/WPCM6590962556.mp3 -- this megaphone ID matches the live page exactly, confirming this is the correct source despite the episode-number drift noted below. IMPORTANT CORRECTION: the transcript and live page both identify this as Episode #660 (Hayden Rowland - Moondance Leader and My Son), not #658 as given in the task queue. Moondance is an adventure-travel company for teenagers (NOT a marine products business) -- the pre-existing live article's premise of 'Moondance Marine Products' and 'working together in the marine industry' is not supported anywhere in this transcript and appears to have been fabricated in a prior AI pass; this rebuild corrects that. This field contains a substantial verbatim-content summary excerpt built directly from the real transcript (sponsor ad-read and intro removed), condensed from the full 11,689-word transcript rather than reproduced word-for-word due to field-length practicality. Speaker legend: Speaker 0 = Tom Rowland, Speaker 1 = Hayden Rowland. Hayden opens: 'I'm Hayden Rowland, and this is the Tom Rowland podcast.' Tom: 'One of my favorite podcast guests of all time, Hayden Rowland, my son... you have returned from possibly your best summer ever?' Hayden explains he worked for Moondance, an adventure travel company ('taken teens to the most awe inspiring places' is their slogan), visiting four new countries -- Spain, Switzerland, France, and Italy -- backpacking in the Alps and Pyrenees plus sea kayaking on the Costa Brava. He had never been to mainland Europe before. On getting selected: Hayden went through four phone interviews and a survey about his experience. He expected to be placed on a U.S. trip near Bozeman (Yellowstone or Grand Teton, given his fly fishing background) but was instead selected for the Chamonix trip, Moondance's 'Pinnacle trip,' one of the four international, mountain-based trips he had requested (Norway, Chamonix, Slovenia, Iceland). He got the placement email around March while on the river with his friend Andy: 'They trust me in France with these kids? I've never been there before. So that was really scary. But then my confidence started to kick in... they've gotta see something in me that I don't see.' On training: Hayden did 8 days of Wilderness First Responder (WFR) training in North Carolina with an instructor named Randy, covering blister and burn care, traction splints for open femur fractures, and evacuation planning -- 'a step below EMT.' Then two weeks of Moondance staff training with roughly 140 other trip leaders, running 6:30am to 10:30pm most days. Moondance was founded by Hayes Hitchins and is based in Atlanta, in its 26th season; it runs roughly 50 trips a summer across about 26 locations, including Kilimanjaro, Norway, Slovenia, Fiji, Maui, Thailand, and service trips in Kenya and Zanzibar. Hayden's Chamonix trip was 23 days, their longest. On meeting the kids: Hayden and his co-leader met their group at the Atlanta airport; because the parallel 'session A' leaders were delayed at a wedding, Hayden and his co-leader were responsible for 24 kids total getting overseas, not just their own 12. Kids on the trip ranged 10th-12th grade (ages 15-19 depending on grade level, not literal age). Moondance requires a signed 'good decisions letter' -- zero tolerance for drinking, vaping, sexual activity, or bullying, with removal from the trip as the consequence, though Hayden's group never had to enforce it. On phones: kids surrendered phones for the trip. Hayden expected withdrawal but says the social media adjustment was fast; what actually surprised him was how badly kids wanted to know the time, to the point they'd turn his wristwatch around on his wrist to sneak a look. 'These kids are a lot more capable than they think they are... I didn't see them struggle at all.' On the Pyrenees Plague: in the second session, a stomach illness spread through the group. One girl became severely dehydrated and had to be helicopter-evacuated along with Hayden's co-leader, leaving Hayden alone with 11 kids -- two of them also seriously ill -- while he was sick with the same bug. 'I'm supposed to be this Superman character who can do anything. And here I am, I'm sick.' The kids nicknamed him 'dad' all summer. His co-leader's mantra: 'It all works out in the end because it has to.' On comparing this to his prior NOLS Alaska course: Hayden calls NOLS more transformational (hard skills, wilderness living) and the Moondance summer more developmental (soft skills, leadership, community) -- 'I can't be a leader without first being a student... you can't have Knowles without Moon Dance.' He says this summer he had to actually become his best self rather than just learn about it: 'this trip will not function without me at least attempting to be the person that this trip needs.' Tom's reaction, as a parent: 'I'm super proud of you... you did have this transformational summer that I don't know that you're gonna fully see yet, but we see it... you did just what we hoped you would, and that's challenge yourself, put yourself in uncomfortable positions, in things you had never done before, and then thrive.' Tom draws a parallel to early parenthood: 'you have no idea what you're supposed to be doing, but you know it's gonna work out because it has to.' Closing: Hayden confirms he plans to lead again next summer (working around his brother Turner's June 10 wedding). Tom asks how listeners could look into similar programs for their own kids; Hayden points to 'adventure travel companies for teens' as a search term and mentions a competing company, Apogee, that runs a similar Chamonix trip out of the Northeast. Tom notes that all three of his kids have done a NOLS or Moondance-style trip (Turner did a NOLS wilderness EMT course, Hayden did NOLS Alaska and this Moondance summer, and Hannah has done a Moondance trip too), and recommends the format highly. Tom closes by telling Hayden he's looking forward to elk hunting together that fall. A separate tangent mid-episode: Tom and Hayden compare notes on Tom's early struggles with a new bow-hunting broadhead setup, with Tom drawing an explicit parallel to fishing -- comparing the broadhead problem to casting well on the lawn but struggling once 'the boat's moving' on the water, and to earlier gear-driven learning curves in fishing such as adjusting hook-setting technique for braided line, circle hooks, and fast-action rods.

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