Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 1005 is my conversation with Mike Loughran, the angler behind the Fish Like Mike social media brand. Mike grew up in Buffalo, New York as an all-sports athlete, did not seriously pick up fishing until his senior year of high school, and started filming with a GoPro he taped to a hockey stick. He turned pond hopping and wild on-the-water footage into a fast-growing content brand while teaching elementary phys ed and coaching varsity hockey full time. We dig into how he built it and what he learned about making video that works.
Listen now: press play in the player above to watch the full conversation, or stream Episode 1005 on your favorite podcast app.
Mike Loughran is the angler and content creator behind the Fish Like Mike brand. He grew up in Buffalo, New York as a multi-sport athlete, played college hockey, and worked as an elementary phys ed teacher and varsity hockey coach. He started making fishing videos in 2015 and turned the project into a fast-growing social media brand, known for wild on-the-water footage and a relentless, do-everything-yourself work ethic.
Mike says he really started because he has ADHD and was an athlete his whole life, so when a sports season ended he needed something else to throw himself into. He did not seriously pick up fishing until his senior year of high school, and once he got a car he started pond hopping. His first summer he taped a GoPro to a hockey stick to get angles, and the content grew from there.
For years Mike ran a brutal schedule. He coached varsity hockey practices that started at 5 a.m., taught elementary phys ed all day, worked a part-time job, and pursued a master's degree, then fished on weekends. He explains that because he had so little free time, he became extremely efficient at capturing and repurposing footage, using every spare second to make as much content as possible.
When he started in 2015, Mike shot everything horizontally on a GoPro and posted to YouTube. As the other platforms shifted toward short-form, he began turning the GoPro vertical and posting short clips, which improved how the videos performed. He is candid that stepping back from YouTube was a regret in hindsight, since that is where more of the long-term money is, but vertical short-form is what fueled his fast growth.
Mike was an all-sports kid in Buffalo, with hockey as his biggest sport, and he played two years in college. His brother went on to play professionally at the East Coast level. Mike comes from a teaching family, his dad is a gym teacher and his mom was a principal, and he coached varsity hockey for five years while teaching, which shaped the discipline he brought to building Fish Like Mike.
Tom Rowland Podcast Episode 1005 with Mike Loughran is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. The video version is embedded at the top of this page.
I follow the Fish Like Mike page, and the guy puts out some genuinely wild videos. We do a lot of the same thing on the content side, so I wanted to sit down and understand how he built this while working a full-time job. The story of how he got here is better than the highlight reel makes it look.
Press play in the player above to hear the whole conversation.
Mike's origin story is exactly the kind of scrappy I respect. He did not get serious about fishing until his senior year of high school, and once he had a car he was pond hopping with a GoPro taped to a hockey stick to get the angles he wanted. He explains how that first summer of figuring it out turned into something much bigger. Worth hearing in his own words.
This is the part that floored me. Mike coached varsity hockey practices starting at 5 a.m., taught all day, worked a part-time job, did a master's degree, and fished on weekends. Because he had almost no free time, he got ruthless about efficiency, capturing and repurposing every clip. He breaks down what that schedule actually looked like. Listen to that section of the episode.
Mike started in 2015 shooting horizontal on YouTube, then pivoted to turning the GoPro vertical for short-form as the platforms changed. He is honest that pulling back from YouTube is a regret, because that is where more of the money lives long term. We get into what he would do differently and what actually drives reach now. Press play in the player above.
Mike and I compared notes on something I have learned the hard way: for social, a clip shot on a phone often outperforms the footage from expensive cameras. He talks through his current setup, an iPhone on a little tripod in selfie mode, and how he captures a crazy animal moment in the wild. Scroll up and watch the player above.
Listen to the full conversation: press play in the YouTube player at the top of this page.
What I take away from Mike is the work ethic. He built Fish Like Mike in the cracks of a brutal schedule, using every spare second, and refused to wait for the perfect setup before he started.
The videos are fun, but the real lesson is how he turned constraints into a system. That is the part anyone trying to build something should hear.
Press play in the player above to hear how it all fits together.
Mike Loughran · Fish Like Mike · Buffalo, New York · GoPro · YouTube · ECHL
The Tom Rowland Podcast brings you long-form conversations with the most accomplished anglers, hunters, conservationists, and outdoor professionals in the game. Listen to every full-length Tom Rowland Podcast interview.
Mike Loughran is the angler and content creator behind Fish Like Mike. A Buffalo, New York native and former college hockey player, he worked as an elementary phys ed teacher and varsity hockey coach while building his fishing content brand from a GoPro taped to a hockey stick into a fast-growing social media following known for wild, on-the-water footage.
Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 1005 with Mike Loughran of Fish Like Mike.
Mike Loughran: I'm Mike Loughran with Fish Like Mike, and this is the Tom Rowland Podcast.
Tom Rowland: Mike, how are you?
Mike Loughran: Hi, Tom. How are you doing?
Tom Rowland: I'm doing great, man. Fish Like Mike -- wow, it's nice to have you on the show. I follow your page, and you have some really good videos, man. You really do.
Mike Loughran: It has been crazy over the years. It's just kind of accumulated over time, but there's a couple wild ones for sure.
Tom Rowland: How many years have you been doing this?
Mike Loughran: That's kind of a tough question. I started in 2015, but I haven't really taken it seriously until probably the last five years, and ever since I took it seriously it's really started to blow up.
Tom Rowland: So what got you started? You were just out there fishing and thought, maybe I'll put a GoPro on or something?
Mike Loughran: Really got started because I think I have ADHD, and I was an athlete my whole life. If I wasn't playing a sport -- hockey, soccer, rugby for a bit -- and that season wasn't going on, I couldn't just stay home, and I've never played video games, so if I had nothing to do I had to find something else. I didn't really pick up fishing until my senior year of high school. I always liked looking for animals and going on hikes, but fishing I didn't pick up until senior year, and it all started when I got a car. I got my first car senior year and bought a cheap kayak from Dick's Sporting Goods, and pretty much the rest was history. I put it on the roof of my car, went to local ponds, was pond hopping, and actually taped a GoPro my first summer to a hockey stick -- I'd find old logs thick enough to fit in the rod holder of the kayak, duct tape a Hero 3 to the stick, and the rest is history.
Tom Rowland: And where did you grow up?
Mike Loughran: Buffalo, New York -- most of my time early on is all in New York.
Tom Rowland: And your athletic background -- hockey, rugby, and what else?
Mike Loughran: Soccer and hockey were the big ones. Hockey was the biggest -- I played two years in college, and my brother actually ended up going on to play pretty much pro, in the East Coast League, so NHL, AHL, East Coast. He's a little guy like me, so if he was bigger he definitely would have made it all the way. Growing up it was all sports -- I coached varsity hockey for five years and taught for those five years as well. It's been a wild ride, very busy for sure.
Tom Rowland: How did you get into the teaching profession -- was it through coaching?
Mike Loughran: Kind of a family business in a way -- my dad is a gym teacher, my mom was a principal, so myself, my brother, and sister all went for phys ed. We always joke that my mom would ask why we didn't go for administration, and we'd say, well, we both saw you come home at the end of the day, and one of you was stressed and one wasn't. So teaching was the easy path.
Tom Rowland: What did you study in college to get that certification?
Mike Loughran: In New York it's just a general phys ed degree. I taught elementary, but it's the same degree -- I could have taught high school or middle school. I really enjoyed the young kids though, they look at you like you're a superhero.
Tom Rowland: How old were you when you started teaching?
Mike Loughran: I was probably 20 as a volunteer, and my first job was at 22 -- that would have been 2019. So I'd already been doing videos for a few years, and around the time I started teaching is when I began to take it pretty seriously. But those were long days -- we'd have varsity hockey practice at 5 a.m. to 6:30, shower, teach all day, and Monday through Friday I was working a part-time job and doing my master's. On the weekend I would fish, and that's kind of where content became such a serious thing, because I only had two days to make it -- especially on the coast of New York where it gets dark at 4:30 in the afternoon, so I really only had Saturday and Sunday. I became good at using my time efficiently to make as much content as possible, or to repurpose it.
Tom Rowland: What was the first thing that was kind of the path of least resistance -- what kind of videos started taking off for you?
Mike Loughran: The fishing was good. One of my bigger regrets, if you can call it that, is when I first started in 2015 everything was shot horizontal on the GoPro and posted to YouTube -- there's videos from ten years ago where I look like an idiot in half of them, but it's fun to look back now. When the other apps went more short-form, I'd physically turn the GoPro to shoot vertical and post that on short form, so I kind of stopped posting on YouTube. Looking back, I know that's where more of the money is, and I wish my YouTube was bigger. But turning it vertical helped the quality of short-form videos, and the easiest way I found to make content was just my iPhone -- record a crazy animal doing something, or put the iPhone on a little tripod in selfie mode and talk about a big steelhead or a bass. For some reason those converted way better than the high-quality polished content.
Tom Rowland: I feel that too -- we film our TV shows and repurpose that footage, and it almost always does better if you just shoot it on a phone, at least for Instagram. For TV, the bigger cameras are better, and YouTube seems to favor better cameras too, but not Instagram. Seems like Apple owns part of Instagram or something.
Tom Rowland: You seem to know a ton about all these animals -- especially the possum video. That was one of the first of yours I saw, and I think one of the first a lot of people saw. That one went super viral, right?
Mike Loughran: Yes. That was a big turning point -- that was the first one that put me on the social media map in a way, where I'd posted a ton of stuff leading up to it and got decent traction, but nothing that really set me above. I reposted that video three or four weeks ago, and just in the last month it converted me 40,000 new followers. I think the reason -- and I've kind of taken this into the new year -- is that yes, an eight-second video with a viral audio and a catchy caption is going to do well and get a lot of views, but I'm more focused now on building my brand. A video of a salamander swimming with a viral audio might pull four million views, but people just scroll past -- they don't know who made it or why. When my face is on camera talking about the subject, the conversions are better for follows and retention, because people are more familiar with your face and look at you as the expert on the topic versus just some animal in the woods. Those videos work, but I'm more focused now on building a full personal brand.
Tom Rowland: Well, it's working really well. How many followers do you have on Instagram?
Mike Loughran: It's up around 429,000 or so.
Tom Rowland: That's really good. How did you learn so much about these animals -- through teaching, or your own study?
Mike Loughran: I think it's a combination. Teaching helped me become a good speaker in front of the camera, and it helps me convey information in a way everybody can understand -- even in college, if a professor was way smarter than me but explained it poorly, I couldn't understand it, but I can explain things to a class of kids. So when I'm talking to the camera I almost pretend I'm talking to a class of eight-year-olds, and that's helped get more views because people understand my videos better. Learning the information itself has all just been off of Google and stuff like that.
Tom Rowland: You're doing it without talking down to the audience -- more like talking to them like a friend. But that possum video was interesting because you knew so much about it -- had you already studied possums, or did you find the possum and already knew the information?
Mike Loughran: Both. I knew I wanted to make that video for years, because nobody in my family hunted or fished -- not my dad, my brother, my grandpas, nobody. So me doing outdoor stuff was foreign, and all my buddies were hockey buddies who didn't know anything about the woods either. So I'd go out there, see something, and be baffled -- I'd never heard of it -- and go home and look it up. Years before the possum video, I saw a possum and thought, that's a weird animal, went home, looked it up, and digested the information. So I thought, next time I see one, I'm going to pick it up and talk about it -- and again, people didn't know all that information either.
Tom Rowland: If someone were to ask you why people watch you, what would you say?
Mike Loughran: I think because I don't come across as overly salesy -- I don't push too many products because it doesn't matter to me, I started with a GoPro taped to a stick. I think most grown people who like the outdoors can relate, because a lot of people in this day and age are working and stressed, but when they go in the woods they're relaxed, by a creek, and it brings out the inner child in everybody. For myself, whether social media existed or not, I'd be out doing this stuff. I think people see that I'm just a normal dude going fishing -- these are my adventures, if you like it, great, if you don't, scroll on. I'm just out here doing what I love to do.
Tom Rowland: Your account and videos have made me want to go fishing in your neck of the woods, which is a place I have probably the least fishing experience of anywhere in the country. It's really cool what you're catching in these creeks -- I didn't even know they existed. I think the state of New York ought to be paying you, because you're showing a whole different side. My own experience with New York was one competition around Lake Placid, on the Ausable River, trout fishing -- but what you're doing looks different. Is that the area you're fishing?
Mike Loughran: Not exactly the Ausable area -- that's more Adirondacks, a different region.
Tom Rowland: But these little creeks you fish, catching smallmouth and steelhead and salmon -- I grew up in Tennessee, and we have little creeks like that too, but the water's not clear like that and we don't have those kinds of fish, more sunfish and redeye bass. I see your videos and you're catching real fish in these little creeks -- and I guess that's going into the Great Lakes. Are those Great Lakes tributaries?
Mike Loughran: Yeah. Specifically in my Buffalo, New York region we've got the Finger Lakes -- Cayuga Lake is a huge tournament lake that pumps giant smallmouth every year. We've got the Niagara River, which connects Erie and Ontario, a whole other fishery with sturgeon, lake trout, salmon, steelhead, bass, you name it. But these smaller creeks are so awesome -- primarily off Erie and Lake Michigan. I jokingly say their lake-run smallmouth is where we've got steelhead too, though that's a whole other argument about whether it's really a steelhead, since there's no saltwater involved.
Tom Rowland: Why don't you explain that debate? We have a lot of saltwater fishermen listening who may not know steelhead. The debate is that a steelhead, by definition, goes into the ocean as a rainbow trout and returns to the river.
Mike Loughran: This one might ruffle some feathers, but I've actually never caught what I'd call a true steelhead -- that's West Coast, ocean-run. I've always caught lake-run steelhead, which in my opinion are just a lake-run rainbow. Those were imported into the Great Lakes, I believe in the 1800s or 1890s, taken from the West Coast and put in the Great Lakes. Genetically I believe they're identical, but it's tough to describe -- the ones that come out of the ocean seem to fight harder, they're bigger, and the meat looks different. We have king salmon here in Lake Ontario, and the ones you catch out of the ocean versus out of Lake Ontario look completely different -- the meat isn't the bright orange-red you're used to seeing in Alaska, it's more tan. A coho tastes a little better. But we have some really special water here -- call them lake-run rainbows or steelhead, they run into the same creeks the bass do, and there's a special time of year when the steelhead that came in are leaving for summer at the same time the smallmouth are coming in to spawn, and they overlap. You can go with a fly rod or light tackle, a little minnow jig or streamer, and catch a five-pound smallmouth the same day you catch a 30-inch steelhead. It's insane.
Tom Rowland: That's springtime?
Mike Loughran: That's springtime. And Lake Ontario is also better for brown trout than Lake Erie -- I'd put Lake Ontario's brown trout run as world class, multiple 30-plus-inch browns coming in every year, full of eggs, at their heaviest point of the year. Special place.
Tom Rowland: I was a guide out west in Idaho and Wyoming, and I don't hear people in my circles talk about that area as one of the best trout fisheries in the world, but hearing you, I don't doubt it. If a Florida or western fisherman wanted to experience that, what time of year and area should they target?
Mike Loughran: Pretty much target Lake Michigan, Lake Erie, and Lake Ontario -- those three get the best runs. I'm not sure about Lake Superior. It's fall, mid-October right around the peak salmon run, and once the salmon come in, the brown trout and steelhead follow, eating salmon eggs. That's why a lot of people fish egg patterns -- I've personally seen a 30-inch brown trout holding behind two mating salmon just eating the eggs coming off them.
Tom Rowland: That's what people do in Alaska, chasing rainbows behind spawning salmon with egg patterns, and people travel from all over the world for that -- but New York is a lot closer than Alaska.
Mike Loughran: Crowded, though. I've never been to Alaska, it's one of my dream trips, but there's a place in New York, the Salmon River in Pulaski, where I read the salmon run brings in something like $20 million in revenue in the fall. It's a zoo -- shoulder to shoulder. I only go once a year because of that. But what drew you to my videos is I'm often fishing places where it looks like nobody else is around.
Tom Rowland: Is that available to anyone, or do you have to really know what you're doing to find a spot with no one else around and fishing that good?
Mike Loughran: It's definitely harder -- the numbers aren't as high in some of those smaller creeks, but my personal style is I'd much rather walk three miles in a day, catch two fish and see ten, than be shoulder to shoulder.
Tom Rowland: What about private land and water access up there -- is a lot of it private, or is there a lot of public water?
Mike Loughran: New York's different -- there's a specific law on one river where a family that owns part of the Salmon River technically, in written law, owns the water and the ground beneath it, going back eighty or a hundred years. You can't even float and fish it without a permit from them, which is crazy. It's only that specific section, and the only river in New York like that -- supposedly the person who owned it was a politician who got that put through, though I don't know if that's true. New York also has a navigable waterway law -- if a landowner owns both sides and the water isn't labeled navigable, they can own that area, and while you might be able to float through, you can't anchor or fish it. If an owner owns both sides but the water is navigable, you can fish it, with the exception of that one river.
Tom Rowland: There's a similar water law patchwork out west in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana -- in one state the landowner owns the riverbed but not the water, so you can float through but can't touch bottom; in Montana you have a high-water law, so anything below the high-water line is accessible as long as you enter from public access; Idaho is a combination. It's surprising anyone can actually own the water itself. I see you fishing off a paddle board and mention a kayak -- how much of the fishing access up there requires a boat?
Mike Loughran: Creeks, you don't really need a boat -- I love smallmouth fishing in June with a kayak, paddle board, even a john boat, anything to get out there, as long as I can get the line wet. There's a lot of lake fishing too, but for creeks you just need your feet.
Tom Rowland: How long has it been since you've been going to Florida?
Mike Loughran: Last year was my first real year -- did the whole trip in a van and was blown away by the fishery down there. It was my first experience in the Keys, and I can't wait to get back in a couple weeks. My family's gone down every year for probably fifteen years, just for a week-long family vacation, and I'd fish off the shore -- I've caught sharks from shore, but that was years ago. I'd never really experienced bass fishing, the Keys, or some of the clear-water springs until last year.
Tom Rowland: What was your favorite part?
Mike Loughran: The Keys -- I love the Keys.
Tom Rowland: When did you go down, what time of year last year?
Mike Loughran: January and February. This year, similar plan -- last year in January I was in this beautiful place with beautiful flats and clear water, but it was blowing 35 miles an hour and I couldn't get out there. So this year I'm going to Florida next week and spending probably all of January in Central Florida fishing for largemouth bass -- I've never caught a ten-pound largemouth, so that's my goal. Then in February I'll go to the Keys once the weather evens out.
Tom Rowland: You should hook up with Rob Chapman while you're in Central Florida, our mutual friend -- he's on some big snook.
Mike Loughran: Oh yeah, I saw him.
Tom Rowland: There's a lot of good stuff down there, and I'd love to meet up with you in the Keys too. If you had something you were trying to catch down there, what would it be?
Mike Loughran: Tarpon -- I've never caught one.
Tom Rowland: Wow, never caught a tarpon. Well, this has been one of the warmest winters I can remember, so I'm sure some really cold weather is approaching, but you should have some great opportunities. There's also opportunities in Miami -- I can hook you up with a friend, David Cohen, who catches big tarpon year-round. The good thing about going with David is you don't have to say a word, he'll talk the whole day and you can just fish. He's awesome.
Tom Rowland: So are you not teaching anymore?
Mike Loughran: I am not. I made the decision last year to take a leave from teaching, and the lifestyle I lived last year was too good to not want to do again, so I resigned. Very tough decision -- I loved teaching, I loved my students, some of them still follow me, which is funny, you'll see a comment like, mister Loughran, you were the best teacher. Maybe I'll go back one day, but the way I looked at it, if I leave now and do this for five years, or make a career out of it -- worst case, I go back to teaching at 32 and retire a few years later, who cares? I'm gonna enjoy my youth. The teaching salary in New York starting out isn't great, and a couple of sponsorships for a couple good months of content creation can make up that salary. The freedom is the biggest thing -- I don't have to walk in somewhere every day, I can write an email or take a call on the water. For the next few years at least, I won't be teaching.
Tom Rowland: When I first started this podcast, those were the kinds of stories I was really trying to uncover -- people with a passion project on the side who reach a moment where they decide to make the leap. It's never been an easy decision for anyone I've interviewed. Tell me about yours -- financially, how did you decide you could do it? It sounded like you tested it first, took a leave before resigning.
Mike Loughran: It was tough, especially in New York -- full pension, work till you're 62, guaranteed 80 percent of your salary the rest of your life. But for me it really came down to freedom. I could retire one day and be very comfortable, but I don't know if I'll turn 65, or even 35 -- you never know. I only have one life, I love fishing, I love the freedom, and my degree isn't going anywhere -- if I ever want to go back to teaching, I can. I want to travel the world, fish, and help inspire other people to take that leap. There was one specific moment when I knew I needed to rip the band-aid off -- a different state paid me to go create content and promote travel there for four days, and that payment was double what I'd make in a month of teaching. I was sitting there thinking, I just made a month's pay in four days to go fishing -- I had to go all in. Ever since then I took the leave, last year was good, and I haven't looked back. I also realized if I could create what I had just working Saturday and Sunday, what could I do with the other five days of the week? That's held true -- it's been night and day.
Tom Rowland: So what have you been able to do with those other five days?
Mike Loughran: In the last year and a half on Instagram I doubled my following, which was insane -- it took the previous eight years to get to 200,000, and in the last year and a half I've gained another 250,000. The biggest benefit is that I used to fish crowded times, Saturday and Sunday, when everyone else is off -- now Monday through Friday there's really not many people fishing, so it's easier to create content, I have better fishing holes available, and it's not as hard to set up a tripod without people walking by. It's been night and day, and it would be tough to go back to the old schedule of fishing only on the weekend when everyone else is out there too -- we'd pull up to a spot and there'd be four boats already.
Tom Rowland: When you decided to rip the band-aid off, who did you tell first?
Mike Loughran: My parents -- it's like the family business, and I've been very fortunate, raised well, but it's tough to tell your father, who provided everything by working the same job you want to leave. That's a tough conversation, but they couldn't have been more supportive. There was maybe a little apprehension early on, like, make the right decision, you do have retirement, you do have health insurance -- but it's been worth it so far.
Tom Rowland: Has your dad looked at what you're doing and thought, if I could have gone fishing instead of going to work every day, maybe I would have done that?
Mike Loughran: Not exactly, but my dad loves golfing, so if he could make his teaching salary golfing, I'm sure he'd take that. But he also loved teaching -- and that's a tough thing. It was never really about money for me. My biggest difficulty leaving teaching was the kids -- I had some of them from kindergarten to fifth grade, saw them every day for five years, and they were awesome kids. That was the toughest part.
Tom Rowland: I look at your comments and they're mostly positive, but I'm sure that's not always the case. What's been the biggest challenge?
Mike Loughran: Comments early on would irritate me, but I took a hockey angle on it -- you'll be facing off with a guy on the ice and he's just going to chirp you, trying to get you irritated, and you can't let them. So it's the same thing -- someone's upset about something I posted, or doesn't like how I said something, and honestly I couldn't care less. I take it as feedback, like maybe next time I'll word it differently, but I'll never stop because of some random person on the internet. Never.
Tom Rowland: Where does your teaching and athletic background show up in your content creation?
Mike Loughran: Maybe the energy -- showing up to teach every day, the kids know if you're tired, so you have to bring energy every single day. With hockey I was never the most skilled guy on the team, but I was one of the most aggressive -- puck's in the corner, it's my puck, full speed ahead, grind your way out. That's kind of the mentality -- your first hundred posts might get 20 likes and under 500 views, too bad, grind, post more, chip away, and eventually something hits and you build off it. Sports are a tremendous teacher for life -- if you're not getting the results you want, work harder, go to the gym. Very simple stuff.
Tom Rowland: I have an athletic background too and lean on it -- I was a wrestler, and a lot of what you learn on the mat, you're out there by yourself, you either do the work or you don't, and if you didn't, you pay for it. Hockey's similar but a team sport. I've also leaned on the process of training for something like a marathon -- getting your body prepared. It's very similar to what you're describing, having to do the work to eventually do the race, or the content, or the project you want to do. Sports and the gym are excellent metaphors for life, and it sounds like you've really leaned on that. It's interesting that when you ask kids today what they want to be, a lot say a creator of some sort, versus when I was a kid it was a fireman or a pilot.
Tom Rowland: You've transitioned from a very safe full-time job to a creator, and you seem to be doing well, but I notice Instagram doesn't seem to pay much as a platform. What's your experience been?
Mike Loughran: When I was teaching, I'd ask kindergartners what they wanted to be when they grew up, and it was influencer, YouTuber -- mind blowing, compared to when we were kids and it was policeman or fireman. Fun fact -- ask a five-year-old to mimic picking up a phone, and they hold their hand flat like an iPhone, not like an old handset. That also helped me leave teaching -- I knew a lot of those kids wanted to be creators one day, and I didn't want them looking back in high school thinking, mister Loughran had that dream and never took the leap. In the last calendar year on Instagram I've had over 100 million views and gotten not a penny, zero cents from Instagram directly.
Tom Rowland: I'm glad to hear you say that, because I thought I was doing it wrong -- we have pages with really big view counts that get paid zero too.
Mike Loughran: It drives me crazy. Facebook and TikTok do pay me, but it's not reliable, so without different sponsorships and ways to make money it would be very difficult. I also help consult for some brands to grow their social presence, which is a nice bit of income, but brand partnerships are the biggest piece -- viewership money is so inconsistent. TikTok specifically requires a video to be over a minute long to monetize, so a ten-second video with ten million views gets you nothing. My average rate of return on TikTok is around a thousand dollars per million views on qualifying videos -- call it 900 -- but it's harder and harder in the age of scrolling to keep someone retained for over a minute. TikTok also bans my stuff sometimes even though I don't post anything graphic -- holding a snapping turtle and talking about it got flagged as violent and graphic before, so I'm cautious about what I post there. Facebook is better -- anything I post to Instagram also posts to Facebook, and I do get paid from views there, though it's nothing crazy.
Tom Rowland: So you don't really factor platform payouts into the business plan -- that's just bonus money?
Mike Loughran: Pretty much, though it is fairly reliable in the sense that I know roughly what I'll get if I post every day. But primarily it's brand partnerships. I tell young creators all the time, this is a small business you're running -- every brand partnership, every phone call with someone from that brand, is an interview. You need to take it seriously, provide what you said you would, and maintain the relationship, because it's a big industry that's actually very small, people talk, and reputation matters enormously. I tell people, it's a business you're starting, not an Instagram page.
Tom Rowland: It's definitely a very small world. The first time I went to ICAST I thought it was the biggest show I'd ever seen -- a couple years later I realized it's not that big, and even the Shot Show, which is much bigger, feels pretty small once you've walked it a few years. Everybody kind of knows everybody. I do feel like creators are getting their fair share of respect these days on other platforms, though for a while they weren't -- you'd go for a brand partnership and they'd say, Instagram? I don't even know what that is. How has that journey been for you?
Mike Loughran: It's better now. Back in the day, different platforms held different value. Now, thankfully, Instagram is actually my third-largest platform behind TikTok and Facebook, though they're all fairly close, but Instagram holds the most value with brands aside from YouTube -- if you have a giant YouTube you'll get brand partnerships regardless, but for short form, I find Instagram gets the most marketing budget. It's so important these days to build a personal brand and create high-quality content.
Tom Rowland: It's interesting you got started fishing later in life but seem like a good fisherman -- which have you struggled to learn more, fishing or the business of creating?
Mike Loughran: Good question. Fishing seems to come so naturally to me now, but ten years ago it didn't -- I never really watched YouTube tutorials, I just figured it out myself. I got into it as a fisherman, but I'm more of an outdoorsman where fishing is my vehicle to get out there -- I'll fish for eight or nine hours, but I'm also just hoping to see something cool, an animal. There was a stretch when I tried to really dial in the fishing and realized how bad I actually was, and had to learn and read about it. The business side has come a lot easier -- I'm pretty direct working with brands, I can write emails fairly well from having to get a master's degree and write all those papers, and half of business is just talking and relationships, so I've never struggled with that. But honestly, fishing was harder for me early on.
Tom Rowland: I can see why -- you're doing a lot of different types of fishing with different rods, bait caster, spinning rod, fly rod, and that's tricky, especially in little creeks like that.
Tom Rowland: I want to ask some fun questions -- rate these fish, either on virality or on which you prefer. Largemouth bass versus steelhead?
Mike Loughran: Steelhead, for virality.
Tom Rowland: Smallmouth versus largemouth?
Mike Loughran: Tough one -- I'd say a huge smallmouth goes more viral than a big largemouth.
Tom Rowland: Catfish versus sturgeon?
Mike Loughran: Sturgeon.
Tom Rowland: Barracuda versus musky?
Mike Loughran: Big musky gets more views.
Tom Rowland: Redfish versus snook?
Mike Loughran: Snook.
Tom Rowland: Cobia versus tuna?
Mike Loughran: Tuna, definitely -- our cobia videos don't do that well, I don't know why.
Tom Rowland: What would be the freshwater version of a shark -- any shark versus any freshwater fish?
Mike Loughran: I'll throw a curveball -- there's one fish that, every year I catch it, goes more viral than anything else I catch all year: a giant goldfish. People love seeing those big fat goldfish -- by reality, that one takes the cake. But big sharks, with a wave crashing over you on the beach and the mouth open, those always pop up on my explore page too.
Tom Rowland: Have you ever caught a queen snapper? It's a deep-dropping fish that looks like a giant goldfish, and they're incredibly good to eat.
Mike Loughran: I have not -- maybe we can get me out with somebody in the Keys to catch one.
Tom Rowland: So the goldfish is your most viral -- what's the least viral?
Mike Loughran: Carp -- a small little carp never really does too well for me.
Tom Rowland: What's the coolest, most viral thing you've ever filmed, and then realized the camera wasn't rolling?
Mike Loughran: Last spring, me and my buddy were bass fishing, walking a pond, and I spotted a huge snapping turtle in the shallow water about 30 yards away. I ran up to it, and he pulled out his iPhone and started recording -- but I had a walking stick, a backpack, and a coffee in my hand. Before he hit record, I threw the walking stick, threw the backpack, and dumped about half a cup of coffee over my shoulder, picked up the huge turtle, and showed it to the camera. He's on the bank filming, I bring it close, put the turtle away, and he pans back and goes, dude, the coffee landed straight up in the grass. After the video I didn't post that part -- I just took a sip and talked about it. But if that had been recorded, I know for a fact it would have gone viral.
Tom Rowland: One more game -- a bracket of fishing conditions. Lunar table or tides?
Mike Loughran: Tides.
Tom Rowland: Tides or clouds in the sky?
Mike Loughran: Tides.
Tom Rowland: Tides or water temperature?
Mike Loughran: Tides.
Tom Rowland: Tides or barometric pressure?
Mike Loughran: Tides.
Tom Rowland: Tides or water clarity?
Mike Loughran: Water clarity.
Tom Rowland: Water clarity or time of year?
Mike Loughran: Time of year.
Tom Rowland: Time of year or pressure on the stream or body of water?
Mike Loughran: Time of year.
Tom Rowland: So time of year wins -- but honestly, there's no absolute right answer to any of this. Some people can go out and catch fish in dirty water, and others are lost if the water's dirty at all. I remember fishing a professional redfish tournament out of Kemah, Texas, where the wind was blowing 35 and the water looked like the color of a cardboard box -- you could see into it about a millimeter. If you dropped a black bait in, it disappeared before the jig head even went under. I figured there was no way anyone would catch anything, but the local guys who fish those conditions all the time knew how to run across the bay to clearer water, or even drove to Louisiana, which is what we ended up doing. Some people are just good at fishing certain conditions because they encounter them all the time -- and what are you going to do, stay home, or go fishing?
Tom Rowland: Tell me about this year -- your first full year not teaching, and you're heading to Florida next week. What does the rest of your year look like?
Mike Loughran: A couple big plans. I just got back from Thailand, which was super cool, a whole different experience. Florida this year is different because I know what I want to do now -- last year was a lot of trial and error, but I know exactly where I'm going and how to fish it better. I think my answers about tides earlier were because I'm still fairly inexperienced with them, and my fear of getting stuck out on some island because the tides were wrong was high last year -- I have a much better understanding now. I'm hopeful to do a couple more trips in spring and summer -- Alaska would be amazing, and I'm working on figuring that out with a lodge. Very tentatively I might go to Bolivia to fish for golden dorado, which should be an incredible trip. I want to target more travel lodges -- Iceland, Switzerland, up in Canada, South America, wherever -- and really broaden my travel fishing experience over the next two years.
Tom Rowland: What took you to Thailand?
Mike Loughran: A lodge out there with all these exotic fish. Me and a cameraman friend, Dan, who's from Florida, just said, let's do it. It was a great opportunity, we caught amazing fish, and we had a 24-hour layover in South Korea, a whole other experience. It's all stuff that's so far out of my old safe teaching-job realm -- the last two years have been night and day different than if I'd stayed.
Tom Rowland: What kind of fish did you catch in Thailand?
Mike Loughran: All kinds -- arapaima, red-tailed catfish, a Mekong catfish, stingrays. There was also a giant goonch in the lake, the one Jeremy Wade caught -- we didn't catch one of those, but that was the one I really wanted. We saw monkeys, went to a floating island and met some locals, and I have a video coming out about a floating sport court that was literally on the ocean, with two soccer nets -- I tried to find local kids to play soccer with, and even though we didn't speak the same language, sport is one of the few things where you can still play the same game together. The kids were in session at their floating school, though, so we didn't end up playing, but it was a fun time.
Tom Rowland: What did that floating court feel like -- mushy?
Mike Loughran: It was hard, pretty firm, but wobbly -- you're on water.
Tom Rowland: Are the arapaima native over there?
Mike Loughran: No, this was a stocked private lake. That's my next thing -- I want to go to South America to catch a real wild one, full of fight, with a little bit of danger being in the jungle.
Tom Rowland: They have those in Florida now too, and I hope they don't get out into the Everglades. That arapaima is a wild-looking fish -- I've seen one in an aquarium, and it sometimes sits up high in the water like a laid-up tarpon, with a face almost like a barramundi or a snook, like it eats upward off the surface. They get really big, seven feet, 300 pounds. I'd like to catch one myself.
Mike Loughran: Oh, yeah, that sounds amazing.
Tom Rowland: My son was in Thailand too and saw ponds stocked with them -- is that a common thing over there, or just one place?
Mike Loughran: There's two spots there, pretty big bodies of water -- we'd see them blowing bait up on the surface. My rationale for going there first was that it's a great opportunity to catch these big fish in a controlled environment before I try South America, so I know what I'm getting into -- I don't want to catch one for the first time in the middle of the jungle and have it jump out of the water and hit me in the head. Their heads are like a brick of concrete -- if it hits you, you're out cold. I'd love to do that South America trip soon.
Tom Rowland: Tarpon can knock you out the same way, so be careful when you catch your first one here, probably in a couple weeks -- I think you're going to catch one. Do you know how long you're spending in the Keys?
Mike Loughran: Ideally a month. I don't have a place to stay yet -- I have one family friend down there, so it depends on whether I stay with them or end up sleeping in my car. Definitely planning on being there, just not sure exactly how long.
Tom Rowland: Let everybody know the platforms you're on and how they can find you.
Mike Loughran: The handle is Fish Like Mike on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. I've also just started posting long-form content on YouTube -- the Thailand trip and some bass fishing videos are up there. But primarily, if you need to reach me, it's Instagram.
Tom Rowland: Alright, man, I'm gonna keep watching your videos -- you're doing a great job, and congratulations on the change in your career, that's a really big deal.
Mike Loughran: I appreciate it. Yeah, man.
Tom Rowland: Good job. Alright -- that's Fish Like Mike. If you're not following him already, you should definitely go check him out. He's got some really cool stuff, and maybe we'll see you down in the Keys.
Mike Loughran: Hopefully do -- see you soon.
Tom Rowland: Alright, man. Thanks.
Mike Loughran: Thanks. See you.
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