Episode 1000 of the Tom Rowland Podcast is Tom's personal curation of his favorite moments from the show's entire run — conversations with professional anglers, UFC fighters, entrepreneurs, military veterans, authors and business leaders. Instead of a single guest, Tom becomes the curator of his own archive, pulling out the common threads of resilience, mindset and dedication that keep showing up no matter the discipline.
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Episode 1000 is Tom Rowland's personal curation of his favorite moments from across all previous episodes. Tom reflects on guests from fishing, fitness, entrepreneurship, the military, and entertainment, highlighting common themes of resilience, mindset, and dedication.
The Tom Rowland Podcast reached 1,000 episodes with this milestone celebration. Tom marks the achievement by personally curating his favorite moments from across the entire run of the show.
Tom Rowland has featured professional anglers, UFC fighters, entrepreneurs, military veterans, authors, and business leaders — people from diverse backgrounds who share insights on excellence, mindset, and the principles that drive success in their fields.
The common threads that emerge are resilience, mindset, and dedication. Tom has found that principles driving excellence in one field, like professional fighting or military service, often transfer directly to fishing or entrepreneurship.
Tom Rowland is the host and creator of the Tom Rowland Podcast, which reached 1,000 episodes featuring guests from professional fishing, UFC fighting, military service, business, and entertainment.
Reaching episode 1000 feels surreal. When I started this podcast I had no idea where it would lead or how many people I'd get to learn from. Every single conversation, whether with a professional angler, a UFC fighter, an entrepreneur, or a military veteran, has taught me something I've been able to apply to my own life, and this episode is my way of pulling those threads together.
Instead of introducing a single guest, I became the curator of my own archive for this one — pulling moments from YouTubers who turned a hobby into a profession, shop owners who built businesses from passion, veterans who shared their service, and fighters who revealed their training mindsets. This journey has taught me as much as it's taught anyone listening.
Put a professional angler, a UFC fighter, an entrepreneur and a military veteran on the same podcast feed and something interesting shows up: the principles that drive excellence in one field transfer directly to another. The mindset for a championship fight shares DNA with the preparation for a week-long expedition in the Seychelles. That's the thread I wanted this episode to pull on.
Without listeners, there's no episode 1000. This community engages, shares, applies what they learn, and reports back, and that feedback loop has shaped which topics I explore and which guests I invite back. Every guest who gave their time did it in part because of the audience that would receive it.
What's been most meaningful is hearing from you about how these conversations have impacted your lives — whether you're applying mindset lessons from a fighter to your fishing, or business principles from an entrepreneur to your career. I've learned that excellence in any field comes down to the same core things: showing up consistently, learning from failures, staying dedicated to the process.
This one's a celebration of everything we've built together, and I think you'll enjoy revisiting these moments as much as I did. Thank you for being part of it.
Tom Rowland
Tom Rowland is the host and creator of the Tom Rowland Podcast, which reached 1,000 episodes featuring guests from the worlds of fishing, fitness, entrepreneurship, the military and entertainment. Over the course of the show's run, Tom has explored common themes of resilience, mindset and dedication, learning from professional anglers, UFC fighters, authors, business leaders and military veterans alongside the community of listeners who have supported the show.
Tom Rowland Podcast — Episode 1000: The Best of the Tom Rowland Podcast
In this episode: Bill Dance on getting the word can't "out of your vocabulary," Michael Chandler on "the walk on mentality," Monte Burke on reporting the Steve Huff story, Michael Waddell on going for it in the outdoor space, and Chris Fischer on OCEARCH's "2,000,000 active users a month" — in the exact words spoken.
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Tom Rowland: What's up, everybody? And welcome to the one thousandth episode of the Tom Rowland podcast. I wanna thank you because because of you, I've been able to learn so much from so many different guests. And today, we're gonna have a sample of some of my favorite episodes and some of my favorite moments from those episodes. And this has been quite a journey for me as well as for you if you're a listener from the beginning. We've learned so many things from so many people from different backgrounds, whether they wanted to make their hobby, their profession, and become a professional YouTuber or open a shop or go to the military or become a UFC fighter. We've learned from all of these different people, and there's some common threads that I have been able to apply to my life, and I hope that you have too. So join me for the one thousandth episode right now where we're gonna revisit some of my favorite moments and favorite guests from all of this time. Alright. Here we go.
Bill Dance: I said, this this ain't gonna work. This I I can't do this. Diane said, what did I tell you about can't? And I said, what? She said, what'd I tell you about the word can't? And I said, she said, I've told you that word, get it out of your vocabulary. And she's always said, and I said, well, three doesn't want it. Five doesn't want it. And she said, isn't ABC sports minded? I said, yeah. I think. She said, you're always talking about sports entertainment on ABC. Why don't you go to ABC? I said, they probably don't. What'd I say? I said, she's not five feet tall, but she's, I mean, dynamite comes in small packages.
Tom Rowland: She's heard
Bill Dance: that expression. I said, I'll go save in the morning. And she said, what about this afternoon? I will, I'll let me go in the morning.
Bill Dance: So I went over there and I got over there about eleven. I remember it was a little bit after eleven and the switchboard operator never forget her. Her name was Elizabeth and I saw it on her little name that I walked up and I said, Elizabeth. She said, yes, that's me. I said, who is your program director? She said, Lance Russell. And I said, is he in? She said, no, he went to lunch, but he'll be back by two if you'd like to come back. And I said, no, ma'am, I'll just wait. And she said, well, it's just a little bit after eleven. That's that'll be a pretty good I said, that's fine. I'll wait. But I wanna be here when he comes back. She says, well, okay. So I just went over and sat down.
Tom Rowland: Uh-huh.
Bill Dance: And a little bit later, she said, would you like something to drink? And, I said, no, ma'am. I'm fine. So she's, well, I'm gonna get me a Coca Cola. If you want one, I'll get you one. I said, no, ma'am. She's, well, I'm getting you one. So she and I became good buddies. So she went and got one, got me one. And she said, what do you do? I said, well, I told her. And then she told me she liked to fish. And we kept struck up a conversation. And, about ten minutes of one, she walked over and she said, guess what? Mr. Russell came up the back power escape back steps. He's here. And, he's ready to see you. I said, well, great. And she said, just go right on the steps. I'll never forget that green carpet. I'll bounce up those steps. And I went down the hall and there was a lady standing there and she said, there's his office. And I walked in and he stood up and his hands, he paid his hands like that. He walked around the end of his desk and he shook his hand out and he said, Bill Dance. And I said, Mr. Russell, he said, call me Lance, have a seat bill. And he said, better that he took his chair and he pulled his chair up, put my chair up close to his desk. He said, sit down. What can I help you with? And I said, I wanna do a local fishing show and I wanna do it here on channel thirteen. And he said, you may not remember this. You know, WBBJ. And I said in Jackson, Tennessee, channel seven. He said, that's right. I said, I've done a few shows there with Tony Laws. He said, yeah. Tony Laws did a local show there. He said, well, I used to do a local show there. And I said, you did? And he said, yeah, I was program director. Therefore I came here. And I said, really? He said, yeah. He said, tell me what you got in mind. And I said, I'd like to do a local show. And I explained how I wanted to do it. I had it formatted. And he says, okay. He said, I like the idea. When would you like the air? And I said, Friday nights, Thursday night or Friday night for the weekend. Yeah. He said, well, let me tell you what we need. We need two things. We need a pilot. I said, I don't even have a plane. He said, we said apple. He said, you got a lot to learn. And then he started laughing. He said, a pilot, we need a show. And I said, okay. And I said, I can get that. And he said, well, we need a sponsor. And here it is, just a little bit after 01:00. And I said, okay, to sponsor the event. I said, alrighty. I said, I can get the show and let me see about the sponsor. He said, you work on that and I'll see what I can do. And I said, thank you. And he said, let's talk later in the week. And I said, fine. And he said, if you come up with something, you let me know immediately, and I will. I shook his hand.
Bill Dance: I went out the door, got in my truck, and I went straight down to 2526 Elvis Presley Boulevard. And I walked in a building called Fabulous Surplus City. And I walked up to a guy named Billy Woods. I said, Billy, I got a chance to put a local fishing show on channel thirteen to air Thursday night or Friday night. And I'm telling you, I can sell you lots and lots of fishing tackle. I promise you. He said, I know you can. And I said, would you be interested would you entertain the thought of sponsoring that? He said, absolutely. I said, what are you doing in the next hour? He said, nothing. I said, will you ride with me out to channel thirteen and talk to Lance Russell? He said, I sure will. I said, come on. He got in my truck, and we drove out there, and I walked up to Elizabeth. And I said, is mister Russell still here? She said he is. I said, would you ask him, can he see me? She said, yes. She she said he said, come on up. I went up, walked in, and I said, Lance, this is Billy Woods. He's a manager of Surplus City. He said, I go in there all the time. I said, he's interested in sponsoring the show. He said, boy, you work fast. He said, let's talk.
Bill Dance: And we did a pilot. We did a, a rough, that that night. Where did you get the camera people? Well, I had I had I had a camera. Yeah. Cotton gave me the camera. And he said, now we need a pilot. Mhmm. I call I apologize. I was so stupid. Of all people, I called Ralph Gieso. He was a guide out of Pendleton Harbor Marina on Toledo Bend. You know, we've had a lot of mess weather and everything. I I knew I could get a show at Toledo Bend. Now why didn't shoot a local show? I don't know. But Lance didn't care. I called Ralph, and I hooked it to Toledo Bend. And, I'll never forget it. I said, Ralph, will you help me get a show? He said, absolutely. We got I got the girl, the cook. It's where I met Terry Bridge. Oh, I'll tell you this over in a minute. But, anyway, I gave the cook the camera, and I said, yeah. All you do is just hold the camera. And, you know, those scoopy cameras are just neat. Yeah. A baby could shoot one of them. She held a camera, and I said, get us pulling away from the dock. She said, okay. So Ralph and I walked out and got in the boat, and we just pulled out. And she just and then we turned around, went back, got the camera. And we got out there on the light and one of his guides followed us out. And I said, you hold a camera and get some wide shots of us. So here's the guide, definitely hold a camera in his life. He shot some wide shots of us. And I said, get a couple of shots of us catching fit. Ralph knew where we were fishing the lake, and we threw out there and caught a couple of fish. I said, you get those? And he said, I got them. He gave us a camera. Ralph would shoot me catching fish, and I'd shoot Ralph catching fish. And I'll never forget that show. We were on some big fish, good fish. I get this fish about five pounds up side of the boat and I'm fighting him. And I said, Ralph, he said, let me net him. And so I'm fighting him and Ralph grabs a net and he went, I got him. And he he's got this fish about six pounds in the net, and he said, well, that's a good one. And, the the guide is is videoing it. Mhmm. And and I when I said get him now, I'm a bring him around the boat. And he's got this fish up six pounds, and I said, what? I said, get my fish. And he went, that's the wrong fish. He turned and netted, and he's got a six in my five in the net. And and the guy went, I got it. I got it. It comes to me when we're shooting audio then. You know? And then I came back, and old Shelton, as a guy, taught me how to cut and edit. Mhmm. And, I worked, and that's what I'd do. I'd go shoot a show, and then I'd bring it back, and I'd edit it. And then I'd I'd sketch out my show, my format. Mhmm. And then I'd come in the studio, and, it was so corny. I we had a a backdrop like this with two big recliners.
Tom Rowland: Uh-huh.
Bill Dance: And I'd say, well, here we are at the lake, and now we're getting in the boat. Here we go up the lake.
Tom Rowland: But that's how it was done. I mean, that's how Jerry McInnis' show was done too. I mean, that you had no other,
Bill Dance: it's so corny, you know, and it it I'd have a guest and maybe if you and I did a show together and I can say, here's Tom making the first cast and you'd say, oh, yeah. Oh, I'm getting a bite bill. And I said, yep. Nope. There's Tom sitting the hook. Oh, in that fun.
Michael Chandler: I think I think it comes from a deep conviction that there's so many young kids out there around the entire world that felt exactly like I did, and even and even more so feel even more insignificant than I felt and smaller than I felt that I just want I want them to see that if if Michael Chandler, the small guy from a small town who was taught to do small things can do things that where I'm at right now, then I've gotta spread that message.
Tom Rowland: I've gotta make these people believe themselves. Nice. So you're wearing the walk on shirt, walk on hat. So what does that mean to you, walk on?
Michael Chandler: You know, I think, you know, for me, it's, like I said, it's it's the the single cornerstone that I've built my my entire life around, making that decision to walk on to the University of Missouri. I think it's you you I had to do more than what was expected of me. I had to do more than what was asked of me. I had to answer the phone calls to the upperclassmen. I think of Tyron Woodley who ended up know, we all know he'd be end up becoming the UFC champion, Ben Askren who ended up becoming, you know, fighting in the UFC multiple time world champion. These guys were like my big brothers. But it was I was the guy that they would call at, you know, whatever time I would, you know, I'd as long as I didn't have to skip class or if it was a class that I knew I could or could not skip, I would be there. I would be in the gym. I would be in the practice room sometimes three, four, five times a day if I had to to not only was I trying to get better physically, but I was trying to prove, hey, I'm here. I I am a pawn in this system and I'm gonna be used as much as I possibly could. I would have been completely okay getting to the end of my my college career and look at myself in the mirror and say, okay, maybe I wasn't a national champion, maybe I wasn't an all American, but there was not one day that I did not push myself to the limit and make myself of service to this this program.
Tom Rowland: Like Rudy.
Michael Chandler: Yeah. I mean, kinda.
Tom Rowland: But then but but you made it. I mean, you became the all American. You Yeah. Did it, but it's that work ethic of, like that's why people love that movie, Rudy. Yes. Because that's what he did. Like, he he didn't I mean, every by all by all measure, he didn't deserve to be there Mhmm. Until he did the work and did the work and did the work to be there. And it's awesome.
Michael Chandler: Yeah. And and I think that's something that's getting glossed over in in today's society as well is that we've seen so many people gain so much success so quickly that our our standard of what hard work is and what it takes to become successful has been continued to be diminished, continued to be watered down, continued to be seem like it's so much more easily attainable than it than it should be. And I just I've just always I'm a son of a carpenter and a son of a secretary. Like I said, small town, High Ridge, Missouri. And when I walked onto that team, I said, I don't I don't care if I reach my goals or not. I'm gonna put myself out there, and I'm gonna show up first. I'm gonna leave late. I'm gonna be of service, and I'm gonna do more than what is required. I mean, I think that's the walk on mentality. I think even even to this day, people would say, well, you got this and you got this following. You got these zeros in your bank account or you got this, you know, you got the wife and you got the kids in the house.
Michael Chandler: But to me, I'm still waking up every single day, and the rent is due every single day. You know, as as you've heard a thousand times, it's success is never owned. It's rented, and that rent is due every single day. And that's just the mentality that I had, and it's it's a walk on mentality and mixed martial arts be called a a, white belt mentality Mhmm. Where even if you're a world champion, you still got the open mind and the open heart to serve and be they'll still be the white belt like you were the first day you walked into the gym with the starry starry eyes and a bright future.
Tom Rowland: You can learn from everybody. Yeah. So it's one thing to be in that situation and to do the work every single day. And in my opinion, it's almost there's a place where it's almost easier to find yourself there and just start churning out that work than it is to be the kid that has the opportunity to go to the the the smaller school Mhmm. Or whatever and then choose. And that's exactly what it is. It's a choice of I'm taking this harder choice. Yeah. May not be successful. May not, you know I'm probably gonna get laughed at. They're not I'm not gonna be welcome. I'm gonna take this harder choice.
Tom Rowland: Tell me about that. Like, that's that's really where I see your career really starting is at that choice of of making that walk on choice.
Michael Chandler: Yeah. And and I really wish I do not do a good job of remembering things. You know, like when I always say when I when I write a book, like, I'm going to make it'll be my brother Eric, who seems to to remember everything about our childhood and about us coming up together and all that. And, you know, my wife over the last ten years because I just don't I don't remember these things because I think I am so in the moment. I'm in the moment today. So I may not remember that much about today. And it's not because I fight and get hit in the head for a living. It's literally I just I think I'm in the moment, and I can't remember when I was that 17, 18 year old kid why I made that decision. Why being a being a small guy from a small town, you can find yourself in the herd, in the middle of the herd where everybody's doing something, and this is kinda what we do. We're from High Ridge, Missouri. You're either gonna get a job at Emo's Pizza, or you're gonna be flipping tires over at at Dobbs Tires. And or you may be working on Chris Boniger's farm. He had all this farmland and all these cows, and there was all these different things that, you know, we I fell into that herd mentality, and I was just I kinda wanted I always wanted to be a little bit vanilla because I never wanted to stand out. Mhmm. I never wanted to make people feel insecure about my confidence in myself. So I constantly diminished myself. So I have no idea why at that point in time because you gotta remember too, we're we're talking about scholarships. We're talking about I'm a middle class family. My mom my mom and dad worked two and two and three jobs to make sure my my my son or their sons, my two brothers, and myself had every single thing that we possibly needed. We had everything when you had a roof overhead. We had food. We weren't poor by any means, but we were not well-to-do at all. So I was making a decision that said, you know, mom, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna take on a little bit of student loan debt here instead of I can go take this zero, you know, zero emission fees to a different school. And luckily, my parents were on board with it because I had this feeling in my heart that if I'm gonna wrestle, I'm gonna try to wrestle at the highest level. And even if I'm a bench warmer, even if I, become a training partner for five years, even if I quit, and I have to go back to Harris, Missouri with my hat in my hand and everybody's got their finger pointed at me and said, I told you so. That's where you wanna be. You wanna be in those moments. And I've and now even as a as a guy who's now had 30 fights, this you alluded to the Tony Ferguson fight. This is my thirtieth fight. That's a lot of professional fights. And, you know, obviously, I'm I'm a veteran now of the sport. But even now, I talk about this idea that even though you've sat in front of a TV or I've sat in front of a TV and we've watched somebody lose, we've watched them dare greatly and fail and fall flat on their face. You have that feeling that, gosh, that's embarrassing for that person or, oh, I'm glad I'm not in that person's shoes. I truly believe that the human spirit gets unlocked a little bit in those moments where we can say, yes. I do feel sorry for him, but I'm kind of envious that that man or that woman put themselves out there like that. And I've and I've done that so many times now, and it's embarrassing when you lose in front of millions of people. And it was embarrassing when when I wasn't an all American up until finally my senior year, and I would go back between school years and, yeah, still on the wrestling team. And I I made the team this year, but, you know, I went, you know, twenty and sixteen. I didn't exactly have a great record. You know?
Tom Rowland: How do you get first of all, you have to be a fisherman, like, from way back to understand this world well enough to to even navigate it and and and find these stories and then meet these people. How did that happen for you?
Monte Burke: So it was it was actually really interesting. I did a, Gordon Gunn assigned me a story on Steve Huff about a decade ago. And I knew who Steve Huff was, but I didn't really know the totality of Steve Huff. And I went down there, and we spent, two days on the water and hit it off. And it was just turned out to be a fantastically really fun story to do kind of from beginning to end, from the reporting to the writing. And, actually, they titled the piece the world's greatest, fishing guide, I think, which is, you know, I fully agree with. Like, just an incredible person, incredible guide. And so, I Steve Huff had a static number of clients every year. He had 11 or 12 people, and that was it. I mean, he would turn, George, h w Bush, asked him if he could take him fishing, and he said no because he had another guy booked. And so by some sort of miracle, I forgot who the client was. One guy dropped out, and another guy said, hey, you should take that guy that guy, Monty. He really, you know, he's really into tarpon fishing and all kinds of stuff. So Steve was like, sure. So from that point on, we started fishing every year together, And, you know, we would sit we would fish all day, then we'd come home and and eat dinner. And he would oftentimes kind of start to tell stories about Homo Sassa, which I just loved. And, I mean, the name to me is very poetic and kind of magical. And the stories he told, you know, about Tom Evans, about Billy Pate, about Stu Apt, about Ted Williams, you know, about riding in the car with Ted Williams to go to a fish shack, you know, and, like, almost running into another car. I mean, these stories just sort of started to populate my head a little bit. And then a couple years after that, I was lucky enough, Guard and Gun again sent me down to do a story and the keys with Andy Mill. And, I had a great time hanging out with Andy and his son, Mickey, and kinda teaching, you know, talking about his career and all that kind of stuff too. And so we kinda hit it off, and I think it was two years ago or maybe three years ago now when Andy called and said, hey, man. These guys aren't getting any younger. We're in home of SASSA. You know, he knows Andy knows Tom Evans very well. He was like, you know, I got the guy who can, you know, maybe be your main character and kind of bring you through the whole book. You've gotta do the story. You gotta promise me you'll do the story and you'll do this book. And so, you know, at the time, I was sort of like, well, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe I might do another football coach book or whatever. But then I started thinking about it thinking about it and talking to Steve again, and it's just a story that I couldn't I couldn't not tell. I I'd be depressed if I hadn't taken the time to to go through it. And then it was just a matter of finding, you know, it was fun. I mean, it was like going to see Chico Fernandez and sitting down and having three hours with Chico talking about fishing to go hang out with Stu Apt. You know, it it was just really a magical thing. And then, actually, to go to Homosassos, a place that I'd read about a lot and heard a lot about and spend a lot of time there, I mean, I spent probably the equivalent of a month or over two seasons, and just kinda see the scene and see how beautiful that flat is and how difficult it is, how deep it is, all those big black rocks in there, and then occasionally see one of those big fish. I mean, they're not really around like they were, obviously, back then, but every once in a while, you see what's you see something swim by and you're like, holy crap. I mean, it like, literally, your knees start to buckle a little bit. So and then to do all that and then to go, you know, hang out with the new guys, with the new people on the scene, with the David Mangums and then Daniel Lindvills and, you know, it was just so fun. And then to realize, you know, as you this is one of the cool things about reporting and and writing that, people might not understand is that you go in sort of with an idea, and then and then the reporting takes you on the journey. Yeah. Journey. Yeah. And this this reporting happened to to tie everything together. I mean, this is a great Chekhov quote, and I'm I'm gonna murder it, but it's, it's in the book. But you basically if you shake one end of the story, the other end shakes.
Tom Rowland: You know
Monte Burke: what I mean? Because, like, there literally is this continuum from, you know, the earliest tarpon fishermen all the way to to today, and it was just I don't know. It was just really cool. I never really knew that it was all connected like that, all interconnected like that. It was just so awesome.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. So the way that you that you told the story, you it required you to get a tremendous amount of history, like, going all the way back to the first bonefish caught on fly and who who might have had something to do with that. And then, you know, like, Jimmy Albright and then the sisters that were that were the the guiding. I mean, I I found that really interesting that guiding started out kind of, it seemed seemed like it was female dominated at one point. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, Jimmy Albright marries one of the girls, and then then it kind of takes a takes a turn, I guess. But, some of this history like, I had heard a lot of these things, I mean, throughout the whole book. So many of the stories that you told, I had heard parts and pieces of those, either on the skiff or, like, anglers talking about it, kinda like you're talking about. Like
Monte Burke: Mhmm.
Tom Rowland: And but then your book put it all together in a certain way that I had never I mean, really well. Like, you put the whole puzzle together. And before, there were all these missing pieces and everything, and it was just such a great history just of the sport of fly fishing, not necessarily of the sport of fly fishing for world records. But it was just super cool the way it did. So when you decide this is gonna be a book that you're gonna write and you have plenty of other opportunities, like, you could do another football coach book.
Monte Burke: Mhmm.
Tom Rowland: What kind of commitment is that? Like, do you think, okay. Well, this is gonna take a year or two, or, like, what what kind of commitment do you make when you're gonna tell this story?
Monte Burke: So usually, I, I like to have about between fourteen and eighteen months to do a book so that I try to split it into, like, half of that time I'll spend reporting. And then I like to come home to my office, and, you know, that's when I grow the beard. You know, that's that's when I stop, you know, some of the personal hygiene stuff, and you just dive completely into it. And both sides are really fun. It's really interesting to me. You know, the the reporting part is very extroverted. Right? You have to you have to talk to people, and you wanna get their stories. So you've gotta be kind of welcoming, and you gotta be able to ask the right questions that you hope in any way. And and then the writing part is, like, the most inter I mean, I'm literally, like, Ted Kaczynski, you know, without the without the horrible stuff. Like, I you know, I have, like my my kids are always, like, dad, are you okay? Like, I'm just, like because then everything, you know, this happens when you're reporting and you're writing. But every literally, everything you see relates somehow. Like, I'll be walking through the park and see a tree, and I'll be, like, that reminds me of something. I mean, in the book. Right? Everything you read, you're, like, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I could throw maybe that idea resonates somewhere. But it's a it's just a super fun process. So I try to do you know, I try to get at least fourteen months with these things if I can. I think this one, if I remember from start to finish, was about was about sixteen months. Yeah. But it was super fun. And and, you know, all of that you know, the reporting part is so fun too because it's a little bit like a it's a a a squirrel looking for nuts. You know what I mean? It's like this treasure hunt. Right? I mean, it's like, can I find Stu App? And when I find him, is he, like, available this week for an interview? And lo and behold, sometimes they are, sometimes they're not, obviously.
Michael Waddell: I'll tell you something else I learned too about the outdoor space and doing what I've done. You know, like I said, I didn't go to college. And I remember my dad was one of the only people that was 100% far when I was 17, 18. Like, alright, you ain't going to school. You know, well, if you're gonna be helping out Bill Jordan Guyden, well, ride that out and get after it. That's a pretty cool opportunity. But my dad was a very big avid outdoors man. He loved Realtree and Dimas yoke, and he was a fan of a lot of these companies I was having a chance to work with early on. But overall, I would say my family, which is all countries of chicken coop, they was discouraging of it. They were like, well, Michael, you can't make a living huntin'. This is ridiculous. You done gone crazy. Man, you need you know, I had went to heating and air school, so I had gotten a degree in air conditioning technology, and I had just gotten a job as well just out of high school, being a serviceman, like a serviceman for heating and air and stalling air conditioners. A lot of people don't realize that. Well, my grandmom and my uncle were devastated. Like, you got a van. You got a suit with your name on it. I know, but I don't I'm not fulfilled. I'm I'm completely fine. I'll do this the rest of my life, but I'm also 17, 18, 19 years of age. I think I should try this. I'm sitting here trying to talk adults who love me into pushing them to realize that I think I should try this opportunity. No different than the kid who wants to go to Nashville to be a singer. Right. Or the or the kid like you that that went from Chattanooga said, I think I'm gonna start guiding fish out west. I you know, you ain't fish those rivers out west outside of just Rob. Yeah. Never. But like, now I'm a go ahead and start guiding. Right. Right. Okay. And so I was kind of in the same boat. And so I realize now that I look back and it saddens me, and that's one reason I'm glad we're talking about this stuff. If there's a man or woman listening or watching this podcast and you've always wanted to do something, go for it. But go for it with everything in you and have the confidence that you can be great in it. Because the reason I say that, I started realizing that a lot of my friends, and even my family, they are just living this slow, conservative, safe route to death. And that's pretty bold of me to say that, but it it it they're not taking any chances. And I have learned that you do fail a lot, But if you keep getting back up and swinging, you succeed. And so with this, in America, there's so many ways. I mean, there's gotta be a Jay Z. There's gotta be a Beyonce. There's gotta be a Tom Rowland. There's got to be a Michael Jordan. There's got to be a Chuck Adams. There's got to be a Dale Earnhardt. Who in some of these areas that we have a chance to play in could think that they would be a livelihood? I'm not saying that's easy. But it's not wrong for Americans or anybody or human beings to go after being into this 10% or 20%. And I think what happens is most of the people who love us the most, I catch myself as a parent now doing it, we try to push into this safe zone of this 90% of making a livelihood, you know, working at a high rise or being in the agency rather than to push to own the agency. And so in a deep way, I think that's the problem with America. Now we're getting to the point where people don't even want to work. They just want to stay at home and just get something given to them. And so, I think the American dream is still alive, but it's only alive if you dream and you have the balls. I know that I I guess I can say it on this podcast to just go get after it
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Michael Waddell: To go get after it. And if you fail, you can still jump back into that 80 percentile.
Tom Rowland: Well, you can.
Michael Waddell: You can.
Tom Rowland: But you're crazy to think that you're gonna do anything, whether you're living the most conservative, slow walk to death like you like you said. I might have said it a little differently, but whether you're doing that or whether you're trying to be a, the next big country music star or the next Michael Waddell, whatever it is, you're gonna fail. You're gonna fail conservatively or you're gonna fail swinging for the fence. It's how you act how you react to that failure. And whether you learn from those mistakes and move on or whether you Yes. Fail and go, man, well, that wasn't for me anyway, and go back. Like, that's the difference, and, like, we talk about these things on this podcast all the time because I'm so fascinated with with these moments in people's career, whether that's, like like I said, Bill Dance or Roland Martin or Jimmy Houston. All of them have had this to where they get to this point in their career, and I know I did, to where it's like, do I really go for it here, or do I just kinda not? You know? And and it's like, it would be easy to not do it. And, I mean, it would be easy to do it, but it would be easier not to do it. And then you you have this burn the boat moment to where you just jump, and you just say, man, I'm gonna do this, and if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be the best at it that I can possibly be. And if I fail, I'm gonna have no regrets. And I think that living that way is powerful, and I could tell that you've done that in your career. And that's one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you because because you've obviously done that, and I'm try I was trying to get to that moment of, like, you know, like you said, you have a fear of failure, but there's also such thing as a fear of success where all your friends are like, oh, Hollywood. Look who's here. You know? And, man, that that kills people, man. That kills people. It sucks the motivation right out of them, and they're like, man, I thought I thought this big break, I thought I won this big tournament, and I was gonna be great, but all my friends are, like, they don't wanna be around me anymore. And and coming to grips
Michael Waddell: with that Thank you, Jack.
Tom Rowland: Yeah. Coming to grips with that and moving forward and past that, that's hard. That really is, man. It's hard.
Michael Waddell: You you you speak in my story now because that that
Tom Rowland: Sounds like we got similar really similar story, man. Really.
Michael Waddell: It's funny. And and
Tom Rowland: I just wish I had made it as big as Michael Waddell.
Michael Waddell: No, man. You have. That's like, I can't wait to talk about some of the things. I mean, even the Waypoint, I mean, my God. I was so I'm so proud of of what y'all are doing and and where this thing can go. I mean, I know we still gotta talk about that, but as you're saying, did you find this, Tom, and it's ironic, you're talking about people that I admire, like the Bill Dance, the Roland Martins. I mean, you don't even realize that all those guys, and I talk about people in the hunting industry, and I've become friends with a lot of people, you know, without having a name drop, but like the Blake Shelton's and like the Red Akins and all these guys. Man, we've been friends a long time. And I can't tell you, they've all been in a place in their career where it was kinda over. Or or or, you know, call it depression. That that's kind of a a big kinda maybe maybe not fair to say that. But you get into a place to where I'm going for it. I'm either gonna sink or I'm gonna swim. And it seems like, Tom, is that where it seemed like always something turned for you?
Tom Rowland: It seems like it. I mean, it doesn't happen right away. It's not like you say, I'm going for it. And then tomorrow, you're like, I sure am glad I did. No. It's like Yeah. A couple years from there. You know, you always hear the the the expression, he's a overnight success twenty years in the making. And that's that's how it happens, you know. It's like it's like all of a sudden people are like, where'd this guy come from, man? Wow. And then you dig into a little bit, and it's like, oh, well, he's been doing this for thirty years. Like, you know, whether it's the big country star or the rock and roll star or the whatever, a lot of them, like, they've been doing this for a long time. They've been like, there's a book I like called Chop Wood, Carry Water, and that's what it's about. It's like every day, you chop wood, you carry water, you do the basics, and you keep going. No matter what, you keep going and keep trying and keep going, and sooner or later, things are gonna start happening, but it does seem like you can get to a point to where you decide, I think that's too risky, or or or I'm I'm that's just not for me. And and it is that moment that is either the it's gonna take you where you wanna go or or or not. Your choice. Yeah. Sometimes it's sometimes hey. Sometimes it's a good choice to go back the other way for some people. But
Michael Waddell: I agree.
Tom Rowland: Not if that's what not if you got a burning desire in your heart to make it as a professional hunter like you or a professional fisherman like me. It's like you you gotta go.
Michael Waddell: And it's it's not easy. And and like I said, sometimes you, you know, sometimes you you definitely it's you know, I'm always talking sports analogies because I understand sports, and and I always grew up playing it. And obviously, sports give you a certain mental and physical toughness that help you kinda make some of this stuff easy when it comes to business and figuring out how to make decisions. But, you know, sometimes you do. You swing for a single. You know that, man, if I can get enough singles, like you said, the chop would carry water. And then there's times to where, like, look, it's time. I'm waiting for the fastball down the middle, and hell with it. I'm a freaking hit it up into the upper deck. And it's funny because even looking back on my career, there was two pivotal times that I remember, Tom, and I never really even said this, I was completely ready to be done with it all. And from a public standpoint, people might have thought that, man, Waddell's rocking, man. He's at the top of his game. But one was coming off Realtree road trips, coming off of full time employment at Realtree, and trying to sort this out and kind of somewhat figure out my path. And Realtree didn't know what to do and didn't know how to really reward me, And they didn't know how to let me take advantage of some of these opportunities, so I was in the process of kind of having to leave. But I remember being so depressed and kind of disgusted. I was going through a really tough time. I wasn't seeing my kids. I was killing everything. I was not making any money, you know, I was not making good money because I was just working as a full time guy. But I was working every weekend at every Bass Pro Shops, every Cabela's, every Gander Mountain, every store out there. I was going for promotions for, you know, Outdoor Channel. I was going promotions, you know, for all these companies. And and really, at the end of it, all I had was some, you know, new boots and a new bow and, and no money. And my marriage had failed, and my kids are like, and your name is Daddy. And I remember thinking, bullshit. I'm I'm done. I'm over I'm over the I'm either gonna figure out a way to handle some of these situations. And at that time, I would say selfishly, I was thinking, I'm either gonna make some money at this, or I'm I'm going back and going to work in construction with my dad. So I was like, I'm going for it. I'm gonna go big hard, and if it don't make it, then I'm completely fine, and I can say that my life's been good. And then soon after I did that, quickly, man, we found great success, both financially and being independent. And then, I went through some tough business times, but then soon after that I go through a very bad divorce. And I remember once again, I was in a place in my life, you know, personally, as I was thinking, Nope, I'm going to make these changes in my life, and it's going to take me into where I need to be. And if it don't, and I have to leave this behind, I will. And holy cow, it turned into something great. And so, with that, I've just learned that that is part of being a man or a woman. And you just learned that you can let the fear of failure drive you, but you also can learn to live with failure knowing that you at least did try. And I think the biggest nightmare I would have if I look back, my biggest regret would be I didn't change anything and I didn't go for anything. That would be more depressing than to fail than to not have at least tried to get up to the plate, for sure.
Tom Rowland: I'm with you. I'm with you a 100%. Like, that that that that fear, there's a fear for me of of of living with regret these days. And as I get a little bit older too, I realize I see it with people. They're They're like, man, I could have done something like that. You think, man, that would be that would be a rough way to wake up every morning, like, knowing that you could've, but you didn't. And then living for the rest of your life, like, just just saying that all the time, like, I could have done that. Like like in Napoleon Dynamite, like, man, if the coach had put me in there, I'd have thrown that football over that mountain, you know, we'd have won the state for sure. You know, like like like, that guy, he's living with that all the time. And and that's the advice that I give to people too because for whatever reason, I guess people I'm sure a lot of people ask you the advice too. Like, how did you do this? What did what what would you tell me to do? And it's like, man, just go for it. Go for it. Just
Michael Waddell: go for it.
Tom Rowland: Especially if you're young, man. If you're young, what's the worst that's gonna happen? You decide, I it's not for me, or you decide, well, I thought it was gonna be a little bit better or whatever. But I know I do know people that came to the Florida Keys, and they tried guiding for a while. And they might have guided for four or five years, and then they leave. Yeah. And they're fine with it. They're leaving on their own terms. They've they decided that, you know what? This was great. I went for it. I I competed with what I see as the best fishing guides on the planet, and I was one of them.
Chris Fischer: Pete Clemley came in who was a senior guy in The United States, and he built a great team with some great scientists down throughout, California, Mexico, Ecuador. And we were doing this big connectivity study because we believe that there was a a highway from the Riviera Jeyalos to the Cocos through Cocos down to the Galapagos. I think it's and, he he put that team together, and that was our first real big collaborative team. Nice. You know? So we started to, you know, then at that time, we might have been doing six projects or seven projects. And, you know, now we do 25 projects on every shark, and we have a team of 49 researchers getting samples from every animal we touch, you know, at 25 different research institutions. Wow. Because that's ocean first. That's grandkid first. Right? That's it's just about it's all rise with the tide, and what we have is the practical component to actually get the sample or collect the data. You know, they don't have that. So now we see ourselves as trying to really become like a servant of this ocean, a servant of the science community to help them go 10 times further than they could ever go on their own in a fraction of the time.
Tom Rowland: Sure. And that's, when does it move over to, like, Florida and the East Coast?
Chris Fischer: So in 2000 was it 2012 when The Gulf Oil Spill occurred?
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Chris Fischer: 2011 or right around there? Yep. We had just finished that project coming down with Clemley through, you know, Mexico and Costa Rica and Ecuador that we just talked about. And I called him and I said I called over the, you know, the biggest shark guy name I could find at the time was a gentleman named doctor Bob Bob Hueter at Mote Marine Lab. So I called Bob. I'm like, Bob, hey, man. I you know, I don't know what they can do, but there's this terrible oil spill, and I have this, you know, ship. Like, is there anything we can do to help?
Tom Rowland: And
Chris Fischer: he was like, yes. I need you to get that boat over here to Boca Grande. We need to get some tags and some bull sharks and some tiger sharks and some great hammerhead sharks, and we need to understand how this oil spill is affecting them. And that kinda moved it over. Bob at Mode, you know, he's still one of my closest friends. He ultimately really became my science mentor. And I began to talk to him about, you know, eating what I was finding, all these inefficiencies and how the science the the system wasn't set up to create the abundant future. In fact, the system was the reason why we have a data deficit problem. Mhmm. And so we began to develop, like, the o search system and brought in a like, I have a data scientist, a chief scientist who's a veterinarian, and then Bob's my chief adviser. And when we move around the world, this group assembles the scientists from all over that region, make sure they understand all the different opportunities to learn. And if they don't have the capacity to do it, we pluck one of our senior people from a different part of the world and have them come over and kind of mentor that person and do that project with them and then transfer that skill to that part of the world Wow. So that we're building a base of scientists around the world that everyone can manage their own place and be the champion for their own place. Right. And so Bob really helped me shape that whole these massive collaborative teams now that we really facilitate, manage, bring together, and then ultimately serve with the ship and then hold them accountable to deliver papers in a timely manner. And if they do not, we transfer the dataset to someone who will because, ultimately, we need that to make sure every dollar is maximized from when we start working on the water until we affect policy.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Chris Fischer: So it's been like this. Like, you know, there's all sorts of stuff. That's kinda big picture stuff. But, yeah, it's been a wild ride. You know?
Tom Rowland: There's I would think it's been the wildest ride. I mean, just to think that you start out by somebody asking you if you can help them catch a great white shark to these exponential increases in data and the way things are done. It's a total shakeup. I didn't realize all of that.
Chris Fischer: Total disruption of of of the individual approach to science. That's right. And and and improving that all can rise with the TED. So then what was funny was, so now we're helping all these people and there's all this data. Right? And then everyone this is satisfying. Who owns the data? Right? I was like, oh my god. So I was like, well, we paid for everything, so I guess we do. It was the first time I ever had to, like, claim the ownership of the data so I could then give it away.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Chris Fischer: So, you know, our scientists have, a little bit, you know, the time they need to write their papers. And then after their papers are written, those datasets, we get data requests every week from people all over the world, and then we share if it's a legitimate science project with a person. We have a science meeting every week that reviews our data requests and now we share those datasets with students and scientists all over the world who are constantly writing new things coming out of the datasets. And but the concept of the ownership of data, you know, everyone's holding on to their data. And, I was like, no more, man. This is by the people for the people. So that's when I started the Global Shark Tracker because that was hugely controversial in 2013 because I was showing the data.
Tom Rowland: Right. And they didn't For
Chris Fischer: the first time no. For the first time, the public was allowed into the inside of a science project seeing the same thing scientists saw.
Tom Rowland: How many people have downloaded that app?
Chris Fischer: We have about 2,000,000 active users a month.
Tom Rowland: Everybody I know has that app. Everybody I know, wherever you go, they're like, hey. There's a great white shark right out there. I'm like, yeah. That's so cool. I mean, that has been a massive success. What has the app success and the number of people getting that app? What has that done for your for your progress, for your movement?
Chris Fischer: Well, we knew when we that was 2013, twenty twelve, thirteen. We just finished tagging, like, 40 sharks down in South Africa. So it must have been 2012 when we launched the Global Shark Tracker, and that was really to allow people into the project in real time. And, you know, the what happened was right after it launched, our South African sharks were on it, but then we moved the ship. I thought, the show had been canceled, and I thought I was gonna lose the ship and go bankrupt. This was, like, the second or third time. This was 2012. So I I had about a half $1,000,000 left over from the TV gig, and Skomal was up in Massachusetts, and a couple of white sharks had just show started showing up in Cape Cod around 2010, 2009. But They had no idea where they were coming from or going to at all. I had no idea. So I moved the ship up there in 2012, and with the last of my money, we went out and we tagged two sharks. We tagged this one shark named Jeanne. We named after Jeanne Clark, one of the founders of Mote. And then we named the second one Mary Lee after my mom. And I named that shark Mary Lee after my mom because I thought that was gonna be the last shark we'd ever touch.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Chris Fischer: Because I was literally, like, standing on the bow of the contender with, like, my face into the wind, talking with my dad, like, planning on, like, how am I gonna liquidate the ship and maybe liquidate my house to cover bills. But the guys were in the back, you know, Brett, like, fishing hard every minute of day and night trying to make something happen for us and trying to kinda manage that and hold it together. And then we caught that Mary Lee there at the end of of the trip, and I thought it would be the last shark we test. So named the shark Mary Lee after my mom. The tracker had just started, and then Mary Lee proceeded to cruise down the East Coast and, like, stick her nose in almost every bay and river and estuary and the entire Eastern Seaboard of The United States fell in love with Mary Lee the shark, and it saved those search.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Chris Fischer: The big moment was I remember when Mary Lee we tagged her in the '12, and, I'll I I bounced between Florida and Park City, Utah. Mhmm. So I moved back and forth, and I got kids and work here, and and kids and work there and so forth. And so I was out here in Park City, and it was I think it was, you know, like, around the first of the year, it was a blizzard here, absolute blizzard. And I look on the tracker and Mary Lee pings in. When we tag those sharks in 2008, people said there was no white sharks in Florida at that time.
Tom Rowland: Right. Yes. I mean, that was
Chris Fischer: So there's no white sharks in Florida.
Tom Rowland: That was so that was the total most common thing. Meanwhile, I knew commercial fishermen that caught them different ways, And they had teeth, and they had jaws, and they weren't supposed to have any of this stuff. Yeah. They had it. And I saw it. And I'm like, what? Like, there's a white shark guy. I mean, that was, like, that was so outrageous. Right? But, like, on social media, just yesterday, there's a white shark on on, in Islamorada. I don't know if you saw that. Can you
Chris Fischer: tell me? No. We're we got yeah. So it's we we're tracking too. You know? So in well, in 2012, when we tagged Mary Lee, people we were like, where's this shark gonna go? People are like, oh, out in the middle of the Atlantic. Nobody and then Mary Lee went straight to Florida. And I'm like, I guess we gotta go look down in Florida. People like, there's no white sharks in Florida. I'm like, well, I know there's one. Yeah. There's one. Mary Lee, and she's a giant one. Yeah. That one off the off
Tom Rowland: the reef. That's a 130 feet of water.
Chris Fischer: Yeah. And, I mean, that that that is their primary winter habitat. We have now know and understand that the Eastern Seaboard Of Florida is the primary winter habitat of the white sharks primarily between Hatteras and Canaveral.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Chris Fischer: But then some of them do leak down below Canaveral occasionally, go for a little walkabout in the Gulf, but then come back up and into this this real primary zone, which is from the Gulf Stream pins a cold body of water against the continent from Hatteras to Canaveral, and they live in that little cold strip of water along the coast between it and the Gulf Stream. And that is the primary winter habitat. But back then, people said there was no white sharks in Florida. And Mary Lee went, and she pinged in right underneath the Jacksonville Beach Pier.
Tom Rowland: Yeah.
Chris Fischer: And I didn't know what to do, and I was like, I felt like I gotta call somebody. So I called the Jacksonville Beach Police Department. I'm like, this is the weirdest phone call you ever got. Like, I got a 4,000 pound white shark, like, right underneath the pier right now. And,
Tom Rowland: What did they say to
Chris Fischer: that? They looked at it, and and they was like, okay. And they went out and they closed the beach for a couple hours, and then she pinged in three miles off the beach, and they opened it right back up. But then the entire press, the the global press universe just erupted about that story. And Mary Lee had already begun to build a following, and, you know, she really created so much awareness. Then all of a sudden, we went from having, like, a couple 100,000,000 viewers, you know, around the world on National Geographic and the History Channel. And in the 2012, Mary Lee drove, like, 2,000,000,000 earned media impressions. Billion with a b.
Tom Rowland: Wow.
Chris Fischer: I'm like, oh, wow. I think there's another path towards scale and value for brands. We can drive the earned media space because we're newsmakers now. Our sharks are newsmakers.
Tom Rowland: Right.
Chris Fischer: And if we leverage that properly when they move across various, you know, areas and around cities, all the press wants to cover that. We can push the story forward about the sharks and how how they affect the system. And they needed content, and I only gave them brand integrated content so I could leverage their media space.
Tom Rowland: That's what you learn from offshore adventures and the other TV shows.
Chris Fischer: So suddenly, we're delivering billions of earned media impressions in stories about saving the ocean for brands. You know? And it's real.
Tom Rowland: And so that is is how you go from bankruptcy at that moment of tagging tagging that last shark to,
Chris Fischer: A new path to build on.
Tom Rowland: Path. Right? And and being self self contained and and self sufficient
Chris Fischer: at that. And Caterpillar really stepped up right at that moment. And Caterpillar came in and funded our work for three years. They, you know, obviously got all the machinery in the vessel just back to A plus. It was kinda like, here, we can do one of these three. This is a great bridge. This is a great brand for thing. It's not a forever thing. We can get you in a good spot and help you bridge this and get your equipment out in. It's a caterpillar. It was huge. Huge. We wouldn't have made it through without them.
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