Matt Lawson | SEALFIT Kokoro, Finding Your Why & Getting in the Fight | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 11

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 11 with Matt Lawson.

Introduction

Tom Rowland: I'm Tom Rowland, and this is the Tom Rowland podcast.

Tom Rowland: Hello, friends. On today's show, I get to catch up with one of my good friends, Matt Lawson. Now Matt is not a professional fisherman or involved in the television industry, nor is he a guide or an outfitter or anything like that, like so many of the guests that we have here. But what we do share is a common interest and a common experience called SealFit Kokoro.

Tom Rowland: SealFit Kokoro is a crucible event where you go out and train with Navy SEALs, former Navy SEALs like Mark Divine, and his staff of both current and former Navy SEALs and BUD/S instructors. I mean, it's the real deal. And I wanted to catch up with Matt because this event was profound in my life. It really helped me to reevaluate my leadership qualities, get a gut check on my leadership qualities. I kind of thought I was a decent leader before I went there, and boy, did I learn a lot about it at that point.

Tom Rowland: And in hindsight, I look back, and there's a person that signed up for that event, and there's a different person that came out on the other side. And it really was profound. And the success that I've had with my business and also, more importantly, the success that I've had with my family. As my leadership abilities grew, we just came closer as a family, and that really is the take-home value from something like this.

Tom Rowland: I wanted to catch up with Matt because I wanted to see if he felt the same. There's been a little bit of time now since he's graduated, and I wanted to see if he felt the same as well as finding out what his reasons were to go to the event in the first place.

Tom Rowland: You know, an event like this could really benefit anyone in any profession, and it might be hard for some people to understand or even get their mind around how going out and training with a team of Navy SEALs for fifty hours in the cold ocean on a California beach might somehow make you a better fishing guide, might make you a better outfitter or a television host, but I can promise you that it did for me. And what it did, it went far beyond just completing the event, having some sense of satisfaction that I had completed this event. What it did, and I wasn't really expecting this, is those guys really force you to find out why it is that you're doing whatever it is that you're doing.

Tom Rowland: And really, once those questions are answered of why am I devoting my life to fishing in the first place, and what is it that I was trying to accomplish and why, once those answers come into focus for you, man, everything else is easier in your life, whether that is why are you running your business? Why are you running your business the way that you're running it? Are you even interested in doing what you're doing? Is there another way? So many of those kinds of questions. The answers that I received, I found on a very cold beach surrounded by some really amazing people. It was about 3:00 in the morning. I was soaking wet, covered with sand, physically exhausted, pushed way beyond my limits. And I kind of came to grips with what it was I was trying to do and why, and really came away from the event with a much stronger focus.

Tom Rowland: Since then, we have experienced a lot of great successes and also said no to a lot of other opportunities that don't really fit the mission, don't really fit the purpose. So Matt had a similar experience, and we discuss it at length on this show. And for Matt, he had been so focused on his job, growing his business, growing his family that he kind of forgot about his own physical health.

Tom Rowland: And I think a lot of people do that. I think a lot of people go through a period in their life where they really are focused on things that are at the forefront, but they kind of forget about one of the most important things, and that is that if you're not physically healthy, you're not vibrant, you don't have enough energy, you can't really be the person that you could potentially be. You can't really accomplish a lot of the things that you could accomplish if you are physically fit and strong. There's nothing in this life that you can't do better if you are healthier, if you are fitter, if you are stronger. Everything, you can do better.

Tom Rowland: So Matt had an experience where he was getting ready for the birth of his son. And, like me, that was a major motivator to get back in shape and kind of reevaluate the focus of your life and your priorities. So he looked around and kind of floundered for a bit until he looked to the extreme, signed up for SealFit Kokoro, and embarked down this journey. And he told me that he has thought about SealFit Kokoro every single day since the event, and he's not the only one that told me that. And pretty much for me, it's almost exactly the same thing.

Tom Rowland: Wherever you are in your journey, you might be thinking, man, that's for me. I need to do something like that. Yeah. I don't think it's really necessary for somebody to go to the extreme that we went to with the SealFit Kokoro or something like GORUCK selection. I mean, maybe it is. But whether it's fifty hours or five K, embarking down that journey of regaining your health, of getting to the point of physical exhaustion, there's something about the way that that helps you with mental clarity. And like I said, it could be five K. It could be a walk around the block. It could be going to the gym every day for a month. It could be yoga. It could be whatever. Whatever it is to you that pushes you to that limit. I think there's a profound effect on clearing the head involved with exercise. I'm a big believer in it.

Tom Rowland: So I really enjoyed this conversation with Matt, and I hope that you will too. And if you get something out of it, I would just love it if you would go down to iTunes and rate and review this show because, apparently, it's super important for a new podcast to get these ratings. I have actually been quite surprised and blown away with the ratings and reviews that we've already gotten on this show, and I want to thank everybody that's already done that very much because your comments and the things that you said about me and the show and the potential for the show, it really meant a lot to me, and I appreciate that very much. So if you enjoy it, go over to iTunes, hit the stars, whichever one you think is appropriate, and give it a little rating, and that will sure help to get this thing started and get underway because I've got some big plans for this, and I'd love to get some of the people on this show that have really meant a lot to me, and I'm sure that they might mean a lot to you.

Tom Rowland: Now that all that's done, I want to introduce you to my friend, Matt Lawson.

Catching Up: The New Office

Tom Rowland: What's going on with you today?

Matt Lawson: Just, you know, come into the work and just getting ready for the day.

Tom Rowland: Well, I like your new office. I just walked up here, and Matt has moved into a new office. You got a whole new office space. How many square feet do you have at this?

Matt Lawson: We have roughly about 4,000 square feet. We moved in in November.

Tom Rowland: Wow. Yeah. How many employees do you have?

Matt Lawson: We have 13 right now. So still looking to grow and expand, so still have a long way to go.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, we've done a lot of training together. We have a couple of different groups that we belong to. One being the book club that we started, which we'll definitely talk about some of that. But also just the training group, and I've watched you over, I don't know what, six or eight years, probably grow this business, grow yourself on a personal level, and do things like challenge yourself on purpose. So I'm just kind of wondering what that looks like for you. Like, when you are living your life, and you're a dad too. Right? How many children?

Matt Lawson: We have two kids. We have an eight-year-old daughter and a four-year-old son.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So you're pretty busy.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. We're pretty active. Nonstop.

Finding SealFit

Tom Rowland: And so you found time at one point to do a couple of different events. You went to 20X?

Matt Lawson: I did. I did the 20X in November '13 in Atlanta.

Tom Rowland: And then you did SealFit Kokoro also. Both of those are going through the SealFit organization.

Matt Lawson: Correct.

Tom Rowland: Okay. And so how did you find out about that?

Matt Lawson: That's a good question. I was — we had just had our second child, Mac, and I really wasn't in the best of shape physically.

Tom Rowland: Really? How did that happen? You kind of strike me as somebody that stays in shape, or at least now.

Matt Lawson: Well, I guess just going through — I was in decent shape until we got married, and then that typical process where for probably about a ten-year period of time, not a lot of physical activity, on and off, on and off, on and off.

Tom Rowland: Is that because you're putting so much effort into being newly married and starting your business, or getting your business to a certain level?

Matt Lawson: I would say that has somewhat to do — yes. That's definitely part of it. And then I just kind of moved away, meaning I just started doing some other things, and I wasn't working out or being as physically active as I probably should have been, especially on a consistent basis. So about thirty-eight, when I was 38 years old, turning 39, roughly, we had our second child. Back — I was, well, I've got to get in shape. I've got to do a better job. I've got to take care of myself. I really want to see this through, being active in his life, and both kids for that matter, but really for his life as well because he was just born. I've got to get back in better shape.

Matt Lawson: And so in the past, I'd always done a lot of more traditional working out with weights, more of a bodybuilding type, and I thought, well, I want to try something different. And I was just really searching online, and I came across SealFit. And I thought this is really interesting. And when I saw the events like Kokoro, I was like, wow. That is extremely intense. I think that I can do that mentally, but from a physical standpoint, I was a long, long, long way off.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So when you first see that — and this is before we knew one another — and what are you thinking? Like, at this point, are you kind of needing a massive change, something to really shock you back into a different type of routine? Or where were you when you first came across this?

Matt Lawson: Well, I wanted a change. I didn't want to go back to what I'd been doing even before when I was pretty active. I wanted something, I guess you could say, more holistic. More mind-body, combination type of training. And that's what appealed to me with SealFit. So I joined an Unbeatable Mind program initially at SealFit.

Tom Rowland: Oh, okay.

Matt Lawson: And then started down that path and then started doing the workouts, the op WODs, or the SOF WODs, and stuff of that nature. And then that started progressing. And then a couple of months into it, again, going through their events, looked at a 20X. And I thought, yeah, that sounds doable in about six months.

Understanding SealFit, Mark Divine, and the WODs

Tom Rowland: So what you just discussed there is important — not everybody knows what all that means. So SealFit is an organization that is run by Mark Divine, a former Navy SEAL. And on his staff, either by contractor or sometimes full-time, are former Navy SEALs, even currently serving Navy SEALs. And he puts out a website that at one point, when you're looking at it, when I used to look at it every day, it was free. He would put out these different stair-stepped approaches to fitness at the level of a currently serving Navy SEAL, and that would be what was called the op WOD.

Tom Rowland: And the op WOD — WOD meaning workout of the day, W-O-D — the op WOD was a really major-league amount of volume. I mean, it would take me two hours some days to get through those.

Matt Lawson: They're intense.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And they incorporate a lot of volume, a lot of not just weightlifting or conditioning, but both mixed together as well as rucking and rowing and swimming often, and swimming with fins often. And basically, it's a great opportunity for someone who is getting ready to go to BUD/S or getting ready to go into the service, especially at a special forces level, to follow that program and get in shape. But you're not just going to jump into that. So Mark Divine is smart enough that he has a master's program, which is a little bit stair-stepped down, not much, though. And then there's the SOF WOD, which is — what does that stand for? Special operations?

Matt Lawson: Forces.

Tom Rowland: Okay. So that, in my recollection, was more less weight focused, more endurance.

Matt Lawson: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: More endurance and more body-weight oriented. Then maybe there's even another stair step down.

Matt Lawson: Yes. There was an on-ramp.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Like an on-ramp program. That's what you see in a lot of CrossFit gyms — you look at the workload and it just seems too much. And not only does it seem too much, but there are all these crazy acronyms that you don't understand, and people are talking about things that seem foreign. And so there is this on-ramp program, which might take two weeks. It might take a month. Some people, it might take more. Some people might just stay on the on-ramp program and be fine and be challenged fully.

Tom Rowland: But what you're saying is that when you saw this, your main motivation for getting in really good shape was the birth of your child.

Matt Lawson: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, I definitely wanted to improve where I was at that time and then also just for myself too, to feel better again and get back in better shape. And so when I came across SealFit, I said, this is it, and this is what I'm going to do. So I jumped in both feet. And I really had no idea, as I started down that journey, I guess you could say, with the 20X, after I started on board with Mark Divine's Unbeatable Mind, which is a super program that he puts on.

What Is Unbeatable Mind?

Tom Rowland: And let's just explain that. How would you explain Unbeatable Mind if somebody asked you what is Unbeatable Mind? What would you say?

Matt Lawson: I would say the Unbeatable Mind process is more of a routine that Divine puts in place, and it's more focusing on being present, awareness. He has the big four. He's a big believer of the big four, which is controlling your breath and positive self-talk and visualization and then effective goal setting. So that's kind of the cornerstone of the Unbeatable Mind and just managing your mind, controlling your mind, and not letting that monkey mind take place and run a different direction. And so coming back to centering yourself and stuff. And it's not only in working out or in different events and stuff like that, but even day to day, whether we're dealing with our families, or we're dealing in the workplace, or just with friends. I mean, how we have that monkey mind always moving. So really trying to focus and create a stronger, more controlled mind, I guess you could say.

Tom Rowland: And so when you're not in shape and you don't have this structure, before you embark on this — were you, when you look back in hindsight, were you just frazzled? I mean, what was it like when you were not in good shape? Was your monkey mind driving you crazy?

Matt Lawson: Sure. And I think I was more reactive in a lot of situations, and you feel so much better when you are working out. You are doing things physical. I think as you're working your body out, you're also working your mind. You know that as well as anyone. And so I just wasn't where I really wanted to be. I just didn't feel very good physically. I kind of felt sluggish. How's that? And my waist size actually was showing that, moving from a thirty-two-size waist to a thirty-five-size waist. I know it's crazy, and I'm today back to a thirty-two-size waist. So not that that's really important, but I'm just talking about how I really let myself go. And it was just really out of just being, at the end of the day, lazy. No other —

Setting the Goal: 20X as a Stepping Stone to Kokoro

Tom Rowland: So now you have motivation, and you actually have a goal of the first one going to be 20X, or was your goal to do Kokoro first?

Matt Lawson: When I saw Kokoro first, I knew that I wanted to take on Kokoro, but I was just so far away from what the standards were, the minimum standards, and then finding out, after more and more reading, that with a fifty-hour nonstop, no sleeping, it's modeled after the Navy SEAL Hell Week. I was like, my goodness. I've got a long way to go. So let me do the baby step, or a smaller step, I should say. Let's work towards the 20X. And so I contacted, through email, Brad McLeod, who's a former Navy SEAL.

Tom Rowland: Yep. And SEALgrinderPT?

Matt Lawson: SEALgrinderPT. Awesome guy. Phenomenal guy. And just really down to earth, very helpful. And so I'm reaching out to Brad, and he was really good going through all that process on the emails back and forth and giving me some workouts to focus on. And then in November '13 — so I started SealFit in May '13. And so in November '13, I went, did a 20X event, which was —

Inside a 20X Event

Tom Rowland: So a 20X. Describe a 20X event, because I have not done a 20X event. I've coached a 20X event, but I've actually not been through a 20X event.

Matt Lawson: Well, for me, Tom, initially, I was like, wow. What have I gotten myself into? When the door came up and they came out with a water hose and the ice baths and everything else right off the bat, the intensity level, I was like, man, this is far more than I originally expected. And what have I gotten myself into? I mean, I remember having that thought as we were doing thrusters and push-ups and getting in the ice bath and being sprayed in the face with the water hose and all the screaming and yelling with the bullhorns and all that. I was like, wow. But it's a phenomenal event that they put on, and it's very professional. I thought Brad did a phenomenal job, and coach Lance Cummings, who was also with SealFit, is also a Navy SEAL. Phenomenal. I mean, very professional. And then you had the black shirts, which were former Kokoro graduates that also participated in it and helped Brad and Lance Cummings run the event. And so it's a twelve-hour event. We started at roughly 7:00 in the morning, and we finished at seven at night. But it's very intense. It's nonstop. It is great mental training and physical training. It'll definitely, as they'll say, show you that you're capable of 20 times more than you think you can do. I mean, the intensity level was crazy.

Tom Rowland: That's really the point, and that's the point of really all of this. I mean, there are a couple of different reasons for an event like this to exist. One, you are a young man that's thinking about going to the real special forces. Probably nothing better than to have a dose of this occasionally beforehand to really get a good idea of what you're going to subject yourself to for six, eight months and possibly for the rest of your life. But then there's something else that appeals to people like you and me, and that is a massive change from what you're doing right now, whatever that may be.

Tom Rowland: For me, it's a fishing guide. I'm a fishing guide going fishing every day. I'm in my comfort zone. Everything is comfortable. For you, it is your new-dad motivation as someone who just had a child.

Tom's Own Fitness Journey as a New Father

Tom Rowland: And that was really the beginning of my fitness journey, when Turner, my oldest son, was born. Now, he's about to be — he's 20 now, so he's about to be 21. So we're talking twenty years ago. Cynthia gets pregnant with Turner and I'm thinking, man, I'm happy with so many areas of my life, but not all of the areas of my life. When this baby gets here, I'm going to be in the best shape of my life. That's what I decided. That was my motivation.

Tom Rowland: And so I started, and it was not easy because I'm out there pulling a boat all day long, and that's as simple as it sounds. You're pushing a boat with a stick into the wind usually all day long, which makes for strong shoulders. It makes for a strong chest. It makes also for a big belly occasionally because your clients bring you lunch every day. And you know, you're out there and sometimes the fishing's not good, and you get a little bored. And what do you do? You sit down and have a sandwich. Think about what's your next move.

Tom Rowland: So eating is a part of this whole thing, and next thing you know, then your clients ask you out to dinner, and a lot of times you're not getting enough sleep, and you're back up before the sun again the next day. Next thing you know, you're 40 pounds heavier than you want to be, even though you're incredibly active and even though you're leading an awesome life, and it has you being incredibly happy with what you're doing and the things you're accomplishing and the people that you're around, but there's this other aspect to it that you're kind of missing.

Tom Rowland: And that's the discipline in your diet, the discipline in the working out. And quite simply, I couldn't go very many days on the boat one after another when I wasn't in very good shape. I wasn't drinking enough water. You know, the whole thing — when you start to clean up your diet, you start thinking about all these other things. So when I'm out there on the boat every single day, I'm not drinking enough water. I'm letting my electrolytes get low.

Tom Rowland: Then four, five, six days in on a stretch — and you see it happen with the clients all the time — they just go down. Their energy level all week long just goes down and down and down until the last day they're basically mush. And they just haven't been drinking enough water. Their electrolytes are down. They've been staying up too late. They've probably been drinking at night. They're off their diet. They haven't gotten any exercise, and they're out in the hot Florida Keys sun. It's a recipe for just wilting someone.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. No doubt.

Tom Rowland: So as I started to get back into shape, I just decided thirty minutes a day. That was my first thing. I'm going to run for thirty minutes a day. That was my idea. But, of course, going from no running at all for years to trying to run thirty minutes a day usually equals a running injury of some sort.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. That's tough.

Tom Rowland: You know, you get plantar fasciitis, you get a tight IT band, and you're just out of sorts because you haven't been doing this. And so you encounter those problems and the fitness journey goes up and down until you finally get that under control. But I didn't know how to stay in shape. I didn't know how to get back in shape because I was a high school wrestler, but I didn't know what does a regular person do. Like, what am I going to go find, a wrestling team to wrestle with? Or where — so I go back and try to join a regular gym, which is a weird situation because I had been in there a long time. There are a lot of mirrors, and it's kind of weird. And so, anyway, I just settled on running and then ended up running marathons and all that. But that was the beginning of my journey too, was having a baby. And that's a huge life change, and it's a great monumental time in your life where you can say, I'm changing this now. Like, a major indelible change.

Facing the Intensity: Why You Don't Quit

Tom Rowland: So with you, you go to this 20X. And I'm interested in that first part, like, the door opens, the water hoses, in some cases fireworks and smoke bombs and noise and megaphones, and the toughest dudes you've ever seen in your life are right there. So how do you not quit right then?

Matt Lawson: Well, yeah. I mean, and I guess some people do, and I have witnessed that from being on the other side. I was fortunate enough to be a coach on a 20X event after completing Kokoro. And people do quit. It's amazing. But there was just no way — that wasn't an option for me. I mean, it just wasn't going to happen no matter what.

Tom Rowland: Well, one of the things that's interesting there is that that's not an option because your main goal is Kokoro.

Matt Lawson: That's right.

Tom Rowland: And this is just a stair step on the way. And so you have mentally trained yourself immediately that this is just a stair step. And if I can't handle the first five minutes of this, there's no possibility that I'm going to be able to handle this over here.

Matt Lawson: No way. And it was funny because we were going around the room before we actually started the event. Coach Brad was talking, and coach Lance and stuff. So we had to stand up and tell everyone why we were there and what our goal was. And so when I stood up and said that I wanted to complete Kokoro in the next year or two, Brad looked at me like I was crazy.

Tom Rowland: Other than the target being on your back at this point, what else did that do for you?

Matt Lawson: Yeah. And then I had the black shirts giving me a hard time throughout the whole event, just, you know, ragging me on in a sense. Everyone looked at me like I was crazy, and I probably was, to some extent. But, yeah, that was coming out of the gate at the very beginning. I was just blown away by the intensity of it. I mean, I really can't explain. And it was great for me to experience that intensity because that's Kokoro nonstop. And I would even say then some. But it's a great event that SealFit puts on. The 20X is phenomenal, and all the coaches were so professional. And they definitely don't coddle you by any means, and people quit all the time. The ones that I've been involved with on the coaching side, the attrition rates — I know that they don't want it to be there. That's not the goal of a 20X at all, is to have anyone quit. That's not the objective of it, but they still have 50% attrition rates that I've witnessed inside it. And it's really more mental. It's really, in my opinion, 80% or 90% mental.

Matt Lawson: You have to get there physically, get your body prepared physically. I heard a wise statement by someone a while back saying preparation with anything is everything. And so that's the key, I think, going into it — physically getting prepped and then mentally just committing. I mean, no doubt, no matter what. And they're big at staying present and not thinking too far ahead and not thinking about what just happened and focusing on others. And I learned so much about myself going through the 20X experience and what's really possible, and then about handling other people in those situations as well and watching others go through it.

Tom Rowland: So you're talking about handling other people, like, in your regular life or in that particular camp?

Matt Lawson: Well, in that camp, but also assisting and helping and encouraging and motivating, because everyone goes through the ups and downs, the roller coaster, even of a 20X event over a twelve-hour period of time. The intensity factor of it is crazy, and it's the real deal. I mean, they're serious about it. And it's just odd to do a lot of the things that we did and others have done going through those 20X events. It's not normal. And it's not like — I've run a marathon, and I think they're awesome, and all those events are awesome like that. But it's not my pace. It's the coach's pace.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Matt Lawson: And their pace, being Navy SEALs, is a little bit different, a little bit faster.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And it's customized. It's intense. Super intense. But when I say it's customized, it's like, okay, this guy's sailing through, so we are going to put the hammer down. And this other guy can't keep up. So we're going to structure this to where — let me see your backpack, and I'm giving it to the strongest guy. And in fact, let's give him five backpacks. Because everyone here is going to suffer. It's not like the five K where it's a very significant challenge for some people, and maybe that's the peak of their athletic life. When that's fine, that's great. But there's another guy that ran a marathon last weekend, and this is a training run, and he sails through. But that's where the coaches in these events are equalizers. And that brings me to the whole point of the thing, is that it's not about individuals. It's about the team.

Matt Lawson: That's right. No one does 20X by themselves. It's impossible. And it's virtually impossible to do Kokoro by yourself. You cannot do it by yourself. It's something bigger than you.

Rambos Don't Make It: Learning to Be a Team

Tom Rowland: Those are the things that I really learned in my experience with this. My background, for whatever reason, is in individual sports. Wrestling, swimming, tennis, racquetball. What else? Waterskiing, competitive waterskier growing up, and probably a few others that I could — oh, like martial arts or karate or whatever. I was drawn to these individual activities. I don't know why. I generally found comfort in these individual things, like wrestling, for example. You could be on a bad team, but you could win your match. Your team could lose the match, the dual meet or whatever, but you still put your performance in, you did well.

Tom Rowland: So you could do well and the team could do poorly, or the team could do well and you could do poorly. But I never had a problem with the one-on-one. I kind of like the one-on-one, which has served me extremely well. And it's also been probably one of my greatest weaknesses in that. And then fishing is the same thing. Now, especially with a history of wrestling and competing one-on-one with people. Now I'm the captain of the boat. All the decisions are on me. I'm not asking anyone else for decisions. I don't need anyone else for decisions. There I am again in my comfort zone of living as a one-man show. Right? Well, that worked really well for a long time, and it definitely helped me to overcome a lot of challenges and to achieve a certain amount of success.

Tom Rowland: Then I embark on this journey of SealFit, Kokoro, later GORUCK selection. And I was looking for a challenge. I was definitely looking for a challenge. What I got out of the events was never considered going in. And when I got out of the event, what I learned in SealFit Kokoro immediately was that Rambos don't make it. So in other words, Rambo, if you remember — maybe some of you are too young if you're listening to this — but Rambo was a movie that probably was out in 1985.

Matt Lawson: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Right? And he was a one-man army. And he was a wrecking machine, and he just tore down this whole town. And he did it completely by himself, and he didn't need anybody. And the SEALs used that as an analogy. Rambos don't make it. If you think you're going to be like Rambo, you will not make it here. We will guarantee you that. What they were trying to say is the whole point of this camp is for you to learn how to operate as a team with strangers that you've never met before.

Matt Lawson: That's right.

Tom Rowland: And you're going to endure the most challenging physical things that you've ever endured in your life until you figure out how to be a team. And then what you're going to find is that you're going to be enduring those same challenges, but somehow they're going to be way easier.

Matt Lawson: Well, yeah. Absolutely. When you come together, that's a big thing of Kokoro and the 20X. When you figure that out — and it takes a while. Unfortunately, some faster than others. But when you figure that out and you come together as a team, it is seamless the way you operate. And like you said, it is — I won't say easier, but it's amazing how you move together once you do come together.

Bringing the Lessons Back to Real Life

Tom Rowland: And so the point of really all of this — it's really nice to be talking about going and training with Navy SEALs and all that. But the real take-home value is what does this teach you and how do you bring any of these lessons back to your normal life? Like, here we are sitting in your office that you've just moved into. So, obviously, you've achieved a pretty significant level of success since you went to one of these events. What lessons did you learn the hard way by going to both 20X and Kokoro that you bring back into your business life, your family life, your friends? What is it that you brought back?

Matt Lawson: I think there's a lot, but on the leadership role of it — it's not just, like you said earlier, the Rambo, the one person. It's more of a team group, and how do we lift up others? How do we — the person that's going through the tough times, how do we pick them up and move them forward? Not taking the responsibility off their shoulders. Just like in Kokoro, you still had to do the work.

Tom Rowland: Right. I mean, no one did anything for you. It's exactly the opposite. You're actually holding them exactly accountable for what they said they were going to do. Maybe for the first time in their life or for the first time in a while — not so much for the people that are attending these camps because they're pretty much stand-up people. Some of the best people I've ever met in my life were in this camp, but some of them are not being held accountable in their regular life. That was one of the things that I learned, is you're definitely helping people.

Matt Lawson: And taking the focus off myself and not so me, me, me, and focusing on others and how can we lift them up and how do we move together as a team.

Tom Rowland: So how did you bring that back to your family?

Matt Lawson: Well, of course, from an accountability standpoint, maybe a little bit, also a bit more — it's weird to say empathy in a sense, but a little bit more patient, and on the processes of what we're doing and raising the kids and stuff of that nature. And, again, just knowing that we're all capable of so much more, and working and talking with the kids about how we grow as getting outside of our comfort zones. I was definitely in a comfort zone for some time, building a business — and we were busting our butt building the business, but I'm still staying in my little cocoon. So when I moved into this path or this journey with SealFit, that was way outside of my comfort zone. I mean, the things that we were doing. I'm really not a cold-water person, to be honest with you.

Tom Rowland: Me either.

Matt Lawson: And, I'm telling you, the ice bath scared me to death because that's something I just don't enjoy, but you have to learn to wipe that. It's like doing bear crawls. You hate bear crawls, but you do so many of them, you end up actually liking them. It's weird. And so preparation for the Kokoro event was definitely a lot of cold baths, a lot of ice baths, a lot of cold showers, those types of things. But going back to the kids —

Tom Rowland: And that is because they are going to put you in the Pacific Ocean, which is about fifty-some-odd degrees. Right?

Matt Lawson: Yeah. 55.

Tom Rowland: And you're going to be sitting in there for a long time, very similar to the training that they do in the real BUD/S. So the cold-water preparation is so that you don't freak out when you get there.

Matt Lawson: I have never been in colder ice baths in my life than the ones they prepped at Kokoro. It was ridiculous.

Tom Rowland: That California air.

Matt Lawson: I guess so. And the other things they do — I won't spoil it for anyone that's thinking about doing Kokoro, what else takes place while you're in the ice baths. That's another level that they do. But, you know, our kids, wanting them to understand to get outside of their comfort zone and try new things, do new things. It doesn't matter if you fail or don't succeed. That's part of it. That's how we learn. So don't be afraid to do new things. So I'm really encouraging them to do a lot of things even if they don't think that they're good at it. Let's try that. Let's try as many things as we possibly can. And that's okay if we don't do really well, but let's just keep moving forward.

Tom Rowland: Is that being well received?

Matt Lawson: Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. That's day to day. That's definitely day to day. But, no, the Kokoro journey was phenomenal, and there's so many takeaways. And I think about it, I would say, on a daily basis. Something that happened. I had phenomenal teammates.

Tom Rowland: And this is how many years ago that you went to Kokoro, and you're still thinking about it every single day?

Matt Lawson: Isn't that crazy? I would call it an extremely transformative process that you go through. The journey itself is an amazing journey just to get there, but phenomenal teammates. I mean, phenomenal teammates.

Tom Rowland: Are you still in touch with those people?

Matt Lawson: Some of them I am, and not all the time, but periodically we touch base and stuff like that. And they're just really good people. Like you were stating earlier, they're very stand-up people. But the intensity that you go through with Kokoro — and it's a three-day deal, no sleep, surf torture, massive amounts of work capacity, and constant mental chaos. I mean, I think those four things kind of sum it up.

The Experts at Mental Chaos

Tom Rowland: Constant mental chaos on a level of expert-plus by the Navy SEALs who have already been through the real BUD/S, who have been instructors in the real BUD/S, and have also been in active duty. So when you're talking about how do you manipulate the mind and how do you get someone to quit and how do you make things really difficult or make somebody answer a question that they have when they got there, like, am I good enough to do this? Am I capable of doing this? They are experts.

Matt Lawson: They are. And no doubt about it. They are experts beyond what I think we can comprehend, and they're serious. I mean, they're extremely serious, and we had several former BUD/S instructors there on staff, and they run in shifts as you know. They run in the shifts.

Tom Rowland: That keeps them fresh.

Matt Lawson: Absolutely. And that's awful. But as coach Divine made a lot of good points when he started out on the grinder at the SealFit headquarters in Encinitas — you can watch it. You can watch videos. You can read books, and you can go hear people talk about mental toughness.

Tom Rowland: And you can hear people talk about going through this camp like we're talking about right now.

Matt Lawson: But until you actually step into it and do it, you have no earthly idea of what it really is and what you really go through. We can watch a two-minute clip at home and think, hey, I can do that. But it's really totally different when you're there and you're in it. And again, I've said intense a hundred times, but they are masters at finding your weakness. They're going to push you to that limit, and then you're going to decide. You're going to make that decision whether you take that step and move forward or you quit. And that's where they are masters.

Tom Rowland: I'm not — did you see that?

Matt Lawson: Oh, I did. I did. I felt that. I countless times — as you all know, as you're doing runs or sprints or whatever evolution we're doing at that time, if you're in the back, that's not a good place to be. Obviously, you haven't prepped enough. And so it's nothing to then see someone pull to the side, and then let's do an extra 50 perfect six-count burpees because you haven't put the work in to be here. So you do that enough, that makes you really start thinking, should I be here? So they're really getting — it's really a mind game where they're getting in your head. The constant yelling, screaming, which is great — you don't really enjoy it while it's taking place, but it's nothing personal. That's just part of the whole process. And so if that really bothers you, maybe you shouldn't be there in the first place.

Tom Rowland: I don't know. If that really bothers you, maybe that's exactly where you should be. If that's the thing, if that's your weakness and that's where somebody calls you out and you immediately freeze and you immediately recoil and go into this behavior of a non-healthy behavior, like you just shrink. If somebody were to call you out or tell you that — maybe even it's giving you — I've seen people do this a lot, where you're giving them or someone is giving them constructive criticism actually trying to help. They just freeze, shut down, and actually shrink.

Matt Lawson: Well, yeah. And that's a great point. We saw a lot of things go through the Kokoro camp. When you're up for fifty-plus hours straight with no sleep and you're doing all these activities, or they refer to them as evolutions, you're going to see a lot of stuff. Your body does a lot of things that I never thought it would do from a breaking-down standpoint, not in a bad way, but just an adjustment standpoint. But, yes, people being called out for accountability things and their attitudes changing and really the coaches getting under their skin immediately, and then the person physically looking perfect. A great specimen, obviously, put all the work in physically, but mentally wasn't there and they quit.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And it's —

Matt Lawson: Because you got called out because you didn't do your air squat past parallel, and you're going to really get upset and quit.

Tom Rowland: Are you kidding me? But it happens. Thirty-six hours in.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. Sometimes. It happens. People quit thirty minutes before you finish.

Tom Rowland: We found in my class that the most people quit within the first two hours. And then there was probably another little rash in about twenty hours in. And then once people made it past that, we became, just like you were mentioning earlier, we bonded together as a team and there was going to be absolutely nothing that would stop us. And actually, at that point, I think the coaches have to be careful that they don't kill somebody because we would have done anything. And if someone went down, which we had a couple people — two people in my class that were hurt — they physically wanted to continue and we said, you're not quitting. And we carried those people, literally physically carried them everywhere we went. And what they could do, they would do. When we went into the ocean, they went into the ocean, but our class just pulled together and actually carried those people right through, physically carried them.

Matt Lawson: I think that just shows a tremendous amount of grit and determination. And didn't you have one of the guys in your class that had a torn ACL —

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That made it through. He's one of the people that we were carrying.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. Sure. I mean, that's awesome.

No One Does It Alone: The Log PT Lesson

Tom Rowland: I mean, those moments are really cool to be part of, but what that did for me, and I think what it did for a lot of people in our class, it had a really major impact on me because of this background of being an individual athlete and thinking, especially as a fishing guide too, thinking I can do anything by myself. I don't need anyone. I'm going to put in the work. I have enough discipline. I am going to do all these things. And you know what? That's true to a large extent.

Matt Lawson: Sure.

Tom Rowland: But what was massively transformative for me was to go there and realize, okay, first of all, I think I might be the second oldest one here. And then they did this thing where they invited all of these CrossFit Games athletes. So we had a bunch.

Matt Lawson: You did. You had a —

Tom Rowland: Super high-level athletes, including Kenny Leverich was there. We had Becca Voigt, who is an eight-time CrossFit Games competitor, Katie Hogan, and others that I'm not even remembering right now. But even those three, I'm nowhere nearly as physically capable as Becca or Katie. Like, those female athletes can just about do anything that I can do, better. Like, they're stronger. They're amazing. They're unbelievable. So I get there and I'm kind of like, wow. Not only am I not one of the better people here, I think I might be the worst. Like, I know that I put in the work, but no amount of work that I put in is going to make me a Kenny Leverich. So that was the first clue. Like, wow, I'm going to need some help to be able to do what they can do. Like, I don't know what we're about to do, but if I'm supposed to measure up to him, this is going to be really, really hard. Right?

Matt Lawson: Well, it's like the log PT work. I mean, it's pretty simple. There's no way you can pick up that log and move it 500 yards by yourself, or you're walking lunging with that.

Tom Rowland: That's a perfect example. And there's no way that five people on that log can move it without all five of them doing the work. Not only just doing the work, but doing it all at the same time.

Matt Lawson: Exactly.

Tom Rowland: In the proper movements exactly at the proper time. And the thing sails up and it's not that heavy and nobody gets hurt. So I took that and I learned that immediately by being beat over the head for fifty hours that no matter how good you are, Kenny Leverich or any of these other athletes cannot move that log 15 miles down the beach without a bulldozer.

Matt Lawson: It's hard to go to that next level without having a good team.

Applying "Who Is My Team?" to Family and Business

Tom Rowland: Well, I learned that the hard way. And then when I graduated Kokoro, I came back into my life and I'm realizing, wow, this can be applied to every area of my life. Okay? So starting with the most simple example, who is my team? My team is my family. Right? And so I can lead this family. I can go out and I can make money. I can make the decisions for the family. I can pay attention to the finances. I can do what I think a man's responsibilities are for my family, and they can just trail along behind me. Or we can come together as a team and discuss these things and have each one of these team members contribute to what we're trying to do. We all get on the same page, and we are an unstoppable team.

Matt Lawson: Far more successful. No doubt.

Tom Rowland: You can take it into your business. I can be a business leader and say, we're doing this, and you do that, you do that, and everybody report to me at the end of the day. And that's one way of leading. The other way of leading is to get everyone to understand what it is that we're trying to do, why we're trying to do it —

Matt Lawson: What their roles are.

Tom Rowland: What their roles are, how they can contribute in a way that no one else can. And this thing that we're trying to accomplish means this to the world, to you, to me, to the viewers, to whoever it is that we're talking about, and get the team on board, and things start happening. Things start happening at a monumental level that are not going to be accomplished individually. That was the biggest lesson that I learned, and that was the biggest take-home. I'd like to know if you felt that or if there was something else that you took away from it.

Matt Lawson: I did. I definitely felt that. I guess how I would frame that, or one way I would say it, would be it's something bigger than myself at the end of the day. And also, another big takeaway is having that strong why. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Like starting that journey back in May '13, why am I doing Kokoro? Why am I going down this path? And it was really for our family, our son being born. And then also for myself just to get back in shape, and I wanted something totally different.

Matt Lawson: The SealFit experience from 20X to Kokoro was a thousand times better than what I originally thought it was going to be. I would recommend it to anyone, but there are so many takeaways that I have from that whole experience at Kokoro that I think about daily or every other day. And I do a lot of journaling as well. Immediately after Kokoro, you don't remember everything. But as time goes on, you start remembering just about everything, 90% plus of what happened at Kokoro and all the lessons. And the coaches along the way, they're also teaching lessons as we're doing things. And, you know, we never made our time. We never made our times. And we were all —

Tom Rowland: When you say you never made your time, they say you've got to get to the end of the beach in forty-two minutes and carry all this stuff with you. And you get there, and somehow it just happens to be 43.

Matt Lawson: Always. Yeah. Always. And it pays to be a winner. There's so many sayings and things that they had, but it's so true. And when you're going through that experience at Kokoro, it's so true that Mark Divine says they strip you to your core, and you are. I mean, you are stripped down. You just got your t-shirt on, your BDUs on, your boots on, and that's it. And you're doing amazing things with amazing people around you as a team and moving forward. And I think that's what kind of blew me away in a sense. Whether it's 4:00 in the morning or you're thirty-six hours into it and you're hallucinating or whatever it is, we're all capable of so much more. And if we can include others in that process and we're all buying into it and we all have that strong why, then we're really unstoppable. And I think that's what coach Mark Divine has brought in more than anything from the SEAL teams — that's one of the many things that makes them so unique and so elite and special, is that they come together as one and move as one. And that's unstoppable.

Tom Rowland: And it becomes exponential. Their intelligence becomes exponential. Their potential becomes exponential. Everything, as they are such a tight group like that.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. It is very unselfish. Very unselfish in sharing information back and forth, but, yes, you're right.

Three Takeaways to Live By

Tom Rowland: So if you could come up with three things that you learned from this period of your life that you brought back to your business, your family, and you could write those down to hand to somebody, what would they be?

Matt Lawson: I would say leadership by doing and not talking, but more action. I would say focusing on others as opposed to myself first. And just never quitting, never giving up, keep moving forward. Have a positive attitude and keep moving forward. And if it's hard, if it's tough, it's going to pass. And so just keep moving forward no matter what. I think having a silver-lining mentality, changing your mindset and doing things — not sticking your head in the sand in a sense, but there's something positive we can take from every experience. And so that was one big thing at Kokoro. As hard as it was — it's extremely difficult, there's no doubt about it, it's fifty hours plus, no sleep, surf torture, all that and beyond — but it's staying present.

Matt Lawson: And I think that's a big takeaway. Another thing that I would give advice to someone is trying to stay as present as possible and not really focusing so much on what happened ten minutes ago or thirty minutes ago or two days ago with all that crazy chatter in your head, or worrying about what might happen and sucking all that energy from you. Because when you're there at Kokoro and you're five hours in or two hours in, I think that's what gets a lot of the people, is just that. It's like, oh my gosh, the intensity is crazy. And if it's tough now, I can't see myself making it ten hours or fifty hours, much less three days. And I think that's what sucks a lot of people out — moving into it as opposed to just doing what's in front of you now.

Tom Rowland: But everything that we're talking about and everything that you've just explained from that camp is basically that camp is a microcosm of life.

Matt Lawson: Absolutely.

Tom Rowland: It's far more intense at times. I mean, life could be pretty intense too.

Matt Lawson: No doubt. No doubt.

Tom Rowland: And maybe the only thing that's easy about a camp like Kokoro or GORUCK selection is that you are being forced to make these decisions. You are being forced to have a good attitude because if you don't, there are serious repercussions that are going to happen in the next ten seconds. That's not necessarily the case in life. It might happen two days later. There's this bigger lag time between — if you have a poor attitude today, that may be reflected in two or three days. Right? So it's easier to understand the importance of things like attitude, of things like taking care of your body, things like being a great team when you're in that environment. How are you doing it on a daily basis to take those things that you just wrote down and handed somebody as advice? How are you keeping those in the forefront of your day every day?

The Daily Ritual: Journaling, Meditation, and Box Breathing

Matt Lawson: I'm trying to live that every day, I guess. So I'm pretty disciplined, maybe not as disciplined as some other people, but I would say on average I'm maybe above average on the discipline side. So I have a morning routine or a morning ritual that I do.

Tom Rowland: What is that?

Matt Lawson: I journal every morning. I also go through a ten-minute or twenty-minute meditation session every morning. I do some box breathing to try to center myself and focus and kind of visualize where I want to be, what I want to do today, how can I get better. I'm always striving. I've taken this from Brad McLeod — always trying to get better at 1% improvement every day in some area, and then looking back at the end of the day to see it, looking at the things that went well and building on those. And then, of course, on the physical side, I'm trying to do a twenty-minute to forty-five-minute workout every day, six days a week. Usually take a Sunday off and maybe still do something outside. But those are some ways that I try to incorporate that. And through that morning ritual, then that kind of sets me up for the rest of the day so that I'm following through.

Tom Rowland: Well, in your journaling, what are you writing in your journal every day?

Matt Lawson: That's a good question. I do write down things that I'm grateful for, things that I'm looking forward to doing, what I'm excited about doing, what my purpose is, more on the self-mastery side, which is a constant battle. And then how can I help others? What am I doing to help other people? I think that's a core of SealFit — self-mastery and service. And then what am I doing on a daily basis to move myself closer to my purpose?

Tom Rowland: And you have that purpose. You have spent some time to come up with that purpose, and you have that clearly in place.

Matt Lawson: I do. Well, I feel like I do. I think as we move forward, things are always shifting and growing in that nature, but I do, and it's changed since I began the process. I started the journaling in '13 at the Unbeatable Mind with SealFit, and that has just been a very positive habit that I've been doing every day. And so it doesn't take too long, five minutes, maybe ten minutes of journaling, and then moving from there. But I think it's been very beneficial for me. If anyone has a monkey mind, I do. And so I try to center that monkey mind and calm that down and be more responsive as opposed to reactive. I have a tendency to be very reactive, and that's just not always a good thing. And so how can I be calm and responsive as opposed to irrational and reactive? And so those were good things through the Unbeatable Mind and then all the way through 20X and being present and then Kokoro. That's a long process. Kokoro was a long ramp for me, I would say. I can't speak to anyone else on that. Some people are in different spots, of course. But even me being able to come down there and work at your place at the RRL, that was phenomenal because awesome people down there, great workouts, very intense, very challenging. That prepped me for Kokoro as well. And then even showing up wearing my boots — and as silly as that looks, that's very important in that Kokoro training.

Train Like You Fight: Preparation Is Everything

Tom Rowland: No, that's — you fight like you train. When I got started getting ready for Kokoro, I wore boots and pants and the black belt and the T-shirt, the cotton T-shirt — not just the regular. I don't wear a cotton T-shirt when I work out, but I figured, man, if I'm going to wear this for fifty hours, might as well work out all the kinks. And so, again, this whole process is exactly like what you do for life. If you are getting ready for a sales seminar, and you're going to have to get up in front of a whole bunch of people, and you're going to have to talk — well, do you want to practice that in your pajamas in front of the mirror in front of no one? And then you're going to put on a suit, and the shirt's a little too small, and you're not comfortable with it, and now you're going to have to go through this whole deal in something that you're unpracticed. Like, everything you do should be practiced as if you're going to do it that day.

Tom Rowland: And make the small changes — if the collar on your shirt's too small and it is causing you to be super uncomfortable, then you need a different shirt. Well, when's the time to find that out? Not during the presentation. It's three months ahead of time so you get the right thing. These small little tiny details are what I learned also about preparing for Kokoro and preparing for selection — that you've got to do it exactly like you've got to do it at the event. You've got to have your boots broken in so they're not going to cause you any problems. We saw lots of problems with that. I couldn't believe people showed up with boots that weren't broken in, but they did. One guy showed up with steel-toe boots.

Matt Lawson: That's impressive.

Tom Rowland: Which is just incredible. I mean, I ran hundreds and hundreds of miles and rucked hundreds of miles in my boots and then put them aside because they were perfect and then trained in another pair of shoes. But I find that, you know, you're saying you think about this every single day. I do too, and we've talked to so many other people, either from our classes or from other classes, that say the same thing — that there's not a day goes by that they do not think in some way, shape, or form about this experience.

Tom Rowland: And I think that there are probably plenty of other experiences that can have this type of an impact on people. Maybe a thirty-day silent yoga retreat might — I mean, I don't know. You want to talk about getting out of my comfort zone. That would be way out of my comfort zone.

Matt Lawson: That would be cool. But —

Tom Rowland: I'm sure that you would encounter some demons there.

Matt Lawson: Oh, no doubt.

Tom Rowland: And there's going to be some places where you're going to open some doors in your mind that you didn't know existed. Whatever it is, the most important thing is that it's far out of your comfort zone. The most important thing is that there is some discipline required to do it, and you and I found that this was a perfect thing for us. I don't know if this is a perfect thing for everybody. It may not be, but what is important is that I think a lot of people our age — and I'm talking about our age being anything between 35 and 50 — you have done pretty well. Things are good. You're comfortable. You don't have to do more, but you choose to do more. You choose to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation to see how you're going to react.

Tom Rowland: And if that's all there is in this particular event — of I just want to see how I'm going to react — I'm going to tell you how you're going to react: you're going to quit. It has to be more, and you have to dig deep, and it gives you an opportunity to go and journal and look and say, what is my purpose? And why am I here? And what is it that I'm trying to do? And then put that to the test, because forty-two hours into Kokoro, you are going to find that either that's really super important to you or you didn't make it forty-two hours. That's the other thing.

Matt Lawson: Absolutely. And doing that — like forty-two hours, thirty-six hours, and it's a fifty-hour-plus event — your mind does crazy things. And coach Divine said over and over before we started, if you can't get control of your mind, if you don't get control of your mind, you won't be here. It's not your body so much. That's the problem. Your problem is your mind. So you better be able to control it and silence that negative chatter, or just chatter period, and move forward. I know prior to Kokoro, though, Tom, I immersed myself. I mean, obsessed, because I read as much as I possibly could about Kokoro. Everything out there, I think I read. Your blog that you had — we talked about it — but you were awesome that you did not tell me exactly what was going to happen, and I thank you for that because I think everyone should experience that because it takes a lot away. But I read all the books. I mean, Tom, as far as SEAL-related books on BUD/S and stuff, I've read countless. From Fearless, and they were all — I got so much from those books, and I have so much respect for everyone that serves or who has served. And it's amazing what they've done.

Discovering Respect for the SEAL Teams

Tom Rowland: Well, that's interesting because that's another thing that I find super interesting about Kokoro, 20X, GORUCK events, GORUCK selection, GORUCK challenges, GORUCK Tough. These are both organizations run by former special forces people, SEALs or Green Berets. I didn't fully appreciate the Navy SEALs, the Green Berets, the Army Rangers when I was in high school. When it was time for me to have made that decision, it wasn't even on the radar. It wasn't even a possibility for me to think I'm going to the navy. That just wasn't there. I mean, first of all, it was peacetime. Right? Major peacetime. It had been peacetime for a long time.

Tom Rowland: So I remember there was, like, one guy in my high school class that thought he might go to the Marines. Okay? One guy. But there wasn't this sense of necessary service for whatever reason. I think it probably was peacetime. There was not a lot going on. So the navy or the army or the marines or the air force was an option that was out there, but it just wasn't on my radar. And so, therefore, I didn't read these books, and I wasn't exposed to these people, and I didn't know how truly amazing that life can be. And I didn't understand how truly elite each one of those individuals was or is — as an athlete, as a scholar, as a mental magician, really, in their own mind and how to manipulate other people's minds, for both the positive and the negative. But that just wasn't on my radar.

Tom Rowland: So I didn't learn about any of this stuff or really achieve any appreciation for it until really 9/11. And then at 9/11, I started thinking, man, look at what these guys are doing. You're watching TV. You become more aware of it. Then I start reading some different books. Then there's the Marcus Luttrell incident that happened that really, I'm going to say, brought a lot of this more to the forefront of my attention.

Matt Lawson: There's no doubt. Same here. I mean, Lone Survivor. But Lieutenant Michael —

Tom Rowland: Murphy. Michael Murphy. Yep.

Matt Lawson: No doubt. No doubt.

Tom Rowland: Front and center. There are a couple of different things there that became more of a focus because of 9/11, because of this Operation Red Wings that went bad. And if you don't know about that, you need to read Marcus Luttrell's book, Lone Survivor, as well as many other books that are out about it now. But that had a big impact. And then, you know, CrossFit — I got into doing CrossFit, and one of their very first hero workouts was Murph, and that was Michael Murphy. And there on the workout, it tells you the story and then encourages you to find out more about the story. And then Marcus Luttrell's book comes out and it becomes more and more on the radar. So here's an opportunity where you're thinking, man, that sounds really amazing. Look at what these people can do with their bodies and their minds and look at the amount of training that we're getting. Wouldn't it be cool? Because now I'm 45 years old. There's no possibility. I mean, they wouldn't even allow someone to go in at my age. But wouldn't it be cool if you could experience that? Right?

Tom Rowland: And so there are all kinds of little camps where you can go and put on the uniform and pretend like you're so-and-so. This isn't one of those. This is actually a snapshot out of Hell Week, and I'll be the first one to say that I don't know what goes on in the real Hell Week because I've never been to one and I never will go to one. But from the people — and maybe they're blowing smoke or treating us kindly — they're saying it's pretty close. So whatever. It doesn't matter if it's close. I've said that before on this podcast — it doesn't matter how similar this is to Hell Week or how dissimilar it is to Hell Week or if it even has any remote comparison. The fact is that you signed up to get challenged, and they challenged you to the core and way beyond. Right?

Tom Rowland: But I just think that's kind of cool that at a later stage in your life, maybe you didn't know about it, maybe you didn't respect it, maybe you didn't understand it, maybe it wasn't an opportunity, or maybe it was a missed opportunity. But you have that opportunity now to go back and experience it, really, and to get training from these types of people. And I think that's cool with anything. I mean, you have somebody else like a Laird Hamilton now that has XPT training with Gabby Reece. And Laird Hamilton knows an amazing amount of stuff about the human body and about mental toughness and about achieving things that you didn't know that you could achieve by riding a hundred-foot wave. And creating all of these — I mean, Laird Hamilton is a really interesting guy. He has created so many products.

Matt Lawson: Doesn't he have, like, a golf product as a surfer?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's called the GolfBoard, and it's like a giant skateboard that rides on big wheels, and it's fun.

Matt Lawson: So instead of in the golf cart.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You ride on this thing. It's a little more physical. You get a little more activity. You're able to go anywhere on the course because the thing's so light. I mean, I don't think you can put it on the green, but a lot of places are getting these things. And it's kind of like surfing, and a lot of people are like, this is way more fun. But he invented something like that. He gets back on the stand-up paddleboard and starts surfing on one of those things. And actually, that was something that was not thought of. People had forgotten about the stand-up paddleboard, and he brings it back. And now there's this whole industry —

Matt Lawson: It's crazy.

Tom Rowland: As you can hear. People fish on it — we fish on it on the show. It's amazing. But the point being is that people like him, people like Mark Divine, have these things that are set up. So whatever you're into, you could probably — you could be into computer coding, and there's probably the best guy in the world who probably has a camp you could go to.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. And that's originally where coach Mark Divine originally established SealFit — from what I understand and what I've read about it, is to increase the graduation rate, get people through Hell Week as opposed to having an 80%-plus attrition rate. How can we lower that attrition rate? So he was kind of working with the navy, feeding them, how can we lower that?

Tom Rowland: He expected that this camp would be full of nothing but 18-, 19-, 20-year-old people who are on their way to the teams.

Matt Lawson: Absolutely. And like in my class, my Kokoro Class 40, we had three guys that had contracts. And from the last time I'm aware or checked, there was one guy that, from all I know, he's made it, and that's awesome.

Tom Rowland: We only had one guy that was planning on going. He didn't have a contract, but he was planning on going. And I don't know if he's made it or not.

Matt Lawson: And my hat's off to the guy that actually, for 100%, made it all the way through — phenomenal guy. Phenomenal guy. I mean, just a great, great guy. 17 years old at the time, I think. 17, 18 years old. But he wasn't the strongest and he wasn't the fastest, but he was just solid. But one takeaway from him is his attitude. His mental attitude was off the charts positive.

Tom Rowland: Well, and that's just like life. You don't have to be the smartest. You don't have to be the fastest. You don't have to be the richest. You don't have to be the best leader. What you have to be able to do is to be pretty good at all of those things and then to be able to pull it all together to really achieve some success.

Matt Lawson: I think what coach Divine has done with SealFit and pulling all this together and then the talent that he's attracted with all the coaches is phenomenal.

Derek Price and the Power of Humor

Tom Rowland: You know what's funny — what I really liked about Kokoro and 20X and all that too is it's really funny. Like Derek Price is a funny dude. And you can't even really imagine how this goes, but imagine yourself at 3:00 in the morning. You're on the beach and you've been in the Pacific Ocean. You're freezing cold. Your teeth are chattering. And there's a former NFL player and many Navy SEALs, and they are ridiculing you to the point of really laughing hysterically because of the way that they're doing it.

Matt Lawson: It is. We outside looking in — no doubt. And Derek Price, I think he completed Kokoro twice.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I don't know about twice, but I know he did once. And he is a phenomenal leader, flow master, I guess you would call him.

Matt Lawson: He's so quick-witted. I mean, the things he comes up with on the fly, amazing. He's a great dude.

Tom Rowland: He is. He's a great dude. He's so funny. When I was coaching the 20X that we had around here — say coaching, I was a black shirt. Derek Price was the coach. Brad McLeod was the coach. I'm there just kind of getting ice for the buckets and watching how this thing all goes down.

Matt Lawson: That's what I did, Tom.

Tom Rowland: And we had some members of our group there. Clay Watson went through it. Jordan Gallup went through it. My son Turner went through that one. And I remember one thing so clearly. They were doing burpees or push-ups and trying to do all these things, and they'll tell you, get on your back, get on your belly, get on your back, get on your belly. And, of course, they're telling you to do this in the middle of doing it. They're telling you to do the other way. So no matter what you're doing or how athletic you are, you look like a complete spaz. And all of a sudden, I hear him go, "Gallup, you were cut from every high school sports team you ever signed up for."

Matt Lawson: I mean, Derek is so good. And he's brutal. And he's relentless. He's so funny. But he's a great person. But, yeah, when he's on in that coaching role, it's unbelievable.

Tom Rowland: And he's doing it through a megaphone too, which is all the better.

Matt Lawson: He is definitely an asset. Oh, he's hilarious. And so I definitely enjoyed watching it as opposed to having to be the participant.

Tom Rowland: You know, I don't know who said it — I think it might have been Greg Glassman — but he said men are bound together with sweat and humor better than any other way. And I like that. It's funny because it starts out with sweat and then it's humor. Right? So that's what we do when we're in our group. There's a lot of challenging workouts, and there's a lot of training that is truly challenging. And a lot of times, just in your own driveway, you can beat all the demons you want to in your head, and you want to quit. And sometimes those are the most difficult times, when you're by yourself, when you're realizing, man, I've worked out every day this week. I probably don't have to do this today.

Matt Lawson: I'm a little sore here. Then maybe I could just take a day off.

Tom Rowland: Even be better if I didn't do it. Right? So you encounter that all the time.

Matt Lawson: Really don't want to get up. It's 5:00 in the morning. It's a little raining outside. Should probably get up. But that's the best after you do it.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And then to find yourself in a group of other people that have a ruthless wit as well. And I just love that. I just think it's so fun to get in with those people. We're lucky enough to have created this group. And if you can't make it every day, there is an email that goes out that will also have a ruthless wit attached to it.

Matt Lawson: It's unbelievable. It is crazy. It is funny. It's very funny. So it actually brightens the day sometimes.

The Book Club

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So one of the things also that we've done — we've talked about how do you keep these themes in the forefront of your mind and how do you bring your family together as a team, how do you bring your business together as a team, how do you do all of these things especially years after going through this crucible experience of Kokoro? One of the things that we've done is started this book club. And you and me and four or five other people have been reading these books, chosen specifically to keep these themes in mind. And so I've got the whole list. And we started this, and really, anybody could do this. You find a couple of people that you like to talk to, and you just say, hey, let's meet for coffee for thirty minutes every two weeks, or you could talk on the phone. You could have a conference call. You could do anything. It could be your college buddies. It could be any way. And let's pick some of these books that we hear about, and some are awesome. Some are life-changing. Some, not so much. Right?

Tom Rowland: But so we decided we were going to put this little group together, and it really requires almost no time. I read way more this way, and mostly most of mine is audiobooks, either while I'm driving, while I'm running, while I'm doing something else — what has been referred to as NET time. No extra time. Right? So I'm out working in the yard. I'm out working on my boat. I'm out changing the oil. I'm out doing whatever I've got to do, listening to this. Going running, going on a five-mile run — you've got something to listen to, better than music.

Tom Rowland: So since starting, we have read Secrets of the Millionaire Mind, Relentless, The Power of Positive Thinking, The 10X Rule, Ego Is the Enemy, The Road Less Traveled, Mindset by Carol Dweck, which definitely needs to go right on the top of anyone's list, especially if you have children. Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin, also top of the list for anyone, in my opinion. The One Thing, On Fire, The Obstacle Is the Way, The Rise of Superman, The School of Greatness, Open, the autobiography of Andre Agassi, Small Giants, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, The Forgotten Highlander, Never Split the Difference, Start with Why, Fishing for Happiness, Stealing Fire, Daring Greatly, Disrupt You by Jay Samit, also one of my favorites, The Oxygen Advantage, Chasing Excellence by Ben Bergeron, another one especially if you're into CrossFit, The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. Don Miguel Ruiz — that was an excellent one. We read Elon Musk's book, Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future.

Tom Rowland: We read The Shack, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years by Donald Miller, The Carpenter, The Stand, The Ultramind Solution, Perceptual Intelligence, Legacy: The Story of the All Blacks, The Untethered Soul, Hillbilly Elegy, and The Art of Learning. So of that list, which ones stand out to you?

Matt Lawson: You know, I think Relentless is one that stands out. That's a big one.

Tom Rowland: That's by Tim Grover, and Relentless is a story told by this gentleman who ended up being the trainer for Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and many others.

Matt Lawson: I think Wade is one.

Tom Rowland: But his story of how he steps into this role of trying to get Michael Jordan to be better when he's already at his peak —

Matt Lawson: When he's the best of the best.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. He was already the best.

Matt Lawson: Crazy. Crazy.

Tom Rowland: And so his first thought was, he'll never want to talk to me. He's already the best. But what he found out was that the best is the most open to being better. Yeah. So it spoke volumes about Michael Jordan's attitude and about why. I mean, you pretty much immediately saw why he was the best at what he did because he had a relentless — just like the book title, he was relentless in trying to get, probably at his level, he's looking at 0.003% better.

Matt Lawson: Because — that edge.

Tom Rowland: 1% better for Michael Jordan is like as good as a high school basketball player right now. Like, so can he get 0.000003% better?

Matt Lawson: That'd be bad.

Tom Rowland: And so he puts his faith in this guy. And you know what? He actually did it.

Matt Lawson: You know, Extreme Ownership is another. I know you mentioned it, but it's another great book that we can apply — business, family. I mean, that's one that's still on my nightstand that I'll reread.

Tom Rowland: If it makes any difference, that's my most gifted book this year.

Matt Lawson: Okay.

Tom Rowland: I have given that to my nephew. I've given that to a number of people. However, the most profound book that I've laid on anyone where I've actually seen it change the way that they do almost everything — Extreme Ownership is definitely one of those, but this book called Never Split the Difference.

Matt Lawson: Oh, that's a great one. That was a great one too, on the FBI negotiator.

Tom Rowland: I mean, there are five or six on this list that really, really stand out. That's definitely one of them. Never Split the Difference is a — he's a former FBI hostage negotiator that is retired and now wrote a book on it. And his book is amazing. I would definitely recommend that one. I also like, for busy people, The One Thing. That was a good one. It's Gary Keller.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. That was a really good one. The focus, in a sense, on the one thing. Yeah. That was a good one.

Tom Rowland: That's where your journaling can come in. In my own journaling, I kind of look at that, and I write down a few things that I want to get done today. And then his book is all about what is the one thing that you can do right now that will make everything else — how did he put it? He said it'll make everything else either unnecessary or something. What — basically, look at the things that are on your radar right now. Which one can you pick that's going to move the needle the best or make everything else unnecessary?

Matt Lawson: That's right.

Tom Rowland: And I like that a lot. Like, if we do this, look at all these things that we don't have to do.

Matt Lawson: And I'm guilty of this as well, and I'm always trying to improve on this, but all the busy work. The things that you think you have to do, but it doesn't really move the needle. But we convince ourselves that it really kind of moves the needle, but at the end of the day, it doesn't move the needle. And so whether that's at work or having a real direct conversation or a conversation with your family at home — just, as opposed to being there present but really engaging and moving the needle that way. But at work, how often do we all go through the process of getting caught up in busy work as opposed to focusing on something we really know that moves that needle? That may be a little uncomfortable, but we know we're going to get the best reward by focusing on that one thing that's a little uncomfortable.

Tom Rowland: And it's also the old adage of which hat are you wearing. Are you wearing the $8 hat, the $80 hat, or the $800 hat? And there's somebody else that can do the work of the $8 hat. There's somebody else that can probably do the work of the $80 hat, but only you are the one that is able to do the work where you're wearing this hat that would make you $800. And that's an interesting way to think.

Tom Rowland: So do you give books to people?

Matt Lawson: You know, I have, actually.

Tom Rowland: What's your most gifted?

Matt Lawson: Tom, I have given Extreme Ownership. I've gifted that book quite a bit. I've ordered The Art of Learning, so I've got that coming. So those two —

Tom Rowland: To give that away.

Matt Lawson: To give that away.

The Art of Learning: Josh Waitzkin

Tom Rowland: And The Art of Learning, that's an interesting one to talk about because that's the one that's on our list right now. I haven't read it, so you know way more about it. I've read about half of it. And this is Josh Waitzkin. And Josh Waitzkin was — he hates the term chess prodigy, but he was, by definition, a chess prodigy. He was killing people in the park, playing chess in the New York parks, which if you know anything about that scene, very competitive, kind of street hustlers playing chess. And some really amazingly intelligent people are there. And this little six-year-old kid comes and wipes the table with all of them.

Matt Lawson: That's right.

Tom Rowland: Wipes the table with them, with help from them. Like, they became kind of his mentors and coaches, and he listened. Right? Like, how'd you do that? And then they'll tell him, but they might not tell everybody. Because they know this kid's not here hustling money from them. So they're teaching him these little secrets. Then he goes and gets some formal training, but never forgets the street-hustler side of chess. Then after winning major championships, including a world title — right — he gets a little burned out and decides to embark on a martial arts career. And he finds tai chi, which is the very slow martial art that you see old people doing in the park. And it is supposed to be a tremendous way to clear your head, stop the monkey-mind chatter that we've talked about already. But I guess — and I'm speaking out, I don't know what I'm talking about when I say this — but I guess that there is a further realm of tai chi, which is actually martial arts where you don't move so slowly and you actually fight. And it's called push hands.

Matt Lawson: Push hands. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And so, anyway, Josh Waitzkin goes and learns this amazingly quickly and becomes a world champion.

Matt Lawson: A couple years, becomes a world champion, and it just takes a lot of that stuff that he learned from chess over to the tai chi and then excelled at the tai chi. And it's just amazing — his journey and his concentration and the things that he had to overcome on the chess side, and the different styles and the people trying to put him in different boxes, and then him really having to find his own internal demons on the chess side to excel. Another book, though, Tom, that I like a lot is also Fearless.

Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah.

Matt Lawson: From Adam Brown. That's what I've given out in the past. I read that one years ago on the journey to Kokoro, but Adam Brown's story is unbelievable. It is crazy. I talk about it quite a bit. I talked to my brother about it the other day. It's hard for any of us to have an excuse when you read his book.

Adam Brown's Story: Adapt and Overcome

Tom Rowland: I know.

Matt Lawson: That guy's life and what he did and what he overcame, are you kidding me? It's unbelievable. And then the level that he achieved inside the teams, making it all the way to SEAL Team Six and his — the hand issue, the eye issue.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You know, when you're saying all of this — this hand issue that you're talking about — that's one of the things that when I think about that book, I think about it immediately, and doing something as simple as a SealFit Kokoro and then reading a lot of these books and learning just a small amount about what the Navy SEALs are about — because I don't think you're going to truly know what a Navy SEAL is really like until you are immersed in that culture, until you are actually one of those people. And it's a very, very small group that I'm never going to be part of. But I can learn a little bit about it, and I can appreciate it. And when you are around some of these people, you realize the training that they've done over really a lifetime. And the amount that they are shooting is just absolutely incredible. They are on the range just shooting, and they could shoot the wings off a mosquito.

Tom Rowland: It's crazy, isn't it? And then to think about, like, in this particular book, you have all of these candidates that are within a fraction of a percentage of one another. And only the ones that are the very best, the most consistently, are going to make it to the next stage. And so Adam Brown — I can't remember exactly how this happened, but he hurt his hand.

Matt Lawson: He was in a Humvee, and it flipped and it crushed his hand, and it crushed his dominant hand, his right hand. I mean, that is amazing. And he had that reconstructive surgery on his entire hand.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And this is at the time when he is — correct me if I'm wrong, but it's been a while since I read that book — but he's getting ready to go to Green Team.

Matt Lawson: Yes. And I think he's already made it through sniper. I don't want to give the book away totally, but the eye issue was phenomenal, but you're right. He's on his way to Green Team. And that's the issue.

Tom Rowland: And so perfectly healthy individuals are going through this, perfectly trained, having shot thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds with their right hand, with their right eye dominant, and there are fractions of a percentage point away from one another, and only the very, very, very best make it to this next level of the SEALs. And it was called Green Team in this book. He hurts his hand and has to learn how to shoot with his left hand —

Matt Lawson: It's crazy.

Tom Rowland: And compete at that level.

Matt Lawson: It's — I mean —

Tom Rowland: That is like Michael Phelps winning these gold medals and then finding out that he could never swim with his arms again. And he would just have to do it with his legs and go win some more medals.

Matt Lawson: I am so thankful that we have people that are serving this country in the military that have that type of commitment. I mean, it's crazy.

Tom Rowland: With that type of commitment, but also — what you get out of that, or what I got out of that, was here's this situation where he says, okay, I can't do it that way. So how can I do it? I can teach myself how to shoot left-handed and compete with the best pistol shooters, literally the best pistol shooters in the world.

Matt Lawson: Kind of a gross understatement of adapt and overcome. Wow. I mean, it's —

Tom Rowland: And also that there is no — "can't" is not a word, and that's what we learned in Kokoro. And it drove my family crazy when I came home from Kokoro, and that was my new mantra. "Can't" is not a word.

Matt Lawson: I say the same thing to our daughter, and it drives her crazy. It drives her crazy. But you're seeing someone like Adam Brown who ended up giving his life, being killed in the war. And what he was able to do — even early on in the journey to even getting into the navy was a phenomenal road, and the things that he had to overcome just to get there were unimaginable. And then getting there and making it through BUD/S and graduating and joining a team, I mean, just crazy. It just shows you the commitment and the determination, the will, the strength. And, again, 90% of it's mental.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And keeping the why close. He had a real why. So if you haven't read that book, you definitely need to put that on your list as well as so many of these other ones. And I'll put this list in the show notes for this show, and you could join our book club.

Matt Lawson: You know, another one, Rogue Warrior is another good one too. I've read so many of those, so many books that I got a lot from, that I learned a lot. They're phenomenal books. Eric Greitens is another one, who is the governor now in Missouri, and he has a couple of books. And I've read his, and his are phenomenal too. And David Rutherford —

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Matt Lawson: Who's a Navy SEAL, has a couple of really good books.

Tom Rowland: Rutherford has a podcast too, with Marcus Luttrell, I think. Isn't he on that Team Never Quit? Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's one of those hosts. And if he's not, I apologize.

Matt Lawson: An amazing story. I mean, a lot of those guys, even Marcus Luttrell, his story is phenomenal. Of course, just getting to BUD/S —

Tom Rowland: Well, you're going to find that every story of an active-duty SEAL that is achieving success is going to be an incredible story because the odds of making it are so high and stacked against anyone from doing it. I mean, there's injury, there's illness, there's so many things that happen along the way that it is literally like winning an Olympic medal.

Matt Lawson: Yeah. Like, it's extremely elite, elite, elite. And one takeaway from their books, and even listening to coach Divine or Brad McLeod — they're always learning. Those guys are always learning. They're never satisfied where they are. They're always getting out of their comfort zones. If you even look at the things Brad McLeod's doing now on the 350-mile bike ride nonstop, rain, no sleep — I mean, just crazy things, but we're all capable of doing it, and they're always pushing themselves way out of those comfort zones. And I admire that tremendously.

What's Next: Getting Out of the Comfort Zone

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So that brings me to this. What's next for you? How do you get out of the comfort zone?

Matt Lawson: I'm like in a cocoon right now. I don't have any event on the horizon right now. I don't, Tom. I mean, I hate to say that. I'm reading more, but that's not really pushing me out of my comfort zone. It's good, and I really enjoy that. But I've really got to get something on the calendar. I know we're trying to grow our business here, and we're doing some uncomfortable things, but that's —

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's the other thing that sometimes I miss personally, is that getting out of your comfort zone does not have to be a physical pursuit. And in fact, as I look at it, these extreme physical things are actually quite within my comfort zone. Like, if you told me, okay, you've got to go do Kokoro again, I'd be like, great. I know exactly how to train for it. Everything's going to be good. It's going to be a lot of hard work, but I know I can do it. No problem. Right? That's comfort. You tell me you're going to have to go do a thirty-day silent retreat — that is not.

Matt Lawson: So interesting. Even a ten-day.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Or anything. One day. Can you imagine not talking for a whole day? It might be great. My family would love it.

Matt Lawson: Really uncomfortable.

Tom Rowland: So probably lots of people would love it. But then, you know, learning a foreign language, trying to go to one of these business conferences, maybe — I don't know. Whatever it is that you hate about doing your business, what if you got really good at it? Like, you don't like doing the social media. But what if you went to a social media seminar and you learned how to do it, or you learned how to find the right person to hire for your thing? Wouldn't that make your life way better? Somehow you've got to get out of that comfort zone and you've got to keep doing it on a regular basis. And at some point, doing it regularly, doing the physical comfort zone enough, makes that within your comfort zone.

Matt Lawson: I totally agree with that. Whether you're getting up at 4:30 in the morning, 5:00, 5:30 in the morning, six — eventually, a lot of people don't like that, but you're so right. Once you've done it for thirty days roughly —

Tom Rowland: It's not a big deal.

Matt Lawson: Right. I mean, and that just shows —

Tom Rowland: But once you've done these types of events for twenty years —

Matt Lawson: It just shows us what we're able to absorb and adapt to and how much more we really can do. I mean, we can do so much more than what we currently are doing. All of us. All of us.

Closing Thoughts: Helping Others

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, that's probably a pretty good place to end it because we definitely all need to be on that path of learning how we can do more. But I appreciate you sitting down with me.

Matt Lawson: How do we help others? How do we reach out, help others?

Tom Rowland: There you go. How to help others. Because I think as you're helping others, you in turn are lifting yourself. That's one of the first things they told us in Kokoro when it got tough. It was, listen, you're going to go through a lot of hard times in the next fifty hours. The easiest way to make yourself feel better is to reach out to the person next to you and help them up. And it worked greatly. And that was not a privilege afforded to us in GORUCK selection, and the difference was profound. And I talked about that a lot with Patrick Saint Charles. So if you're listening to this and you want to hear about GORUCK selection, you can listen to the podcast I did with Patrick Saint Charles. He has been in GORUCK selection twice. The first time, he pretty much failed miserably. Second time, he did amazingly well and ended up in third with only three people remaining, until his mind was still strong, his body betrayed him, and he had to drop.

Matt Lawson: Tons of respect for Patrick. Tons of respect just to even go back. Just to even sign up and go back. Phenomenal athlete.

Tom Rowland: Just to sign up and go the first time.

Matt Lawson: That's true.

Tom Rowland: That is so true. Tons of respect. I mean, that's a different event. And on that podcast with Patrick, I compare Kokoro and selection from my experience, and everybody's got a different experience, and I'm no expert at it. And I made one and did not make the other. Take it for what it's worth. But, anyway, Matt, I'm glad you could sit down here with me and talk about all this, and I look forward to the next book. What's it going to be? What do we have?

Matt Lawson: I think we're doing Abundance.

Tom Rowland: Oh, Abundance. Yeah. Abundance. And that's by Peter Thiel?

Matt Lawson: No. The future — it starts with a D, I believe.

Tom Rowland: The XPRIZE. Yes. Peter Diamandis. Diamandis. Maybe we said that wrong. But, anyway, Abundance. So if you get on the blog and you read every one of these books, you can then read Abundance.

Matt Lawson: That's right. Only after you've read them all first.

Tom Rowland: All right. Thanks, Matt.

Matt Lawson: Thank you. Thank you.