Brendan Smith and Turner Rowland - The Men in the Arena | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 62

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 62 with Turner Rowland and Brendan Smith.

Tom Rowland: I'm sitting here, Bozeman, Montana, coming to you from Bozeman, Montana. Got two of my favorite people in the world sitting down here with me. One, Brendan Smith. Two, my son Turner Rowland. And, I came out here for my first elk hunt guided by my son, and, he lives with Brendan. And Brendan and Turner were good buddies in high school and then continued that friendship out into college at Montana State and, currently roommates living together, experiencing Montana as it should be. Right? Something like that. Well, Turner, you're you're coming off, a pretty exciting a pretty exciting few months. Right?

Turner Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. I just finished up, first guidance season for Elk up in, just up a little north of us in the, in the Gallatins.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And so tell me about tell me about your first season.

Turner's First Season Guiding Elk in the Gallatins

Turner Rowland: That was good, man. We, packed into camp all August, so just taking loads. We're guiding in the, Lee Metcalf Wilderness area. So no motorized vehicles, just horses, and we're up there packing, camping. Everything has to come in. Everything has to come out every, preseason and postseason. So we were doing that. Get to, the September 1, which was open day, and, had two weeks of interning to learn the terrain, learn how, elk act a little differently from where I've been hunting in the past, get to know everybody in camp pretty well, and then it's, off to the races on your own for another four weeks of, two weeks of bow hunting

Tom Rowland: And then another two weeks of rifle. So then they just cut you loose? Are you operating out of camp?

Turner Rowland: Yeah. So we, we're about eight miles back and operating out of camp every day. It's a six day hunt. So, six days of the week, we're out there, going out of camp and hunting elk every day.

Tom Rowland: Wow. And what was the what was the result?

Turner Rowland: The result? Well, I was there for three. Three elk on the ground, which I'm super proud of. So my first two weeks of interning, first week, we got a, about a 280 inch bull, decent six by six on the ground, first week archery. And then second week archery, we got a small six by six on the ground. Third week was, a little slow. Called a really nice six by six in and just couldn't make it happen. There's some branches in the way of the shot. He was at 31 yards, I think. Fourth week archery was pretty unproductive. But, first week of rifle, yeah, I, got in my first successful client all on my own. That was, you know, that was right in there in the Gallatin's, first week of rifle. And then second week was a little slower. Bulls got a little wary. We saw all the cows in the world that I think we saw four bulls that week, and they're all, you know, a couple miles away.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So now that you've had this first season, what are your big takeaways from your first season of elk hunting?

Turner Rowland: Patience. Patience, persistence. You know what's strange? Because I was doing a lot of the right things. Like, so many right things and just one little wrong thing, which is mostly either being patient on a bull, being a little quieter on a bull, so not calling as much, or, really just knowing elk habits a little more than I have in the past and learning from all the guides in camp. I mean, everybody in camp has a tremendous amount of experience. There's there's one fellow there who's been guiding for, thirty years. I mean, he started hunting there when he was 16. Knows every little trail, every elk that's in there, and he helped a lot, with me and just helping me learn, answering all my questions, and, was pretty instrumental to, the success I had. So

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So how did that work out? What was the dynamic like for a young kid, a new person coming in and having this older experienced hunter pay any attention to you at all. How did that work out, really? first, it didn't.

Earning Respect in Elk Camp

Turner Rowland: No. I kinda just started doing favors for him. He's a he's a super nice guy, but you gotta earn his respect definitely. So while I was packing in, I started riding his horses for him. He had first day pack, and I rode the owner's horse. He, lent me his horse. And then, after that, I started riding the this green Mustang that came out of the Pryor Mountains, named Kane. And he's kinda been sitting on pasture all summer and was pretty green. No one wanted to ride him. And so I just started riding him and working with him a little bit, and he was like, oh, man. Well, this guy, you know, kinda knows how to ride. He's he's nice, I guess. And so then we started getting into camp. Started getting into camp and, you know, while I was there interning, I got two bulls on the ground, and I guess he was like, Well, maybe this guy, you know, maybe this guy wants to learn or maybe this guy might stick around for a while. And then, first week of rifle killed an elk, and, I guess he, you know, just, realized that I had, you know, something to offer camp and kinda helped me, become a lot better elk hunter this season. I mean, the learning curve I thought the learning curve was super steep on elk hunting. My first few years out here, I learned a lot. Mhmm. But once you start guiding and start being out there every day, you are so in tune with even the little things such as the weather. You know, what the elk are doing. Okay. Well, this elk was out here yesterday. Okay. Well, this wind's coming usually coming down off the ridge in the morning. It's going up in the afternoon. So instead of coming up like I would, I know that the wind's gonna be coming down, so we need to circle above them and then come down or, you know, vice versa. If the wind's coming up a drainage, you can be like, okay. Well, I need to go further up this drainage to come down because these elk like to feed down in the meadow at night, and then they come up the ridge in the morning. So we're gonna start down in the drainage and work our way up a shooting light. Just little things like that, you're just so in tune with, and it's so fascinating to, you know, live with the elk. I mean, you're living with elk. Like, we would hear elk bugle all night long while we're sitting in camp. I mean, we I've heard stories of elk waking people up in the morning. That didn't happen this year, but they're they're everywhere, man. I mean, we go right behind camp and there'll be elk. Like, it's it's it's pretty cool, and it's a pretty cool place. And there are a lot of elk there. And just observing them and living with them and waking up every morning and hearing bugles, and you kinda start to recognize, like, different bulbs bugles. And you're like, okay. Well, like, I think I heard that one yesterday, and this is what he did. And so you're going over there and, look, playing the wind and the thermals and, you know, waiting for him to switch because a lot of times, there'll be a there'll be a bad wind. And so, you know, like, okay. Well, the elk are right there, but we can't get them right now because, you know, there's a barrier or there's a cliff or something. Or maybe it's just thick in there, and they're gonna bust us. So let's wait for the thermals to switch,

Tom Rowland: And then

Turner Rowland: They're gonna come right to us. And, that's that's what happened. It's kinda what happened first week, of rifle. But, yeah, I mean, just being in tune with your environment and your surroundings and living with the elk and then living with the bears and the wolves, and there's just so many factors and so many things going into it. And then you start to overcomplicate it, and then you start to oversimplify it. And then there's just so many things going on. And Ed was the fellow's name who's been guiding there thirty years, and he, you know, he'd answer all my questions and make you know, I'd come into camp. And just seeing him hunt a little bit and seeing the way he talks about the area, I was like, man, this guy knows what he's doing. So even just simple questions that some people would roll their eyes out. Like, man, when do you cow call? Like, you're super successful. I know when I cow call, but when do you cow call? You've killed, you know, 30 elk. Mhmm. So, you know, maybe I'm doing something a little wrong or not right. You know, it seems simple. You know, when do you cow call? It seems like an obvious question, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes these answers are a little hidden, or maybe there's one situation where you can ask them a super simple question, and he can give you a super simple answer. But when you're in that situation, you're like, oh, man. Well, this is what I've done, and the elk haven't the elk didn't come in.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Turner Rowland: So maybe I'll try this. And then, sure as shit, here comes the elk. You're like, man, this guy knows what he's talking about.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I think it's I think it's pretty mature of you to realize that you can't just go stomping into a new place and have the older, more experienced people, you know, expect that they're going to help you out. I think that's, pretty wise, really, to think, okay. Well, I'm gonna need to be doing whatever kind of work I can. I'm gonna take all the dirty work, all the dirty jobs, and really start to develop a little bit of respect, and then just keep your eyes open and your mouth shut for the most part. And that's the way it worked in fishing, and it's interesting that it worked in elk hunting. But you guys are both doing things that are a little bit off a little different than a lot of people that you, graduated from high school with and just kinda interested in how that worked for both of you. How you know, let's back it up a little bit to first of all, I wanna go into how you made this elk hunting guide operation happen because this has been a dream of yours for a long time. And even though I'm in the outdoor space and I know a lot of people, I don't really know anybody in the elk hunting world necessarily, and so I couldn't I didn't help you get this job. So how did that happen that you find this opportunity or you create this opportunity for yourself? Or if somebody else was thinking about doing something like that, what does it look like? Well,

How Turner Landed the Guiding Job

Turner Rowland: I guess those are two kinda separate questions. I'm gonna I'm gonna tackle the first one, the how I got into it. It really started from, extremely early age at, you know, 12. I think I killed my first year with granddad, you know, just a little four point buck, Michigan four point. So a two point in Montana

Tom Rowland: That, you

Turner Rowland: Know, has four points. From there, I just kinda started to, like, kinda look around, and I was like, man, that's coolest thing I've ever done. That's the coolest thing I've ever done. There are a lot of coolest things I've ever done. You know, we'd you know, when I was growing up, we'd you'd pick me up from school and go catch tarpon. Like, that's that's one of the coolest things I've ever done. But, I start kinda started to explore, and then we got in turkey hunting, and I killed my first turkey with you. And then I killed two more and with you.

Tom Rowland: And who does all the killing?

Turner Rowland: In that same year. And I think I saw my first elk hunt video that next year, and just immediately, I was like, man, that looks something that I'd like to do. And I saw another elk hunt video, and I was like, like, where is this? And I and then I was looking at where it was, and it's in the mountains. And I was like, man, that's I'm gonna do that. I kinda set my mind to it. And I remember, probably from when I was 13, I was like, dad, let's go elk hunting. Let's go elk hunting. Let's go elk hunting. You're like, well, when you can carry a 50 mile pack 50 pound pack for eight miles, well, then we'll go elk hunting. I was like, okay. Well, I don't know I don't know about that. Then I started looking more into it and more into it and more into it. And, just every year, I think I wish for Christmas a an elk hunt, and it just kinda wasn't feasible. We didn't know anything about it. It was 2,000 miles away. It was probably the nearest elk now. I mean, they're elk in the Smoky Mountains and everything. Even though they're extremely hard to draw, you can still go look at them.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Turner Rowland: But just kinda this I was just really interested with elk. Almost to a So

Tom Rowland: You have the interest, but how does that turn into actually having the, the opportunity to do it professionally?

Turner Rowland: Oh, yeah. So after gaining some experience elk hunting, gaining some good experience elk hunting, for whatever reason, I, took a semester and, went back home to get this these contacts, now allow me to see, you know, 2020.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Turner Rowland: Just wanted some time at home, a really very stable, I guess, would be the right word, environment where not a lot's going on. You can kinda get used to these contacts because they're it's basically a hard piece of plastic you put in your eye. Like, it's not an activity that I would describe as fun. So I just wanted, a really relaxed atmosphere, and I was going to school back in Chattanooga. Just kinda took a step back and didn't really like what I was doing. Like, not all I could think about was, you know, elk in the mountains and all everything I watched was elk hunting, and I just kinda started thinking about it. And I was like, man, well, I don't even know I don't even know if I'm gonna get to go elk hunting this fall. Like, I might be back in Chattanooga. Like, the deepest sense of, like, disappointment overcame me to the point where I was like, man, I'm just gonna guide. Like, I'm gonna go out there, and this is what I'm gonna do. Like, I just can't think about anything else. I can't function without doing this. So I'm gonna go and I'm gonna guide. And I came up to you, and I was like, dad, I think I'm gonna do this. You're like, okay. Well, how are you gonna do it? I was like, I don't know. You know? I don't I don't know where to start. How did you start? You're like, well, you know, I started with this guide school, and so I started looking at guide schools. I was like, I don't know if that's what I wanna do. There wasn't really any I couldn't find any good information on and, like, to find a reputable guide school. I found a couple that I was a little interested in, but it didn't really appeal to me that much. And so I came back to you again, and I was like, man, I don't know about this guide school. Like, you think there's any way that I can just do it? You're like, well, I got this advice, you know, one time that said to write a letter a week. You know? I can't remember the exact story, but I started getting in contact. You know, as technology advances, you know, I wanted to take advantage of that. So I got into contact with one outfitter or day, actually, whether that be, like, phone call, email, or handwritten letter. I just started calling up everything from Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Idaho, Utah, Montana, Wyoming, even Alberta.

Tom Rowland: I was

Turner Rowland: I was calling everybody. No one really give me the time of day because who wants to hire a guide that doesn't have any guiding experience? And finally, I called, this one fellow up who, owns a outfitting business in Alder, Montana, Broken Arrow Ranch, and I was gonna I was gonna ride horses for them, train their horses in exchange for an opportunity to guide. And that kinda fizzled in and out, fizzled in and out, started kept on making calls, kept on contacting these, these companies, these outfitters, and ran into a guy who Josh Abbott, who I work for now, who's the owner of the outfitter, and he actually did the same job in Yellowstone that I did. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He worked as a Wrangler in Yellowstone. He actually worked in Canyon Lodge, one of the two locations. Now I worked in the other one, Roosevelt Lodge, and so did, like, so did another guy and, like, four other elk guides that he knows. And so he was like, oh, you worked at Roosevelt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know that. Do you know this person? I was like, yeah. I know them. Okay. Well, do you know this person? I know them too. And then just by strange coincidence, one of the guys that graduated from the high school that me and Brendan went to was a guide for Sage Peak Outfitters. And so we kinda got to talking, and I was like, well, I'd really like to guide this fall. And it's like, okay. Well, we're actually looking for a guide, but, you know, I wanna make sure he's a, you know, a good elk hunter and can, you know, give good customer service and make sure his clients are all taken care of. And so he calls Crate, and he's like, hey, man. Do you know anything about this guy? He goes, yeah. Actually, I do. You know, we have a bunch of mutual friends in common. You know, he I don't really know anything about his hunting, but, let me give another call to a friend who knows him

Writing a Letter a Week

Tom Rowland: A lot better. And so just through the process of, like, recommendations and the process of bugging the stew out of them, I got the opportunity to guide out. Yeah. That's that's cool. That's and what I like about that is that there's persistence, but it certainly didn't happen in the on the first try. And that advice that was given to me was from Michael Pollock. This is before the Internet. And I asked him one time. I was like, what do you do? You know? I was asking him kinda similar thing. Like, give me some help here. How do you how do you grow your business? How do you do these you know, create more business and everything? He said, well, I'll I'll write a letter a week. And I was like, really? A letter a week? Like, who do you write them to? Like, I don't know. I just make sure that I write a letter a week. Trying to dig in a little deeper. I'm like, who would you possibly write a letter a week to? He's like, you know, reps for tackle companies, tackle companies, my clients, anybody. You know? And so the beauty of that is that a letter a week is not too much. But where the real magic comes is when you decide that you're gonna do that and you come up to a week, and you've already written your old clients' letters, and you've already written all the tackle reps that you know letters, and you've already written the tackle companies that you know letters, and you have literally, you have no one to write a letter to. And so you're racking your brain of if I've gotta write a letter, so who am I gonna write it to? I don't know. And you just keep racking your brain and racking your brain. And maybe this week, you write it to the editor of a magazine. You're like, you know, I really like the articles in your magazines, and I write some articles. Maybe I could submit one day. And you just expect to get nothing back from and you get nothing back from 90% of these. But if you just keep doing that and today, like, you can easily write an email a day. Like, whatever you wanted to do, you could write an email a day very easily. So easy to get somebody's contact information on the Internet now. You write that letter a day or an email a day, and you'll get something back from 1%, maybe 10%. 10% would be great. But, eventually, you create this opportunity to make something happen. I think that's super cool. And, man, what a what an incredible opportunity. I mean, we had a really great time. I mean, we're coming out extremely late season now, I guess. It's pretty late season.

Turner Rowland: I mean, they're done with the rut. They're you know, bulls are batchling up in their batch and grouping up in their batching groups, and cows are

Hunting Late-Season Elk in the Snow

Tom Rowland: I didn't really expect anything other than I just wanted to spend some time with you. I wanted to see what you were kinda doing. And, I mean, the whole introduction, your entire introduction to this place that's out this window right here, Bozeman, Yellowstone, Jackson area, was basically to come out here and go hiking, and that's what we did. You know, as a family, we would just come out and go hiking. And, you know, you're in this incredibly beautiful area, and, you know, we've hiked to some really cool stuff. And that's kinda what elk hunting, late season elk hunting was like. Like, we went to a place. We got on a trailhead. We started walking on public land. Then we go veer off trail, and you're you're following and all these tracks. And then we're mostly we hiked 11.8 miles. Most of that was straight up or straight down. And I just thought it was super cool, man. I mean, I see how people get really, really into it.

Turner Rowland: Yeah. So I wanna hear I wanna hear, like, your preconceived notions of what elk hunting would be like and then what you think of afterwards.

Tom Rowland: Well, I didn't I didn't really have any preconceived notions because the only thing that I know about elk hunting is that you can get some people get really, really close to them, like, elk hunting, archery hunting, I mean, for elk. And so I realized that this is a different season, and we're gonna be doing different things. But I really you know, I've been in the outdoors most of my life and certainly have spent a tremendous amount of time fishing and guiding and managing people's expectations as a professional guide. So I try not to have any expectations. My expectation is that I'm gonna be able to spend the day with my son, and we're gonna have a great time no matter what happens. I mean, we could have a survival situation, and it's going to be a great day.

Turner Rowland: We packed for it.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, you told me it was negative five. I'm coming straight from Key West, and, I'm deciding that, negative five. I brought, like, 300 pounds of clothes. But you told me what to get, and I got the right stuff, and it was great. And if anything, I was too hot, you know, because, I mean, it is incredibly physically active, and fitness is paramount in everything that you're doing in this type of hunting. And so, obviously, I love that. I mean, the harder it is, the more I'm gonna like it. And the further we have to go, the more it self selects who's gonna go back there. And so the further you go, the less people you're gonna see, and I'm all for that. I love that. And so I really didn't have any expectations. I kinda had a suspicion that we were gonna get one. I really did. I really thought we're gonna get one, and I was already planning on packing it out. Like

Turner Rowland: That's when you get in trouble, man. You're like, alright. Well, how many can pack out?

Tom Rowland: No. No. No. No. No. It wasn't like that. It wasn't like I'm planning on packing it out. I planned on packing it out with what I took in, what I was wearing, how much water I brought, because I am prepared for a 100 pound pack out. That's what I mean and whether we got one or not, I was prepared for that. Like, I didn't have my I mean, my pack on the way in was light, but I made sure that I had plenty of water because in training for the GORUCK and all that stuff, I mean, I know what a 100 pound packout for 12 miles is like. It was with sand and not with a with an elk leg, but you gotta drink a lot of water. I mean, you don't just you don't just carry a 100 pounds on your back and go, you know, 10 miles and not carry a lot of water. So I was prepared for all of these things. I didn't really fully expect that it was gonna happen, but it wouldn't have surprised me if it did.

Turner Rowland: But it also would have surprised

Tom Rowland: Me if it didn't. Based

Turner Rowland: On the amount of tracks we saw I mean, their tracks were everywhere, man. And we're just I think we're just a couple days too late Yeah. You know, with their migratory patterns. Well, we saw plenty

Tom Rowland: Of deer, and then we saw lots of tracks. And that was what was really cool. You know, I had this I kept thinking all day long. Like, we're doing this, we're doing this elk hunting, and we're in a public land area, but we're late season, so there is a foot I mean, it's not an exaggeration.

Turner Rowland: It says probably eight inches of snow on the ground.

Tom Rowland: Eight inches of snow. And then the day that we're out there, it is snowing hard when we an hour after we start, it starts to snow. Then it starts to snow harder, basically, every hour that we're out there, which was the entire day. And by the end, you know, we had an accumulation of at least three or four inches while we were out there. That's it. So what I was fascinated with the tracks and how we were looking at the tracks and how we could tell that the tracks weren't today and how you could see deer tracks that definitely were today really fresh. And you could see your boot track, and you could see how everything was different. And then you could come back across where we had where we had walked, and you notice how your boot track is now filling up with snow. And so then you compare that to the animal tracks, and you're like, okay. Well, that's at least a day old, and without knowing a lot about it. But I kept having this thought, and I was like, wow. This is incredible because if we came up here three weeks ago when there was no snow, everything looks perfect, and we know that this is a place that elk like to be, and we know that this is a place that a lot of elk have been killed in the past. This is a great area. And we go up there, and we hike around all day long, and there's no snow on the ground. You would be thinking, man, I know they're there, and we're just missing them.

Turner Rowland: I don't know, man. I've been in a lot of situations where I'm like, man, I don't know if there are any elk.

Reading Tracks in the Snow

Tom Rowland: Well, Well, right. But when there's snow on the ground and it's covering everywhere, there's no missing it. There's no mistaking it. Like, we could look across a half a mile across or even further with the binoculars, and you could see the tracks going up the

Turner Rowland: Hill. Yeah. We were talking about that and be like, man, I wonder how many animals pass through there. You know? This mountain range is x amount of years old. Right.

Tom Rowland: You know? And that was so cool. And I kept having this thought. I was like, how much different would flats fishing be if fish left tracks? Like, if you could see and you can in The Bahamas. Like, you remember when we went to The Bahamas and I was showing you those little horseshoe shaped things? Look. This is where bonefish have been feeding through here. Okay. For whatever reason, the bottom structure in The Bahamas allows for that way more than the bottom structure in the Keys. I don't know if it's just harder or what, but you go in The Bahamas, and you can clearly see where a 100 bonefish have gone through, and they leave almost what looks like an elk track on the sand. And you can go through there, and you can tell that's very fresh. Like, they are just a 100 yards in front of us somehow, or that's like yesterday or whatever. We don't see that in The Keys like they see it in The Bahamas, but that's a place where you go, this looks like there should be bonefish here. There should be bonefish here. And you pull around, and then you look at these tracks that they've that they're leaving where they have been feeding, and you're like, yeah. I knew they were bonefish here. I knew they would be here. And they may not be here exactly when we're here, but this is an area that they like. And I kept looking at all these tracks that we were seeing going, man, this is really cool because you can come up here and you have immediate validation of, okay. I think there are gonna be elk here. Sure enough, there were a lot of elk here. We may have missed them by a day, but then you start you know, over the years, I'm sure you'll start to get better and better at honing in when they're going to be there and when they're not gonna be there and when too late when it's too late and when's not. And, you know, that's gonna be the time as you start to get better and better. You know, you just kinda look at an area or whatever, and you could just probably eventually, after doing it for twenty years or whatever, you just know, should've been there last week probably. Now we're gonna move over to this other drainage, and that's probably where

Brendan Smith: They're going.

Tom Rowland: What we did. Yeah.

Turner Rowland: Know, I we were looking at the elk tracks, and they were heading down. I'm like, man, they're heading down. They're not in the flats out because we can we were in a spot, very famous elk hunting spot, very widely known, and you can kinda see down on the flats. And so we were glassed at the flats, and there weren't any elk there. So it's like they're obviously still in the mountains.

Tom Rowland: That's what I like so much better about the Western hunting than the Eastern hunting is the opportunity to get on one of those places where you can see this big vista. And just like what we you know, what I kinda think was your introduction to this type of hunting was us, in quotes, hunting animals Yellowstone by just pulling out on the pullouts and everybody getting out with their binoculars and seeing who can see what. Like, that was our game. Yeah. That was our game that

The Cow Elk in Mammoth

Turner Rowland: We played. Stuff like that, man. We saw that one grizzly bear, running downhill chasing that elk calf. We saw, pack of coyotes, actually getting elk calf. All these hat oh, man. We have some crazy about elk calf. Remember and then I'm lucky I ever went elk hunting again, man. Because remember that time in, in I think it was Mammoth Hot Springs where I got attacked by that cow elk?

Tom Rowland: You didn't really get attacked.

Turner Rowland: I did get attacked by a cow elk, man. I thought I was gonna die that day.

Tom Rowland: You I told you not to go out that

Turner Rowland: The mountain elk was gonna attack me. Well, I

Tom Rowland: No. I was gonna do. I mean, we're in the park. There's a lot of things out there. It's the first thing in the morning. And so Turner goes out the door, and he starts screaming. And he's on one side of the car, and there's a mother elk on the other side of the car. Turner goes one way, and the elk goes that way. And then he goes the other way, and the elk goes that way. So there's this car in between the two of them. I was like, what is all that noise? And I opened the back door. Like, why did you go out the back door? I'm you were terrified, that elk. I was 12, man.

Turner Rowland: There's an 800 pound animal.

Tom Rowland: But, you know, it was nerve wracking. But it all that's why you're so mad at him now. It all worked out.

Turner Rowland: Well, you're just over there. You were no help at all. You were just laughing at me. Well, I

Tom Rowland: Mean, I shooed it away, eventually. I knew if you stayed on their your one side of the car, you were gonna be fine.

Turner Rowland: Well, what happened was is that the calf her calf got I got in between the calf and the mama. then her calf stayed behind me, and then, eventually, the calf went back to the mom. And there was this, like, Subaru behind you know, in between me and this elk that wanted to trample me. And I say I got attacked because, man, it happened. There was a

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, it happened

Turner Rowland: To me. But there was another lady in Mammoth who got trampled by an elk, by a cow elk. This They're no joke? Yeah, man. It's no joke. And I was a little 12 year old kid, terrified, in tears. And I look over there, and you, mom, and Hayden and Hannah are just dying like that.

Tom Rowland: It was you and the moral of the story is, listen to your dad. I told you we're going out the front door, and you went out the back door.

Turner Rowland: Well, I didn't know that the fear of death would be in my eyes if I didn't

Tom Rowland: Better a cow elk than a grizzly bear. Yeah. True. True. You know, it could happen anywhere in the park. But, so anyway, that's that's super cool. And I'm glad to hear that you did that. And we have Brendan here too. I wanna hear Brendan's story too because Brendan has been doing as passionately as you've been going after the hunting, Brendan seems to be going after the fishing. And it's slightly different story, but you guys went to high school together kind of at different times. Like, you plan to come to Montana State far sooner than Turner did. And Turner was a late decision maker. But what was your decision like to come out here rather than, you know, what everybody else was doing?

Brendan's Path to Montana

Brendan Smith: I've always been in love with the outdoors. And growing up, I was just like Turner. Dad, when can I go fishing? When can I go fishing? And I remember I started fishing when I was two years old and grew up fishing on a Finger Lake in Upstate New York. Every summer, we'd go up there. And I remember watching my dad's cast go and go up in the air, and I just thought that was the most beautiful thing ever. And I went to, fly fishing camp when I was, I think, nine or 10. And I went there double sessions, both sessions, and I loved it. Went three years in a row, and that's actually when I saw mister Rowland for the first time. I didn't even know Turner at the time. And he was cast in football field length, and it just blew my mind. And I'd always thought, man, I wanna do something different in my life. I wanna do the thing that really makes me come alive. And I knew that, I got this I went out to Bozeman and visited my buddy's Ranch, and we went to this pawnshop in Bozeman. And I got this velvet painting, black velvet with white paint, and it has these mountains and the northern lights in a cabin. And I have it had it above my bed, and I'd go to sleep every night. I was a senior in high school. I thought I'd stay in the South and, go to Georgia, but I look up at that painting, and I'd be and I'd say to myself, man, that's that's the dream right there. being there. Just being there. And I knew that nothing was stopping me from making that a reality but myself. And so I decided to pull the trigger and make it happen. And, at the time, no one else was going out there. I just knew it was something that I had

Tom Rowland: To do. So when you're when you're thinking about that, I mean, the Rocky Mountains are a big place, and there's there's Colorado, and there's even, you know, Southern Rockies, Utah kinda area, and then you have two different schools in Montana. Like, what drew you to Montana State? So I toured both Montana and Montana State. And when I was 13, I came out to Yellowstone for a fishing trip

Brendan Smith: Mhmm. With my dad. And I remember going out there, and I was like, gosh. Like, I was in the hotel looking up in Bozeman after we flew in. I was looking up at the mountains like, wow. Like, is this even real? Yeah. And I was blown away. And just the access to fishing around here and, skiing really, really drew me. And I just felt it really came down. I felt at home in Bozeman. Yeah. That's kinda

Tom Rowland: What I noticed. Interesting thing too is, like, I think a lot of people one of the reactions that I get when I tell people that you guys are out here is like, oh, are they going to school? But, I mean, you're studying, like, real stuff. Like, what is your major? I'm studying computer science. And with what? You have a different minor too?

Studying Computer Science and AI

Brendan Smith: I'm, planning minor in music right now, but kinda up in the air.

Tom Rowland: But the computer science that you're that you're studying, I mean, we talked about it a little bit before. I mean, you're you're studying artificial intelligence and, like, all of these ways to create apps and, like, the stuff that you're studying is, like, hard for me to even understand. But, I mean, you're going after it. You're saying you're getting kicked out of the library

Brendan Smith: At the 2AM mark. Yeah. The janitor's coming. He's sweeping. He's like, man, like, it's time to go. And I'm like, oh, go somewhere else.

Tom Rowland: So you're not done with your homework at 2AM?

Brendan Smith: Sometimes, you know, you gotta crank her out till she's done. But, yeah, it's it's kinda I just put in this mindset where if I like to work hard, play hard, and, you know, school comes first. I get that done, and then getting that done allows me to go to the river. But for me, studying computer science enables me this freedom to be able to work in any industry I want. And if I can help, like, as many people as I possibly can? And it's really fascinating for me to learn about all these technological changes that are happening in the world.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I know. I was just talking to you, and you scared the crap out of me. Like, the artificial intelligence just blows me away. It scares me. And then I hear somebody like Elon Musk say that it's the it's the devil incarnate and that is absolutely what we need to watch out for. And I'm thinking, man, I am not the smartest person even in this room, and artificial intelligence just scares me to death. Like and we were even having some conversations of, what do you think like, with your knowledge of artificial intelligence, what do you think the reality is that of these movies where the machines take over and then destroy mankind? And you were kinda like, I don't know. I mean, I think it's pretty possible. And then I'm like, oh, man. I thought you were gonna say it was just Hollywood. No, Brendan. So is it possible?

Brendan Smith: I mean, it who's to say? But right now, I think that's that's a really far away where they have that full control. But we're at a very, like, golden age where we're at that turning point of where, we're giving all these machines the ability to teach themselves, and that's very vital time. In that process, we need to really focus on the ethics of what we are coding these machines to do and how they think. And

Tom Rowland: So that's a pretty big statement that we need to look at the ethics of that. So when you're studying this in a college environment, university setting, is that coming into the class at all?

The Ethics of Artificial Intelligence

Brendan Smith: I mean, we have had ethics class, but, honestly, I think it should be focused on more. The power that people these professors are teaching their students is pretty substantial, and it needs to be used for good, and it needs to be used to help people. A lot of people think, like, oh, the artificial intelligence, they're gonna take our jobs. And but, really, if you look over the timeline of history, industrial revolution, it may have taken out, some jobs, but it also promotes and excels jobs that we can even imagine.

Tom Rowland: Right. Right. I mean, as simple as, you know, twelve years ago, there wasn't such a thing as a social media manager. Like, I mean and that's a very, very simple little example for what you're talking about, but there'll be entire industries that we don't even have a I mean, we couldn't even possibly forecast out that there will be these entire industries. I mean, who would have forecasted that there would be an entire industry around Fortnite? I mean, you know, I mean, that's not even that long ago. And now, like, it is crazy. I mean but I don't know. When you said when we were having the conversation about could machines take over, and what really scared me about what you said is you're like, yeah. Machines just you know, you built this machine to figure out what the problem is and how we can reduce traffic. And, well, the real problem is that there's too many people, so just reduce the number of people. And how do we do that? We just shut the grid down, and everybody dies, and there's no more traffic. And that was it was like, be careful what you be careful the goal you set for these machines because they are they don't they don't have there's not, like, the compass. Yeah. There's no moral compass to what they're doing, and it's like they just have a goal Mhmm. That you've set for them. Reduce traffic. And they're like, okay. Well, the easiest way to do that is less people. How do we kill the people the fastest? So I don't know if that's if that's reality or whatever, but that just kinda scared the crowd.

Brendan Smith: That's a pretty extreme example, I think. But, like, as far as things, Brendan. I mean, it's it's real, and it's just people need to when they're coding these things, they need to be always keep in mind the consequences and the parameters that they are setting and the datasets they're using, because that all comes into play. And, once it gets to that point where you're not really sure why the machine is doing something, that's when it gets into this gray area. That

Tom Rowland: Wow. And then what

Brendan Smith: Do you do? Unplug it? I mean, yeah. I turn it off

Tom Rowland: And turn it back on. That's how I fix everything. But what if it won't let you? Like, all of a sudden, the power button didn't work, and it just keeps going. We had this we had this, movie when I was a kid, and it was called War Games. And it seems like this would be a perfect time to reboot this. So this is, like, the second movie this week that I thought would be the perfect time to

Turner Rowland: To reboot it. Back to the future talk.

Tom Rowland: Back to the future. Yeah. We're gonna have The Rock's gonna be Biff.

Turner Rowland: We're gonna haven't figured out who Marty McFly is gonna be. Who's this? Efron. Zac Efron?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Zac Efron's gonna be Marty McFly. He's gonna have to lay off the weights a little bit, though, because Marty I mean, he could probably take out Biff. But we've got we've got The Rock as Biff. We've got Jack Black, with his hair dyed gray Mhmm. As Doc. And he's

Turner Rowland: Backed up with some grease.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. We've got, oh, the girlfriend. You had one. The New Zealand.

Turner Rowland: Natalie Rosser. Yeah. Okay. That's that's Brendan's future chick right there.

Tom Rowland: I'll take your advice on that one. Anyway, so now that's the reboot. But we had this movie called War Games that was all about this machine that could simulate war, and then you would try to win. And, it got out of control, and it just kept going, and wouldn't stop. And, so they had to stop it. Seems like that would be a perfect reboot. WarGames. Anybody in Hollywood listening. I'm I'll buy a ticket. And we gotta have The Rock and Jack Black and somebody else is in there. Bradley Cooper? Oh, yeah. That's I mean, everybody will buy a ticket for a Bradley Cooper movie. Right? He's funny, usually. I don't know about The Star is Born. So, anyway, one of the things that you said that was super interesting is that you said that the more you study computers and computer science, the more you wanna get away from them and value your time on the river. Is that accurate, what I just said? Yeah.

Trading Screens for the River

Brendan Smith: That's totally accurate. So I remember walking down, the hallway the other day at school, and I looked and 75% of the kids were on their phones. And it just kinda wowed me. Like, there was no face to face communication going on. Everyone was just checking their social media, texting someone. And then I went upstairs, and, I went and I texted someone. Then I realized, gosh. Maybe I'm I'm one of them. Every time I go out and I go fishing and I'm just sitting there, the water's passing between my legs, and I just casting and don't have a worry in the world. And I just have this such a deep connection to the nature. And I think where all these people in New York City are these people in big cities that can't experience something as intimate as I'm experiencing right now. And I fear that people are gonna constantly be disconnected from the primal instinct to get out in the nature and to really, do what you love. And maybe that doesn't have to be nature. But for me, it is, and I just feel a real connection to myself and to others. And to when I go fishing with others, I have such a great experience and stories to tell. And as I study these machines and I sit there behind a computer for eight hours in the day, and all I'm thinking is, dang. I really wanna get out on the water. But I know what keeps driving me to keep getting behind this computer is to the knowledge that I can teach myself anything. If you're listening to this, like, podcast and thinking, man, I can't teach myself computer science. I can't give myself this freedom to be able to work from anywhere, to work on any project that I want. You definitely can. There's there's free resources out there online that you can learn and you can teach yourself to really do anything that you want and anything that you can set your mind to, you can do. Well,

Tom Rowland: That's cool. Including fishing. Right? Yeah. Like, you so definitely.

Brendan Smith: Well, I

Tom Rowland: I wanna know if since you can teach yourself to do anything, what has your learning curve been like getting out here and becoming, like, a fisherman on the rivers and tackling the drift boat? And has that been a super easy process?

The Drift Boat Disaster in Idaho

Brendan Smith: Well, no. So I started out I got my drift boat last fall, and I have a great story for y'all. So I, first few days having the drift boat, took it down the, an easy river, and that wasn't too bad. But then I tried to I took it over down to Idaho and went on this kinda boys fishing trip overnight camping. Had two boats. It's gonna be great. And we get to the boat ramp, and I'm putting it in, and I realized, dang. It's pretty windy out there. Like, it'll be good. It's Montana. It's always windy in paradise. And so our I guess it was Idaho, but both equally pretty windy. And we get in the river, and, we keep going down, and I am brand spanking new on the oars, on the sticks, and I'm I'm kinda struggling a little bit. And the wind is howling. And, to describe to you how strong this wind is, just to go downstream, I'd I'd be having to row backwards down the river downstream and to for to fish, it was incredibly hard. And if I wasn't rowing, our boat would be moving upstream. And it was upstream wind, probably 40 mile an hour, and it was ridiculous. It was crazy. And kept inching. It was like I was in a marathon. Like, I was just signed up for the crew team, and I was just rowing my heart out. I was breaking. I was sweating. It was cold. And I let one of my friends behind the oars, and we went through this pretty technical section. And there was, this tree that was overhanging in the water, and it was really deep. And he ended up smacking against this tree, slamming up against it, and water just started pouring in the boat. Oh my god. And, oh, and my life, like, literally, like, a little bit flashed before my eyes, and I was like, woah. This is intense. And I decided to instinctively jump on, the side of the boat and, bam, it popped right up. But there was gallons of water in the boat, And I was just wide eyed, like, ugh, just didn't say anything. And then we parked the boat. You know, I got the little squirt gun. I'm squirting it out and just thinking, wow. This is it's a crazy trip. And we still had six miles of the river to go, and the wind was still howling. We caught some ended up catching, some nice 22, 23 inch browns, which is pretty sweet. But, man, it would thought and then so we start going down the river more. It starts getting dark. And we, we realized, wow. We don't know where this boat ramp is. And it's still windy. Still having to row downstream with my back facing the stream. And I'm literally having to look over my shoulder just to row.

Tom Rowland: And you're not letting any of your friends get back in that wars anymore?

Brendan Smith: No. It's it's pretty much me from there. And we end up getting it's getting probably three miles from the boat ramp on Google Maps. And luckily, we had some phone juice left, but, I think one person had a headlamp, one and then everyone's phone was about to die with, we just had that phone light, and it starts to get pitch black. And we're prepared to huddle up like some penguins on the stream Idaho on the bank, and we decided to keep on going. And, finally, we make it to the boat ramp, and it is midnight. And it is super dark, and get to the boat ramp. And we get there, and I don't know where the car is. Dude, where's my car? It's I don't know. And we there's, thirty minutes around the boat ramp, finally find it. Thank god. And then what you know, the key's not there. It's

Turner Rowland: All locked.

Tom Rowland: No. Yep. So we end up having to hitchhike. Did you think you might have lost them in the river?

Brendan Smith: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was a deep concern. I searched the boat thoroughly, and they were not there. I was check double checking the package and end up having to hitchhike by some, friendly fellow campers. Got,

Tom Rowland: That you had to wake up at midnight.

Brendan Smith: Yeah. Just to get some help. But, luckily, people are nice and, were able to help us out and get us to the shuttle car, which luckily had my keys in it. And we were able to finally get back to Bozeman at a, an early 4AM.

Tom Rowland: And this is day one with your new boat? Yeah. Day one.

Brendan Smith: Pretty much. Pretty much day one, and, gosh, that scarred me. So if you're a new rower out there and, thinking, wow, maybe that like, you had a scary experience like that, and you're thinking, that it might hold you back, but don't let it because

Tom Rowland: Well, did you did how quickly did you just jump back on the horse and ride?

Brendan Smith: It took me a couple of months, honestly. Yeah. I was bucked straight off and got stomped a couple times, but I was able to get back on the sticks and, really just kinda take my time, and it really helped to get out with people that knew what they were doing.

Tom Rowland: It helped. That's funny. Because it seems like that's pretty much the case in every walk of life that if you can actually go with somebody that knows what they're doing Mhmm. You cut the learning curve and possible death curve. Mhmm. But, but, I mean, they these rivers around here are no joke, man. And then you have situations to where, I mean, hypothermia is real. And, you know, if you go out there and you get wet and the wind's blowing, now it's dark, and you're you get yourself in a situation to where you're gonna have to spend the night out there, and you didn't think of you just thought this was gonna be, you know, little three hour river trip and bring your sunscreen, and Nobody brings a jacket. I mean, the Rocky Mountains, basically, you guys have been out here plenty to know. But, I mean, the first couple weeks you're out here, maybe you don't realize that everywhere you go should be carrying water and no jacket because the weather changes super fast. And if you're gonna take a little day hike up one of these hills over here, that could turn out bad. I mean, you really need to be prepared around here because when it changes, it changes fast, and the river can go even quicker because you can get wet. And when you get wet, that wind's blowing. That is bad news, man, as you know. But you got wet yesterday. Right?

Falling in the River

Brendan Smith: Oh, yeah. So I went fishing yesterday, and, I woke up at 05:00 in the morning. Went to some hot yoga. It was great. If you haven't done that, go do it. It's a great way to start off the day. And so after that, I was walking to hot yoga, and I noticed it was pretty warm. It was 45, around 45 degrees.

Tom Rowland: That's in late November, mid November. Mhmm.

Brendan Smith: And I was like, fish gotta be moving. And so I'm doing, you know, I'm doing the Warrior two, and I'm like, wow. This the fishing's gonna be really good after this. And, sure enough, I get to the river. I call or I call my buddy, and he meets me, and we go. And, I haven't even cashed yet, and I'm we're going up to this, one hole, and we decide, it's too fast to cross. So we go up to the next hole. I go in and, I'm my buddy's fishing in the hole below. I'm going to the top hole. I'm going across the river. And as I'm going, I look down at the rapids, and I think to myself, man, it would be tragic to fall is a 35

Tom Rowland: And it's no longer 47 degrees. Right?

Brendan Smith: It is a 35 degrees, like, lightly sprinkling, about to snow. The weather forecast, it's it's supposed to change into snow in a couple hours. And before you know it, right as I had that thought, couple steps, I lose my footing on one step trying to slam my feet down. And next thing you know, I'm my head's under the water, and I'm I'm floating down in the river like a bug. And I'm, I didn't I wasn't really panicking, but, gosh, it sure did wake me up. And I cold. Yeah. That was it. It's a little chilly. And so I'm, I'm, like, swinging my arms, like, trying to get to the shore, but the river keeps taking me and taking me. And I'm looking down at my buddy, and I see him, and he's fishing. And he's like, he's got the widest. So I was like, oh, man. I'm about to be spit out right into his fishing hole. But then, the river decides to give me grace, and I go out and get in over in this Eddie, and I get out on the shore. And, you know, I've seen some survival shows and thinking I need to start taking off these clothes. So I take off my jacket, wring it out, and I could fill half a bucket with how much water I had. I decide, you know what? I'm I'm here, and I'm gonna do some fishing. My buddy's like, oh, do you wanna head home? And I'm like, I'm good. Let's get it. So you

Tom Rowland: Didn't fill your waders up?

Waders and Wading Belts

Brendan Smith: No. No. I had a wading belt, and that was that taught me I almost always have a wading belt, and now I will always, always, always have a wading belt because you will you never know when you're gonna fall. And be sure to have that thing tight because, nearly almost no water got on under

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Which You know, there's there's a lot of different kinds of waders. And the ones that you were probably wearing are the more fly fishing style where you have the stocking foot waiter with the boots on the outside, and the boots have laces. Mhmm. And they're tight, and you walk a lot in these boots. So they're like a high top tennis shoe or even a boot that is tight. So if you fill those waders up, it's not like you're kicking those out like a pair of boot foot waders that your foot just kinda slides into, and you fill those up, and you could pretty easily just kick them kick your feet out of those and swim out of the waders. But the this is a different deal altogether because you have tied yourself into the waiters. So without a waiting belt, that's a bad situation. And I saw a guy go down like that when I was guiding, and, he just thought he could walk across the river, and it got deeper and deeper. And then he kinda thought, well, I guess he was thinking, well, I'm already over this far. It's surely, it's gonna get shallower very soon, and he could walk across. It was just a little side channel. But I'm making lunch for the clients, and I'm like, oh, man. This guy's going down. And sure enough, he went down. And, he did not have a waiting belt on, and he got tumbled in the current. And, luckily, I saw him and did what that my outfitter that taught me how to guide was like, you always keep your people upstream. So, like, if you're making lunch down here, you tell them to go upstream, not downstream. Because if they're downstream from you, they get they fall and they get swept down current. There's not a lot you can do. But this one, I watched him. He was way upstream, and I had made a beeline for him and, like, actually jumped off the bank and ran over there and swam some and picked him up. And, he would he had the fear of God in his eyes. He thought he was down because the waders are getting full of water, and they're pulling you down. So that wading belt, man, good move there, but you've always got some kind of story where you're getting wet or cold or something.

Brendan Smith: And then so the end of that story is I ended up going up and fishing and caught a nice brown, which is just such a big relief. And, I ended up catching a cutthroat in a stream that they're almost never

Tom Rowland: Wow. Never catch a heard a lot about that, the cutthroat in these different places that people haven't found them before. I don't know what that deal

Turner Rowland: Is. I caught a I caught a cutthroat on the Madison years ago, I think.

Tom Rowland: That's that's not a place that I know that they live. I mean, that seems like a oddity. But, you know, somebody probably does.

Turner Rowland: Yeah. I think they're doing a lot of restorations on the, like, tributaries.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Turner Rowland: That kinda go in the mountains, and I guess they kinda make their way down.

Tom Rowland: I'm always a fan of the cutthroat. I like the cutthroat. It's the jack crevalle of the trout. It is. I mean, they really like to bite things. They and they make a good day. I mean, that's all we had in the South Fork Of The Snake River. It was mostly I mean, it wasn't all that was in there. There were rainbows and browns too. But when I was guiding on the South Fork Of The Snake River, it was 99.9% cutthroats, and they were all 17 and a half inches long because the slot was 17. And no. It was the slot was 18. So you could keep a fish over 18 inches. So they all these fish were 17 and a half to seventeen and three quarter inches long. And once they got to 18, the Idaho boys liked to take a few home. And but, anyway, I love the I love the cutthroat. They eat every kind of they eat every kind of fly. So, Brendan, you got a you got what's your plans for now? What do you head what's ahead in your immediate future? So I am next semester, I am off to New Zealand. And so is this a, a school type trip, or are you just going, or what's going on?

Heading to New Zealand

Brendan Smith: I'm, studying abroad at the University of Otago in Dunedin. Wow. And it's gonna be amazing.

Tom Rowland: Do they have computers there?

Brendan Smith: They do. They do. I actually talked to a fishing guide over the phone, for forty five minutes. He get great guy. I believe his name is Casey. And he told me about computer science program. Both of his, sons are studying computer science and gave me the details about the fishing in Dunedin compared to Christchurch, and that's kinda where the two places I was trying to decide between.

Tom Rowland: So there were multiple universities as you could choose from In this program? And this program is through Montana State? It's actually through CIS abroad. Okay.

Brendan Smith: And, it was not on the list of the Montana State, schools, but Montana State did accept it.

Tom Rowland: So is this the kinda deal, I remember looking into something like this before, and you pay Montana State tuition. You pay tuition to Montana State. And so whatever that tuition costs, then now you go on this program. Is that how it works?

Brendan Smith: So, traditionally, that is how it works. But through this program in particular, I pay them. And then my, credits, I just have to get them approved, and they'll they'll all transfer approved before or after

Tom Rowland: You take the classes? Before you take the classes. That's a good move. What do you mean nothing transfers? Oh, well. I had a good time. So, do you have any idea what your schedule is gonna be like?

Brendan Smith: So I'm planning to take kinda the minimum amount of classes, and I'm hoping to just be able to get out in the forest there as much as I can and explore New Zealand and kinda just give myself free time to do all these things that

Tom Rowland: I have all of them. That you talked to, did he seem to be encouraging that there is plenty of public water and plenty of opportunity for you to go and find places to fish? Because, I mean, I don't know anything about it other than my super rich clients take helicopters everywhere. So I'm just kinda wondering, as a student, what does that look like for you fishing down there?

Brendan Smith: Yeah. So he said there's a fly fishing club that he encouraged me to join, and he said there's a ton of streams and tributaries around the area. The city itself is right on the ocean, so there's a lot of feeder creeks and stuff that run-in there from the mountains.

Tom Rowland: And do these do they have sea run fish? I believe so.

Brendan Smith: But, a lot of

Tom Rowland: See, I've never heard about that in New Zealand. That would be Mhmm. You get those giant brown trout that they have there anyway, and then they go to the ocean for Six months and eat shrimp, and then they come back in there like a tank. Yeah.

Brendan Smith: It looks or

Turner Rowland: Indeed or something.

Brendan Smith: Yeah. I would imagine it's just like that. See around Browns.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm. And I never hear anybody talk about it in New Zealand. Maybe it's the you can take a spay rod with you?

Brendan Smith: I don't have one right now, but, man, it's someone I could look into.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. God. That sounds like an amazing trip. So are there things that university specializes in that like, types of classes that you don't have an opportunity to take here, or is this mostly, I'm going fishing?

Brendan Smith: It's it's a combination of both, I'd say. And I plan on taking a cultural class about the Kiwi and Maori culture there, which will be super interesting. And I also plan on taking a photography class, some I've also been pretty interested in, and what better place to

Tom Rowland: No kidding.

Brendan Smith: Explore that than there. So and then I also plan to take, a music class, which we,

Tom Rowland: I'm not gonna be

Brendan Smith: That's not the

Tom Rowland: That's not the bare minimum you could take. That sounds like at least twelve hours.

Brendan Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in order to keep my scholarship at Montana State, I have to do that. So

Tom Rowland: Wow. So what kind of grades have you been getting in, computer science classes? Have is that proven to be very difficult? Like, sounds hard to me. So, a lot of

Brendan Smith: Them are super hard. I've been able to maintain a good GPA, but I've kinda transitioned my mindset more recently to not care as much about the grade and care more about the knowledge I'm receiving. And that has been a tremendous turning point in my academic career because, really, it's just much more of a joyful experience you're focusing on, hey. What do I wanna learn and what do I wanna get out of this class rather than what grade do I need to make? Right. That really just that mind shift, and mindset really is just beneficial to the soul and just beneficial, for your learning experience and is really

Tom Rowland: When you make a shift like that, is the end result that you actually make better grades? Or you know how, like, sometimes, like, they're talking about athletic performance, and it's like, you'll see a team play its very best when it's up by a lot of points, and it has there's no pressure. And they're fluid and loose and playing great where you have the you know, when you have intense pressure, like, they don't wanna make a mistake. When you're up, you don't care if you make a mistake. I mean, you don't want to, but it's you're way more free. Like, you're a wrestler that's up by a bunch of points, he's gonna probably end up pinning the guy where he's not afraid to take a risk. And it sounds like maybe that could possibly be something that you're experiencing. Like, when you decide I'm going to consciously shift over to learning more rather than playing this game of school and learning what I need to learn to make a on the test rather than learning what I'm very interested in, Like, it seems like almost I don't know. I was kinda wondering if it ended up that maybe you're free or looser and you end up making better grades than you were doing before when you were afraid to take any risks.

Learning for Knowledge, Not Grades

Brendan Smith: Yeah. I'd say I am making, a little bit better grades than I am I have before. And a story that goes along with what you're saying is I was working on this AI project with, my partner, and we had to submit it at, eleven or at midnight. We submitted at 11:30, and he looked at me in the library, and he said, do you wanna take the unstuck in time approach on this with me? I was like, what are you talking about? He said, have you ever read the book Slaughterhouse Five? And I hadn't. He said, well, why should learning stop at a deadline? And it just that blew my mind. Wow. It's really, and it's so true. Why should it? And so we ended up working on this project that was already due. We had already submitted it, and we stayed in the library till 2AM, and we had the best time and learned I learned more from that experience. Like you said, no pressure. Just being able to truly dive into what you wanna learn and wanna the knowledge you wanna gain, and it was a tremendous experience for me.

Tom Rowland: That's super cool. And did you go back to your professor later and be like, yeah. That one we submitted at 11:30, well, turns out it kinda sucked. And I'd really like to put this because we've been working on this other thing all night, and it turns out everything we did was wrong.

Brendan Smith: So we ended up, the algorithm we were working on ended up not we didn't get to work by the end of the night. But, my partner said he's done that a lot and submitted projects after the deadline, and almost 90% of the time, the teachers still take them because they're so thrilled because the student actually cares about the knowledge.

Tom Rowland: Well, I mean, that's like that's the whole it seems like that would be the greatest reward for a teacher. Like Wow. You guys sat in the library for another six hours after the deadline because you wanted to? Like, okay. These are my student. I mean, these are the guys that are gonna take this knowledge and actually do something with it. I mean, I don't know. There has to be there has to be some kind of a line that they have to hold. Like, there's a deadline, and everybody else submitted it by then, but maybe there's some extra points or something that you could throw in there. But that would has to be you know, if a teacher is like, well, my teaching has interested these guys enough that they're willing to put in all this extra work, that's that would have to be very rewarding whether they could give you credit for it or not. Mhmm. Seems like that would be pretty cool. Well, man, that New Zealand trip sounds amazing. I'm wondering if you're gonna come back. Turner, what do you think? You think he's coming back?

Turner Rowland: Oh, probably not. Give me some Kiwi chick down there, man. Just stay.

Brendan Smith: Who knows?

Tom Rowland: Do you think if you meet that one that Turner showed me on Instagram? She was like, miss New Zealand.

Turner Rowland: Yeah. Miss New Zealand, miss Australia, something like that.

Tom Rowland: I don't think you're supposed to get an Australian and New Zealand people look confused.

Turner Rowland: They don't like each other?

Tom Rowland: I think it's like Alabama, Auburn. I don't know if they like don't like each other. I just think that it's two countries that are like Canada and The United States. Like,

Turner Rowland: I don't know. I don't know.

Tom Rowland: You're from Minnesota. Right? And he's like, no. Canada. Like, oh.

Turner Rowland: I don't know. I don't know, man. Australia and New Zealand, don't seem pretty cool, but New Zealand has trout. Australia's got trout. Man. You went down to around that Barrier Reef area and Man. Cut few world records, didn't you?

Fishing Australia and Christmas Island

Tom Rowland: I tell you. Well, yeah. That's where I caught my first world record ever, queenfish.

Turner Rowland: It got pulled in by that groper.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's somewhere Where

Turner Rowland: Hayden made that

Tom Rowland: Somewhere hidden deep on the Internet. You could find me getting pulled in by Queensland groper. Literally yanked in the water, as I was hand feeding these things that look like, goliath grouper. It they are they're they're the Australian version of the goliath grouper, and they're just as big. And I was feeding them these fish that and I had a really good grip on the tail of this one. And this fish came out from under the bottom of the boat, and next thing I know, I was in the water. And, it's it's on the Internet. Somebody can find it. But it's pretty funny. Anyway, so I went to Australia, my one and only time to go to Australia, and pretty much landed Sydney, then flew to Cairns, and had a few days to spend in Cairns by myself. And pretty much almost immediately, I was kinda like, I could live here. This place is awesome. There's only a few places there's a few places in the world that I've gotten that type of feeling. Like, I don't know what it is about this area, but particularly Yellowstone National Park gives me this feeling of I don't know. I don't I don't even really know how to explain it. Like, I'm supposed to be there, also, like, a feeling of peace and also, like, a feeling of power. And I felt it also in Hawaii, and I felt it in Australia. And, certainly, when I go to The Keys, I feel it there. But I don't know. It's it's weird when you go to a place that you've never been before, and it almost feels like slipping on a pair of your most comfortable jeans. And you're just like, wow. This place is amazing. I mean, the people were awesome. The what surprised me was that how similar that part of Australia was to Florida. And it's almost like Florida turned upside down. And so the further north you go, the closer to the Equator you're getting. So the further north you go in Australia, the warmer it's getting, all the way to the peninsula, which is just like Florida and, eventually, the Florida Keys that hangs off the north, and they call it the Carpentaria Peninsula, and then there's the Bay Of Carpentaria. And that's where we fished up there. But from Cairns to there was kinda like driving from Orlando to The Keys in the way that the vegetation changed. And then as you went further, you got closer to the mangroves, and then it's full on mangroves. And then, basically, you would see all of this vegetation there that was eerily similar to what we have in The Keys, but slightly different. And I also found that The Keys, I mean, that the fish we were fishing for there, it was the same kind of thing. It was like they had permit, but they were a little different. They had tarpon, but they weren't tarpon. They were this oxeye herring, and they didn't get as big, but they looked and acted just like tarpon. They didn't get they didn't get as big. And then we had, barramundi, which were incredibly like snook. And then there were, like, all these jack species, and then there was this queen fish, which looked exactly like our leather jacket, which you're very familiar with because it put three it Turner got poked by a leather jacket when he

Turner Rowland: Was I got smacked.

Tom Rowland: He was a very young boy, and it seems as it's very traumatic to him right now, but it did. They have these three dorsal fin spines, and I'll never forget this. Like, somebody, Hayden or somebody pulls in this little yellow jack, which doesn't get more than a foot long in the keys, but it has these three nasty spines that stick forward like this. And when they're when they're in Stressful situations. Stressful situations, they poke them out like this. So this thing comes flying over and hits Turner right in the leg. And, you know, he was so young. I remember this so well. You were so young that there were literally like, as a parent, you knew every little boo that you had ever had on your whole body. Like and there were these three dots on his leg, and his body was, like, perfect. There were no he had not been cut, not very many bug bites, not very many, like, not very many bruises, not very many skinned knees yet. I mean, he was really young. Right? And you like, you as a parent, you're just holding this perfect baby, and you're changing the diaper and everything, and you just it's just perfect. And then it grows up to somebody that can walk around and still hasn't really fallen down and skinned the knee yet. And so I just remember these three dots that this thing left on you. For years, they were there. And it was like, there's where the leather jacket hitting right in the leg. So, anyway, this leather jacket has a cousin in, in Australia that's called the Queenfish, and you might get a chance to I'm sure they have them in New Zealand too. They're very common like jack crevalle. And that was the first world record that I ever caught and also the first world record that Dottie Ballentine ever caught that went on to get over a 100 world records. And it was this experience of this Australian, fishing trip, which was just it's just the most awesome place. And I bet that you're gonna go to New Zealand and feel the same thing. Like, wow. I could live here. In fact, I'm going to.

Turner Rowland: That's cool, man. That queenfish is a cool fish. I got to catch one of those, when we're over

Tom Rowland: In Christmas time. Yeah. That was a that I didn't

Turner Rowland: Think Right after I broke off that big bonefish, man.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That was something that I didn't I didn't know I didn't know Queenfish lived in Christmas Island, because the first trip that I've been there twice, once with you and once on another trip. We didn't catch any other species but bonefish and trevally the first time I went there. And then when we went there, we took all kinds of stuff. The first time, yeah.

Turner Rowland: How many did you catch? Well because we had a hard time catching a trevally, man.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So there's catching a trevally, and then there's catching the one that you wanna catch, which is, like, the 60 pounder that is just the giant trevally, the big we had a couple shots, and there's black as that backpack over white sand, and there's giant, and I have never done that.

Turner Rowland: Hayden got one to eat, didn't he? I think he got one. I'm I might be it might have been someone else in the in that camp. Yeah. But maybe someone got a real big one to eat and didn't

Tom Rowland: Touch it. Yeah. And even on that trip, I caught some smaller ones. You know? Some that are, like, you know, small jack crevalles and horsehide jacks and stuff like that. And fine. Nice. But it wasn't the one we were after. I saw way more the first time. But the first time that I went there, I got to fish with one of the most, famous guides from Christmas Island that we didn't get a chance to meet or fish with this time, and it's Moana. And Moana, that's his specialty. Big, GTs. And he has a he has a the first time that we went there, he had a boat and very few of the guides, if any I think he might have been the only one that had his own personal boat, and it was a small, little, crazy looking little boat. It was made by Hobie. I remember that. And it had twin, like, 10 horsepower motors on it. Twin motors. Yeah.

Turner Rowland: 10 horsepower?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Twin tens. And it was just or maybe they could

Turner Rowland: Have been twin around the flat, man.

Tom Rowland: It could have been twin 20 fives, but, I mean, small motors, twins, and this little kinda molded boat that was Hobie. But I'll I'll tell you what, man. He could take that thing into places that nobody else could go, and he was extremely successful at catching those fish. And, it was really cool. We didn't have that same opportunity in Christmas Island this year, but we did have some amazing

Turner Rowland: We did. We did. We got in that one flat that was ankle deep, and we looked over and, hundreds of bonefish tailing.

Brendan Smith: Yeah.

Turner Rowland: That was cool.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, the thing I mean, I'd like to go to Christmas Island again, because there's I mean, I'm sure that there are countless other places in the world like this. I don't know where they are. This is the only place that I know in the world that you can literally walk 15 miles and stay in Bonefish all day. We did it. We didn't want 15, but we walked all day.

Turner Rowland: Well, who double digits?

Tom Rowland: It was all day, and we started out in ankle deep water and just basically walked as the tide came in, we just kinda walked on the, you know, a little higher on the flat and stayed in the same depth of water where we were with this wave of bonefish that was trying to get on the highest part of

Brendan Smith: The flat. You could just like Christmas.

Tom Rowland: Oh my god. It was incredible. You could just walk this as far as you want. And there were the first time I ever went there, and I believe that it was there this time, but there was a map. You could see where you could connect this big flat to this flat over here, and then you could walk over here, and then you connect this flat to this flat. So the boat could drop you off here and go around, and you could actually walk the interior of this island if you knew what you were doing, and you could kind of stay in the shallow water. You could just walk it forever, and I don't I don't know. I love fishing out of a boat, but there is nothing like the feeling of just getting out there with a backpack and just walking.

Why Flats Fishing Feels Like Hunting

Turner Rowland: Man, it's similar to hunting. Yeah. It's very similar to hunting. It's so similar to, I mean, probably mule deer hunting. You know? Because you're you're you're just looking at them, and you're just walking along waiting to see one. And then you finally see it, and you gotta be careful about how loud you are. You gotta be careful about your profile. You gotta make a good cast. It's, I mean, it's the closest thing to hunting that I've done. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I know. And I think there's a big draw there's a big draw to flats fishing from hunters. I mean, I see a lot of people that I fish with are avid hunters, and there is the same feelings get stirred up. Like, you know, I hope he doesn't see me. Yeah. I can't move. And then, like and then there is the there is certainly just like archery hunting or whatever, you are in this position of being full draw, and you're gonna pull that trigger, and that's going to be it. And you're you're making that cast, and you're gonna make you're gonna let it go. You're gonna let it fly, and it is gonna land, hopefully, in front of the fish, not on them. And if it does, you know, maybe there's a 100 of them there sometimes, and it's this giant explosion. And it literally, a giant explosion. When they when you scare the one, you scare them all. And, you know, same kind of thing. It's like it's like, is now the time to let it go? Is now the time to let it go? You know, just even when you're shooting targets with archery, it's like, okay. You know, is everything lined up? Am I doing everything, like, you know, in a zen type way that is exactly like the last time I shot so that this one is going exactly where I want it to go? Or, you know, is my draw hand, you know, not in exactly the right place, or am I uncomfortable, or I've been holding this too long, or, you know, what is it? And I get that same feeling from, you know, a fly cast and then, you know, at the time of is this one the time to let it go? And then maybe now they come you don't let it go, and now they come a little too close, and now you've messed it all up. But, I mean, I love that I love that, situation.

Sight Fishing New Zealand

Brendan Smith: I talked to this girl, Taylor Short, who worked at a fishing lodge in New Zealand. Yeah. And she's given me some great advice, and she was explaining the difference between fishing in Montana and Idaho and the West, Western United States, to New Zealand. And she said it's completely different ballgame out there. You have to you're mostly sight fishing. Almost 9095% of the time, you're sight fishing, and you're probably not gonna catch one if you don't see one. And so you're hiking along these beautiful in this jungle y region with this pristine colored water, and you're you're searching for these fish. And once you finally see one, you better get ready because it's about to be on. Your heart starts pumping, and you have to sneak up to them, hope you're wearing some type of camouflage clothing. And she said even if you knock a pebble in the water, they're gone. If you line them, they're gone.

Tom Rowland: I can imagine, man. Those things, it's been explained to me very similar like that on the long days when we're not catching anything on the flats. And my people that go to Argentina or go to New Zealand, they tell me about their trip because there's nothing else to do because we're not catching any fish. But I it has been explained to me like that, that you go until you find a fish, and then you fish for it. But my that's my favorite type of trout fishing. I mean, I you know, you drift in a hopper down the bank, you know, while you're in a drift boat, it's pretty nice and everything. But my favorite place ever to fish is, is Flat Creek in the National Elk Refuge in right outside of Jackson. And that's what you do there. I mean, you're gonna have almost no success just standing up, walking down through there, throwing flies out into that river. But if you, you know, watch this long 200 yard stretch and you don't it's not immediate. You might watch it for fifteen minutes, and then all of a sudden you see this head come out from under the bank and then go back in. And then you sneak up there on your hands and knees and then set up for what you think is going to be the best cast and then just start working your through the flies in your box. And then sometimes you go through, basically, every fly in your box and come back to the first one. I mean, that's my favorite kind of fishing. It wasn't Hayden's favorite kind of fishing. Hey.

Turner Rowland: That poor kid.

Tom Rowland: Well, I think he would have liked it then, but I took Hayden to the South to the Flat Creek. And, On the worst day. No. I mean, it depends on how you look at it. I thought it was the best day.

Turner Rowland: Well, for I don't think he really grasped what was going on. All he knew is that he was cold and wet, and I don't think he was catching any fish.

Tom Rowland: No. No. No. No. We hadn't even started trying to catch fish yet. We were still looking for them. And, and then a giant hailstorm came through. Right? A summer Wyoming hailstorm where it starts to rain, and then you're like, ow. Wow. What was that? And then here comes oh, oh, oh, oh, shit. And then it's like golf balls flying out of the out of the well, not quite golf balls, more like marbles. Mhmm. And, man, they were just pelting the crap out of us. And I think I had a cowboy hat on, which was doing it was like a hard hat compared to Hayden who had, like, a baseball cap on, and he got he didn't like it. Man, I got caught. He would like it now, but he didn't like it then.

Brendan Smith: I got caught six times this summer in fishing well. It was hailing, and I caught a few while I was hailing. It was Really?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's a good way to break a rata.

Brendan Smith: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I mean, you're going still fun. Fast through there. Yeah. The marbles are falling from the sky.

Brendan Smith: Was huddling up in some trees.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's crazy, though, in summertime when you look down at the bottom of your boat, and it's all full of ice. That's when you know it's been a good one.

Brendan Smith: There's some there's just some big dipping dots.

Bucking the Trend

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's like, but I don't know, man. I gotta say, boys, you guys, very proud of both of you. I mean, you really have bucked the trend. You did something completely different. And, you know, it's just as a parent, and I'm not your parent, Brendan, but you've been hanging around my house, what, since eighth grade or something. I don't know, man. Just to see you guys doing what you wanna do and doing something that really, really makes you happy. And not only that, but excelling at it and then working super hard in school or working super hard at your work as an elk guide, like, that's incredibly rewarding. It is incredibly rewarding and just I mean, really, I don't know how anybody could ask for anything more. I mean, you're you're you're offering a positive contribution to society. You're not a burden. You're you're doing exactly what you want. You're super positive. You're smiling all the time. I mean, that is, I don't honestly, I don't know how anybody could ask for anything more, and it is really nice to see that, you know, this is not the end. Like, now you're jumping off to New Zealand and going for more adventures, and you're signing up for more elk hunting and all kinds of other things. And you were telling me all of the stuff you wanna hunt. I mean, I just think it's I got plans. I just think it's I just think it's so awesome. And congratulations to you both for, for making it happen because, you know, there's a lot there's a big difference between just sitting around wishing, looking at that painting over your bed, thinking that is that's the life. That's the life. That's the life. And there's really a big difference between doing that and then really deciding, you know what? I don't really care if anybody else is going. That's what I wanna do, and that's what I'm going to do. And, you know, right or wrong, I might not like it, but I'm doing it. You know? And chances are, if you feel that strongly about something, you probably are gonna like it a lot. But it's it's really cool, man, to see you guys and to see this friendship that you have to continue because, you know, it's been told to me before that if you can go through life with one friend that you've had for, you know, most of your life, that's you're you're really, really, really lucky. And you guys are you're on that path. I mean, you guys have been friends for long time, and you got so many more adventures to go, but it's just it's just cool to see it, man. Kudos.

Turner Rowland: That's that's cool, man. Thank you.

Brendan Smith: Yeah. Appreciate

Turner Rowland: It. Man, there are a lot of times where, you kinda just look around and be like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I know. You're welcome to my life.

Turner Rowland: You're out in the middle. You know, I took my first client. I got lost. Horribly, terribly lost. And I was kinda looking around being like, man, like, shabby out here. Well,

Tom Rowland: Here, I was gonna find that, quote that,

Turner Rowland: Was that the one you posted on your, Instagram about the corner?

Tom Rowland: No. I don't I don't think I posted this one, but it's one of my favorite quotes. And you're, you know, you're you're talking about being out there and not knowing what you're doing, but you know what? I have a good quote.

Brendan Smith: What is it? What is it? Worry is just the misuse of imagination.

Tom Rowland: That one's good.

Turner Rowland: I like that. I like that. I don't know, man. I've been in a lot of situations where I've been really worried. And then, I don't know if it's a misuse of my imagination.

Brendan Smith: Sometimes, you know, you'd be worried, like, if you're out in the woods and

Turner Rowland: And you get lost. Yeah. And then you start seeing bear tracks. Yeah. And you're like, oh, man. Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: But a lot

Brendan Smith: You worry about never happen. So

Turner Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're right.

The Man in the Arena

Tom Rowland: Well so we'll end this we'll end this with this because, this is one of my favorites. It's one of the best ever. And it has a lot to do with what we're talking about, you know, you're you're out there. You're doing it. You may be making mistakes. You may be you may not know exactly what you're doing, but you're you're actually out there doing it. And it's president Theodore Roosevelt. It's not the critic who counts nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Turner Rowland: I like that.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I like it. It's one of the greatest quotes of all time, I think. It is. That's the,

Turner Rowland: Man in the arena.

Tom Rowland: The man in the arena. And, you boys are in the arena. You're doing it. And, you know, proud of you both. So we'll end it there.

Turner Rowland: Alright.

Brendan Smith: Thank you. Thanks for

Where to Find Them

Tom Rowland: Doing it. Fun. Alright, boys. Until next week. Oh, well, tell us, how do people find you?

Brendan Smith: Oh, well, I have no social media.

Tom Rowland: Alright. You're off the grid, man.

Brendan Smith: Off the grid. So if you wanna email me, email me at das9829@gmail.com. That sounds computer generated.

Tom Rowland: Then what if they wanna follow you?

Turner Rowland: Oh, I got Instagram. I think it's turn turnerrowland one, I think. Sage Peak Outfitters. Do you wanna book an elk hunt? We're pretty,

Tom Rowland: We could book for the next few years, but, we need to

Turner Rowland: Work something out. We're just hunting together. Okay.

Brendan Smith: And, I worked at the tackle shop on Madison River in Montana, last summer and it could be there, maybe next summer if I don't stay in New Zealand. So Jump

Tom Rowland: In and say hi. Yeah. Alright. We'll see you in Ennis.